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moose
11-04-2009, 23:30
I was playing a 2k match vs a wood elf dark elf alliance today.

I normally don't mind unpainted armies or one or two proxies, but was slightly cheesed off today. I didn't say anything but was annoyed, how would you react to:

A single warrior acting as a bolt thrower + crew.
10 gladeguard being used as waywatchers, as well as 10 normal gladeguard scouting (confusing?).
A dark elf assassin being used as war dancer highborn, as well as another assassin being used as shadowblade (confusing?).
A 40k chaos tzeentch sorcerer as a dark elf soceress.
Glade riders being used as wild riders (not so bad).
A dark elf cold one knight, not on cold one, being used as another dark elf sorceress.
15 Eternal guard being used as wardancers.
Everything unpainted, unprimed and unbased.

Would you grin and bear it like I did as you try to remember what's where, or get cheesed off as your army is fully painted, based, and a proper list?

(P.s. I won :) )

Moose.

bob_the_small
11-04-2009, 23:42
I would just say, NO, I am not playing this collaboration of armies, (I'm not surprised you won, how old were these people? 12?)

Peregijn
11-04-2009, 23:45
sounds like the good old times for me... i used to do that when i startet
but i wouldnt do that anymore (wel 1 unit mabe)
grats on your fictory

only joking...
11-04-2009, 23:47
Unless these people were on the breadline or something i would be pretty pissed, it just shows a lack of effort and respect for the other gamer.

Giant Fossil Penguin
11-04-2009, 23:48
If your opponent told you what was what before you started, and was open and honest about what was what during play (I think using the same models to represent multiple different units could be rather confusing unless their owner made a real effort to keep it clear), then there's no probs.
There could be a lot of reasons for proxying like this, even for multiple games. But, really, what was wrong? The game still plays the same, the army functions just lie any other WE army. As long you are both having a good time and following the rules (be they from the BRB or ones you have made up yourselves for a special scenario) does it really matter what anyone is pushing around the tabletop?
I feel that this game only functions as well as the people playing it. The most beautiful army can be a chore to play if the general is an ****. My $46.89

GFP

WarlockOMork
11-04-2009, 23:57
i dont mind a few proxies, or counts as crap, but this is just to much even for me.
if its a friendly game, i'd complain a bit. mock him/her a bit, and then continue to try and win, er.. i mean have fun :p

but request things get counters or such so i can actualy remember whats what.

TeddyC
12-04-2009, 00:03
id give them the one chance, next time I played them Id be saying 'i want at least one of these units properly represented or at least painted.

Bac5665
12-04-2009, 00:53
I wouldn't have played them, but only because of the allied army thing.

I have no problem with people playing with what ever models they have. All that matters to me is base size. If the bases are there (or if the few things off are in a unit so it doesn't matter, or are warmachines or whatnot) than its fine. I've never understood how its disrespectful to someone to want to use proxies for a game. It's like asking a chess player to hand craft a chess set or else they're not trying hard enough.

Warhammer is a game. There is a hobby around it, but at it's heart, its just a game like any other. People can and should be able to play that hobby without devoting time to the hobby as a whole, just like I should be able to play a game of touch football with out having to train, and work out and follow all the in's and out's of the game. Wanting to play the game without wanting to devote my time to the hobby should be a hobby, and I find it snobbish to call such an attitude disrespectful.

The Anarchist
12-04-2009, 01:00
i use the rule that counts as is fine providing its not overly complicated, that lsit however is very complicated to remember. i would probably not have played the gamer, however if its a friend jsut checking weather they like an army then might be alright.

theunwantedbeing
12-04-2009, 01:05
Proxying things on totally the wrong size base, or no base....just isnt on.
It upsets how the game is played.

One time my opponent decided to turn up with a heap of proxies that were as terrible as the above. I then told him he wasnt going to be using those models and went and had a look through all the models I owned for better proxies and made him use those.
This was at my house but I'de of done the same at a store.

I've seen worse armies used than the OP posted in 40k games.
Had I a 40k army I'de of demmanded that he not use any incomplete models and WYSIWYG would be how we would be playing. Models missing equiptment bought as upgrades would not be allowed those upgrades.
Paper, a pen and a calculator would have then been provided by me to allow him to quickly create his list as best he can.

The game is a game, and a hobby and the two can be pretty seperate entities.
But a line has to be drawn somewhere.
I'm not going to refuse a game, they made the effort to at least turn up.

I wont say "you cannot use that" so flatly though, it'll be more along the lines of "oh come on, thats a rediculous proxy and you know it, at least use something resembling the correct model! I will help."

Dr.Mercury
12-04-2009, 01:06
A single warrior acting as a bolt thrower + crew.HELL NO!
10 gladeguard being used as waywatchers, as well as 10 normal gladeguard scouting (confusing?).One or the other, not both.
A dark elf assassin being used as war dancer highborn, as well as another assassin being used as shadowblade (confusing?).I would not have too much or a problem with this.
A 40k chaos tzeentch sorcerer as a dark elf soceress.This is pushing it
Glade riders being used as wild riders (not so bad).I would prefer they be converted at least.
A dark elf cold one knight, not on cold one, being used as another dark elf sorceress.Pushing it one again
15 Eternal guard being used as wardancers.NO
Everything unpainted, unprimed and unbased.
Not that big a deal for me.


Personally, after a few minutes of that game, I would probably concede, and scoop my models out of sheer frustration!

I may proxy a SIMILAR model here or there, but what he/they did is a bit ridiculous.

Horus38
12-04-2009, 01:14
Counts as is ok in certain situations, and especially for beginners. But that is just ridiculous, and no, I would not play against it.

Orcboy_Phil
12-04-2009, 01:18
Not a problem for me. I don't actually care about the model representation, and I ain't a painter none of my armys are painted so I don't insist on it for anyone else. As long as he/she/it/they don't more than the regulation charecters I don't mind about the team up. However if it was a dwarf army I'd have a problem, this is because of the extra dispell dice which when backed up with the other armies wizards makes for a frustrating game.

Nicha11
12-04-2009, 01:20
I really need to know more before i can make a judgement.

How old/wealthy/polite were your opponents?

How long had they been in the hobby?

I assume this was a pick up game, correct?

Were they looking for a game or did they play with whatever they had at hand?

Godgolden
12-04-2009, 01:33
i wouldnt play a random guy, but a friend proxing a army he intends to buy sure, or even just to change it up.

its a crap exonomy, people cant affod the million pounds worth fo GW gear to play anymore.

Stuffburger
12-04-2009, 02:00
I would ask for small stand up cardboard name tags in front of everything to keep it all straight, other than that... well, I would get annoyed after a few games.

Talonz
12-04-2009, 02:20
That is way too much, and too confusing, with not even an attempt to base/number the models correctly.

I can see proxiing back ranks, or 1 or 2 units of similar models, or 1 or 2 war machines with an approprieate base and crew, but that is just way too much and way too hard to track things.

Especially in 2 armies!

505
12-04-2009, 05:24
I suppose if he really wanted to try it out and had a notecard next to everything saying what it was I wouldnt mind...but that is a bit of a streatch

Urgat
12-04-2009, 09:29
I was playing a 2k match vs a wood elf dark elf alliance today.

I normally don't mind unpainted armies or one or two proxies, but was slightly cheesed off today. I didn't say anything but was annoyed, how would you react to:

A single warrior acting as a bolt thrower + crew.
10 gladeguard being used as waywatchers, as well as 10 normal gladeguard scouting (confusing?).
A dark elf assassin being used as war dancer highborn, as well as another assassin being used as shadowblade (confusing?).
A 40k chaos tzeentch sorcerer as a dark elf soceress.
Glade riders being used as wild riders (not so bad).
A dark elf cold one knight, not on cold one, being used as another dark elf sorceress.
15 Eternal guard being used as wardancers.
Everything unpainted, unprimed and unbased.

Would you grin and bear it like I did as you try to remember what's where, or get cheesed off as your army is fully painted, based, and a proper list?

(P.s. I won :) )

Moose.

Edpends: if he's a new player proxying to try out troops, I would, no problem. If it's just a lazy ass who's done it for years, no, probably not.

Sidorio
12-04-2009, 09:35
I still end up proxying for half of my games if I'm trying new armies. Though I generally try to keep it as uniform as possible for the oponent to avoid confusion. Because I'm such an offender I generally don't mind but that's just plain confusing.

pililuk
12-04-2009, 09:42
ile admit i proxy alot but only in friendly games with people i know, this is just cause ive started a o+G army recently so just proxy things like marauders as orcs and dark elf warriors as common goblins everything else in my army is WYSIWYG, ive even before used a weak army in a competetive game rather than do any proxying (night gob army with no fanatics or warmachines)

Braad
12-04-2009, 10:08
If someone has come up with some very cool fluff-themed army, some awesome conversions that don't look like the model they are supposed to be, or made up a whole army, that's just fine. Go ahead. Do whatever you like.
But if someone is just lazy, then I would not like playing against him. For me the whole thing of presenting a fully painted army upon a nice field with interesting scenery is a big part of the hobby.

Ofcourse, using one or two proxies or whatever isn't a bad thing, maybe some unpainted stuff as you're still in the progress of building, but just not even attempting to make something out of it is too far for me. Probably I would grin and sit it out, but I wouldn't be back for another game.

Häxjägare
12-04-2009, 11:38
If someone was testing a new army out, trying to figure it out what they like to play sure.

If it became a regular thing I wouldn't be that happy, the unpainted thing would never really bother me outside of a tournament afterall a friendly is a friendly.

Roxors45
12-04-2009, 15:26
i wouldnt play a random guy, but a friend proxing a army he intends to buy sure, or even just to change it up.

its a crap exonomy, people cant affod the million pounds worth fo GW gear to play anymore.

I have a small beef with this thinking, and its nothing against you personally. Warhammer is arguably an expensive hobby, much like RC cars or playing paintball. When someone makes the comment "its too expensive" or "I don't have the money to field the force I want" I think "then why are you playing?".

I admittedly have a good job as does my wife though no where close to being "well off" and I have the luxury of being able to force 2 good sized Fantasy armies and a budding 40k one. The 40k one is entirely in boxes.

Back on point though is how do people play when they can't afford to? I understand the want to play a game you find fun, but making paper cutouts to use doesn't justify the hobby. I would LOVE to buy myself a really good paintball gun and armor and what not but I just donthave the money for it. So when I do play I borrow someones gun, not go pay for the space and throw balls at people. My team would hate me and I'd be useless. I feel some people have this mentality.

Regarding the economy, people should be living in their means more than ever. I can't count how many people I've run by that has more models than groceries or who has stressed relationships because of their hobby. The want to play is normal, but you can have everything. I give my friends the armies I have to fulfuill their want to play even though they can't afford it. They don't go out and buy whatever is cheap and use a dozen counts-as rules.

So if someone doesn't have the money to pursue the hobby and game shouldn't they not attempt to play (again unless provided suitable minis from a friend)? Isn't this why Credit is ruining the economy? People seeing something they want and not caring that they can't afford it to the detriment of others?. Sorry for ranting and I hope I didn't come off elitest or anything :/

Classical Mushroom
12-04-2009, 16:35
I'd have let it slide if he was seeing how the units played and wanted to try it out before buying all the models.
Tho if it was a regular thing then i would start refusing and force him to paint till his eyes started to bleed Goblin Green! :evilgrin:

Overall as long as its helping them decide what and what not to buy its cool.

Feefait
12-04-2009, 16:40
well oyu knew what things were well enough to come on and write it up. and you won. so couldnt have been all bad. sounds like they were beginning players, probably best to apply pointers then get upset. i played many a high school days when instead of clanrats i has ral partha cardboard counters. and don't ask what i used for my giant leeches cause i have no clue... lol

ahh fun games

Mercules
12-04-2009, 16:42
Next time tell them a better solution is colored card stock. You can get it at any scrapbooking store or in the hobby section of Walmart.

1. It gets cut to the right base size
2. You can write what it is on it so it gets less confusing, especially if you use different colors too
3. Frankly, it looks nicer in my opinion than a mismatched bunch of models that look nothing like what they should be

This is how I do proxies as I am still trying out a few different things. My Wild Riders are still not on their horses, but those are obvious and once my Ogres are painted nicely I'll go back to my woodeleves and get them finished.

This is why I play with friends and a gaming club that is mostly NEW players. They are in the same boat.

Brother Siccarius
12-04-2009, 17:04
If you don't like it, don't play it. If you're willing to tough it out through the game without saying anything, why go online and play the part of the internet martyr and the rumormonger saying "How terrible it was that I had to play against this army that I could have easily refused to play!". Why didn't you ask about why the army was like that? Why go about saying how terrible it is to face these armies when you apparently said nothing against it, and haven't given any evidence that you even asked why they were doing it.

On the other hand, if you did ask, and it was a good enough reason for you to keep playing them, why are you leaving out that tidbit?

badgeraddict
12-04-2009, 17:11
Hehe how random.

Most of these proxies I wouldn't play against.

orkz222
12-04-2009, 20:48
de models proxy as we models in a de & we alliance battle? talk about confusing...

Mouldsta
12-04-2009, 21:09
Warhammer is a game. There is a hobby around it, but at it's heart, its just a game like any other.

Some of us view it as the other way around - It's a hobby. There's some rules for playing it as a game, but at it's heart it's a hobby.

I've always seen it as a painting and collecting hobby, with some rules invented to give you something to do with your nicely painted models - that's how it originated, and that's still how it is in my mind.

So yes I would refuse to play an unpainted mishmash army even if it was a "legal" army on paper. Just as you'd probably object to playing against a goblin army where eveything had bloodthirster stats even though they were fully painted gobbos.

WIP is one thing, random junk just thrown on the table is another.

I've had this conversation recently - guy was using HE and was trying to use an old cardboard RBT with no stand - it was just flat with 2 guys on it.
His arguement was that it was obvious what it was (has a picture), took up about the same space, and was even coloured in.
My arguement was that I didn't want to spend a game being shot by a beermat.

CazKid69
13-04-2009, 00:32
Personnally i hate using proxies. I so much rather having the actual model. Otherwise i think you shouldn't be able to use that unit. The only time i have ever used proxy models was for a mock LOTR battle with my brother. Strangely an Ultramarine Captain didn't make a convincing Gandalf the Grey.

Laurela
13-04-2009, 00:34
I don't mind a few proxies, but that is way too much

Gazak Blacktoof
13-04-2009, 01:06
I have no problems with proxying. Provided the models are on appropriately sized bases it makes no difference if they're elves or goblins.

Doing it game after game gets a bit tiresome unless you're playtesting a lot of different options, in which case I'd want some reminder cards placed next to the proxied units anyway.

If you play in an environment when proxying is allowed it means you can't tailor you lists too much either, you don't know that just because your friend doesn't have four wizard models you wont be facing them.

Kaid
13-04-2009, 01:22
I guess those who like to pour hours into the "hobby" side think that its all about painting and assembling blah "Ooooh look at my pretty models". I beat these people.

When you have to throw down 70 dollars to get a rule book and an army book it is reasonable to understand that people won't always have everything primed painted and ready to go. And if people did have to play that way... A good bit of people would not be playing and good luck on sucking anyone else into the hobby while other games are being produced that cost much MUCH less.

TeddyC
13-04-2009, 01:28
lets assume there IS a line... where do you draw it?

Using identical models to represent 2 different units?

Using a bit of card with a bolt thrower drawn on to represent a bolt thrower?

an unmounted cold one knight as a sorceress?

a coke can as a stegadon?

A spray paint lid as an anvil of doom?

If its getting to that point why have models at all? why not just make base sized cardboard markers with some form of colour code? forget the models entirely!

As I said before I have no problem with it happening once or twice. but if its to 'try out' a new unit id expect by the third consecutive game there would at least be a front rank or a command group of the appropriate models (or in the case of 'one offs' the model itself!)

WarlockOMork
13-04-2009, 01:35
a mate of mine is quite slow at building his army and started off that way.
aka random objects and/or not the correct units and/or unpainted to be used as his units.

i have no problem with it happening dozens of times.
the only line i draw is a very acceptable one. every time i play him i want it to look a bit more like an army(the right army ofc :p).

if you arent even the slightest bit compromizing your just scaring off people that will start playing the game, and if no one starts playing the game it'll just die out.

cant let that happen :)

So encouraging people to play is the way to go inmo, as long as they make progress.

Staurikosaurus
13-04-2009, 12:45
I guess those who like to pour hours into the "hobby" side think that its all about painting and assembling blah "Ooooh look at my pretty models". I beat these people.

When you have to throw down 70 dollars to get a rule book and an army book it is reasonable to understand that people won't always have everything primed painted and ready to go. And if people did have to play that way... A good bit of people would not be playing and good luck on sucking anyone else into the hobby while other games are being produced that cost much MUCH less.

Congratulations, you've contributed nothing to the discussion. Please go away.

To the OP:

I think I'd rather play against a bunch of labelled movement trays for awhile than that confusing hodge-podge of proxies. However, I would hope that your opponent is planning on buying the correct models or working on some representative conversions. I have no problem whatsoever with people "testing" out new units or army lists before purchasing units - but as TeddyC and others have stated, there are limits.

Mercules
13-04-2009, 14:43
Congratulations, you've contributed nothing to the discussion. Please go away.

To the OP:

I think I'd rather play against a bunch of labelled movement trays for awhile than that confusing hodge-podge of proxies. However, I would hope that your opponent is planning on buying the correct models or working on some representative conversions. I have no problem whatsoever with people "testing" out new units or army lists before purchasing units - but as TeddyC and others have stated, there are limits.

Oddly enough, you and he are making similar statements.

My situation, for example, was one where I always wanted to get into Warhammer. I would wander down to a few local stores and watch people play from time to time, marvel at their armies and the games. I thumbed through the various army books and considered.

Why did I not start back in '91?

Price Tag. End of story.

First I would need the main rule book. Then I would have to figure out what army to play from all the different army books. Well, the gaming stores are not libraries so I couldn't just read all the books to decide on buying them. I did manage to read a few, borrowing them during the games I observed.

I had actually figured I might start a Skaven army. I was lucky enough to have one of the store people borrow me a Skaven army to play and play a couple games. The army wasn't what I would have probably built out of the list.

So I started looking at buying everything. Once I realized how much I would have to spend to get even 1,000 points on the table in Books, models, paint, basing materials, brushes, and modeling tools, I basically walked away from the game.

Why am I playing now? Brand new club starting.

I helped get a club started in my "home town" up north of where I now live. We allow proxies, heck, proxy your whole army, as long as it is clear what is what. Store makes money selling books & dice, and then hopefully selling models, then hopefully selling paint. Players can build up armies as we go, adding more and more pieces.

I've seen people who would have shook their head and told us we were crazy to spend that much, turn around and start buying a box of models here, and a blister there. All because we got them interested and able to play without a major investment.

Malorian
13-04-2009, 14:45
I'd play against that army but I'd rather play someone else, and if they wanted me to keep playing in the future they better make some progress.

Mercules
13-04-2009, 15:34
I have a small beef with this thinking, and its nothing against you personally. Warhammer is arguably an expensive hobby, much like RC cars or playing paintball. When someone makes the comment "its too expensive" or "I don't have the money to field the force I want" I think "then why are you playing?".

Paintball isn't that expensive. You can buy a decent Marker, CO2 tank, and Goggles for around $150 dollars definately less than $200. Splitting a case of paint with a friend means another $25 and $5 to fill your tank. So for between $180 and $250 you can wander out and spend a day playing Paintball and then it is only around $30 a time after that.

Now... if you want the custom Intimidator with a Halo Loader, Nitrogen Tank, extremely comfortable goggles, and a super nice barrel for accuracy, you might be spending closer to $2,000 dollars than $200. I have that setup too.

Lets compare to Warhammer.

$50 BRB
$25 Army Book
$35-$40 per Core unit needing at least 2
$12-20 General Model
$12-20 2 other Heros
$35-$40 Special unit
$20-$30 Rare unit
$12-$20 Brushes
$40-$50 Paint
$5-$10 Basing material

Ignoring paint you have spent at least $200 dollars and that is unlikely to be much of an army. With paint and everything else you are closer to $300 dollars and to field a 1k army you will most likely need another $50 in models or have a very straightforward army that will do poorly. Now, most people play 2k armies which means even more investment.

Unlike paintball, where you really only need a tournament level gun(Angel/'timmy/whatnot) for tournament play, even casual games of Warhammer require a good deal of models to play.

I could have used my Spider with very minor upgrades forever, and that Marker is a lot less temperamental than my Intimidator. Getting into Warhammer isn't the same though. Most of the time it is expected you show up for Warhammer with a huge amount of painted models. It is the equivalent of showing up in a jersey and pants for paintball with high end gear, not jeans and an old t-shirt with a basic gun and goggles. I'll tell you how most people show up around where I live. ;)

Bac5665
13-04-2009, 15:42
Exactly. I have a good friend who wanted to play Warhammer and was looking at Empire. But he couldn't justify the more than $300 that his 2250 list would have been. It was said. This game has a very high entry cost.

Anyway, I just thing that knowing the rules and actually playing is much more important that painting models or worrying about correct models. To me, I'd rather get a player playing games than making him or her sit down and paint for 3 months before playing. That's just not right.

theunwantedbeing
13-04-2009, 15:54
It's not cost thats the issue.
It's the time that you need to spend on assembling, basing and painting your army.

It's lazy to not bother.
So people want to play those who have bothered.

Peril
13-04-2009, 16:55
The confusing stuff is a no go for me, and the warrior-as-bolt-thrower is a no go. I do at least require proper base sizes and reasonably clear indications of what a unit is. I don't care about the painting or proxying.

Bac5665
13-04-2009, 16:59
Well, the cost is part of it. I've spent plenty of money on paints and brushes and whatnot. It's a serious cost, especially for your first army, when you need to buy a ton of colors for effective shading and whatnot.

But saying that not wanting to paint is lazy is like saying not wanting carve my own chess pieces is lazy. Some people just want to play the game, and not have to worry about the rest. And I think it's elitist to tell them that they are "bad." I don't like painting, though I do it and I have 3.5 fully painted armies. But I shouldn't have to learn a craft in order play a strategy game without people calling me lazy.

I genuinely think it is far more offensive to tell someone they have to learn a complex difficult art form before being allowed to play a strategy game with his or her mates. To me, that's elitism and serves no purpose but to turn people away from the hobby.

Malorian
13-04-2009, 17:05
My problem is that I collect faster than I paint and then, like Bac says, I'd rather play than paint.

I think eventually everyone should paint their army as it really adds a lot to the feel of the game, but if I have a gaming buddy over and only 2 hours I'd rather get a game in rather than have a painting party and finish painting 5-10 models.

Mercules
13-04-2009, 17:09
It's not cost thats the issue.
It's the time that you need to spend on assembling, basing and painting your army.

It's lazy to not bother.
So people want to play those who have bothered.

So... question then. If someone wandered in to play with you with an army they bought of E-Bay already painted... would you play them? According to your statement you wouldn't because it didn't matter how much they spent, just that they based and painted their army.

Zoolander
13-04-2009, 17:27
Yeah, that blows. In all honestly, if they don't have enough troops, play a lower point game then. Or wait until they do. I once started a game with a kid, maybe 15 tops, who obviously didn't have a lot of money for such an expensive hobby, who wanted to use flash cards for all his units. Comically, the cards were cut roughly into the shape of the represented units, and had their title written on each card. I made it through two turns and couldn't stomach it any longer. I should have stopped him at the start of the game, during deployment, when I saw what he was doing, but after the 4th or 5th flash card, I just felt so bad, I didn;t have the heart. But my annoyance overtook kindness, and I ended the farce.

theunwantedbeing
13-04-2009, 17:33
So... question then. If someone wandered in to play with you with an army they bought of E-Bay already painted... would you play them? According to your statement you wouldn't because it didn't matter how much they spent, just that they based and painted their army.

I would.
Had he bought the OP's army off ebay however, no.

Buying a painted army is making an effort to have a painted army.
Buying an unpainted army and using it as it is is not making an effort to have a painted army.

A painted army is a painted army.
Doesnt matter if you painted it or not.
Turning up with an unpainted army full of stupid proxies no matter how much "effort" you can claim to have put into them will not get you a game when there are other players who have nice painted armies that dont have proxies to face instead.

Sucks to be the guy with the proxied unpainted army, but thats just how things are.

Bac5665
13-04-2009, 17:45
And you honestly thing that demanding that someone either pay more than twice the money for their army OR spend 10s of hours on a complex craft before you'll play them is less disrespectful than asking you to look at gray models during a game? Jeez, that seems warped to me.

Rubicon
13-04-2009, 19:16
Way back in time when i played 40k, i played an army wherte pretty much everything was proxied, and it was one of those old SM codex 6 Dreadnought lists. I played to the end, lost and was particularly annoyed about it.

Mercules
13-04-2009, 19:51
I would.
Had he bought the OP's army off ebay however, no.

Buying a painted army is making an effort to have a painted army.
Buying an unpainted army and using it as it is is not making an effort to have a painted army.

A painted army is a painted army.
Doesnt matter if you painted it or not.
Turning up with an unpainted army full of stupid proxies no matter how much "effort" you can claim to have put into them will not get you a game when there are other players who have nice painted armies that dont have proxies to face instead.

Sucks to be the guy with the proxied unpainted army, but thats just how things are.

And you are exactly the person who keeps many people from ever starting this game. You are the guy who shook his head and looked down on me when I couldn't afford a full army back in '91 and kept me out of this great hobby for 15 years.

You are the reason I go to many game shops and hear from the staff. "Well, we used to have a lot of Warhammer players, but we took our tables out. We only had a few die-hards and nobody new starting. I think it is just overwhelming for new people to start."



If person walked up to me and started a conversation about the game saying they thought about it but it seemed to hard to get into. I would be encouraging them to get a book, a straight edge, sharp knife or scissors, card stock, and a scissors. I'd tell them to read the book, pick and army, and put it together with cardstock and then come play me.

I'd advise them what worked and what didn't and maybe point out what units they can count on having in their army and which ones they might want to buy first. I'd then play them again and again against the hopefully growing grey horde.

Then one day I'd suggest having a painting party at the store and sit down and show them a couple different ways to start painting. I'd never push too hard, understanding but try to encourage them to build up an army.

I've never understood why people want to be elitist pricks to others who show an interest in a hobby they enjoy.:wtf: You don't want more people to play with? You'd rather have the hobby die out because you contribute to making it unapproachable?

WarlockOMork
13-04-2009, 19:56
All i can say is, Exactly What i was trying to point out/say, but written/worded a lot "better/more clearly" (Go Merc!)

that kind of Elitism could someday be the death of this beautifull hobby.

Edit: but yeah as i said before(the post is a bit up) they do have to make progress(no mather how slow) in building their army!. else i dont think i'd play them either.
but nothing wrong with a bit of encouragement. and letting some things slide for the sake of a newblood(i dont like the word newbie).

zak
13-04-2009, 20:00
If someone agreed that they wanted to proxy an army, as they wanted to see if it was for them before buying it, then I would be fine IF warned before. However, I don't like to play against proxies that are nothing like what they are supposed to represent. One man as a bolt thrower is lazy and confusing. Use a piece of paper with a bolt thrower drawn on if necessary.

Zoolander
13-04-2009, 20:12
And you are exactly the person who keeps many people from ever starting this game. You are the guy who shook his head and looked down on me when I couldn't afford a full army back in '91 and kept me out of this great hobby for 15 years.

You are the reason I go to many game shops and hear from the staff. "Well, we used to have a lot of Warhammer players, but we took our tables out. We only had a few die-hards and nobody new starting. I think it is just overwhelming for new people to start."



If person walked up to me and started a conversation about the game saying they thought about it but it seemed to hard to get into. I would be encouraging them to get a book, a straight edge, sharp knife or scissors, card stock, and a scissors. I'd tell them to read the book, pick and army, and put it together with cardstock and then come play me.

I'd advise them what worked and what didn't and maybe point out what units they can count on having in their army and which ones they might want to buy first. I'd then play them again and again against the hopefully growing grey horde.

Then one day I'd suggest having a painting party at the store and sit down and show them a couple different ways to start painting. I'd never push too hard, understanding but try to encourage them to build up an army.

I've never understood why people want to be elitist pricks to others who show an interest in a hobby they enjoy.:wtf: You don't want more people to play with? You'd rather have the hobby die out because you contribute to making it unapproachable?

Jesus! We're not asking them to go buy a $25,000 Mini Cooper. FFS! We are asking them to spend roughly $300 on a hobby they enjoy. They don't have to spend all $300 right away! They can spend it in increments. Minis (the models, not the car) cost roughly $8-$50. If they can't manage to spend that every month, they have issues. Maybe if they didn't eat out twice a month they could do it. Maybe if they didn't go to the movies twice a month, they could do it then. They don't have to change their life, they just have to allocate funds to what they want. They need to budget. If they are so poor they cannot do that, then they have no business in this hobby, or many other hobbies for that matter! Sorry, that is harsh but it's the reality.

The Great Unclean One
13-04-2009, 20:39
I don't generally mind other people proxying models but to that extent is a bit far, I have to admit. I never judge anyone based on their army painting given that not everyone (like me) enjoys the hobby side of the game.

I'm the first to admit to having used Sauron as a Giant, a Fell Beast as a Wyvern and a blob of greenstuff as a Chaos Spawn. :D

Got ripped silly for that mind you...

Sarah S
13-04-2009, 20:42
I hear a dice box got used as a Bloodthirster at a US GT last year.

Bac5665
13-04-2009, 20:43
No one just starting out wants to buy an army over a few months. Most people want to play regular games, which are 2000-2500 in size depending on group. For that, you do need to put out $300+, and, on top of this, some people here insist that people also paint that whole army first, which costs another $50+ at least, plus months of work for most people.

So, to satisfy some people, a new person needs to spend $350+ before they are allowed to play a normal game. That's ludicrous.

Besides which, the attitude that it's disrespectful to not paint one's army just rubs me raw. If I don't like painting I shouldn't have to paint to play the game. And you don't have to play me, if you don't want. But it doesn't give you the right to call be names, like lazy, or disrespectful. People are allowed to tailor the experience towards what they want, and for some people, painting isn't part of that. I think calling those people lazy and disrespectful is hypocritical at best and elitist and bad for the hobby at worst.

W0lf
13-04-2009, 20:48
It could/would only bother me if forgetting/mistaking what a proxy was caused me to lose the game. As you won anyway no big deal.

TBH proxy really dosnt bother me. When playing at mine or friends houses we often use armies we dont have a single model for (for fun/laugh try out)

Brimweave
13-04-2009, 21:32
Jesus! We're not asking them to go buy a $25,000 Mini Cooper. FFS! We are asking them to spend roughly $300 on a hobby they enjoy. They don't have to spend all $300 right away! They can spend it in increments. Minis (the models, not the car) cost roughly $8-$50. If they can't manage to spend that every month, they have issues. Maybe if they didn't eat out twice a month they could do it. Maybe if they didn't go to the movies twice a month, they could do it then. They don't have to change their life, they just have to allocate funds to what they want. They need to budget. If they are so poor they cannot do that, then they have no business in this hobby, or many other hobbies for that matter! Sorry, that is harsh but it's the reality.

It is true a model only cost $8 - $25 but you have forgotten that the initial cost for all the bits to start the hobby are quite expensive. Paints, brushes, tools, armybooks (you don't want to start painting a army you hate playing) and maybe the actual rulebook too. This adds upto quite abit. Even though it may all together only cost as much as, for example, a computer game, it seems more expensive as many of my friends have said "It cost £10 for that bit of plastic!!!!".

A computer game has immediate satisfaction, warhammer takes longer to get this satisfaction and also even longer if you require everyone to have painted armies to play.

Mercules
13-04-2009, 21:58
Jesus! We're not asking them to go buy a $25,000 Mini Cooper. FFS! We are asking them to spend roughly $300 on a hobby they enjoy. They don't have to spend all $300 right away! They can spend it in increments. Minis (the models, not the car) cost roughly $8-$50. If they can't manage to spend that every month, they have issues. Maybe if they didn't eat out twice a month they could do it. Maybe if they didn't go to the movies twice a month, they could do it then. They don't have to change their life, they just have to allocate funds to what they want. They need to budget. If they are so poor they cannot do that, then they have no business in this hobby, or many other hobbies for that matter! Sorry, that is harsh but it's the reality.

On a hobby they enjoy...

The problem is that they don't know yet if they enjoy it. They look at the price tag both money and time before they can play with a painted army and then decide that it isn't worth it on a game and/or army they don't know IF they are going to enjoy.

They could decide to not go out to eat once or twice a month and buy a "unit" each month. Figure 2 characters/warmachines/monsters are the same as a unit. So 3-4 characters is 2 months. 2 warmachines/monsters another month. 3 core, 3 more. 4 special, 4 more months. So we are at almost a year and haven't bought tools/paints yet.

Do you not get how unapproachable this hobby is unless you either just "dive in"(spending a lot) or find someone willing to play while you figure out what you want by allowing proxies? :)

Take a look at E-bay. Look at all the "couple units" for sale that are half assembled and half painted. People give up part way into the hobby when they realize they won't be playing for several months even if they work diligently at it.

I have an advantage. I was painting miniatures for RPGs so I know how to paint. I have friends that agonize over that part of building their army and I tell them to take their time and practice on other models. Play with the damn things unpainted.. just play.. so you don't get frustrated and leave the hobby...

Devil
13-04-2009, 22:37
This would **** me off. I would never play this guy. Dude don't let this person ruin your fun. This person obviously hasn't enough respect for you and cares not for anyone's enjoyment of the game but his own. These kind of gamers detract from the beauty of this great game are aren't worthy.

Does he tend to always field unpainted minis? IS he always proxying so to speak? I understand it if once in awhile. But I would bet he is more oftne the not fielding unpainted minis and "proxying".. Sometimes people can use the term proxying to cover over what is really going on. Lazyness. This list is confusing and unfair to you. How are you supposed to keep this all straight in your head? Hell I bet he cannot even keep it all straight. Total BS.

Staurikosaurus
14-04-2009, 07:41
I think people who own the rulebook should check out the first section before the rules start. It talks about how this is a HOBBY GAME. As a result it involves monetary cost. It involves time. It involves work. ALL hobbies do.
Playing against someone who appears to not have invested a similar amount of money, time or work on their army invokes a persons sense of fairness. People get upset because they feel that the person across from them wants to take part in their hobby but not contribute to it in a way that they feel is appropriate. This is perfectly natural and in a way, appropriate. Do you spend your time with people that have similar interests, drives and attitudes to yourself or do you spend your time with people who are the compete opposite of yourself. If you suggest the latter you're mistaken, and I've a whole lot of information on human psychology to back it up.

However;

You can start out in this hobby with $25.
A single box of models, some testors plastic glue and a hobby knife. Coincidently many people have a hobby knife already if they look in their/their parents' toolbox or biology lab kit.

From there download the free rulebooks available on the GW Website (Mordheim etc)

That gets you started. From there it's up to you.

Alternatively, a starter box with paints and a paintbrush within ($85 CDN) and a bottle of testors glue ($2) gets you started in the hobby. Worst case scenario you've a cool bunch of models to give to a relative or charity when you're done messing around.

nosferatu1001
14-04-2009, 13:49
Brushes? Just get one, standard brush - Does all you need. Then buy a few paints and washes, and done. Clippers, knives etc can also be had fairly cheaply. Real costs are the initial outlay for the rulebooks - and while the store isnt a library, actually ask staff / other epople what the armies are like and try to figure out how you like to play BEFORE buying the books - like all purchases in life don't whine that you wasted money because you couldnt be bothered to do some research yourself!

It's a hobby game - two parts that combine to make somethign greater.

The overwhelming consensus seems to be - talk to your opponent beforehand. Make them understand what / why you proxy (or dont paint, or do X conversions....) and get them on your side before the game starts. However, the person with the proxied army should realise they are essentially asking a favour - "can i take this 3d game and change it to one based around squares of plastic?" - and should behave as such.

Personally - what I do in a game depends on my opponent. If they are a jerk with a wonderful army, they are still a jerk. If they are fully proxied randomness then, as long as theyre cool with me asking what's what every 5 minutes, and forgiving of mistakes I may make because of the proxies (totally forgot that beercan was a hydra, can i redo my units move? etc (within reason)) then I don't have an issue. I'm lucky in that i can generally buy chunks of armies, so can get an army assembled quickly enough to have fun, however not everyone can.

finally - get battalions! Normally gives you 500+ points for fairly cheap, and then one character. UK prices are about £50 (think guard new set is £55) which isn't bad. For the person comparing costs to paintballing you missed one thing vital - $30 per month to keep using it vs (once finished) £15 every 5 years to get a new army book to keep using the army. Initial outlay is high but return is very good!

Mercules
14-04-2009, 13:59
I can play a much better version of Mordheim...

It's called Gurps, D&D, Shadowrun, Rifts... Etc. In fact I would encourage anyone playing those games to use miniatures as it adds a whole new dimension.

It is a hobby. Which means it is something people will do if they enjoy it. If they don't, they won't. They have to get some enjoyment out of painting the army(or apparently out of buying a painted army:wtf:) to enjoy the hobby.

The OP's army was sad. As I said, I would rather play someone with clearly labeled cardstock pieces than, "This eraser is an Altar of the Gods" person. At least the person who went and cut out the pieces and labeled them went through the trouble of of making it clear what they had.

However... I have been on the other side of the fence where the hobby seemed unapproachable because of this wall of, "Well if you are not going to spend months and hundreds of dollars first... I am not going to lower myself to play with you." Seriously... that is the attitude that gets projected. It's not very welcoming.

Why am I so strongly pushing the issue right now? Because I have my army assembled and primed. I've been playing with it at my normal venue, which is a budding club. My normal venue is 3 hours away and I go there because we are all new(relatively speaking) to the game so most of us have armies in various stages of building. There are 5 venues closer, one within 15 minutes of home, another within 10 minutes of where I sit right now that has weekly WH:FB.

You have to ask yourselves why I drive 3 hours to play. Because my army isn't fully painted and based yet. I really don't enjoy myself when certain people are looking down their nose. Heck ask some of them to play a 750-1000 point game and they look like you just grew a second head.

People snubbing me really isn't an incentive for me to "paint faster". In fact it is an incentive for me to bring some very volatile hairspray and my nice hot lighter(we all have those dark moments in our thoughts, don't we?). I'm on a budget and HAVE been building my armies over the last year. Last thing I bought was more paint.

I really thing you guys are not getting the idea of, "Let's spend money and time for about a year before we ever get to actually play WH:FB to see if we like it." not being a desirable thing to most people. This isn't even taking into account the normal question I get of, "Well, it looks fun, but what if I build <insert army> and then decide I don't like how they play? I am out all that time and money."

Kovinth
15-04-2009, 17:30
I've finished reading this thread and I have to say, Mercules you are spot on. I looked at warhammer about 12 years ago and made a quick and easy decision I was not going to play this game (due to its cost, models aren't sold painted, etc.) despite it looking fun.

Fortunately I am now in a better financial situation and learned how to paint well through heavy internet research and have almost finished my 2250pt army. The barriers to entry to this game are extremely high and I'm not surprised in the least that the vast majority of people interested in this game never get started due to this.

New players are important for the game's health.

Ixquic
15-04-2009, 18:19
I'm not gonna lie. My current orc list has 3 boyz being used as bolt throwers. I have no intention whatsoever of painting the army and I typically only play with friends so I don't see a reason to shell out the cash to get them. The will to play in official tourney or leader board games has been beaten out of me by the horribly unbalanced army books so it shouldn't ever be a problem.

For armies I actually care about it's another thing but no one plays orcs as it is so people don't seem to care about some odd proxies.

Staurikosaurus
15-04-2009, 22:20
Don't be so quick to judge. I've roleplayed as well.

AD&D, Shadowrun, Paranoia, Toons, Gurps, Werewolf, Vampire, Mage, Wraith, Changeling, RIFTS, Marvel, DC, Immortal and more.

As a hobby, it's not any cheaper.

popisdead
15-04-2009, 23:59
There is a guy here who is using his old all metal lizardmen army as a daemon army. it's not even based correctly.

stuff like what you described and the above is the pinnacle of douche-baggery.

i have no problem with someone building waywatchers 'out of' the glade guard kit, especially done right. I have a problem with ad-hoc proxying permanently.

Mercules
16-04-2009, 00:04
Don't be so quick to judge. I've roleplayed as well.

AD&D, Shadowrun, Paranoia, Toons, Gurps, Werewolf, Vampire, Mage, Wraith, Changeling, RIFTS, Marvel, DC, Immortal and more.

As a hobby, it's not any cheaper.

What I was actually saying was that many of those RPGs can use miniatures and many are better with them. They are ALL better for single figure tactical play than Mordheim. Mordheim is not a way to be introduced into Warhammer, it's a good way to ask yourself why you simply are not play D&D or Gurps.

Warbands is a decent introduction into Warhammer, but even then you are talking $75 in books, another $75 in models, and paint. That isn't too horrible and is the route I try to go with new players, going a step further and offering to play them with Proxied figures, usually cardstock.

Dragonreaver
16-04-2009, 00:06
It depends on their attitude really. If the reason for the shoddy nature of the army was lazyness, then clearly that'd be unacceptable. I probably wouldn't refuse to play them outright (games are hard to come by around here...), but I would make my displeasure known.

If, however, it was a 'I'm just trying out this list' type of game, I'd probably be ok with it, although I would definately have words about the Glade Guard and the Assassins.

TrojanWolf
16-04-2009, 01:18
That takes "counts as" to the point of being ridiculous. I don't mind unpainted/unbased, but to use that much counts as would seriously annoy me.