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12-04-2009, 01:27
Ok, I know this has been answered partially, but seeking some opinions.

In The Rulebook, it says might is always expended after dice have been rolled, and after re-rolls are used, to modify rolls.

In the case of making two rolls, the might is added to both of them.

In situations where you need to make two rolls to beat a defense value, e.g 6's and 4's, should you

A) Make your first roll, get a 5, then decide to expend the might, and then roll again, adding plus 1 to that roll.

or

B) Make your first roll, get a 5, knowing that you then could add a might to increase that to 6, roll your second result of either a 3+ (in which case a might point would make the roll succeed), then expend a might to succeed, or get 1 or 2 on the second roll, and not expend the might point, because you will know that the roll is a failure.

I'm 99% sure that the best methodology is B) but just wanted to make sure that other people feel the same way.

12-04-2009, 03:17
I am going with A, I believe you must commit the might point to get the chance to roll a second time.

Sarah S
12-04-2009, 03:21
You have to roll the 6 before you can roll the second dice.

A score of 6/4, 6/5 etc means that you must roll a single D6 and score a 6, followed by a further dice that must score either a 4, 5, or another 6, depending on the number after the slash.
page 39 (it's the shooting rules, but the combat rules say "as before..." in their instructions).

So the further dice follows the first one when the first is a 6. If the first dice isn't a 6, then you don't roll the second one.

To roll the second one, you would have to spend your might to turn the first one into a 6 in the first place.

jaws900
12-04-2009, 07:43
I would go with B as you can use X number of might ito incress any 1 rolls by X Number. Just as you would incress a failed fate for a nazgul by using some of his might. Cince it is a to wound roll i would say you can use your might on both rolls however heros having to roll a 6 then 4+ is rather rare.

General Veers
12-04-2009, 13:04
I'd also go with "A" as per the "Roll to Hit" rule. That's not explicitly changed in the rules for Might on page 69, so might has to be applied to the first roll if it's a failure to get the opportunity to roll again. I agree with jaws900 though this is a rare occurance. It's a good question though.

VeriNasti
13-04-2009, 09:27
A - you have to roll the first dice and then if it is a 6 or configured to a 6 you may roll the second and configure that dice with might if necessary

14-04-2009, 06:28
I am going to reiterate that it should be B, because in the rulebook it states that Re-rolls can be applied after BOTH rolls have been made, and Might points are only added on after Re-rolls have already been done. Ergo it has to be B) You make the initial roll, apply any potential re-rolls, and if a might point will lead to a success, you use it. Otherwise you don't

Llew
14-04-2009, 12:26
If you haven't spent the Might point, there is *no* re-roll. There's not a re-roll even if you *do* spend the Might point.

You roll your first roll. If it's a 5 and you spend no Might, it's done. There are no re-rolls or additional rolls coming.

If it's a 5 and you spend 1 Might point to make the result a 6, you then must roll a further die. It's not a re-roll, it's another die. Think of it as expanding your earlier roll. You get the Might point on this roll too.

Re-rolls are something pretty specific. If you don't like the result of a particular die, and you have an ability that lets you do so, you can re-roll it. The earlier result disappears as if it never existed and the result of the re-roll is now the value for that action.

I agree that B is the best methodology in terms of number crunching, but it has a small problem in that it is against the rules.

15-04-2009, 10:41
That's not what I am saying. I am saying the in the rules, you only ever add might after any applicable re-roll abilities have been used.

It also says, that re-roll abilities can affect BOTH OR EITHER the first and second dice roll when you need more than a 6 to wound.

Possible situation - you roll to wound, get a 6, then a 4. Your opponent forces a re-roll through some ability, you get a 5, then a 3. You then use a might, you once again have a 6 then a 4 and wound.

How is that different than rolling a 5 and a 3 in the first place ruleswise? it's really not.

Rirekon
15-04-2009, 11:39
That's not what I am saying. I am saying the in the rules, you only ever add might after any applicable re-roll abilities have been used.

It also says, that re-roll abilities can affect BOTH OR EITHER the first and second dice roll when you need more than a 6 to wound.

Possible situation - you roll to wound, get a 6, then a 4. Your opponent forces a re-roll through some ability, you get a 5, then a 3. You then use a might, you once again have a 6 and roll again for a 4 and wound.

How is that different than rolling a 5 and a 3 in the first place ruleswise? it's really not.

If you roll a 5 then you don't get to roll again. That example should be;
Possible situation - you roll to wound, get a 6, then a 4. Your opponent forces a re-roll through some ability, you get a 5. You then use a might, you once again have a 6, then a 4 and wound.

A (possible) better example for Might use;
4 attacks needing 6/4 to hit
The first roll comes up 1, 4, 5, 6
Not using Might: 1 dice is rolled and comes up 4 for 1 hit
Using Might: the first roll is modified to 2, 5, 6, 6 - 2 dice are rolled and come up 3, 4 which is modified to 4, 5 for 2 hits

Llew
15-04-2009, 11:42
That's not what I am saying. I am saying the in the rules, you only ever add might after any applicable re-roll abilities have been used.

It also says, that re-roll abilities can affect BOTH OR EITHER the first and second dice roll when you need more than a 6 to wound.

Possible situation - you roll to wound, get a 6, then a 4. Your opponent forces a re-roll through some ability, you get a 5, then a 3. You then use a might, you once again have a 6 then a 4 and wound.

How is that different than rolling a 5 and a 3 in the first place ruleswise? it's really not.

Actually, it is. There once again several things to pay attention to.

First, notice that in your former example this happens is because an opponent has invoked a special ability to force you to do this. That's a significant difference, and special abilities can break the "normal" rules. In fact, that's sorta the entire point of special abilities.

Second, I don't find anything in the rules that suggests you roll a further die if you only roll a 5. Nothing. So if you roll a 5 and don't spend a Might point, the chain ends immediately. You have failed to wound your opponent and the combat is over. (I only had a few minutes to look over the rule book last night. If I get some time for a really in-depth search and turn something up, I'll correct this.)

I'll agree that GW's wording on Might counting on re-rolls, but being spent after, yadda, yadda, yadda is confusing. Once again though, I think this is another case of them trying to (badly) cover any possible contingency. They're trying to be overly-clear, but I wouldn't read this to be any sort of expansion to the rules.

Everyone would prefer that your system be the way to do it, as you have less chance of wasting a Might point, but the critical point comes where you have to have a 6 to even to make a further roll.

15-04-2009, 14:30
Actually, it is. There once again several things to pay attention to.

First, notice that in your former example this happens is because an opponent has invoked a special ability to force you to do this. That's a significant difference, and special abilities can break the "normal" rules. In fact, that's sorta the entire point of special abilities.

Second, I don't find anything in the rules that suggests you roll a further die if you only roll a 5. Nothing. So if you roll a 5 and don't spend a Might point, the chain ends immediately. You have failed to wound your opponent and the combat is over. (I only had a few minutes to look over the rule book last night. If I get some time for a really in-depth search and turn something up, I'll correct this.)

I'll agree that GW's wording on Might counting on re-rolls, but being spent after, yadda, yadda, yadda is confusing. Once again though, I think this is another case of them trying to (badly) cover any possible contingency. They're trying to be overly-clear, but I wouldn't read this to be any sort of expansion to the rules.

Everyone would prefer that your system be the way to do it, as you have less chance of wasting a Might point, but the critical point comes where you have to have a 6 to even to make a further roll.

I agree that it's badly worded attempt at being overly clear, but the intention really does seem that in all cases where you spend a might point, it is never wasted. I.e you always spend a might point with full knowledge of the upcoming result, (the only exception to this I can think of are abilities that make you spend MORE might or waste the might spent).

The only time that you have to spend a might blind, is in the instance of rolling a 6 and then needing a second higher roll.

The rules make clear that if the enemy forces you to re-roll the full result after you get a 6 then a 4, you get to see both of your results (the first and second dice) and then can apply a might point, which will affect both results with a +1.

I believe the convention should probably be B because of these factors (rolling one dice then the other is no different from rolling two separately coloured and assigned dice at the same time statistically) and the requirement to have a 6 first, when a re-roll isn't involved, but not another 6 first when a re-roll IS involved (as both dice can be re-rolled), and the very fact that might points effect BOTH rolls, makes me wonder. Maybe the intention of might points affecting both rolls is to simply lessen the chance that they are 'accidentally' wasted. If so I can live with that, but I am going to have to go over the rulebook section again when i get home on the needing more than 6's to determine whether you can not roll the second dice at the same time as the first. If you just require a result of a 6 and a 4, then might - in my mind - adequately fulfills that result if you can roll both dice at the same time initially.

Rirekon
15-04-2009, 14:52
It doesn't feel like rolling both dice at the same time is what is intended, mostly because it only works in a situation where you are making 1 roll - short of having dozens of paired coloured dice.

See my example above of rolling for multiple attacks needing 6/4 to hit, it's just not going to work making both rolls at once as you won't know which "first" die goes with which "second" die (short of the aforementioned paired dice sets).

[side note: I choked and used dice singular in that example... :(]

15-04-2009, 14:56
Is rolling any dice at the same time 'intended', or is it just 'fast dice rolling' like in fantasy? have to check the rules on that too. ;)

(By this point I hope all see I am more into the theoretical best line of the sand than the practical one. As the clever ones pointed out at the beginning, it's a very rare situation for it to come up involving might at all.)

Llew
15-04-2009, 15:01
First, when talking about rules you're not just dealing with statistical results. Those certainly inform the rules, but there's also clarity of rules and speed of play issues to deal with. If we take your idea that you can always make the second die roll regardless of the result of the first, then we introduce a huge complication. Each attack can always be rolled with 2 dice in place of one. If an opponent wishes to do that, you've now slowed each combat to rolling individual attacks. From a design standpoint, that is directly counter to the premise that this is supposed to be a fast wargame.

As far as the Might issue: You actually never spend Might blindly and you always get *some* payoff for using it. That payoff is not necessarily a wound though. In other words, your definition of "wasted" may be more restrictive than it should be.

If you roll a 6 on the first roll, you roll the second die. After you see the second die result, you decide whether or not to spend Might.

If you roll a 5, and you decide to NOT spend Might, you're done. Next combat.

If you roll a 5 and you decide to spend Might, you are rewarded with rolling another die. You went from getting no chance to hurt your opponent, to still having a chance to do so. On top of that, you have a better chance to succeed than if you hadn't spent the Might point in the first place. (There are precedents for this "no guarantee" payoff for using Might. Resisting spells comes to mind, where you spend a point of Might for a 50/50 chance at ignoring a spell effect.)

If you want to say that there are times that the payoff for using a point of Might may vary I'll agree wholeheartedly. Some uses are just better than others.

Again, the only, only, only instance that you can show where your proposed ruling would actually apply is in the case of a foe using a special ability against you. And odds are, he would have to spend a Might point in order to have a *chance* at depriving you of the value of your Might point. That seems pretty balanced. In the spirit of the game and for the clarity of the rules, I can't see having a special interpretation that may come up in very rare circumstances.

krashreed
16-04-2009, 18:09
I would go with answer A as well. The second required roll to wound on the 6/4 example, isn't a re-roll but an additional roll.

To me a re-roll would be if due to an ability you get to re-roll the misses, thereby changing the outcome of the dice. Then after the re-roll you would get to add might to modify your results of any 5+ dice to hits. Subsequently requiring you to make an additional roll of 3+ (due to your previously expended might).

lotrchampion
16-04-2009, 22:40
I believe what happens is this:

You must roll the first and second dice. The rules say you must roll all the dice (and reroll them if you want to do so and are able to) before applying Might; so you would roll dice 1 and then dice 2. You might score a 4 and a 2, requiring 6/4s, and decide to use 2 points of Might to wound. All use of Might is done AFTER the dice have been rolled. Essentially, you are trying to roll a '7', and since the second dice roll is part of this overall attempt to roll a '7', you roll the 2nd dice before deciding.

EDIT: Thats WotR and LotR SBG by the way. Both have similar wording, being along the lines of 'boost with Might after dice rolled'.

Sarah S
16-04-2009, 22:50
You must roll the first and second dice. The rules say you must roll all the dice (and reroll them if you want to do so and are able to) before applying Might; so you would roll dice 1 and then dice 2. You might score a 4 and a 2, requiring 6/4s, and decide to use 2 points of Might to wound. All use of Might is done AFTER the dice have been rolled. Essentially, you are trying to roll a '7', and since the second dice roll is part of this overall attempt to roll a '7', you roll the 2nd dice before deciding.

No, that's not true.

Note that when rolling To Hit, two rolls are sometimes required to inflict a hit (eg, 6/4). In this case the Might bonus is added to both rolls - so 1 Might point expended on the first roll automatically adds to the second roll.
Page 65, emphasis mine.

So clearly you are allowed to spend Might on the first roll.

When you consider the rule for Rolling To Hit it becomes pretty clear that you have to spend might to turn a 5 into a 6 before you can even roll the second die:

A score of 6/4, 6/5 etc means that you must roll a single D6 and score a 6, followed by a further dice that must score...

The second die follows the first only when it's a 6. No 6's, no second roll.