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linkai
13-04-2009, 04:37
If YOU were in charge of modifying part of the Eldar codex, what do you think Swooping Hawks' PRIMARY role should be?

Warforger
13-04-2009, 04:56
If they were troops, GW obviously did something wrong

Give them Shuriken Catapults and the Guardians las blasters. Actually everyone in the squad having Sun rifles in the squad would be much better and would make the squad more considerable in taking (sure striking scorps are also Anti-Swarm, but Banshee's are Anti-MEQ and so are Dark Reapers).

Mewy
13-04-2009, 05:00
I would change them too/keep them as Anti-Swarm/GEQ and keep the haywire grenades for tanks.

Pink Horror
13-04-2009, 05:19
Harassing - I would keep them as a unit with a bunch of tricks and mobility as their specialty - not anti-anything.

Hellebore
13-04-2009, 05:22
I changed the entire codex so you'd have to see this unit in context with the army but I did this:

You can have a max of 6 in the unit and they cost 25 pts each.

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
Swooping Hawk 4 4 3 3 1 5 1 9 3+
Striking Hawk 5 5 3 3 1 6 2 9 3+
Exarch 6 6 4 3 2 7 3 10 2+
Exarch Lord 7 7 4 4 3 8 3 10 2+
Unit Type: Jump Infantry.
SPECIAL RULES
Fleet, Turbo Boost.
Wargear
Hawk Aspect Armour
Grants a 3+ armour save and mounts a twin-linked shuriken
pistol in the arms and a grenade pack allowing the unit to
drop grenades on the enemy. During the movement phase
the unit may drop one grenade each on one enemy unit
they have flown over. If they have Deep Struck that turn
then they may choose any unit on the table. Treat the attack
as a multiple barrage with the following profile:
Range Strength AP Type
- 5 5 Assault 1,
Blast, Pinning
Lasblaster
The lasblaster has the following profile:
Range Strength AP Type
24" 5 5 Assault 2
Blaster Pistol
The Blaster pistol has the following profile:
Range Strength AP Type
12" 5 5 Pistol,
Assault 2
Hawk's Talon
These might laser weapons are powerful enough to destroy
light vehicles. It has the following profile:
Range Strength AP Type
30" 6 5 Assault 4
Sunrifle
The sunrifle is powerful enough to slay whole squads with a
blinding burst of laser beams. It has the following profile:
Range Strength AP Type
24" 5 5 Assault 6,
Pinning
Haywire Grenades
These are used to destroy enemy vehicles by shorting out
their electrical systems and igniting their fuel. Each model
may make a single attack, if it hits roll a dice:
1=No Effect 2-4=Glancing Hit 5-6=Penetrating Hit
Exarch Powers
Skyleap
The unit leaps into the air leaving their enemies milling in
confusion. At the beginning of the eldar turn so long as the
unit is not Falling Back they may immediately Deep Strike
as if they had just come on from reserve.
Intercept
The unit is so skilled at destroying enemy vehicles that
they can even bring down enemy aircraft. The unit never
requires worse than a 4+ to hit a vehicle.
Winged Slayers
Shrieking like their namesake the unit dives toward the
enemy raking them with laser energy before flying past at
breathtaking speed. If the unit turboboosts it may shoot any
one unit it flies over as it does so.

althathir
13-04-2009, 05:54
I think GW made a mistake by leaving the grenade pack rule in for hawks as I feel it makes them a balancing nightmare for them, I would either make the blast more effective (and possibly a one shot to make up for this) or make the lasblasters +1 power and make them the mobile long range infantry, either option would give them a more clear role in the codex, as right now, their pretty much just worse warp spiders.

Thud
13-04-2009, 05:57
I like what you did there, Hellebore. I hope GW do something similar.

Pink Horror
13-04-2009, 06:00
What, is that Movie Eldar? 2+ save scorpions with rending and fleet for 20 points each? Witchblades ignore armor? And, of course, S5 on all the hawks? Wow.

Hellebore
13-04-2009, 06:04
What, is that Movie Eldar? 2+ save scorpions with rending and fleet for 20 points each? Witchblades ignore armor? And, of course, S5 on all the hawks? Wow.

No, that would WS10 BS10 I10 guardians. :p

The stats are to compensate for intentionally low unit sizes. 2+ save rending fleet scorpions aren't that awesome when they still have T3 and can only have 6 models in the entire unit.

Unit size restrictions can have a dramatic effect on unit capability. Take the hawks I posted for example. A full unit of ten of them would be nuts. However, only being able to take 6 means their maximum output is high but their survivability isn't.

I've seen this particular army get obliterated by guard simply because it had 40 models in it all T3.

If the prices of individual models went up, so would their unit sizes which isn't what I wanted to do.

As for the technology, eldar tech is supposed to be superior not equal to or worse than. Most current eldar weapons are either equal to or worse than Imperial equivalents, few are flat out superior.

But, each to his own. I'm tired of seeing 60 guardians get mowed down termagant style in an army that prides itself on protecting its citizens. Elite and high tech is the name of the game. T3 can be a real equaliser no matter what the gear they carry is.

Hellebore

Warforger
13-04-2009, 06:12
Actually, I'd like to see Hawks bring back the old 2nd ed grenades, by that I mean 6" range blast templates, or 12" depending on if you think its OP'd or not.

Pink Horror
13-04-2009, 06:27
Lots of armies take small units on purpose, and they work fine. Where's the thing about 6 models in the entire army? I thought you could take 3 units of them. And the hidden lord is also sick. And saying that small unit size reduces the total number of models in the army makes no sense at all. Only point cost would do that, unless you just pain run out of unit slots.

Hellebore
13-04-2009, 06:35
Lots of armies take small units on purpose, and they work fine. Where's the thing about 6 models in the entire army? I thought you could take 3 units of them. And the hidden lord is also sick. And saying that small unit size reduces the total number of models in the army makes no sense at all. Only point cost would do that, unless you just pain run out of unit slots.

Yes, that was a slip, I've edited it to in the whole unit.

You could take 18 swooping hawks, all, T3 in the whole army. Each unit costs 150pts and if you take an exarch they go upwards of 250pts.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue the army list. It's not perfect, nothing is, but having watched people play with it multiple times it's far from an unbeatable force. Funniest thing was watching a guy try and max out his scorpions with karandras and an exarch lord taking most of the army's points only to see the whole unit get wiped out from rapid fire and assault. Fearless karandras was taken down by No Retreat! because the T3 scorpions were all killed and he couldn't cause enough damage to win combat.

That'll learn him to spend all his points on so few models.:D

Hellebore

Meriwether
13-04-2009, 06:37
Hellebore,

Neat alternate codex. I like it a lot. I'm not convinced that the points are right (they seem a bit undercosted to me), but it would require a great deal of playtesting to be able to say so with any real confidence -- and to be honest that's just not going to happen on my end.

In general, it looks to match the fluff much better, without going to the extremes of 'movie marines'.

And as to the OP, I agree that Hawks shouldn't exactly be specialists, but should be a good harassing force. Honestly, make their guns S4 and haywire grenades as Hellebore's codex states, and they'd be just fine!

Meri

Hellebore
13-04-2009, 06:48
Hellebore,

Neat alternate codex. I like it a lot. I'm not convinced that the points are right (they seem a bit undercosted to me), but it would require a great deal of playtesting to be able to say so with any real confidence -- and to be honest that's just not going to happen on my end.

In general, it looks to match the fluff much better, without going to the extremes of 'movie marines'.

And as to the OP, I agree that Hawks shouldn't exactly be specialists, but should be a good harassing force. Honestly, make their guns S4 and haywire grenades as Hellebore's codex states, and they'd be just fine!

Meri

I was fortunate enough to have several friends who wanted to playtest it, although not as much as I would like. This isn't the most recent version as that testing did bring up certain problems that I've tried to address.

Also, I didn't want to turn this into a pimp my army list thread, rather I thought the stats I posted for the swooping hawks needed context before I got burnt alive for them.:D

Also, contextually, I've disagreed with other army lists (yes, including marines) and have been writing my own for them as well.

But then, I also rewrote the core game to use D10s so I could have S & T 5 space marines as well.

My problem is that GW's army lists require miniature sales and they cannot sell 1 guardian for 15 dollars so that guardian can't be worth to much in the army so you must buy lots. The same is true of marines etc. In my ideal game, every army would represent their story perfectly. 15-20 space marines in an army, two dozen aspect warriors, a billion orks (:p) etc.

It's just the eldar seem to be the least representative especially with their guardian shield wall so I focused on them first.

Anyway, back to regular programming. At the least Hawks should be dropping bombs as they fly around, ones that cause pinning and/or some sort of disruption. They should be harassing units that really **** off the enemy.

Hellebore

Pink Horror
13-04-2009, 07:04
Anyway, back to regular programming. At the least Hawks should be dropping bombs as they fly around, ones that cause pinning and/or some sort of disruption. They should be harassing units that really **** off the enemy.

Hooray we agree! I think something like the marine artillery gizmo would be nice - difficult terrain. The weapon does not have to cause many wounds: S3, AP- would do it, as long as there is a side effect. One large blast for quick play. Maybe, you can re-roll one wound for every model in the unit, so the number matters.

Your list does have the ability to make people waste points on super models. The trouble is if, instead of play-testing all the goodies, someone maxes out on all the under-costed, relatively basic stuff. And why does "fluffy" always mean way more powerful?

Hellebore
13-04-2009, 07:10
Hooray we agree! I think something like the marine artillery gizmo would be nice - difficult terrain. The weapon does not have to cause many wounds: S3, AP- would do it, as long as there is a side effect. One large blast for quick play. Maybe, you can re-roll one wound for every model in the unit, so the number matters.


Some nice ideas there. The Tremor rule would be a cool one. They could drop sonic mines or something.



Your list does have the ability to make people waste points on super models. The trouble is if, instead of play-testing all the goodies, someone maxes out on all the under-costed, relatively basic stuff. And why does "fluffy" always mean way more powerful?

Unfortunately that's GW's fault when they say that apart from the necrons the eldar are the most advanced race in the galaxy and then give you an army list that really isn't. It's a sad day when you would rather trade in a shuriken catapult for a lasgun and call it trading up. :p

Helleboer

Meriwether
13-04-2009, 07:11
HooAnd why does "fluffy" always mean way more powerful?

I don't know that it _always_ does.... But Hellebore explained his position on this one.

A. Eldar have the highest technology in the galaxy. Their army should reflect this.
B. Eldar are primarily concerned with protecting the lives of as many Eldar as possible, so cannon-fodder units are simply un-fluffy.
C. "More powerful" would only be true if points were not adjusted accordingly.

Meri

ehlijen
13-04-2009, 08:21
A: Background is just background and subject to change if that'd make a better game or cooler models. GW never created any explicit ranking of tech levels, so it could be eldar, necrons or even orks on the top. And how would you rank the nids?

B: While they may not use cannon fodder, surely the eldar will appreciate the benefit a tarpit unit can bring as bait for traps? Also, they do use large portions of militia and militia tends to be best at being cannon fodder/tarpits no matter the race.

C: There comes a point when things are so powerful that the points must rise near exponetially to keep up with the ingame potential levels. The ability to concentrate power at a linear points increase into smaller and smaller spaces is a major advantage if the enemy can't match that concentration.
Not saying that's the case here, but it is a danger when going for extremes in low model count armies.

And somehow I just don't think that eldar should be the kind of army where you want to shoot their infantry with AT-cannons.

Irisado
13-04-2009, 12:29
Hellebore: Do you have a link to your reworking of the 40K rules with D10s? I would be very interested to read that. If there is a link to the development of your Eldar Codex, could you please let me have that too? (PM me if you would prefer not to post them in this thread).

On the topic of Swooping Hawks, the problem is that I don't think their identity crisis can be resolved unless GW change the rules for grenades, so that they can be thrown (as they could be in Rogue Trader and Second Edition).

Swooping Hawks were always a shock unit, used to unleash devastating showers of grenades on their opponents, and they have been struggling for an identity ever since this role was lost to them.

I don't see much of a role for Swooping Hawks in current Eldar armies, since no matter what role you give them, another Eldar unit can perform it better.

Perhaps a solution would be to give their Lasblasters additional range, so that they can stay out of the range of rapid fire weapons when shooting, but I'm unconvinced that this will really help their prospects in the long run.

Unless GW bring back the ability to throw grenades, I think that it's going to very difficult to find a role for Swooping Hawks in subsequent updates to the Eldar Codex.

guillimansknight
13-04-2009, 12:46
i would just remove them i dont like them in an eldar list

Emeraldw
13-04-2009, 13:15
i would just remove them i dont like them in an eldar list

I like them! They are cool models. It is a shame that they serve no real purpose other than being cool.

Kelderaith
13-04-2009, 16:06
On the topic of Swooping Hawks, the problem is that I don't think their identity crisis can be resolved unless GW change the rules for grenades, so that they can be thrown (as they could be in Rogue Trader and Second Edition).

Swooping Hawks were always a shock unit, used to unleash devastating showers of grenades on their opponents, and they have been struggling for an identity ever since this role was lost to them.

I don't see much of a role for Swooping Hawks in current Eldar armies, since no matter what role you give them, another Eldar unit can perform it better.

Perhaps a solution would be to give their Lasblasters additional range, so that they can stay out of the range of rapid fire weapons when shooting, but I'm unconvinced that this will really help their prospects in the long run.

Unless GW bring back the ability to throw grenades, I think that it's going to very difficult to find a role for Swooping Hawks in subsequent updates to the Eldar Codex.

Well I think we can "easily" fix this problem while keeping (at least for now) the integrity of the eldar codex. Only 2 things really bug me in the codex right now, hawks and guardians. Guardian could receive lasblaster as weaponry instead of shuriken catapult and I think it would be fair game (after all, 8 pts guardian truely is a bad pricing for the weapon/statline they have now), and it would just fit better to have them carry medium/long range weaponry than stupidly short range weaponry for a militia unit. As for hawks, as Irisado mentioned, they were a shock grenade blasting type of unit in 2nd ed (wasn't playing back then but it sounds cool) and it could be fixed relatively easily by giving them a grenade launcher type of weapon instead of their lasblaster (now Guardian weapon). I could not really design the rule myself, but I would think something a bit better than the imperial equivalent to keep the eldar superior technology theme (str4 ap 6 instead of str3 ap 6, or something similar).

While I read the alternative codex and found it more akin to eldar lore/fluff etc. I think it screws game balance a lot (maybe playtested it is not that bad but at first sight some things are abusable).

On that note, keep the discussion up, it is definitely worth it to try to fix the game (even if it is just house rules stuff) instead of waiting 4-5 years for a reedition and being bored by some internal balance problems.

Enoyk
15-04-2009, 10:11
I bought four of them because they just beautiful :)

Poseidal
15-04-2009, 10:38
I would like the long 'jumps' they had with the bombing runs as their main source of damage rather than the rubberhawk deepstrike method.

The Lasblaster would be more of a secondary weapon to the grenade pack.

As it stands, I can't think of a role for them. They also fail to be harassers or generalists, and can't claim objectives.