PDA

View Full Version : Magic: Lots or not?



Waaagh Grignak
12-04-2009, 09:01
What do you guys reckon, load up on magic or not?

The Magic of good seems less destructive than evil, more to do with slowing the advancing orcys than outright killings.

Is it worth trying to fit a stormcaller or 2 into my elf list or concentrate on just a couple of epic heros?

Your thoughts?

shadowz
12-04-2009, 13:37
I think magic can be a very good to investment, however with the elfs I would go with the epic heros. Two of them cost 125 for a level 2 caster compared to 100 for a level 1 caster. also thranduil for example also has a fight skill of 7 and 3 might so he can sub for both the stormcaller and a captain.
I personally play Isengard currently and have have 3 shamans and saruman in my 2000 pt list.
In my 1000pt list I normally just have 1 shaman and saruman.

also another thing that is nice about epic heros is than can move so you can really work the magic. ie cast 1 spell in a unit and then do you move and try to cast another spell. that only works if you can make your focus roll but thats another story.;)

Nu Fenix
12-04-2009, 15:01
I think Cirdan is a worth investment, as he is only 75 points, though comes with Command instead of Wilderness, although I prefere Command. Also, his ability to give his Formation a 6+ save is great too.

FuzzyOrb
12-04-2009, 17:00
Well, the good thing about the magic in WotR is that you don't really have to decide to either go "magic heavy" or to play "defensive on magic" or do "dispel scroll denying" or whatnot like it's in WHFB.
In WotR, you just have to decide if a caster can dash out enough spells for the points or if the caster knows the right spells you need for your particular army composition.
The fact that might is used to dispel only adds to this, because you don't buy characters with might especially for anti-magic, they have other, more important uses.
However, i think that most magic is indeed "good". Some spells (especially the non-destructive ones) add some very nice tactical flexibility.
There for, a caster should know a variety of spells and lores (duh) to just react to different threads (discouraging enemies here, destroying shields there, you get the drift).
So, as i said, the more magic you buy, the more magic you get, but a "lots or not" doesn't apply here. Buy how much you want or what you think you need, it's refreshingly easy:).

Sarah S
12-04-2009, 17:10
The nice thing is that the offensive magic that inflicts casualties will generally not inflict more casualties than a similar investment in missile troops or artillery would. In fact, missile troops and artillery is at somewhat of an advantage because of the Driven Back rule.

On the other hand, many of the other spells are very situational, and you won't often be able to make the best use of being able to cast many of the same spells again and again.

I think any level of magic you want to invest in can probably be made to work, but all levels will pose different challenges.

fubukii
12-04-2009, 17:47
good magic, seems more supportive. A great spell is the blessing of the valar, great on expensive elf formations

FuzzyOrb
12-04-2009, 17:58
A great spell is the blessing of the valar, great on expensive elf formations

Or on Uruk hai berserkers..*drools*:evilgrin:

Reinholt
12-04-2009, 18:12
My quick thoughts:

1 - Unit upgrade mages (whatever they are called, be it stormcallers, shamans, etc) seem pointless to me. 100 points is highly overcosted for them; there is almost always an epic hero that is either cheaper for the same thing, or marginally more expensive for much better.

I would never take one.

2 - There are some fantastically good magical abilities; I think the attack spells are far less important than things like reducing enemy courage, making your own units incredibly fast, and the like. It is the modifier spells that are pretty amazing, all things considered.

3 - Specific to good, the best magic is defensive. Gandalf (and the making units fight zero ability) is amazing, and so is Radagast for the cost. Specific to individual lists, the elves have a few solid characters as well (someone already mentioned Cirdan as a cheap caster).

4 - Specific to evil, the ringwraiths are amazing. The point value compared to what you get out of them in terms of spells and special abilities is a great trade-off. They are light on might, of course (the downside), but overall, they are pretty vicious, especially if you take the right ones. All of this for slightly more points than a unit upgrade for something vastly superior in all ways. It's a no-brainer.

Overall, I don't think you need magic to win, but having at least one magic to tactically buff your own units (especially for evil, more than good, who tend to have better duelist characters instead) is pretty solid.

VeriNasti
13-04-2009, 09:23
Spells help a lot in both SBG and WOTR - i have killed so many mumaks with command by moving them off the edge

msoong
14-04-2009, 06:19
I think Nazguls are the best spell caster for the point cost. Versatile and cheap...

Chainaxe07
14-04-2009, 13:48
Well, stormcallers are far from useless, but i would not take more than one.
Magic heavy epic heroes tend to perform better, and are usually better points for points.

Lord Asuryan
14-04-2009, 19:30
spelcasters are good-gandalf and radagast make a REALLY nasty combo. though wilderness isn't a great lore...

Crovax20
14-04-2009, 20:11
spelcasters are good-gandalf and radagast make a REALLY nasty combo. though wilderness isn't a great lore...

Dunno, you can sort of deny the enemy a forest to use for cover..

Lord Asuryan
14-04-2009, 20:52
or, maybe occasionally drive back an enemy unit into impassable terrain... but that's about it.

FuzzyOrb
14-04-2009, 21:04
or, maybe occasionally drive back an enemy unit into impassable terrain.

Impassable terrain is impassable:rolleyes:.
If a formation is driven back, it stops before impassable terrain, or the players can decide to alter the direction of movement.

Lord Asuryan
14-04-2009, 21:24
I thought that if a formation touches a unit or impassable terrain from being driven back, it was destroyed?

Sarah S
14-04-2009, 21:38
When it is moving because it is disordered. Not when driven back.

Lord Asuryan
14-04-2009, 21:43
Ok, so scratch another use from wilderness!

ser_hag
15-04-2009, 05:33
ringwraiths are a steal. having multiples in big brick units is money. getting first turn charges with wings of terror is just sick!

i used him for the first time the other day, and khardush is actually a lot of fun too. initially i was kinda unimpressed with the ruin list, but exsiccate followed by bolt of fire is a pretty solid offensive phase. exsiccate especially against bigger formations, if you roll high enough you can get a ridiculous amount of hits. and dark fury? egads! after a nazgul does strength from corruption, orcs can carve through just about anyone.

pall of night may well be the most annoying spell, i had my shelob shut down for 3 turns with it until i got out of arc of sight. the moral of that story is just because you can deploy from ambush doesnt mean you necessarily should :D

Edonil
15-04-2009, 05:40
actually, after looking over the Wilderness spell list, I'm kinda impressed. No, it's not great, but there's a lot of control over your opponent's army kind of stuff.

Crovax20
15-04-2009, 08:52
I played against a dwarf army that had radagast included. Now mind you the terrain was very much in his advantage with a forest in the middle and two pieces of impassable terrain on the sides. My army was basically funneled into two lanes where dwarf warriors with heroes were standing. Have fun trying to kill something with defense 8. Also in the first shootphase my shooting was crap and he instagibbed my assault ballista's and most of my crossbowmen with lucky dice. So I basically got shot to pieces by grey company and dwarf assault ballistas on a hill.

Boring game, but Radagast basically made sure ugluks raiders couldn't really go flank an enemy because the forest would pretty much spell doom. Also don't underestimate radagasts ability to give extra shoot dice to ranged units. 3 companies of greycompany hurt and then they get another extra shot dice.

Marauder
15-04-2009, 17:49
My quick thoughts:

1 - Unit upgrade mages (whatever they are called, be it stormcallers, shamans, etc) seem pointless to me. 100 points is highly overcosted for them; there is almost always an epic hero that is either cheaper for the same thing, or marginally more expensive for much better.

I would never take one.

2 - There are some fantastically good magical abilities; I think the attack spells are far less important than things like reducing enemy courage, making your own units incredibly fast, and the like. It is the modifier spells that are pretty amazing, all things considered.

3 - Specific to good, the best magic is defensive. Gandalf (and the making units fight zero ability) is amazing, and so is Radagast for the cost. Specific to individual lists, the elves have a few solid characters as well (someone already mentioned Cirdan as a cheap caster).

4 - Specific to evil, the ringwraiths are amazing. The point value compared to what you get out of them in terms of spells and special abilities is a great trade-off. They are light on might, of course (the downside), but overall, they are pretty vicious, especially if you take the right ones. All of this for slightly more points than a unit upgrade for something vastly superior in all ways. It's a no-brainer.

Overall, I don't think you need magic to win, but having at least one magic to tactically buff your own units (especially for evil, more than good, who tend to have better duelist characters instead) is pretty solid.

Agree on all points.

I think overall the game is quite balanced whether you focus on magic or not. If you don't bring much magic, you will likely have a fair number of heroes - who inherently help you resist magic. If you have your own casters you can cast counterspells or use your own magic offensively.

Its a fun easy system to use and I think the only people who get overwhelmed by it are those that have no clue what it can do.

ser_hag
17-04-2009, 03:12
Agree on all points.

I think overall the game is quite balanced whether you focus on magic or not. If you don't bring much magic, you will likely have a fair number of heroes - who inherently help you resist magic. If you have your own casters you can cast counterspells or use your own magic offensively.

Its a fun easy system to use and I think the only people who get overwhelmed by it are those that have no clue what it can do.


totally agree here. if you are a hero that doesnt have magic, by and large you will have ridiculously good abilities.

on a related note, what do people think of trying to resist spells? ive pretty well given up on it, might is too precious to squander on a coin flip.

Reinholt
19-04-2009, 04:47
Only if the spell would cripple me terribly. Otherwise, no.

Quannum
20-04-2009, 13:06
I've found that the Magic in WOTR offers a general not the ability to do anything game-breakingly overpowered like some of the dross in WHFB (Infernal Gateway, anyone?) but gives them options of doing strategic, situational things, e.g. pumping courage, or reducing shoot values. I for one, love it. Where WHFB magic is often big and stupid, this magic phase feels intelligent and tactical.

In game terms, taking one decent spellcaster like Saruman has its real advantages. IMO, Magic's main USE on the battlefield has to be draining opponent's Might points. Once they're gone, people feel a lot less secure!

Q

Axis
20-04-2009, 13:34
spelcasters are good-gandalf and radagast make a REALLY nasty combo. though wilderness isn't a great lore...

Personally, i think wilderness is an excellent lore. It isn't immediately obvious what to do, it isn't point and click. However, it is very disruptive! I really really like it!