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Victomorga
12-04-2009, 22:28
what is 40k's best kept secret?

what rule, combination of equipment, or strategy have you seen / do you use that you think most players either don't know about or overlook? how do you use it / have you seen it used to great effect?

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DISCLAIMER:
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PLEASE no easter egg hunting, no creative or suspicious rule interpretation, and nothing that has already been addressed in Q&As as not legit.

Grimtuff
12-04-2009, 22:32
Ah, that would be telling! ;)

Narf
12-04-2009, 22:38
i always forget my deathguard have blight grenades, and that my space wolves have counter attack, only really over looked by me though, i'm sure most other people remember quite well

SirSaladhead
12-04-2009, 22:44
You should buy 2 boxes of models when you need 1, because you assemble one pack standing so that they can shoot things better, while you lay the other pack down for the purpose of holding objectives...

Mr Hat
12-04-2009, 22:51
You should buy 2 boxes of models when you need 1, because you assemble one pack standing so that they can shoot things better, while you lay the other pack down for the purpose of holding objectives...

I hate you.

Treadhead_1st
12-04-2009, 22:54
You should buy 2 boxes of models when you need 1, because you assemble one pack standing so that they can shoot things better, while you lay the other pack down for the purpose of holding objectives...

You can't swap models around during the game; so you'd have to choose between lying down and not firing all game, or standing up but not gaining the "easter-egg" bonus of LOS rules; right at the start of the game.

I play Space Marines and Imperial Guard. With the new Guard book coming out, I won't comment on that for now. So, for Space Marines: personally I think Combat Tactics is the most overlooked bonus. If a combat isn't going your way, you can fall back out of combat (auto-rally) and be ready to shoot in your turn. So many people construct their armies around Special Characters, many of which replace Combat-Tactics with Chapter-Tactics, that this idea isn't often thought about.

It takes the strengths of ATSKNF and the fact Marines (particularly Tactical ones) are designed for close-ranged firefights, and have good initiative for getting away from a combat. Shoot at range, then get charged. The enemy is likely to win, but perhaps not to have wiped out the squad (even a squad of 5 marines is still deadly, so you can take 50% casualties), so the remnants then back off, and can either let fly and re-charge with Pistols or unload with rapid-fire (useful if the Special/Heavy weapon troopers live).

Narf
12-04-2009, 22:59
all good but you cant rally if an enemy is within 6 inch's of you, hence you need to roll a 10 or 11 to be away from combat if your opponent rolls averagly (3-4)

Mannheim
12-04-2009, 23:02
pretending to be a 'normal' hobby gamer, while using modeling to gain in-game advantages... but noone will suspect your underhandedness because your models look really cool.

The_Outsider
12-04-2009, 23:05
Best kept secret? The difference between a LD test and a moral test - the amount of times that catches out players that run fearless armies is unbelievable.

Kyrios
12-04-2009, 23:10
Would you like to explain that one?

BobTheZombie
12-04-2009, 23:25
Chaos Spawn: everyone ignores them because they're rubbish, but on the charge they can be irritating for your opponent and only poor rather than abysmal on occasion. Useful for tying up stuff. Same with Lesser Damons- send them at SM terminators, they'll strike first and still get a save. I find they eventually overcome a unit of 5 more often than not, then they can tie up another unit.

RichBlake
12-04-2009, 23:26
Would you like to explain that one?

All Morale Tests are a type of Leadership test, but not all Leadership tests are Morale tests.

Example:

Take a Morale test after losing combat = Leadership Test
Take a Morale test after suffering 25% casualties = Leadership Test
Take a Leadership test as your invulnerable save = Leadership test but NOT a Morale test
Take a Psychic test = Leadership test but NOT a morale test

A leadership test is where you try to roll under or equal to your leadership on 2D6. Morale tests are used in specific circumstances.

Fixer
12-04-2009, 23:27
Azreal of the Dark Angels is actually pretty good value for points when combined with the right units.

Compared to Vulkan of the Salamanders, he's 35 points more, has no heavy flamer or army rules, 4+ inv save.

He has instead a 4+ inv that extends to any unit he's in contact with, 2 more attacks in close combat, has one more wound, grants everyone in the army his Leadership and has a master crafted combi plasma

With a squad of company veterans with a mix of powerfists/power weapons launched from a land Raider, he can deliver a devestating charge similar to that of Vulkan + Thunderhammer terminators for around the same cost.

The_Outsider
12-04-2009, 23:29
Would you like to explain that one?

Fearless only ignore morale and pinning tests, not LD tests, so abilities that work via LD (like say, a DE hellmask) still work against fearless units.

Too many people assume fearless = ignore any and all LD rules except no retreat.

[edit] Bah, beaten like an egg.

Chairman_woo
12-04-2009, 23:31
Best kept secret? The difference between a LD test and a moral test - the amount of times that catches out players that run fearless armies is unbelievable.

True but it dosent seem to come up very often, usually only when a unit wants to do something special like use a psychic power.

The_Outsider
12-04-2009, 23:37
True but it dosent seem to come up very often, usually only when a unit wants to do something special like use a psychic power.

You would be surprised at the number of abilities that work via LD and not morale - especially in the older codices.

RichBlake
12-04-2009, 23:39
[edit] Bah, beaten like an egg.

Next time I'll let you beat me like an egg :p

Another secret of 40K?

Deodorant :p

The_Outsider
12-04-2009, 23:41
How about this - experience will trump anything you can put on the table anyday of the week.

Fixer
12-04-2009, 23:50
How about this - experience will trump anything you can put on the table anyday of the week.

Tell that the the 35 year old veteran fantasy gamer whos beloved Orcs and goblins got trumped by a newbie teenager with a powergamed Daemons of Chaos list :rolleyes:

Chaos and Evil
12-04-2009, 23:52
How about this - experience will trump anything you can put on the table anyday of the week.

Heh, tell another one! :D:rolleyes:

Lostanddamned
12-04-2009, 23:56
The most important rule; Which is, I believe, on page 5 of the rulebook.

So many people overlook it.

The_Outsider
12-04-2009, 23:57
Tell that the the 35 year old veteran fantasy gamer whos beloved Orcs and goblins got trumped by a newbie teenager with a powergamed Daemons of Chaos list :rolleyes:

I will once I see said person playing a game that isn't allergic to anything resembling game balance.

Not to mention last time I checked that wasn't 40k, whereas this thread is.

Dexter099
13-04-2009, 00:01
Flamers are the best kept secret. Everyone wants power weapons and plasma pistols, because-ooh! no armor save. But flamers are better and cheaper. One tiome my flamers vaped a squad of Khorne zerks, and the Chaos sorceror took down Kharn with Warptime.

RichBlake
13-04-2009, 00:08
How about this - experience will trump anything you can put on the table anyday of the week.

I haveto admit this made me chuckle too :p

It can go a long way to help you do well, but ultimatley this game is like 40% list building, 40% skill and 20% luck.


Flamers are the best kept secret. Everyone wants power weapons and plasma pistols, because-ooh! no armor save. But flamers are better and cheaper. One tiome my flamers vaped a squad of Khorne zerks, and the Chaos sorceror took down Kharn with Warptime.

Flamers on BS 3 models with S3 standard weapons are overlooked. I'm sure that there ar eplenty of stories of "one time my flamers did this" (like the time my 66 point Guard squad killed 300 points worth of daemons over 3 turns using a flamer and lasguns). However unles you're fielding like 3 flamers in a squad generally with anything BS4+ I'd go with plasma/melta (apart from sisters...).

Also flamers can be awkward, me and a friend managed to get an enemy squad in a crossfire with flamers, i would have kicked ass if it wasn't for the fact my flamer was touching his model so the only way I could hit the enemy squad at all was to fire at an angle and hit 2 whol marines (instead of the 9 I was aiming for)

The_Outsider
13-04-2009, 00:15
I haveto admit this made me chuckle too :p

The thing is I am dead serious.

jason_sation
13-04-2009, 00:51
Next time I'll let you beat me like an egg :p

Another secret of 40K?

Deodorant :p

I think it's a pretty well kept secret at my local store. :(

Fixer
13-04-2009, 00:56
The thing is I am dead serious.

Personally I'm one to believe that there's no transcendant level of skill that allows you to beat an experienced tournament player using an army superior to your own. There's only so much game experience can do. Experience may help you get your units where you want them and give you better judgement when to or when not to take risks but it will not make your opponent fail any more armor saves and it will not help to make your opponent make game losing mistakes.

When you come down to what makes a 40K player good at the game it comes down to knowing how to use the tools he has at his disposal to the best of his abilities and knowledge of other forces such that he's not suprised by any moves that he makes. There's a point where both players just don't make mistakes any more.

I play against some serious competetive gamers and there are games where both of us have played pretty much flawlessly and one side has won or lost simply because of dice rolls or because the army they were playing did not have the tools required to do the job they needed to do.

Sometimes the game hands you the job of nailing a board to the wall and all you have to do it with is dental floss and jelly babies. Which... is pretty much what trying to kill Nob bikers supported by a strong Ork list with a mechanised FoF Tau force feels like.

So, yeah... I've never been one to buy into the 'You can win any game against any army simply by being more awesome!' stuff.

LonelyPath
13-04-2009, 01:02
The Shrouding on GK models, it's amazing how many people seem to think they can sit back and shoot at them from long range only to discover yet again that they have to check if they can see them first.

Oh, and Blessed Ammunition for WH vehicles, I keep seeing people forgeting they have it all the time (at least when I see WH being played) and it's pretty useful with all the cover saves in 5th edition.

RichBlake
13-04-2009, 01:09
The Shrouding on GK models, it's amazing how many people seem to think they can sit back and shoot at them from long range only to discover yet again that they have to check if they can see them first.


Honestly now, the Shrouding has never once stopped my opponent shooting my Grey Knights in the last year and a half I've been collecting them. Don't get me wrong it's better then nothing but it's near impossible not to get range (assuming your grey knights are charging forward for CC).

On a Grey Knight related secret: Stormbolters. People think PA Grey Knights are a CC squad, they are wrong. They are an awesome shooting squad that's good in CC. There's a difference.

Edit: Wow I didn't know Sisters had that... however a twin-linked Heavy Bolter Immolator with blessed ammunition costs 90 points and will be next to useless vs MEQs. The TL Heavy Flamer can be shot if you move 12", works great against marines AND ignores cover saves. Only downside is short range, but if you're transporting sisters about...

Double Edit: Wooo! 1000 posts.

Treadhead_1st
13-04-2009, 01:30
Edit: Wow I didn't know Sisters had that... however a twin-linked Heavy Bolter Immolator with blessed ammunition costs 90 points and will be next to useless vs MEQs. The TL Heavy Flamer can be shot if you move 12", works great against marines AND ignores cover saves. Only downside is short range, but if you're transporting sisters about...


Give them Holy Promethium too, so that anything non-Fearless is likely to flee. Then just keep rolling up and staying within 6" and chase them off the board (whilst still flaming them if you feel like it).

Fixer
13-04-2009, 01:35
That's the terrifying thing about a Sisters army. No-one knows what they can actually do because they're so damned rare and hardly anyone plays them.

You see a bunch of chicks in powered armor, then all of a sudden they're invulnerable and killing you with rending flamers.

I think perhaps the entire Codex could be listed as 40k's best kept secret.

xinsanityx
13-04-2009, 01:41
The thing is I am dead serious.

I completely agree with Fixer. Experience and skill can help you if you've played over 100 games and your opponent has only played about 5, but once you start playing people that have been playing the game as long as you have it really does come down to dice rolls and army build. I'd say that in most settings this game is about 40% build 40% luck and 20% skill.

In 5th edition i think luck has a lot more influence than it did in the past. Almost every game I play OR watch is decided by what list the people bring, and what turn the game ends. Only when newcomers are playing does skill and experience come into play. In 4th edition I would have said the game breaks down to being 40% build, 40% skill and only 20% luck. The addition of every game ending on a random turn and the deletion of victory points really turned the outcomes into total crapshoots.

MadJackMcJack
13-04-2009, 01:49
The Shrouding on GK models, it's amazing how many people seem to think they can sit back and shoot at them from long range only to discover yet again that they have to check if they can see them first.



Reminds me of one of my early games, back when I played Tau. I went up against a Grey Knight army, but neither of us knew about the Shrouding rule due to inexperience :rolleyes: Needless to say, he got trounced badly by all my dakka.

But yea, I'd have to agree that the Witch Hunters and Daemon Hunters rules are the best kept secret, because they're the ones most likely to cause a "That does what!?" reaction.

Ozeor
13-04-2009, 01:51
Next time I'll let you beat me like an egg :p

Another secret of 40K?

Deodorant :p

I am more then willing to listen to more about this, because I prolly as well as many, assume all fearless units pass any test out there.

RichBlake
13-04-2009, 01:54
It can go a long way to help you do well, but ultimatley this game is like 40% list building, 40% skill and 20% luck.




I'd say that in most settings this game is about 40% build 40% luck and 20% skill.

In 5th edition i think luck has a lot more influence than it did in the past. Almost every game I play OR watch is decided by what list the people bring, and what turn the game ends. Only when newcomers are playing does skill and experience come into play. In 4th edition I would have said the game breaks down to being 40% build, 40% skill and only 20% luck. The addition of every game ending on a random turn and the deletion of victory points really turned the outcomes into total crapshoots.

I disagree there, 5th turn is one of the ones that requires the most skill. Do you break from cover and run to the objective to grab it and hope the game ends? Or do you wait and hope the game goes on?

You need to play turn 5 as if it were the last turn, yet be prepared to be able to carry on past turn 5 as well. I wouldn't say luck has a bigger infulence on this game then skill...


That's the terrifying thing about a Sisters army. No-one knows what they can actually do because they're so damned rare and hardly anyone plays them.

You see a bunch of chicks in powered armor, then all of a sudden they're invulnerable and killing you with rending flamers.


Great thing about being a Guard player is normal flamers kill me. Bring on as many AP3 or rending flamers as you like, makes no odds to me :p

tastytaste
13-04-2009, 01:59
As a Dark Eldar player the joy of seeing someone measuring range to my raiders and me having to tell them to shorten their tape measure 6" got to love night shields.

-nick

PS: I do them before hand what they do.

pwrgmrguard
13-04-2009, 02:08
PS: I do them before hand what they do.

There's a word missing there, but its funnier this way.
I like the amphibious rule on Chimeras. Rivers can't stop my overpriced-for-another-month-transports!!

The_Outsider
13-04-2009, 02:10
I am more then willing to listen to more about this, because I prolly as well as many, assume all fearless units pass any test out there.

There always has been a difference between LD tsts and morale tests - only in the very old wordings of fearless did they pass LD. The USR only mentions pinning and morale, not leadership.

Look into lots of abilities, you will be surprised how many weapons and powers say LD rather than moral.

Imperius
13-04-2009, 02:11
The true amount of fire power a Guard Platoon can have. 55 Guardsmen, shooting at full capacity. Twice.

That makes my 220 Guardsmen shoot up to 440 Lasgun shots per turn, 880 if the enemy is all miraculously within 12 inches of each platoon.

Capt_Jman
13-04-2009, 02:19
I always find it funny people think that a 120 point transport is a waste. My devilfish always seem to make it worth while.
Yes I usually have them with; SMS, DP, MT, TA. 7 str 5 shots at BS 4 while moving 6" over any terrain. Oh and it is usualy carring some nice troops too :)

Legionary
13-04-2009, 02:24
Seconding Guard lasgun fire. An opponent I play frequently has a habit of leaving expensive units of Chaos Marines within rapidfire range of lasguns. Every time he does he pays a heavy toll as handfuls of dice cascade down the table and wash away his unit.

I once finished off a Greater Daemon with two wounds caused by lasguns.

xinsanityx
13-04-2009, 02:26
I disagree there, 5th turn is one of the ones that requires the most skill. Do you break from cover and run to the objective to grab it and hope the game ends? Or do you wait and hope the game goes on?

You need to play turn 5 as if it were the last turn, yet be prepared to be able to carry on past turn 5 as well. I wouldn't say luck has a bigger infulence on this game then skill...




It's very hard to play turn 5 like it's the last turn and still be prepared for the game to go on. In most of the games I play and watch both players typically only have 1 or 2 squads left on the board. The only instances where this doesn't happen is when a newcomer is involved or one list build completely dominates the other list build. With only 1 or 2 squads left on the board each, you can't play like it's the last turn and prepare for the game to go on at the same time.

If both players have been playing for awhile and both build equally strong lists it will always come down to dice rolls. The tactics in this game are too simple for one veteran to be a better tactician than another veteran unless one of those veterans has the IQ of a chimp.

Just so you don't think I'm bashing 40k, I'll say that I honestly believe that tactics play little part in WHFB games as well. However, for WHFB i'd break it down as being 60% army build 20% luck and 20%skill.

MrBims
13-04-2009, 02:29
The true amount of fire power a Guard Platoon can have. 55 Guardsmen, shooting at full capacity. Twice.

That makes my 220 Guardsmen shoot up to 440 Lasgun shots per turn, 880 if the enemy is all miraculously within 12 inches of each platoon.

How exactly do you get quadruple lasgun shots for enemies being within 12 inches?

220 guardsmen with lasguns will fire 440 shots within 12 inches, unless we're talking about the new codex, in which case it would be a max of 660, not 880, and have to take into account the limited number of orders that can be given and the fact that they can fail.

Anyway...

Assuming 440 lasgun shots against T4, 3+, you can expect to kill only 24 Marines. And it is not exactly easy to have enemies within 12 inches of even a hundred guardsmen, so this is a pretty rigged equation.

I'm not going to lie, I used to believe the "1 lasgun is a joke, 100 is a nightmare" myth until I playtested it and did the math and realized it was complete garbage. A BS3 lasgun firing 2 shots at a Space Marine has a 10% chance of causing a wound. It takes 10 of those lasguns to be able to statistically ensure the death of a single space marine. Even against less armored units, like Orks, lasguns are garbage, with a lasgun having a 27% chance of killing an Ork. You fire 10 lasguns at an Ork boyz mob, congratulations, you kill 2 and three-quarters Orks.

The true amount of firepower that the Imperial Guard can have is in the number of special weapons they can field. People fear BS4 Plasmaguns and Meltaguns, and BS3 flamers. They don't fear lasguns, and for good reason.

Meriwether
13-04-2009, 03:00
The thing is I am dead serious.

I'm with you, my brother! Fight the dominant paradigm! Er, I mean, fight the dominant perceived paradigm with the actual dominant paradigm! (Catchy, isn't it?)

But no, seriously, I'm serious, too. I agree 100% with The_Outsider on this one... With the caveat that building an effective army list is part of 'skill'.


If both players have been playing for awhile and both build equally strong lists it will always come down to dice rolls. The tactics in this game are too simple for one veteran to be a better tactician than another veteran unless one of those veterans has the IQ of a chimp.

Just... not... true...

But there's no way I can convince you of that on some online forum. Suffice to say that I think you're wrong, and thus you think I'm wrong. :D


Just so you don't think I'm bashing 40k, I'll say that I honestly believe that tactics play little part in WHFB games as well. However, for WHFB i'd break it down as being 60% army build 20% luck and 20%skill.

Ugh. Don't even *start* posts like this... The whole thread will devolve into another "40K versus Fantasy" hate-fest.

Meri

Inquisitor Engel
13-04-2009, 03:08
Best kept secret?

Deep striking crisis suits. No one ever uses them around here and they wreak all kinds of havoc.

lantzkev
13-04-2009, 03:12
I'd say it's the master of forge with conversion beamer on bike... move and fire baby!

xinsanityx
13-04-2009, 03:21
Just... not... true...

But there's no way I can convince you of that on some online forum. Suffice to say that I think you're wrong, and thus you think I'm wrong. :D



I have alot of experience playing this game and i can say It... is... very... true...
To say it's not makes me think you've got one of two things going on for you.

The first could be that you've played very few games of 40k, both in 4th and 5th edition, and you're just a troll posting oppinions on something you really have no experience with (happens alot on the internet).

The second thing that it could be is that you're a raving GW and 40k fanboi and belittling either of them is a sin in your eyes.

Judging by your post count, and having seen some of the things you've posted on this forum in the past, I'm positive it's the second thing. The great thing about this is that all of your oppinions become completely obsolete in my mind. ;)



Ugh. Don't even *start* posts like this... The whole thread will devolve into another "40K versus Fantasy" hate-fest.

Meri

You telling someone else what they can and cannot post is a little arrogant IMO. The only reason I posted that last sentence was to give my ideas a little protection against raving 40k fanbois. I don't care which system is better, and I don't want to talk about which system is better. I was just showing that I have no personal hatred of 40k.

Meriwether
13-04-2009, 03:32
To say it's not makes me think you've got one of two things going on for you.

So instead of agreeing to disagree, you're going to try to make this about _me_, huh? :rolleyes:


Telling someone else what they can and cannot post is a little arrogant IMO.

Just trying not to get the thread de-railed, man. If that's arrogant, well, I guess I'm arrogant. And I never bathe. I unapologetically flatulate in public and then blame it on nearby nuns. I also eat babies and kick puppies -- or is that the other way around?

Either way, my particular loathesome attributes have no bearing on any point made by either of us.

*Now* can we agree to disagree?

Meri

Born Again
13-04-2009, 03:39
I'm not sure if this is exactly legal or not, if it is it's still definitely in bad taste. Nasty if you want to annoy the **** out of your opponent though. You take a mob of Kommandos, and upgrade them to have Boss Snikrot. Then attach Ghazghkull Thraka to the unit before the game begins. Result? Ghazghkull that can enter from reserve from the enemy's own table edge. :evilgrin: Horrible, I know, but if you don't mind never playing the person again it'd be worth it for the look on their face.

Thud
13-04-2009, 03:42
I'm not sure if this is exactly legal or not, if it is it's still definitely in bad taste. Nasty if you want to annoy the **** out of your opponent though. You take a mob of Kommandos, and upgrade them to have Boss Snikrot. Then attach Ghazghkull Thraka to the unit before the game begins. Result? Ghazghkull that can enter from reserve from the enemy's own table edge. :evilgrin: Horrible, I know, but if you don't mind never playing the person again it'd be worth it for the look on their face.

Sorta like outflanking Terminators in Land Raiders? :evilgrin:

Count de Monet
13-04-2009, 03:42
That you can have a good time even when things don't go your way in the game.

In fact, that you can have a good time *because* something didn't go your way in the game.

Fixer
13-04-2009, 03:56
But no, seriously, I'm serious, too. I agree 100% with The_Outsider on this one... With the caveat that building an effective army list is part of 'skill'.


Wait. Sorry... but wasn't his entire point that regardless of the army you play 'anything you bring to the table' being more experienced than your opponent will allow you to win.

Doesn't your caveat mean that you completely disagree with him? :)

Meriwether
13-04-2009, 04:07
Wait. Sorry... but wasn't his entire point that regardless of the army you play 'anything you bring to the table' being more experienced than your opponent will allow you to win.

Doesn't your caveat mean that you completely disagree with him? :)

No, as I am *positive* that it was not his contention that army list is *irrelevant*. I'm allowing his statement a bit of hyperbole.

(If I bring a well-balanced tournament list and you bring six squads of 30 Cyber-grotz (led by Grotsnik, at 8 points each), you're gonna lose regardless of how much better you are at the game. So in that sense I *do* disagree with this statement if he meant it categorically -- but I am quite certain that he didn't mean it categorically. Right, The_Outsider?)

A very good player with a weak (but not unreasonably stupid) list can and very often will beat a poor player with a strong (even very strong) list.

Meri

Providence
13-04-2009, 04:20
Best secret has got to be that Heavy Flamers arent Heavy Weapons, the amount of people around my area that think Heavy Flamers are Heavy Weapons is astounding.

adreal
13-04-2009, 04:21
That you can have a good time even when things don't go your way in the game.

In fact, that you can have a good time *because* something didn't go your way in the game.


Quoted for truth, just recently I was versing a mech nob army from hell, and I needed the first turn to open those transports and make him walk, well he stole the Initive and rushed forward. Insteaf of 'catting' out I decided to man up and go for his throat, point is we had one of the best games ever all because he stole the initive.....

He won the game but I easily put it down to the best game I have played all 5th ed

toxic_wisdom
13-04-2009, 04:46
"...Sorta like outflanking Terminators in Land Raiders ?.."

Where does this one come from ?

As for dirty secrets... if you really want to play Necrons as RAW then Warriors are still able to get WBB rolls against things like Lascannons, Rail Guns, and Demolisher Cannons - even without the aid of a Resurrection Orb.

WBB is denied by sources that ARE twice the model's Toughness. Unlike the rule for ID which is twice or better.

S8 Krak Missile denies WBB as 8 = 2x4
S9 Lascannon does not deny WBB as 9 =/= 2x4

Thud
13-04-2009, 04:53
Where does this one come from ?

I think it's Khan* who gives you Scouts* instead of Combat Tactics.

Terminators have Combat Tactics and can get a Land Raider as dedicated transport.



*Don't have the codex on me right now, so it could be another guy (Shrike, most likely) and it could be Infiltrate.

rebmonk
13-04-2009, 04:59
1) 3000 point games but you are only allowed 1 FOC. on a 6x4....and no apocalypse bs

It is truly an army vs army on the table, and tons of fun. plus you get to use so many toys and still have the troops to back them up.

2) Thunderfire cannons in drop pods


3) The special characters which mix up the FOC or give you new special rules (Master of the Forge and 6 Ironclad dreadnaughts for example) While people have theoryhammered them (minus nob bikers) you never really see these armies on the table.

Meriwether
13-04-2009, 04:59
As for dirty secrets... if you really want to play Necrons as RAW then Warriors are still able to get WBB rolls against things like Lascannons, Rail Guns, and Demolisher Cannons - even without the aid of a Resurrection Orb.

The OP specifically asked that we not engage in Easter Egging on this one!

Meri

P.S. Khan does not confer 'Scout'. He specifically confers the ability to Outflank to all units with Combat Tactics, including their dedicated transports -- which means that outflanking terminators in a land raider is very clear RaW.

Fixer
13-04-2009, 04:59
Khan gives outflank instead of Combat tactics, allowing you to outflank a squad of terminators in a land raider as long as you buy the land raider as a dedicated transport (thereby making it unable to contest objectives)

Shrike gives fleet.

Meriwether
13-04-2009, 05:12
Um, dedicated transports can still contest objectives. *ANYTHING* can contest an objective!

Meri

Warforger
13-04-2009, 05:53
No its Khan, oh and he doesn't give Scouts, he just gives Outflank.

Thud
13-04-2009, 05:56
Scouts, Infiltrate or just Outflank: My point was outflanking Terminators in Land Raiders.

Which may, or may not, be my next army.

Meriwether
13-04-2009, 06:02
Scouts, Infiltrate or just Outflank: My point was outflanking Terminators in Land Raiders.

Which may, or may not, be my next army.

Mmm... 1100ish points for one seven-man terminator assault squad and one seven-man regular terminator squad plus two land raider crusaders... Add Khan and a Chapter Master and you've got yourself a 1500 point one-trick pony of doom! :chrome:

Meri

Thud
13-04-2009, 06:11
Mmm... 1100ish points for one seven-man terminator assault squad and one seven-man regular terminator squad plus two land raider crusaders... Add Khan and a Chapter Master and you've got yourself a 1500 point one-trick pony of doom! :chrome:

Meri

My kind of army!

A shame I'll need two of those lame troop choices, though. :p

Meriwether
13-04-2009, 06:20
Yeah, they're a drag. Luckily you've got that 250 points to spend you up to 1750, eh?

Meri

Sekhmet
13-04-2009, 09:12
There always has been a difference between LD tsts and morale tests - only in the very old wordings of fearless did they pass LD. The USR only mentions pinning and morale, not leadership.

Look into lots of abilities, you will be surprised how many weapons and powers say LD rather than moral.

I like this and agree.

See Flayed Ones and the Deceiver for examples, although the Deceiver was FAQ'd recently which nerfed part of the relevant rule.

MadJackMcJack
13-04-2009, 09:53
I'm not sure if this is exactly legal or not, if it is it's still definitely in bad taste. Nasty if you want to annoy the **** out of your opponent though. You take a mob of Kommandos, and upgrade them to have Boss Snikrot. Then attach Ghazghkull Thraka to the unit before the game begins. Result? Ghazghkull that can enter from reserve from the enemy's own table edge. :evilgrin: Horrible, I know, but if you don't mind never playing the person again it'd be worth it for the look on their face.

Sadly not. Ghazghkull doesn't have Infiltrate, so if he joined a Kommando unit, they'd lose it too. Infiltrate is one to the special rules that can't be passed on to a unit/character joining whatever has the rule.

ichbala
13-04-2009, 10:15
Sadly not. Ghazghkull doesn't have Infiltrate, so if he joined a Kommando unit, they'd lose it too. Infiltrate is one to the special rules that can't be passed on to a unit/character joining whatever has the rule.

Its not Infiltrate, but Snikrots special rule called ambush
When snikrot and his unit comes available from reserve, they may enter from any board edge

Bunnahabhain
13-04-2009, 11:11
1) 3000 point games but you are only allowed 1 FOC. on a 6x4....and no apocalypse bs

It is truly an army vs army on the table, and tons of fun. plus you get to use so many toys and still have the troops to back them up.



3000pts in one FOC is very good.

Doing it on a 6x4 is not so. if you're playing a horde, you have a slight space issue.



I have game booked for just after the new codex is officially out. 3 k orks vs Guard on a 8x6. Not much 40k happens at this club, so it's a kind of demo geme, with 2 fully painted hordes.

Bodysnatcher
13-04-2009, 11:33
Anyone who uses Snikrot to ambush Ghazghkull, or any other character for that matter, deserves to have certain parts of their anatomy slammed in a fridge.

RichBlake
13-04-2009, 13:21
It's very hard to play turn 5 like it's the last turn and still be prepared for the game to go on. In most of the games I play and watch both players typically only have 1 or 2 squads left on the board. The only instances where this doesn't happen is when a newcomer is involved or one list build completely dominates the other list build. With only 1 or 2 squads left on the board each, you can't play like it's the last turn and prepare for the game to go on at the same time.


Yes it IS very hard to play turn 5 like it's the last turn yet still be prepared for the game to go on, that's why it requires skill.

I have seen people pull off wins with depserate last minute grabs, I've also seen people lose because their opponent was given a turn or two of breathing space and room for manvouvering. Usually though these are desperate tactics though, and while they do happen (and should, war is unpredictable) they aren't that common. Just common enough to keep you on your toes.

Also say all games ended on turn 7, you'd have no need to claim objectives before the start of your turn 7, now you have to start claiming on turn 5.


If both players have been playing for awhile and both build equally strong lists it will always come down to dice rolls. The tactics in this game are too simple for one veteran to be a better tactician than another veteran unless one of those veterans has the IQ of a chimp.

I disagree, and here might be one of the best kept secrets of 40K: Tactics matter.

If I'm playing against an opponent we might be equally good, with reems of plans and counter plans we have ready for the game. Every player has certain tactics they favour. My opponent may just pick the right ones to counter mine in that match. When you have two opponents of equal skill they should either: A) Always draw or B) have a 50/50 Win:Loss ratio. The chance factor means that A probably wont happen but B would do over a long period of time.


I have alot of experience playing this game and i can say It... is... very... true...


Mimicing a post you've taken offense to to try and be-little the poster, nice but cliched.


To say it's not makes me think you've got one of two things going on for you.

The first could be that you've played very few games of 40k, both in 4th and 5th edition, and you're just a troll posting oppinions on something you really have no experience with (happens alot on the internet).

The second thing that it could be is that you're a raving GW and 40k fanboi and belittling either of them is a sin in your eyes.

Judging by your post count, and having seen some of the things you've posted on this forum in the past, I'm positive it's the second thing. The great thing about this is that all of your oppinions become completely obsolete in my mind. ;)

Heh you've got Meeris totally wrong (that's my nickname for him). Meeris just always thinks he's right all the time (jokingly) but he's certainly not a "fanboi". I "defend" GW often on these forums because I find people criticise them too much, but also I've been down in my local store many a time telling my GW Manager that I should be running the company so everything is done properly.





The only reason I posted that last sentence was to give my ideas a little protection against raving 40k fanbois. I don't care which system is better, and I don't want to talk about which system is better. I was just showing that I have no personal hatred of 40k.

No, it does seem you have a big chip on your shoulder though..

arch_inquisitor
13-04-2009, 13:49
Ugh. Don't even *start* posts like this... The whole thread will devolve into another "40K versus Fantasy" hate-fest.


I'm sorry meri but talking about devolving the thread when you haven't even contributed to the OP's actual request is just kinda funny. :D

My favorite secret is SM Bolster Defenses you can take like 5 units that can increase a piece of terrains cover save by 1. So if anything negates the good ol SM 3+ amour save they can have a 3+ cover save.

Sam skywalker
13-04-2009, 14:01
Tyranid Raveners with devourers... Okies so its 50pts a model... Fire 6 shots each, admittedly only at str 3 but its still cool. Then it has 4/5 rending attacks at str 4... Fun!

I use 6 of them and they are awesome...

My favourite "secret" which I have posted before on these boards is from the previous marine codex that let you take 4 or 6 HQ choices. But im pretty sure you can do that in the new one.

I agree with the entire Witch Hunters codex. They are awesome!

Fleet of Foot termies... (with shrike)

The_Outsider
13-04-2009, 14:13
No, as I am *positive* that it was not his contention that army list is *irrelevant*. I'm allowing his statement a bit of hyperbole.

(If I bring a well-balanced tournament list and you bring six squads of 30 Cyber-grotz (led by Grotsnik, at 8 points each), you're gonna lose regardless of how much better you are at the game. So in that sense I *do* disagree with this statement if he meant it categorically -- but I am quite certain that he didn't mean it categorically. Right, The_Outsider?)

A very good player with a weak (but not unreasonably stupid) list can and very often will beat a poor player with a strong (even very strong) list.

Meri

You're right Meri - I didn't mean it in the sense that literally anything put on the table can be unstoppable with skill (as you say, a grot army will lose no matter how good you are).

It is so easy for people to get sucked into the internet's trend of "if it isn't powerfull in a raw sense, then it is crap" as this leads to A) very 2D armies and B ) loss of tactics and many of the most powerful abilities and weapons in the game are supportive in nature - they never directly deal damage themselves.

Having skill at 40k is a culmination of several diffrent aspects brought together in one package - the game really isn't rock/paper/scissors like the internat claims nor are the supposedly overpowered or underpowered forces quite as OP or UP as people think.

For example, orks are just as flawed as they were in the last codex, they emrely have a more well rounded lsit this time. necrons are not as gimped as many claim, they have merely had a shift in internal balance making a lot of previously unused gear far more valuable.

Sadly from how it comes across on the internet battlefield analysis (and psot game analysis) will soon become a lost art.

(This will make me sound arrogant, but I don't mean it to be so) Understanding how to do correct analysis for any situation (in a game or simply looking at a codex) is where a lot of "power" comes from and means that you can give out advice for forces you don't even play and it will be sound simply because every force works upon the same base principles, they merely have emphasis on certain aspects of play or get points breaks for units that promote such play (a good example being ork boys - they are cheap because orks fluffwise are hordes, so the list encourages that).

Umm.... [/armchair general] I guess.

SPYDER68
13-04-2009, 14:31
I think it's a pretty well kept secret at my local store. :(

It's sometimes more then a secret at some of the game shops ive seen.

JonnyX
13-04-2009, 15:06
So, new idea, the most devestating unit ive seen is a command squad on bikes with storm sheilds, thats a unit with a 3+ inv followed by a FNP save and toughness 5 and if u take shrike thats a first turn charge or u can take 4 meltas and go tank hunting (without shrike)

Meriwether
13-04-2009, 15:48
Heh you've got Meeris totally wrong (that's my nickname for him). Meeris just always thinks he's right all the time (jokingly) but he's certainly not a "fanboi".

LOL. Close enough. I don't think I'm always right -- but I don't post unless I think I'm right!

xinsanityx clearly has never seen my railing against the concept of strict RaW, inconsistent and poorly written rules, the lack of playtesting, horrendous FAQs, etc. Because I disagree with him here he has decided that I am a fanboi, so I'm a fanboi -- and thus nothing I say matters. Classic ad hominem. He made himself look like an idiot, and I think we all know that now.

You can let it go, RichBlecch. I can take care of myself. :D


I'm sorry meri but talking about devolving the thread when you haven't even contributed to the OP's actual request is just kinda funny. :D

I did contribute! I agreed with The_Outsider! He had already said _the_ best-kept secret, so I was throwing my support behind him.

If you must have another contribution, try storm guardians with two flamers and a destructorlock in a wave serpent. One of the singly most destructive units in the game, especially with doom support. Tank shock with the WS to bunch a unit together, then burn, baby, burn!

Or that the counter to the "nob biker list of doom" is buildings.

Or that there is more than one way to play this game, and they're all fine.

Or that "getting its points back" is perhaps the worst way to determine the worth of a unit.


It is so easy for people to get sucked into the internet's trend of "if it isn't powerfull in a raw sense, then it is crap" as this leads to A) very 2D armies and B ) loss of tactics and many of the most powerful abilities and weapons in the game are supportive in nature - they never directly deal damage themselves.

Even moreso, people think that if it isn't powerful _on its own_, it must be crap.


necrons are not as gimped as many claim, they have merely had a shift in internal balance making a lot of previously unused gear far more valuable.

We'll have to disagree on the Necron nerf. :D


Sadly from how it comes across on the internet battlefield analysis (and psot game analysis) will soon become a lost art.

It won't, though. Good players who 'get it' will continue to be good players who 'get it', and some people will learn from them. This game is not defined by the internet.

And don't worry, you didn't sound arrogant. (Though perhaps I am a poor judge...)

Meri

arch_inquisitor
13-04-2009, 16:21
If you must have another contribution, try storm guardians with two flamers and a destructorlock in a wave serpent. One of the singly most destructive units in the game, especially with doom support. Tank shock with the WS to bunch a unit together, then burn, baby, burn!

Or that the counter to the "nob biker list of doom" is buildings.

Or that there is more than one way to play this game, and they're all fine.

Or that "getting its points back" is perhaps the worst way to determine the worth of a unit.


Now was that so hard.:D

Another favorite of mine is scarab swarms, people still underestimate just how annoying these things can be.

Meriwether
13-04-2009, 16:26
Now was that so hard.:D

Of course it wasn't hard. It also wasn't _necessary_. The *best kept secret* was already stated. :P

Meri

Charax
13-04-2009, 16:36
Judging by the number of people who make a big deal about it, I would say 40K has two best kept secrets:

1) The TLOS rules are really not as complicated as you think they are.
and
2) 40K's been using True Line of Sight since Rogue Trader

Grazzy
13-04-2009, 16:42
Whoever said that strictly speaking necron warriors do not get instakilled by lascannon is actually right. Tyranid Warriors in synapse range had the same wording i think, and i am 90% sure that it was said in an FAQ that they do indeed ignore weapons not exactly double strength.

Eblis_Dead_Forever
13-04-2009, 16:45
1) That you need the following things to play a game, a tape measure, templates, dice, a rule book and a codex.

2) Army lists can and should be written the day before the game.

3) The entirity of the Black Templar Codex, explaining that if they pass a moral test they move closer is always funny.

arch_inquisitor
13-04-2009, 17:05
Of course it wasn't hard. It also wasn't _necessary_. The *best kept secret* was already stated. :P


Sorry my bad, I was talking about the other posts, you know the one sentence agree or disagrees. Normally I wouldn't call anyone on that, but too many and one dilutes the thread.

No offense intended.

Another secret! Just came to me, the fact that you can take a Chaos undivided, Daemons army and still have it be fluffy.
Their I said it.:p

Meriwether
13-04-2009, 17:20
Judging by the number of people who make a big deal about it, I would say 40K has two best kept secrets:

1) The TLOS rules are really not as complicated as you think they are.
and
2) 40K's been using True Line of Sight since Rogue Trader

YES! Good one!


No offense intended.

No worries -- none taken.

Meri

Ozendorph
13-04-2009, 18:31
Best kept secret? imho it's the number of useful things you can do with a Rhino.

Oh, also very few people know that the squats are actual...*aaaaaagh*

Meriwether
13-04-2009, 18:46
By jove! It looks like Ozendorph's been poisoned! I wonder why? He was merely making a comment about a particular exercise. I mean, I do squat-thrusts daily and I've never... *Ack!*

Meri

The_Outsider
13-04-2009, 18:48
and i am 90% sure that it was said in an FAQ that they do indeed ignore weapons not exactly double strength.

It was in a FAQ the spanish GW site - that got pulled pretty quickly.

AmBlam
13-04-2009, 18:54
Squats are coming back ;)

RichBlake
13-04-2009, 19:02
Squats are coming back ;)

If they came back I'd travel to Nottingham and burn down war hammer world and crush all the master copies of the models along with the moulds into a fine dust, sprinkle it on dog food, feed it to dogs and then have their poop burned.

A dwarf archtype race could work in 40K. The squats didn't :p

ReveredChaplainDrake
13-04-2009, 19:47
Some of the best kept secrets:
-Codex Creep is real.
-GW batreps for inaugural codecies are only posted if the new codex wins, which often results in many games being played until the army wins.
-GW is out to make a profit.
-LotR model conversions are technically tournament-illegal on the grounds of copyright infringement. Wisely though, most people disregard this stupid rule anyway. The current interpretation is that GW can't put pictures of your Balrog-winged Hive Tyrants or Daemon Princes in WD.

Pink Horror
13-04-2009, 20:38
Some of the best kept secrets:
-Codex Creep is real.
-GW batreps for inaugural codecies are only posted if the new codex wins, which often results in many games being played until the army wins.

If secret #1 was true, secret #2 would be false, because that would mean the new codex loses more than it wins: no creep. And couldn't they just fudge a few dice rolls and make some bonehead decisions to throw the game?

LonelyPath
13-04-2009, 23:11
Honestly now, the Shrouding has never once stopped my opponent shooting my Grey Knights in the last year and a half I've been collecting them. Don't get me wrong it's better then nothing but it's near impossible not to get range (assuming your grey knights are charging forward for CC).

On a Grey Knight related secret: Stormbolters. People think PA Grey Knights are a CC squad, they are wrong. They are an awesome shooting squad that's good in CC. There's a difference.

Edit: Wow I didn't know Sisters had that... however a twin-linked Heavy Bolter Immolator with blessed ammunition costs 90 points and will be next to useless vs MEQs. The TL Heavy Flamer can be shot if you move 12", works great against marines AND ignores cover saves. Only downside is short range, but if you're transporting sisters about...

Double Edit: Wooo! 1000 posts.

The Shrouding has helped a unit that's guarding a home objective more than a few times. SM players taking a MotF love long ranges, see them worry then about having to close with your GK to shoot them, hahaha.

Gotta hand it to them storm bolters though, they can cut through orks, eldar, tau and many other things faster than a hot knife through butter.

I tend to reserve the HB Immolators for more shooty units, they work wonders for ignoring cover saves the enemy gets from shooting through units and so on.

HF Immolators with Holy Promethium is nice too, or it was, I've not really used it myself and not seen others use it in a while either. Is it worth taking these days?

@ ReveredChaplainDrake - there have been as many losses and draws as there have been wins in batreps iirc.

The_Outsider
13-04-2009, 23:31
@ ReveredChaplainDrake - there have been as many losses and draws as there have been wins in batreps iirc.

Unless you are DE - they have lost everyone (i'm pretty sure of this, though obviously I could be wrong).

They lost their release batrep.

They lost versus catachans using jungle figth rules (no, really?)

They lost versus eldar in shadows in the jungle.

They lost versus tau when the current tau codex was released.

They lost helping some chaos forces against some BT (which iirc had a fairly chunky bunker).

I cannot think of anymore batreps they have been in.

RexTalon
14-04-2009, 00:20
Best kept secret? The first rule.

isaac
14-04-2009, 00:53
Don't talk about squats?

LonelyPath
14-04-2009, 01:03
They lost helping some chaos forces against some BT (which iirc had a fairly chunky bunker).

iirc that bunker was also pretty loaded up on gun platforms as well.

Born Again
14-04-2009, 10:14
The most important rule; Which is, I believe, on page 5 of the rulebook.

So many people overlook it.

Quoted for Truth.


Sorta like outflanking Terminators in Land Raiders? :evilgrin:

No, outflank moves select a random edge, Snikrot's rule gives you a choice. It's just that little bit nastier.


Anyone who uses Snikrot to ambush Ghazghkull, or any other character for that matter, deserves to have certain parts of their anatomy slammed in a fridge.

Indeed, as I said it's nasty and I don't intend to try it unless I feel like being a total ass. The most alarming thing about it, though, is the guy who suggested it to me was of an age where said bits of his anatomy may well not be sufficiently developed for fridge-slamming... they start the cheese so young these days...

Bunnahabhain
14-04-2009, 14:47
That the rules, codexs etc are a set of guidelines, not lore writ in stone, and you're free to alter them as see fit.

I see that as part of P5 really.

Ianos
14-04-2009, 15:57
That power lists and cookie cutters make one predictable and one dimensional and a balanced list used by a skilled player>>net lists of doom

sliganian
14-04-2009, 16:30
My 2 cents:

The 'Go to Ground' rule. I've yet to use it, mostly because I forget about it. I wonder if it could have saved a unit here or there if I had remembered it (3+ cover save is decent).

Adra
14-04-2009, 16:38
Chaos Spawn: everyone ignores them because they're rubbish

Haha i just laughed out loud in work from this line!!!!

Zedsdead
14-04-2009, 16:40
"tank shock" and how Extra Armour makes it all the more powerful.

One of the least used yet unbelievably powerful things ive seen used in this game.

Codsticker
14-04-2009, 16:54
I disagree there, 5th turn is one of the ones that requires the most skill. Do you break from cover and run to the objective to grab it and hope the game ends? Or do you wait and hope the game goes on?

You need to play turn 5 as if it were the last turn, yet be prepared to be able to carry on past turn 5 as well. I wouldn't say luck has a bigger infulence on this game then skill...

In that example luck is equally important (maybe even more); no matter how skilled a player he/she cannot predict that die result. Where the skill and experience comes in, is managing or influencing potential outcomes which, over the course of several games, should prove to be more important.

sydbridges
14-04-2009, 17:02
(If I bring a well-balanced tournament list and you bring six squads of 30 Cyber-grotz (led by Grotsnik, at 8 points each), you're gonna lose regardless of how much better you are at the game.

Idea stolen. Mwhahahaha.

Meriwether
14-04-2009, 17:03
Idea stolen. Mwhahahaha.

Yes, convince your opponents to use it and you will be unstoppable!!!

Meri

sydbridges
14-04-2009, 17:08
Yes, convince your opponents to use it and you will be unstoppable!!!

Meri

It'll totally work. 180 cybergrots will look awesome, so I should be able to talk at least one opponent into trying it as "it looks awesome."

Of course, then I've got to play against 180 cybergrots. This is a tiny flaw with this plan. And I've got to make and paint all 180 of them - I'll probably get bored with painting them around robogrot 60.

PapaDoc
14-04-2009, 17:35
Best kept secret... campaigns.

Don't like bringing the same lists against the same lists all over again?
Tired of having really cool units on the shelf because their rules suck?
Bored of playing annihilation, secure and control with the same ork army for the 679 time?

WELL HOLY HOT ***** FROM HELL! YOU CAN FIX IT ALL WITH RUNNING A CAMPAIGN!!!

You don't have to start big either. Two players is just enough.

But yeah campaigns are fun.

The_King_Elessar
14-04-2009, 18:08
"tank shock" and how Extra Armour makes it all the more powerful.

One of the least used yet unbelievably powerful things ive seen used in this game.

QFT! I ran a whole SM tactical squad off the board with a Wave Serpent recently - much hilarity ensued!

Getting back to nasty but legal combos - Ork Big mek, Mega-Armour, Burna. Check it out if you don't believe me (but not on ArmyBuilder, as it doesn't allow it)
It's hardly broken, but a nasty shock for someone who doesn't expect flamed by your Calgar-a-like!

infernus31
14-04-2009, 19:09
The horror Psychic power coming free on Hive Tyrants- saved me from quite a few unlucky dice rolls by terminators/striking scorpion etc.

maelstrom66669
14-04-2009, 19:22
I think the biggest secret in 40k is that all Space marines are really just Orks in disguise, and all Orks are just space marines in disguise also.