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View Full Version : Is Fighting mass infantry IG a no win for Tau?



TheOneWithNoName
11-04-2009, 16:35
What are your thoughts on this? A friend of mine who plays Tau contends that fighting IG that masses infantry is as near as a no win situation for the Tau as they come. Our experience does show that it is a very tough fight for the Tau. For an example of my army, my IG list from the new codex had 126 infantry, 9 vehicles, 10 Autocannons, 11 Lascannons, 8 Multi-lasers, and 2 Heavy bolters. What is the best way to fight mass infantry IG for Tau?

shutupSHUTUP!!!
11-04-2009, 16:40
It does look like a tough fight. For a start, making sure there's enough LOS-blocking terrain to make good use of their light skimmers and jet packs seems like a straightforward way of making sure they stand a chance.

Ravenous
11-04-2009, 16:41
Nah if done right the tau can probably out gun the guard easy especially when mixed with marketlights. Dropping cover saves and throwing down rail gun submunitions will wreck up guard pretty good. Even outflanking Kroot wouldnt be a bad idea since the guard player will most likely be spread abroad.

Basically its all about the devil fishes and disruption pods, tank shock is a wonderful thing to packed guardsmen.

invinciblebug
11-04-2009, 16:47
Lots of fire warriors in devilfishes who isolate parts of the guard army and kill them systematically while making good use of cover. Hammerheads sit back in the deployment zone and snipe guard tanks.

The_Outsider
11-04-2009, 16:48
If tau have it hard be thankfull you aren't a DE player - DE will have a nightmare taking on such an army - even levelling out the playing field is going to be a job and a half.

Valkyrie114
11-04-2009, 17:00
It would be a tough fight- How many points is that guard army? Like others have said, It would be the best to have an entirely mounted army and destroy one section of guardsmen at a time (6 fishes unloading 60 warriors is going to put the pain on anything in the general vicinity.) Rail'heads a great, because both variants of the railgun either kill guardsmen or kill their tanks, so you can switch between the two depending on what the guard player has up his sleeve.

TheOneWithNoName
11-04-2009, 17:36
That Guard army was 2250 points. The worst unit they had to deal with was the Psyker battle squad, it caused 2 Crisis suit teams to run away. I also had 20 Ratlings to pin anything that got too close.

On the face of things I would agree and say 3 Hammerheads would be a good start, along with more LoS blocking terrain (my opponent choose the board and foolishly used no LoS blocking terrain, afraid that I would mass indirect ordnance).

Do remember that one of the new IG orders, Bring it down!, forces you to reroll cover saves, so Tau vehicles are easier to pop now.

For any interested parties, this was my list.

-=HQ=- = 300 Pts.

Company Command Squad - 185 Pts.
- Regimental Standard, Astropath, Camo Cloaks
Chimera

Company Command Squad - 115 Pts.
- Regimental Standard, Master of Ordnance, Camo Cloaks
-----

-=Elites=- = 365 Pts.

10 Ratling Snipers - 100 Pts.

10 Ratling Snipers - 100 Pts.

Psyker Battle Squad - 165 Pts.
- 9 Psykers
Chimera
-----

-=Troops=- = 1240 Pts.

Platoon A = 450 Pts.

Platoon Command Squad - 40 Pts.
- Autocannon

Infantry Squad - 120 Pts.
- Plasma Gun, Autocannon
Commissar w/ Power Weapon

Infantry Squad - 75 Pts.
- Plasma Gun, Autocannon

Infantry Squad - 75 Pts.
- Plasma Gun, Autocannon

Heavy Weapon Squads - 75 Pts.
- 3 Autocannons

Heavy Weapon Squads - 75 Pts.
- 3 Autocannons
-----

Platoon B = 420 Pts.

Platoon Command Squad - 40 Pts.
- Autocannon

Infantry Squad - 85 Pts.
- Plasma Gun, Lascannon

Infantry Squad - 85 Pts.
- Plasma Gun, Lascannon

Heavy Weapon Squads - 105 Pts.
- 3 Lascannons

Heavy Weapon Squads - 105 Pts.
- 3 Lascannons
-----

Platoon C = 360 Pts.

Platoon Command Squad - 120 Pts.
Captain Al'Rahem, Meltagun

Infantry Squad - 55 Pts.
Flamer

Infantry Squad - 55 Pts.
Flamer

Special Weapon Squad - 65 Pts.
3 Meltaguns

Special Weapon Squad - 65 Pts.
3 Meltaguns
-----

-=Fast Attack=- = 340 Pts.

Vendetta - 130 Pts.

3 Sentinels - 105 Pts.
Multi-Lasers

3 Sentinels - 105 Pts.
Multi-Lasers

SPYDER68
11-04-2009, 18:14
Outflank Kroot can make a rough day for trying to deploy that many guardsmen.

Ravenous
11-04-2009, 18:57
Lots of fire warriors in devilfishes who isolate parts of the guard army and kill them systematically while making good use of cover. Hammerheads sit back in the deployment zone and snipe guard tanks.

Not to mention because of ap1 guard tanks die on 5s on glances and 3s on pens if they are in squadrons.

Vaktathi
11-04-2009, 19:01
4 big squads of outflanking Kroot will eat an IG gunline alive, and are cheap as all hell.

Ravenous
11-04-2009, 19:08
Even stealth suits with targeting arrays will mess up guard bad, even in combat the tau will come out on top because of the better armour.

The Orange
11-04-2009, 19:22
I hope people realize that even if those sound like good suggestions their' also expensive. A decent mounted FW unit is 200+ pts, a unit of pathfinders is just as much. Targeting arrays on Stealth suits are so expensive that it's actually just better to buy more stealth suits (shooting outcome is the same between the 2 options but you get more bodies with only the later). I haven't seen the new IG dex but isn't the big thing about them is that they got cheaper? Outflanking kroot is maybe the best idea though, they are cheap and, I imagine, can make good on their hth prowess against guardsmen.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
11-04-2009, 19:29
Indeed, I feel a lot of theorycrafting is going on here.

invinciblebug
11-04-2009, 19:36
Do remember that one of the new IG orders, Bring it down!, forces you to reroll cover saves, so Tau vehicles are easier to pop now.


Not very important but Bring it down! is actually another order that twin link weapons when firing at monstrous creatures and vehicles, but yes there is a scary order that forces the enemy to re-roll cover saves.

Ravenous
11-04-2009, 19:43
Its the "on my target" or whatever it is is the one that makes you reroll successful cover saves

Havock
12-04-2009, 00:00
Nah if done right the tau can probably out gun the guard easy especially when mixed with marketlights. Dropping cover saves and throwing down rail gun submunitions will wreck up guard pretty good. Even outflanking Kroot wouldnt be a bad idea since the guard player will most likely be spread abroad.

Basically its all about the devil fishes and disruption pods, tank shock is a wonderful thing to packed guardsmen.

You don't outgun guard. You just... Don't.

Corax
12-04-2009, 04:44
I don't know much about Tau, and I haven't seen the last version of their Codex, but if I was in trying to kill Guard and CC wasn't an option, I'd immediately be looking for ways to drop as many templates on them as possible. Even though Kroot aren't all that great, I would have thought that they could duff up some Guard in CC.

onlainari
12-04-2009, 05:02
Massed IG infantry is rediculously easy to beat with ninja tau. It's the perfect matchup.

The Orange
12-04-2009, 06:18
I'd immediately be looking for ways to drop as many templates on them as possible.
IIRC
1. Hammerhead railgun submunition shots
2. XV-8's with flamers

Not really that many options to spam templates :(.

Steel Legion for Life
12-04-2009, 09:03
Bearing in mind that most of the anti-tank/threat to crisis suits in the army comes from lascannon support teams who are autokilled by submunitions, rocket pods, plasma rifles - you know, those weapons every Tau player has...

oh, sorry, and 6 man squads with 3 BS3 meltaguns outflanking. Scary.

As for Tau killing large squads, I'd say 90% of Tau players now mount at least one flamer on each crisis suit; it's 4 points, and mostly it's there "just in case" an Ork horde army turns up, but the principle of wanting templates for clearing stragglers off objectives late game equally applies to dealing with the couple of guard squads that make it across the board.

Bearing in mind the army has almost no mobility beyond the vendetta...in most missions, he'll have to run with about half that army every turn in order to contest objectives.

I'd say against most Tau armies I've played with multiple hammerheads and Crisis suits, that stodgy immobile guard army isn't going to fire many shots, get outmaneuvered, and lose game after game after game.

I'd go as far as to say most 1500pt Tau armies I see in the GT would beat that guard list, let alone whatever you can cram into 2.25 k in Tau.

Just for commentary on the Guard list, not sure you can take multiple ratling units, or multiple company HQs, or multiple regimental standards; don't have the new codex, but those have always been 0-1 before. Still, as you can have multiple demon princes/chapter masters, who knows.

Also, sentinels in large squadrons are appallingly vulnerable to Strength 4/5 shooting, in my experience, and die so fast they aren't usually worth taking in unit greater than one.

This is because the combination of open topped and death by immobilisation, combined with the normally (large) volume of S4/5 fire that even the most basic squad in most armies can generate, makes them take multiple hits each, with a 1/3 chance of dying from each glance.

Individual sentinels are paradoxically more survivable as they tend to be a waste of shooting for most units, in addition to the fact that death by immobilisation doesn't kill them.

RichBlake
12-04-2009, 09:07
Tau can massacre Guard, especially if they have plenty of Fire Warriors and Kroot.

Saying that the whole Cover Saves being everywhere aspect does favour Guard more then Tau on this, but still, Tau can start shooting from 36" away and then decimate easily twice as many guardsmen then they can kill of Tau just via shooting.

Stealth suits are especially annoying for guard as they require concetrated lasfire to kill but it's hard to get many units spotting them.

Corax
12-04-2009, 09:49
Not really that many options to spam templates :(.

What about the Skyray? Its got all those missiles on it. Surely some of them must make a pie plate?

shutupSHUTUP!!!
12-04-2009, 10:41
Saying that the whole Cover Saves being everywhere aspect does favour Guard more then Tau on this, but still, Tau can start shooting from 36" away and then decimate easily twice as many guardsmen then they can kill of Tau just via shooting.
It's generally marines and IG who set up more than 30" away and start hammering the Fire Warriors with heavy weapons. Against the list posted above (which contains almost no artillery) Fire Warriors might not be a bad idea though. However it's Imperial Guard who have the sheer range advantage when it comes to shooting (which lasguns barely count as). Against a properly constructed IG army a long-ranged brawl is not the way to go for Tau because it's where IG excel.

invinciblebug
12-04-2009, 10:48
..

oh, sorry, and 6 man squads with 3 BS3 meltaguns outflanking. Scary.



Worse yet, these outflanking 10 vets in a chimera with 3 bs 4 meltas.


What about the Skyray? Its got all those missiles on it. Surely some of them must make a pie plate?

Nope, 1 str 8 ap 3 hit each. No pie plates or templates or whatnot.

Bunnahabhain
12-04-2009, 11:49
The outflanking platoon is going to be the biggest problem all infantry guard present to most Tau lists.

The tau lists work as they're mobile, so can pick on a small part of the IG army, and destroy that part of it, and so avoid return fire.

With an outflanking platoon, you now have a cross-fire set up. That makes it so much harder to avoid having tau units being stuck in the open, and so taking alot of punishment. There are going to be more infantry than now, and they'll be more effective.

The guard list above isn't great.

Steel Legion for Life
12-04-2009, 13:44
I don't think the outflanking platoon would be that much trouble.

It's all on foot so it's difficult for a turn, then either outranged or dead.

As for 3 meltaguns in a chimera outflanking, if anyone can tell me how veterans can be part of el rahem's platoon and outflank, I'll buy them a Captain Al'rahem model made of Moon-rock.

It's possible to get regular/special weapon teams to outflank with him in chimeras, but I don't think veterans can outflank outside of a valkyrie/vendetta.

Colonial Rifle
12-04-2009, 15:24
Woah - as someone has said, so much theoryhammer on this page...

Take it from someone who has played both armies for several years now; at longer ranges, a well constructed and played Guard army will EAT Tau in a prolonged, long-range firefight. This was true under the underpowered old codex and will be even more so come May.

Tau longrange firepower is high quality, but low quantity. A 1500 pts list struggles to get more than 10 guns that can reach beyond 30" and most of these will be missilepods (poor man's autocannon). Guard can match that easily with autocannon and lascannons spam. Crisis suits have taken a big hit with TLOS - you struggle to hide them. They will suffer under a constant barrage of templates and low-AP shots, which you can't easily protect them from. Firewarriors will have to hope that cover is exactly 30" away from the guard gunline if they expect to live very long. Basically, Guard grind-out Tau at range.

Ironically, the Tau's best course of attack is to close within 18" and let their short range firepower do most of their work. I could see that working if you use Stealth + devilfish units.

Massed infiltrating Kroot *could* work, but it's a pretty tailored "trick" list. Better hope the Guard don't have an Astropath either....

Corax
12-04-2009, 18:19
Nope, 1 str 8 ap 3 hit each. No pie plates or templates or whatnot.

Wow. Must suck to be Tau, huh? :o

onlainari
12-04-2009, 18:22
They're a weak codex, their overall power level however is not that far from the top codecies. The game is fairly balanced and battlesuits are really good.

invinciblebug
12-04-2009, 18:40
Wow. Must suck to be Tau, huh? :o

They have skimmers with str 10 ap1 main weapons and they can buy 4+ cover save for 5pts so no.

rintinglen
12-04-2009, 18:41
Tau suffer badly in two areas--CC and Psywars. They have no real effective answer to warp based attacks and they (usually) get whipped in hand to hand by Boy Scouts with rubber knifes (though not by my terminators for some reason). They also are very dependent on Jump-Shoot-Jump tactics for their Crisis Suits to make back their points. That said, about three hits from the str 6 ap 4 templates and half the anti armor of the above IG army is gone. Two turns of shooting from 44 fire warriors will put a pretty good dent in the rest of the troops. Especially if they get within rapid fire range. However, if the IG gets first turn, things get truly ugly fast unless there is an unholy amount of cover available.

TheOneWithNoName
12-04-2009, 18:43
Just for commentary on the Guard list, not sure you can take multiple ratling units, or multiple company HQs, or multiple regimental standards; don't have the new codex, but those have always been 0-1 before. Still, as you can have multiple demon princes/chapter masters, who knows.

This is legal in the new IG codex.



Massed IG infantry is rediculously easy to beat with ninja tau. It's the perfect matchup.

If this involves hiding your army in reserves all game, well that's not a game it's a waste of time for you and your opponent.

I see that a lot of things listed here my opponent never or rarely tries doing. Mostly hunkers down and tries charging with 8 Crisis Suits.

Hlokk
12-04-2009, 19:17
As for 3 meltaguns in a chimera outflanking, if anyone can tell me how veterans can be part of el rahem's platoon and outflank, I'll buy them a Captain Al'rahem model made of Moon-rock.
If I write it in biro in the codex, does that count? :p

Pieplate chucking hammerheads would seem to be the order of the day, Rip 3 big holes in his gunlines per turn is going to do damage quickly, especially if you concentrate fire, it could open up a hole in the line to exploit.