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40kdhs
12-04-2009, 18:11
xxx: mounted character.
XXXcXXX: friendly unit WITH a unit champion 'c'
A: friendly chararacter

xxx charges a X unit with a joined character.
==============================

Instead of doing something like this
--->xxx
XAXcXXXX. <-----Diagram 1

some people do like this
xxx
XAXcXXXX. <----Diagram 2

Why?
Because they want to avoid a character in the challenge situation. In this situation, my opponent told me that i couldn't use my unit champion to issue or accept the challenge because he is not in btb contact with his mounted character.

Of course, my unit champion cant do that because my opponent DELIBERATELY doesn't want his mounted character to be in btb with him so that he can kill my wimpy character (A) EVEN THOUGH my unit champion is the 'fighting' rank.

Is it wrong to do that?

thank you for answering my question.

pootleberry
12-04-2009, 19:08
The attacker issues a challenge to the unit, not a specific character, then the target unit either refuses the challenge (and retires a character) or accepts the challenge and then moves their character to a position opposite the attacking character.

That's it.

The attacker doesn't get to choose the specific character that's attacked; this is where it's useful for the champion to accept on behalf of your powerful uber character to leave them free to batter the enemy unit.

Regardless of the number of characters in a unit there can only ever be one challenge ongoing at any one time.

I think that's correct.

rottahn
12-04-2009, 19:13
your opponent has to maximize the number of models in combat, if he has enough movement to do so. it does not say that he has to get your lord of uber-killy-death if he can still follow the previous rule.

in your unit that is 8 wide, his (presumably 4 wide?) model could charge you and therefore maximize models facing him(which seems like it should be 6 models fighting him) AND he can not get your character into combat if he has the movement to do so.


conversly, if your unit champion isnt in base to base(corners count) with something he cant issue a challenge, since he isnt fighting. however, the way your example above shows it, it LOOKS AS IF he should have been able to touch your character and your unit champ.

theunwantedbeing
12-04-2009, 19:55
You are forced to maximise contact.
So the end model of the smaller unit needs to be in corner to corner contact with a model at the end of the larger unit if your going to move them to the far edge.

_XXX
XXXXX

Like the above.

XXX
XXXXX

Is illegal, as only 4 models of the wider unit are in contact.

As for challenges, only those in base contact are elligble to be challenged, and elligible to accept the challenge as well.
So if you have a lord and a unit champion in the front rank, and only the champion is in base contact, only the champion can accept the challenge or issue one.
The lord can do neither, unless he has some special rule allowing him to do otherwise.

EldarBishop
12-04-2009, 20:12
Opponent can charge as illustrated below:

extreme 1
_xxx
XAXcXXXX

extreme 2
____xxx
XAXcXXXX

Or anything in between... any way that it happens, there must be 5 models engaged from the larger unit (you can attack corner to corner). This of course assumes that an 'x' is the same size in both units.

xragg
12-04-2009, 20:42
to reiterate:

..xxx
XAXXXcX

c cant accept/issue a challenge from xxx.
A can accept and issue a challenge.

edit: another game I play allows it and has alot of other similar rules which creeps into my wfb brain. Thats what I get for playing so many different game systems.

rtunian
12-04-2009, 21:20
this business about the champion being able to accept is wrong
page 77 big rule book:

Also note that in order to participate in a challenge, either to issue it or to meet it, a character must be fighting in combat already. this means that the model must actually be positioned base-to-base against an enemy model. a character that is not already fighting, for example because he is in the front of a formation which has been attacked in the rear, cannot take part in a challenge.

if the champ is not in combat he can't accept. to prevent having a champ that is not able to protect your hero, keep your hero and champ close to each other

garythewargamer
13-04-2009, 04:13
I think it has all been explained pretty well. At least I understand it.

Devil
13-04-2009, 06:34
So long as you are on the same side of the unit as the challenge is issued from and the character is in base to base with an enemy he can accept the challenge

narrativium
13-04-2009, 10:41
No, the challenge can come from anywhere in the combat. You don't have to be on the nearest side of the participating units, just in base contact with an enemy.

Necromancy Black
13-04-2009, 10:58
Although I think it does say the two challengers have to be able to move to be in base to base contact.

Could be wrong with that, have to double check.

rtunian
13-04-2009, 16:10
it says to move the challenge accepter into base to base with the challenger, and if that's not possible, to move the challenger.

40kdhs
13-04-2009, 17:36
this business about the champion being able to accept is wrong
page 77 big rule book:

Also note that in order to participate in a challenge, either to issue it or to meet it, a character must be fighting in combat already. this means that the model must actually be positioned base-to-base against an enemy model. a character that is not already fighting, for example because he is in the front of a formation which has been attacked in the rear, cannot take part in a challenge.



The challenge rule is not clear in this case. Please look at the underlined and bold sentence. The key word here is 'enemy model' which could be any model in the fighting rank because it doesn't explicitly say 'character'.

The rule is clearer if it says that the character has to be btb contact with another character in order to issue / accept the challenge because you can't have one paragraph state about being btb contact with an enemy model and moving another character in btb with another one on the second paragraph. If you are already in btb with a character, why the hell do you need to move it again?

People can find a loop hole in exploiting this current rule because we have different base size in the game. Please look at the below digram.

xx
XXACXXXX

What happen if x base is little smaller compared to X and A? Even though you have a unit champion next to a character A, he can't accept or issue a challenge if your opponent DELIBERATELY doesn't let his character in btb contact with your unit champion or your nasty lord.

rtunian
13-04-2009, 18:58
that charge is STILL illegal for the reasons others have listed multiple times above. it does not bring into contact the largest number of bases.

regarding the challenge rule and your underlined/bolded sentence, you need to look at that sentence in the context of the paragraph that contains it. all other sentences in the paragraph explicitly reference the character that either challenges or accepts. because one sentence says "the model", this is not suddenly breaking the topic of the paragraph and inserting a new topic for 1 sentence, then returning to the current topic. any argument to the contrary doesn't hold water. only the very old have the right to break topic in a paragraph, and that's only because they can't remember what they were talking about in the previous sentence.

now, if that sentence wasn't in a paragraph talking specifically about characters, you might have something. alas, it is very clear as to which model "the model" refers.

rtunian
13-04-2009, 19:00
also, the character that issues a challenge does not have to be in base to base contact with the character that is being challenged. if this was the case, then there would NEVER be an instance where models would have to be moved around, because they would always already be touching. alas, there is a rule that says the challenged must move to be base to base with the challenger, and provides for the case where a challenged cannot do so, that the challenger must move (as i said above)

Bies21
13-04-2009, 19:05
Also don't forget characters (incl champs) can move into base to base with the enemy even if their side had lost combat.

narrativium
13-04-2009, 22:51
that charge is STILL illegal for the reasons others have listed multiple times above. it does not bring into contact the largest number of bases.It isn't illegal. It is possible for a charge to result in a situation where less than the largest possible number of models are in combat, if the charging model cannot achieve such a goal without moving further than their maximum movement characteristic. Only if the chargers' movements would allow them to get into combat with the maximum possible number, is it illegal for them to get into combat with fewer than this.

Beyond that you're going into clipping vs. sliding behaviours.

rtunian
14-04-2009, 01:07
in the situation as described initially, it seems apparant that its well within the charge distance. if they were not able to complete the charge any other way, then the question "don't they have to maximize models in combat?" wouldn't be valid, because the charge could be completed no other way.

in other words, if there's only 1 way for a charge to be completed, then the charge inherently brings the most models possible into combat, because any number greater than 0 is greater than 0. sounds silly to say it that way, but...

WightKing
14-04-2009, 09:49
You are forced to maximise contact.
So the end model of the smaller unit needs to be in corner to corner contact with a model at the end of the larger unit if your going to move them to the far edge.

_XXX
XXXXX

Like the above.

XXX
XXXXX

Is illegal, as only 4 models of the wider unit are in contact.

As for challenges, only those in base contact are elligble to be challenged, and elligible to accept the challenge as well.
So if you have a lord and a unit champion in the front rank, and only the champion is in base contact, only the champion can accept the challenge or issue one.
The lord can do neither, unless he has some special rule allowing him to do otherwise.

totally right! you have to maximize the opponents like it or not