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Heero-Severus
17-12-2005, 07:50
This is a general observation on the game mechanics, that to be quite honest befuddles me regularily, this is not a rules question, but more to see how people feel.

Twin linked, allows you to re-roll a missed shot with that weapon. Now I understand that the re-roll is applied to the second shot finding the target (how, ill come to that later). But when the first shot you roll a hit, what does the second shot do? in current rules it vapourises.
Linked, this means both weapons are strapped together , point in the same direction, and the only variancy is the distance between barrels, now as they both point in the same place, why does the mechanics of the game suggest that the second shot hits, even if the first missed? This rule really confuses me as every twin linked weapon, is only fitted with one targetter or sight!

How i would enterpret twin linked in 40k. One roll to hit, if succesful they both hit or both miss, no re-rolls. 2 Rolls for wounding/penetration. Other rules could be applied to that, For example you could choose to fire one Lascannon per turn, or two in a turn and recharge the next in the case of energy weapons like lascannons.

This isnt my attempt at re-writting the rules, just my 2 cents on somthing that wasnt IMO really thought about in the game.

Jamz
17-12-2005, 08:13
in 2nd edition with twin linked weapons you used to roll 1 to hit and 2 wounds.. made more sence to me...

ExoCowboy
17-12-2005, 08:39
Some weapons DO work the way 40k's twinlinked -rule works. I have been in the Finnish army as a AA-gunner, with this kind of a cannon:

http://tietokannat.mil.fi/kalustoesittely/media/1084858933_23_ItK_61.jpg

the barrels are not fixed very well in place, so that the big recoil makes them move within a couple of millimetres of "free space" where the support in the middle of the barrels is. This couple of millimetres of shaking, combined with a fire-rate of 2 x 17 shots in second, means that when the target is far away the grenades scatter into an ever-growing "cloud" of shots. And when the gun is recoiling, the two shots shot in the same time do not hit the same spot, but they might differ a lot in direction fired in the long distance. It is not accurate, but the explosive grenades shot in that rate mean that an immobile enemy is very hard to miss, while the moving targets are also in great danger to hit. I have always thought that cannon to be kinda like a twin-linked autocannon :cool:

Eisenhorn
17-12-2005, 10:09
the barrels are not fixed very well in place, so that the big recoil makes them move within a couple of millimetres of "free space" where the support in the middle of the barrels is. This couple of millimetres of shaking, combined with a fire-rate of 2 x 17 shots in second, means that when the target is far away the grenades scatter into an ever-growing "cloud" of shots. And when the gun is recoiling, the two shots shot in the same time do not hit the same spot, but they might differ a lot in direction fired in the long distance. It is not accurate, but the explosive grenades shot in that rate mean that an immobile enemy is very hard to miss, while the moving targets are also in great danger to hit. I have always thought that cannon to be kinda like a twin-linked autocannon :cool:

this is true for large guns with high rates of fire but what about twinlinked melta and lascannons. i always figuerd those to be around 1 shot pr minut weapons.

and what about the tau suits they have twin linked weapons on each arm/shoulder with lots of space inbetween:rolleyes:

Heero-Severus
17-12-2005, 11:28
AA is all about how much lead you can get in the air, its why things like Gatling guns, and more recently "Metal Storm" are developed. But most of the weapons that are twin linked arnt designed for spread fire, infact id say all marine weapons are set up for pin ppint strikes. If the rule was meant to portray what you have experianced with the AA gun, then why are assault cannons heavy 4?? surely it would be more in keeping to have it heavy 2 with a re-roll for each to show the recoil effect?

Gregorus
17-12-2005, 11:36
Thou shalt not apply real-life logic to Warhammer...

The re-roll might symbolise just a slight miss, when the first gun misses the target by mere centimeters, then the other has a big chance to hit. Apart from that, it's game mechanics.

My 0.02 Imperialis

Sanjuro
17-12-2005, 11:45
This thing is pure mechanics.

You might as well ask: 'A pistol shot at 12" with BS5 has a 5/6 chance of hitting the target. A pistol shot at 12.01" with BS5 has 0% chance of hitting the target. What happens to the shot at 12"? Does it vaporize?'

Some things are just in the rules.

Puffin Magician
17-12-2005, 11:49
Currently Twin Linked seems to generally mean pouring twice the amount of shots into the same area, increasing your chances of hitting, little more. That's why everything from Combi-Bolters to Broadsides use the same generic rule.

The "if you hit with the first you'll probably hit with the second too" rules were obviously too complicated for 3rd Edition and was, like so much else, sadly simplefied.

Heero-Severus
17-12-2005, 12:35
Currently Twin Linked seems to generally mean pouring twice the amount of shots into the same area, increasing your chances of hitting, little more.

but if the first shot hits, then surely the second will follow and hit the same.
I can understand this mentality for things like auto cannons, assault cannons etc, but weapons like Lascannons, and then anything from the tau just doesnt fit. It isnt about applying real world physics, it just makes sense.

A landraider, stationary, sits parallel to a rhino. only 4 inches seperate them. The landraider fires its twin linked lascannon into the side of the rhino, the first shot hits, the second shot........... well nothing comes of the second shot because,,, well the first shot hit.... OK!?! it could be put down to poor maintainance or a quirk in the machine spirit on imperial weapons :) but on the tau. I cant see a Broadside unit firing its rail-guns in a pattern that is purely for suppresion fire, which i also fail to see is the intended purpose of twin lascannons.

Puffin Magician
17-12-2005, 14:36
Perhaps Twinlinked weapons operate differently than simply "blast that thing! two barrels means two shots!".

Vehicles and Battlesuits have power requirements to consider, and infantry can only carry so much ammunition around. First shot fires, if it hits... no need to waste extra rounds/plasma/whatever to hit it again. If you miss, there's always the ability to give it another try.

Yodhrin
17-12-2005, 15:08
Perhaps Twinlinked weapons operate differently than simply "blast that thing! two barrels means two shots!".

Vehicles and Battlesuits have power requirements to consider, and infantry can only carry so much ammunition around. First shot fires, if it hits... no need to waste extra rounds/plasma/whatever to hit it again. If you miss, there's always the ability to give it another try.

There you have it, high RoF weapons like HBs and ACs saturate an area in order to increase chances of hitting, beam weapons(which likely travel at the speed of light) are manually aimed and fired, but the targeting computer(machine spirit) fires a single shot and only fires a second time if it detects the first missing. The additional linked weapon is to eliminate the need to recharge the weapon between the first and (potential)second shot.

Heero-Severus
17-12-2005, 15:25
Tis a good answer id give you that, but then for example the first shot hits, but doesnt do any damage would the same overide on the system cut in or would it think, damn i hit it but nothing happened lets try again.
Now before someone says thats what the next turn is for, we are talking in the same time constraints that Puffin has described for the hit miss scenario, if anything it could be an even smaller amount of time as no targeting adjust would be needed.

This is an interesting set of thoughts being built up. Any more ideas?

TzarNikolai
17-12-2005, 16:43
i'd say it probably started with the design team looking at things like the AA mount and bringing a rule to mimic it to their multishot weapons. then they thought "lets keep everything simple and only have one such rule for 2 weapons on the same mount..." so twin linked meltaguns and lascannons were born, either that or they were too lazy to come up with a different rule...

its just so there's only one rule to remember, like the new USR or fantasy's "stubborn" and "hatred" type rules; where the main rule is in the rulebook and everything follows it.

i for one am pretty relieved that that predator annihilators can only have 3 lascannon shots, or that tau broadsides only have one railgun shot. can you imagine 2 railgun shots coming from each broadside?

Yodhrin
17-12-2005, 18:38
Tis a good answer id give you that, but then for example the first shot hits, but doesnt do any damage would the same overide on the system cut in or would it think, damn i hit it but nothing happened lets try again.
Now before someone says thats what the next turn is for, we are talking in the same time constraints that Puffin has described for the hit miss scenario, if anything it could be an even smaller amount of time as no targeting adjust would be needed.

This is an interesting set of thoughts being built up. Any more ideas?

If I understand you correctly, it would be perfectly possible to explain away the lack of a second shot in the case of no damage being caused by looking at how limited the Machine Spirit is.

Certainly it's far further than the AI tech we have today, however I would think it would be carefully limited to driving in emergancies and the odd bit of calculation. The Imperium have a massive fear of AI thanks to the Dark Age of Technology so, if you think about it, they wouldnt really want a tank that can drive itself, aim for itself, fire for itself and also have enough cognitive ability to discern not only if it has struck a target, but reason whether or not to fire again based on how much damage it caused.

20th Century Boy
17-12-2005, 21:12
As pointed out above, twin-linked in the case of higher rate of fire weapons would just be throwing as much lead/energy/something in the enemy's direction, thus increasing the chance to hit.

I wouldn't rule out the same for more pinpoint weapons. Imagine a Lascannon throwing out a hail of bolts towards the target, with an increased chance to hit. Why a hail, where there are only two barrels? Well, they fire alternately, which gives them a possible higher rate of fire than one single weapon, regardless of overheating/recharging - see the Gatling for the concept.

To keep things easy all those possible hits are interpreted into one "more secure" hit. A turn in 40k is a highly abstract concept anyway - I personally see one round of shooting not as once pulling the trigger, squeezing off 1 (Assault)2 or (Heavy)3 shots, but variable maneuvering and repeated sniping between units. To keep things quick these are then broken down into the stats we know.

So a single Lascannon might fire 3 shots a turn equaling 1 possibility to hit, twinlinked Lascannons 10 shots, equaling 1 higher possibility. A single Heavy Bolter equals perhaps 20 shots a turn, with twinlinked pouring out 50, with 3 respectively 3 higher possibility hits.

Gameswise I think they used twinlinked to keep in check the killing power of a single unit. A hail of fire that might deliver 8 hits (Assault cannon) is unmeasurably worth more than 4 hits max. Three Hydras scourging the Battlefield with 24 probable hits might be more than game mechanics could take. And so on...

Lord Humongous
18-12-2005, 00:01
Besides which, against most armored targets (which means near everything in 40k) if one round won't penetrate, neither will two. If you hit more than once, with identical weapons, in near identical spots, the effect is the same as just hitting once. So the increased chance to hit really IS the reason to fire multiple times.
But really, it obviously about game balance. In 40k2, large models had many more wounds than they do now, and vehicles could take all sorts of sub-catgories of damage. You HAD to hit things like that several times to take them out. In 40k3, they just reduced the workload; you hit fewer times, but each hit has a greater potential effect. The models had multiple guns in a single mount, they wanted to reflect that in the rules without being over-powered, so hence; twin-linked.

Getz
18-12-2005, 00:27
Or possibly two Lascannon shots striking home at the same time on the same spot isn't appreciably more effective than one... It sounds counter-intuitive, but the same thing applies for Guns in the real world. Two bullets striking armourr (or flesh) at the same time in the same place don't do nearly as much damage as two shots following slightly behind one another (as if fired by a Machine gun)