View Full Version : Campaign Rules - integrating apocalypse and 40k PLUS alliances?

13-04-2009, 14:18
Six of us are about to start a big 40k campaign, with a space map, using battlefleet gothic for space battles and 40k for planetary battles. BUT we have two wrinkles we are working on, and I wonder if the combined wisdom of Warseer can help us?

1. We want to use super-heavies and flyers. Do we just need to play nothing but apocalypse? How should we integrate these into a regular 40K game? Have them take up a heavy slot? What about other apocalypse formations, if IG/SM can use their heavies and flyers, shouldn't chaos be able to bring the 15 obliterator datasheet and the nids drop their apocalypse formations too?

Our problem is, how do you have fun balanced games when one player brings a traditional 2000 point 40K army that follows the force org chart and another player brings two baneblades, two small troop selections and a small HQ? Has anyone experimented with mixing 40K and apocalypse into one balanced game?

2. We definitely want to have alliances... it makes sense that the different space marine factions would team up and fight chaos, orks, nids, and necrons together across the universe. Currently, our plan is not to make any rules for this and just let it be a free for all of alliances, but I was wondering if anyone had any kind of rules system or campaign rule to cover this? The free for all system is going to lead to some unfluffy alliances as orks, nids, and necrons team up to fight the space marine coalition...

Thanks in advance to anyone who can provide some good ideas!

General Squeek Squeek
13-04-2009, 14:25
1. You could experiment with a 2k game with superheavies, but most likely the game will be very one-sided. It just works out that those particular units don't balance out well until you've gotten over the 3k threshold. Even then some people have found that unless both sides have a superheavy the game doesn't balance as well.

I'd reccomend that you split the game up a bit further. Gothic for the space battles, then you could do regular 40k games for a kinda pre battle. Let the outcomes determine some kind of benifit (If nids say hold an objective that's the IG main repair base then in apoc all IG superheavies have one less structure point. This will give the smaller skirmishes meaning), and then you could use apoc to represent a massive face off.

2. Unfortunately I've never done a campaign like the one your doing so I not much help here.

13-04-2009, 14:29
1. Super-Heavies and flyers don't work too well in normal 40k games. We tried before at my Gameing club. When some one brings a ship that can only be shot down by like 5 things on the board it makes it really hard to play. Also Baneblades rip in smaller games. We did a balenced 2000 point force vs 2 banblades and some other things, you need almost an equal amount of anti tank to deal with it. so they are better left off for apoc games.

2. There was a page with the "Allies matrix" thing on GW website. It pretty much sums up all the 40k alliances that would commonly happen. Its on page 198 of the apocalypse rule book.

13-04-2009, 14:33
Before Apocalypse came out, forgeworld had rules and points costs that in some cases were very different then the apocalypse counter parts.

Also, remember that super heavy vehicles and what not are hard-core and often are difficult to take down especially since the points will lessened by 1k. Normal flyers will not be too much of an impact on the game, but again before apocalypse forgeworld rules for normal 40k, flyers never hung around they did special attack runs each turn...or something like that I never used a flyer in a normal game.

In short I would keep at least anything with structure points in the background until you are playing at an apocalypse level game.

Chaos and Evil
13-04-2009, 14:34
Apocalypse isn't balanced, and isn't meant to be.

So using the Apocalypse Super-Heavies in a normal game? Unless you're playing Epic it's never going to be balanced.

13-04-2009, 14:49
Flyers are fine in standard 40k. They're a bit of a shock first time you meet them, but so long as everybody knows they're about, or could be, it's not a problem.

Super heavies are a problem though. They will normally dominate a standard sized game, so it degenerates into kill that one unit to win. That's not fun if it's a seer council, nob biker mob, or a baneblade.

The problem isn't so much that they're particularly hard to kill, but that Strength D, and 7 or 10" templates will wipe out large sections of the enemy far too easily. Same goes for some formations- like the multiple vindicator one. There is no fun if, first turn, somebody just moves forward, fires, and removing the central bit of cover that was covering your advance, and and then sheds half your army which is now stuck in the open.

If you want to use Super heavies, then try house ruling their weapons back to more manageable sizes, so dial strength, AP and template sizes down. For instance, a Baneblades main gun used to be a direct fire only Earth-shaker( basalisk) cannon, which was sensible.

They still get all the bonuses for being hard to stop firing, split targetting etc, so will be a central part of the game, but won't dominate it.

Same goes for formations. Don't use the ones that amount to an I-win button. Oh look, my entire nid army has deep struck straight into assault with these guardsmen, that was a huge challange...

Col. Dash
13-04-2009, 16:10
Is this a continuing campaign or a each battle is new kind of thing? I just wrote about 7 pages of a living continuing map-based campaign. In my version each player starts with 20,000 points to build multiple army groups. No army group may be more than 5k. Heres a cut and paste of how it has the use of superheavies and Apoc formations.

-No super heavies or flyers at less than 2k. From 2k-3k up to one 2 structure point vehicle can be used. At 3k-4k up to 2 2sp vehicles or a single 3sp vehicle can be used, formations can be used as well. At 4k any number of superheavies can be used.

There is no space map as this takes place on a planet that just got cut off by warp storms. New Units cost double to produce, new superheavies cost triple. Repairing them costs 100 resource points per structure point. Cities and towns produce resource points, but you have to be very efficient with your points.
By these rules, superheavies once dead, odds are will stay dead, plus players cannot have more 4+ structure point superheavies than they actually possess and no more superheavies on the field overall than they actually own which means no proxies.
While it is very likely that there will be uneven battles, especially at first, I think it will end up being a de-escalation league. There are garrison forces. Attacking a city consists of up to three battles. You have an Ambush battle where any forces with scout, infiltrate and outflank get the jump on an attacking force in the open from cover, a field battle if a defending army group is present and the city battle itself consisting of the garrison and whatever remnants of the field army are left. If this battle ends in a draw, that attacking player has the option of doing it again next turn.

13-04-2009, 18:53
So the general opinion here is that letting people use flyers and super heavies will totally unbalance the games?

That was the initial reaction of a couple of our players, but then I got to thinking- is using a baneblade more unbalancing than a 4 or 5 land raider chaos army? More unbalancing than 9 oblits 2 lash?

What I am getting at is, if we trust the players not to break things, it shouldn't be a problem, whether it is the codexes (which have their own cheese) or super heavys

13-04-2009, 19:04
Alliances are easy, just agree on them and your good.

As to the fliers and super-heavies, you can go one of two ways. First, just do Apocalypse since they tend to work well in that environment. Second, just do a Super-Heavy & Flier type rumble similar to the gladiator bit they did at Adepticon. IIRC, it was something like 1500 points with fliers and super-heavies allowed.

13-04-2009, 19:30
Minimum size for an Apocalypse game is 3000 points, it shouldn't be that hard to play games as Apocalypse games, you might just need to tweak the rules (i.e use normal 40K objectives, Apoc deployment and stratagies).

As for flyers the main problem with them is hitting them, unless you have Anti-Aircraft models (which hardly anyone has) then you're buggered. The only way I could see it working is if you use flyer the enemy gets D3 AA positions. This represents the fact they dected enemy aricraft, but how soon they dected them etc varies so they set up random amount of defences, you could also force them to use the FW rules, which are a little harsher but mess up the turn sequence.

As for Alliances I'd use the allies chart but invert it to, for example instead of going from "Yeah these guys dont need a reason to be allied" to "these can never be allies" it goes from "These need no reason to attack these" to "You need a bloody Good reason to attack these". Combine those two charts and you have a simple system that forces players to stick to reasonable sides but can ally with each other if needed.

13-04-2009, 20:20
I would think for a campaign, give x number of slots available. If there is going to be several battles, ok for a superheavy. Sure you might do well that game but it will be available for another system fighting at the same time. Or worse, repairs minor, but Structpoints do not repair and if lost, as would tanks etc... not available for later campaigns.

With Gothic campaigns, we roll for reinforcements, same could be in this type. Troops easier to replace than elite or heavy slots. Have major armies toward major targets.