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View Full Version : IG Sergeants Without Lasguns is Lame!



antin3
13-04-2009, 15:28
So I don't continually hijack another thread here I just wanted to state that IF what I am hearing about sergeants not being able to take lasguns is true that is completely ridiculous. Come on, what do they need a close combat weapon for? So they can swing twice before they die? Give me a break I have 10 squads that I have painted up and actually converted to give the sergeants a different look. I don't think I am going to convert my existing ones.
Jeez I don't usually complain but I had to get it out.

Acolyte
13-04-2009, 15:36
The squad sergeants have never had the option for a Lasgun. Really, nobody but Sisters and Tau have the option to give their squad leaders the same gun as the rest of the squad.

Get over it. It's one Lasgun shot.

Spider-pope
13-04-2009, 15:44
The squad sergeants have never had the option for a Lasgun. Really, nobody but Sisters and Tau have the option to give their squad leaders the same gun as the rest of the squad.

Get over it. It's one Lasgun shot.

*Cough* Space Marines *Cough*

Seems a bit odd, not letting IG sergeants take Las-guns, but dont get too angry about it. In the end its a handful of lasgun shots you are losing. And if your opponents are anal enough to pull you up over your sergeants having lasguns, then i doubt they are going to be that great to play against anyway.

RCgothic
13-04-2009, 15:45
Acolyte: Wrong. Just about everyone has the option.

incarna
13-04-2009, 15:50
The squad sergeants have never had the option for a Lasgun. Really, nobody but Sisters and Tau have the option to give their squad leaders the same gun as the rest of the squad.

Get over it. It's one Lasgun shot.

um...

Space marines can
Chaos Space marines can
All Eldar exarchs can
Dark Eldar

...in fact, I'm having difficulty thinking of an army whose squad leaders DON'T have the ability to take the same weapons as their squad.

Tyranids and Necrons don't have squad leadrs

MrBims
13-04-2009, 15:52
The squad sergeants have never had the option for a Lasgun. Really, nobody but Sisters and Tau have the option to give their squad leaders the same gun as the rest of the squad.

Get over it. It's one Lasgun shot.

IG codex, page 44.

Bunnahabhain
13-04-2009, 15:55
And current codex Guard sergeants have the option for a lasgun, which is why lots of us have squads of 8 lasguns, special, heavy...

Edit: they however lack the option for Ninja's. That has been fixed in the new codex, although you can only take the one, Mambo...

AlexCage
13-04-2009, 16:00
This fact of the Codex enrages me so much I've gone into denial about it.

I'm going to continue to play with Sergeants that have Lasguns. They aren't forced to take a Pistol. I refuse to believe it.

Since I only play casual games I don't see this being a problem. So far I've explained the situation to all my regular opponents and they agree, this is either stupidity given Rule form, or just an oversight. And I'll just explain it before the start of the game to any random opponents.

Seriously, anyone that says "Your Guardsman can't take a lasgun!" in a casual game is not someone I want to play with anyways. It's a LASGUN.


The squad sergeants have never had the option for a Lasgun. Really, nobody but Sisters and Tau have the option to give their squad leaders the same gun as the rest of the squad.

Get over it. It's one Lasgun shot.

Well Trolled, good sir, well Trolled.

Fire Harte
13-04-2009, 16:00
Now it isn't losing a shot or two that annoys me and I'm sure it isn't that for the OP either.

This means I have to remodel/rethink a few models and it limits what I can convert to. That's what bugs me on this.

Deftoneus
13-04-2009, 16:01
lol...thanks for opening this thread antin3...I was having the same line of thinking as you. I really wanted to post on that one thread but didn't want to hijack it either.

Now that I'm here...

I have several armies (IG included) and if i came up against someone that still had lasguns modelled I wouldnt care and would let them use it as such.

All my Sgt's in my IG army have lasguns modelled...there is no way i'm going back to them and clipping arms just to give them a CCW/laspistol. I'm going to still use them as Lasguns, and if my opponent has a problem with it....well as Spider-Pope said...they probably arn't that good of an opponent anyway.

Eldorad
13-04-2009, 16:04
Now it isn't losing a shot or two that annoys me and I'm sure it isn't that for the OP either.

This means I have to remodel/rethink a few models and it limits what I can convert to. That's what bugs me on this.

Agreed.

I just finished painting 3 squads including sergeants with lasguns.

Great!

Pointless remodelling ahoy!

Kreig don't even come with anything else!

Bunnahabhain
13-04-2009, 16:07
If enough people complain, it might be eratta'd.
I have enough models that have been veterans, and are equipped sensibly to be my sergeants if if want them to be, but I want my sergeants to have lasguns!

Eldorad
13-04-2009, 16:08
It was even in the rumour summary that they could take lasguns - it's so obvious does anyone else think this was just an oversight?

I might pretend they have a shotgun...

boogle
13-04-2009, 16:12
Currently, Sgts can have Lasgun, or Laspistol and CCW or Shotgun as the choice of their free armaments, so i cannot see this changing at all

Vepr
13-04-2009, 16:13
um...

Space marines can
Chaos Space marines can
All Eldar exarchs can
Dark Eldar

...in fact, I'm having difficulty thinking of an army whose squad leaders DON'T have the ability to take the same weapons as their squad.

Tyranids and Necrons don't have squad leadrs

I was about to complain about my nid squad leaders inability to take a lasgun when I realized we did not have squad leaders! Damn our out of date codex!!! ;)

I guess you could argue that warriors are squad leaders even though they are not technically part of the squards but they cannot take lasguns either. :(

AlexCage
13-04-2009, 16:18
Currently, Sgts can have Lasgun, or Laspistol and CCW or Shotgun as the choice of their free armaments, so i cannot see this changing at all

If it weren't such a stupid rule, I'd say it's NOT an oversight, as they lost both the Shotgun AND the Lasgun option, where the vets kept the Shotgun option.

But whether we accept it or not, they can't get a Lasgun officially. Thems the rules.

Oh, I'd also like to point out, if anyone cares, Vets lost the Pistol+CCW combo too. Suck.

Acolyte
13-04-2009, 16:20
Currently, Sgts can have Lasgun, or Laspistol and CCW or Shotgun as the choice of their free armaments, so i cannot see this changing at all

It did. From the 5th codex:
A Sergeant may exchange his Laspistol for a Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon or Plasma Pistol.
He may exchange his Close Combat Weapon for a Power Weapon.

No lasgun.

Bloodknight
13-04-2009, 16:21
It is changing.

Basically it says: Equipment: Lasgun (Sergeant has laspistol instead).

Note: has, not "can have". There's no option for lasguns on sergeants in the codex, all they get are pistol weapons (they can change the laspistol for a boltpistol or plasma pistol, but neither lasgun, bolter or storm bolter. I actually could not find a storm bolter option for anything but vehicles).


edit: acolyte ninja'd me.

Cane
13-04-2009, 16:25
This has to be an oversight on GW's part.

There's no way in hell denying one member of a Guardsman squad of their lasgun adds to balanced gameplay.

SPYDER68
13-04-2009, 16:25
For all the next stuff we are getting.. im perfectly ok being stuck with making las pistol /ccw srg's

incarna
13-04-2009, 16:27
I was about to complain about my nid squad leaders inability to take a lasgun when I realized we did not have squad leaders! Damn our out of date codex!!! ;)

I guess you could argue that warriors are squad leaders even though they are not technically part of the squards but they cannot take lasguns either. :(

Indeed... but they CAN take the same weapons as the squads they command.

Johnnyfrej
13-04-2009, 16:29
So is the rage in this thread stemming from the fact that your armies will have a few less Lasguns or that your are forced to take a few less Lasguns?

Personally I love the new rules myself, since all my Platoon Sarges have either the Grenade arm/Chainsword or Laspistol/Chainsword combo.

Eldorad
13-04-2009, 16:35
So is the rage in this thread stemming from the fact that your armies will have a few less Lasguns or that your are forced to take a few less Lasguns?

Personally I love the new rules myself, since all my Platoon Sarges have either the Grenade arm/Chainsword or Laspistol/Chainsword combo.

No - it's from the fact we have to break up our sergeants to give them pistols. Or paint new ones. I guess.

Either way - unnecessary pain!!! *tears*

Bloodknight
13-04-2009, 16:38
Personally, I don't see the problem either, but then I play Mordians, all my sergeant models have chainswords and laspistols by default, and they actually made the Mordian variant sergeant model with laspistol and power weapon WYSIWYG again. :-)

Acolyte
13-04-2009, 16:41
This has to be an oversight on GW's part.

There's no way in hell denying one member of a Guardsman squad of their lasgun adds to balanced gameplay.

No way it subtracts, either. It's. One. Lasgun.

SPYDER68
13-04-2009, 16:43
every lasgun is sacred!!

just think.. how many times when you shoot that marine squad.. that.. the 1.. extra lasgun would have turned the tide of the battle.. It totally would have been the one to wound..





/sarcasm incase anyone didnt notice :P

AlexCage
13-04-2009, 16:45
No way it subtracts, either. It's. One. Lasgun.

Exactly. So why REMOVE the option? What purpose does it serve to take it away if it doesn't matter, one way or another? Especially on a unit entry that EVERY legal Guard army has.

Also worth it to note that FRFSRF doesn't effect pistols. With a robust order system (i.e. Creed), you can just about count on your squads having FRFSRF available every round of shooting. That's two shots per shooting phase per sgt. Might not seem like much, but after an average length game, if that sgt would have got to fire every turn, you just basically lost one round of shooting from a full squad.

That could matter.

SPYDER68
13-04-2009, 16:47
Exactly. So why REMOVE the option? What purpose does it serve to take it away if it doesn't matter, one way or another? Especially on a unit entry that EVERY legal Guard army has.

Why not remove this option ?

maybe it represents the srg's leadership wanting to beat some people in close combat not being scared.

Why give us new tanks ? why give us valk's ? Why give us a new codex when others have older ones ?

Vepr
13-04-2009, 16:48
Just pretend those squad leaders have las pistols with stocks. ;)

AlexCage
13-04-2009, 16:56
Why not remove this option ?

maybe it represents the srg's leadership wanting to beat some people in close combat not being scared.

Why give us new tanks ? why give us valk's ? Why give us a new codex when others have older ones ?

Uhm. Balance? Isn't that what we're talking about here?

Raxmei
13-04-2009, 16:56
Why not remove this option ?Because it invalidates previously existing models that people have been using without incident.

RCgothic
13-04-2009, 16:58
Because it invalidates previously existing models that people have been using without incident.

Quoted for Truth. No good reason to remove the option.

yabbadabba
13-04-2009, 16:58
No - it's from the fact we have to break up our sergeants to give them pistols. Or paint new ones. I guess.

Either way - unnecessary pain!!! *tears*

No. You. Don't. If your sgt has a lasgun, and the new codex says you can only have a laspistol, chainsword or enraged Budgie, then NOBODY but the most retentive nut is going to have an issue with it as long as you play buy the rules. However if you are a tournament devotee, then thems the breaks.

C'mon guys, this is another post over nothing. As long as people know who your squad sergeants are, nobody will care. Seriously. It's not about game balance cos a long or short range candle isn't going to frighten anyone in the game. It's about image. GW want their sergeants to look a certain way and thats all.

invinciblebug
13-04-2009, 17:01
It sucks that we are loosing 2 lasguns for our infantry squads. Instead of 8 as standard we now have 6 :(.

Eldorad
13-04-2009, 17:02
Thanks Yabbadabba, you have calmed me.

I just think that *future* squads I paint will have correctly armed sergeants.

MrMojoZ
13-04-2009, 17:02
No way it subtracts, either. It's. One. Lasgun.

Thats what, 3 shots with orders?

SPYDER68
13-04-2009, 17:03
If rules say they have Las pistol and ccw.. then you keep giving them lasgun..

Sure play for fun etc.

but dont be surprised if people at a tourney tell you no. They are not wysiwig.

its not hard to add a few with the option.. im sure everyone has the arms if they keep their bits..

Thats the thing about a new book.. new options etc.. everyone always runs into having to swap options on certain models with new books.

don_mondo
13-04-2009, 17:11
No way it subtracts, either. It's. One. Lasgun.

Two actually, since the "Heavy Weapon Team" is now a single two-wound model instead of a gunner firing the Hevy and a loader firing his lasgun.

Robineng
13-04-2009, 17:14
Should have given them the option to take CCW+Pistol or Lasgun, just like some armies have the choice between CCW+Pistol or basic gun/rifle at no additional cost. Its just not proper Imperial Guard without lasguns. Personally I would never care if my opponent would want to field his sarges with lasguns instead of ccw+pistol, in the end I doubt it would even be close changing things in the battle.

Somerandomidiot
13-04-2009, 17:20
No. You. Don't. If your sgt has a lasgun, and the new codex says you can only have a laspistol, chainsword or enraged Budgie, then NOBODY but the most retentive nut is going to have an issue with it as long as you play buy the rules.

Ok, I now have a strange desire to model one of my sergeants with an enraged Budgie... I'm thinking like the fantasy empire pigeons of doom!

SimonL
13-04-2009, 17:30
Because it invalidates previously existing models that people have been using without incident.

QFT. It's quite annoying if your models are suddenly rendered useless.

Similar scenario; I was rather pissed when the new Marine Codex came out and there were no more Trait options, meaning that 2 squads of Tactical Marines with Bolt Pistols and CCWs were now useless (yes I could play them as JP-less Assault marines but I have assault marines already. Went from 4 troops to 2.

Or...those Terminator sergeants with unique weapons...those you can't use either...

AngryAngel
13-04-2009, 17:36
I really think this is just because, as others have pointed out, GW has a certain look they want for their Sgts. The inspiring pistol plus sword look is nice, and makes it easy to pick out a Sgt for the squad.

I'll play the rules as they are made for that, plenty of shooty options for the guard still one lasgun won't make that big a diffrence to me. I'd say just try it out, if ya want leave your models the same as they were just play as if they have the pistol + CCW on them.

As well if your opponents don't mind you keeping their lasguns do that too if you'd wish. It's really not a huge issue, relax it will all be good.

CKO
13-04-2009, 17:47
Tactical wise one less strength 3 shot is not going to be a game winner. I understand the modeling aspect but its not that big of a deal when we get so many new options.

insan0
13-04-2009, 17:48
Sarg is to busy keeping the squad in line and relaying the orders to stand and take pot shots at the enemy

Personally i don't think anyone is going to fault someone for wysiwyg, so long as you didn't give them upgrades beyond laspistol and cc wep.

However playing them as if they were lasguns because in a previous edition of your codex it was allowed opens up a sticky situation. Would you allow your opponent to equip wargear based on a past codex?

freddieyu
13-04-2009, 17:49
My squad sergeants just got promoted to veteran status. I used the troopers from Col Schaeffer's last chancers set (the ones with lasguns), so now they are reunited again in 1 squad...

luckily i still have a lot of unassembled plastics left over....oh well perfect excuse to assemble new guardsmen...

Charax
13-04-2009, 17:49
Keep your models as they are, use them as Laspistol & CCW. Everyone's happy.

Darkhorse
13-04-2009, 17:55
I'm worried they may have removed the option for Vet. sgts with bolters... That really would be a **** take.

don_mondo
13-04-2009, 17:59
QFT. It's quite annoying if your models are suddenly rendered useless.



Annoying but they're not quite 'useless'. They're now the standard lasgun members of new squads.................. All my Sgts already had pistol/ccw, but I use old RT era IG models, so I now have an extra lasgun in each squad that used to be the HW loader. When I reorganize, I'll be able to make an additional 2 or 3 squads out of those guys. I'm more upset about the Hardened Vets having lost their pistol/ccw combo and the fact that they're now 10-man squads. So now I've got to do up 6 men for each Hd Vet squad.

borithan
13-04-2009, 18:01
The inspiring pistol plus sword look is nice, and makes it easy to pick out a Sgt for the squad.While it makes it easy to pick them out, that combo is really an officer's combo, rather than an NCO's, and even then it is rather out-dated. Now, if they did SMG like weapons...

antin3
13-04-2009, 18:07
Look I am not worried about it being game breaking or anything I understand it is one flashlight shot, ok I get it. I am simply stating that I don't see the point period. How is this changing the mechanics of a guard army? So many IG players have their sergeants armed this way. I will eventually live with it, as I said before I don't usually complain about GW and this really isn't a complaint as much as an "I don't get it." Coupled with the fact that I have may sergeants with lasguns that need remodeled.
I will play with them as they are and I am sure that everyone I play will be alright with it, it's a personal WYSIWYG thing for me also. I haven't ever played in a tourney and if I should ever and someone makes an issue of it then that will be my first and last tourney.
If my opening post came across as hateful or angry that was not my intent. I just don't get it. Oh and Acolyte make sure you know what you are talking about before you post a snide reply, it makes you look foolish.

Hicks
13-04-2009, 18:11
I actually like to have a laspistol and chainsword for my sarges, so luckily for my I already spent a fortune getting 27 sergeants for my Steel Legion. I say luckily, because some of the other changes in the new codex really bother me a lot more than what my sergeants can or cannot take. Like how Ogryn squads went from 10 to 7 (yay, 3 useless models), some unit's point cost sky rocketing, or nobody having I4 anymore.

EDIT: I just looked at the codex and I'm glad to see the rumors were wrong, 10 strong Ogryn squads are still legal!

Bunnahabhain
13-04-2009, 18:12
Lots of my sergeants have lasguns with underslung grenade launcher in their right hand, and a sword in their left. Most have a pistol holster somewhere.

Means they can count as either pistol and CCW ( very rarely), or lasgun armed ( common), but are easily identified as the sargent. Not that it's mattered up until now, as I didn't use veteran sergents in line infantry squads much at all.

yabbadabba
13-04-2009, 18:23
Look I am not worried about it being game breaking or anything I understand it is one flashlight shot, ok I get it. I am simply stating that I don't see the point period. How is this changing the mechanics of a guard army?

It doesn't. It's all about image mate.

Look, with the advent of RAW (for feth's sake), the rise of the vocal minority of tournament players et al, people get too carried away with things like this. It really doesn't matter. I'd play a game with a guy who had assault cannons on his Sentinels if it fitted the theme of his army. We might have to discuss points vs balance after :) but I would be happy.

It doesn't matter. You probably have a great army. Just use and enjoy it. And anyone getting wound up about wysiwyg needs to have a beer and a long lie down.

Have fun buddy.

g0ddy
13-04-2009, 18:27
I can 'confirm' having seen the book that... Storm Trooper sergeants have the option of taking a proper hotshot-lasgun... I am not sure about the lowly guardsmen sergeants though.

~ zilla

SPYDER68
13-04-2009, 19:00
I can 'confirm' having seen the book that... Storm Trooper sergeants have the option of taking a proper hotshot-lasgun... I am not sure about the lowly guardsmen sergeants though.

~ zilla

Infantry squad srg's can only have las pistol .. or bolt pistol.. or plasma pistol for shooting weapons..

AlexCage
13-04-2009, 19:09
I can 'confirm' having seen the book that... Storm Trooper sergeants have the option of taking a proper hotshot-lasgun... I am not sure about the lowly guardsmen sergeants though.

~ zilla

Minor point, Storm Troopers (Troopers and Sgt both) come standard with both CCW+HotShot Laspistol and HotShot lasgun, no need to choose.

I guess my Kasrkin Sgts are technically not WYSIWYG now either.

SPYDER68
13-04-2009, 19:12
I plan on stripping paint off my storm srg's and adding a hotshot lasgun on his back with a sling..

but base models.. its kinda bad they dont make a model for the stormtrooper sgt's thats wysiwig soon.

RichBlake
13-04-2009, 19:16
Tactical wise one less strength 3 shot is not going to be a game winner. I understand the modeling aspect but its not that big of a deal when we get so many new options.

Yeah but look at it this way:

Heavy Weapons teams lose a lasgun shot (1 model shooting 1 weapon instead of 2 models shooting 2)
Sergeants replace lasgun with laspistol

At 24" that's losing a maximum of 2 shots, at rapid fire that's losing 3.

3 less lasguns shots isn't much, until you add them up.

Merge a platoon of 50 guardsmen? Under the current Sergeant options and HWT options you'd have 15 Extra lasgun shots.

2 merged platoons loose between them 30 lasgun shots.

Now while even 15 lasgun shots aren't brilliant, they CAN and do make a difference in games.

To be fair you do get MORE shots when using FRFSRF however this means using an order up.

The way I see it: Does it break the game? Answer: No. Therefore give it to them as an option at the least. Giving IG officers refractor fields for free is an example of this being done right: Is a Guard Officer having a 5+ invulnerable on top of his 5+ normal save going to break the game? No. Therefore give it to them.

defunct
13-04-2009, 19:30
Man, was I enraged when I read about this. Guess I'll just convert tiny "las-carbines" for my sarges imagining it's a pistol, and have a knife on them. :D

I have ALWAYS hated seeing every goddamn seargeant equipped with a ccw and pistol, and even worse: without a helmet. I'll never submit to that.

Yes, I understand it's easier for your opponent to recognize them, but I have just found other ways of making that happen modelling wise.

Damn, GW! If it ain't broken, why fix it???

carldooley
13-04-2009, 19:31
come on, you're losing one lasgun for a model that costs 2/3rds of what it cost in the previous codex (they cost X in the current one but they are going to cost, what in the new one? V points???:wtf:)

much as I hate mathhammer let me figure this out - 10xX=X0 in the current codex. 10xV=V0 in the new one. that means that for each basic infantry platoon that you fielded with the old codex, you are going to be able to field 3 infantry squads where you used to only be able to field 2 for the same points.

cry me a river, build me a bridge, and get over it.

Shield of Freedom
13-04-2009, 19:43
I'm worried they may have removed the option for Vet. sgts with bolters... That really would be a **** take.

I have seen the new codex at my LFGS. We got a preview copy (it's the real thing but not intended for sale).

In it I'm affraid the rumors are true. The Sgt is already a veteran (no upgrade cost) but only has the option to exchange his laspistol for a bolt pistol or plasma pistol for a points cost.

I myself actually put Bolt guns on each of my sergeants too. So now I have 10 obsolete IG sergeants with great looking conversions that I can't use ANYWHERE in my army. It sucks....

I don't care about the loss of shots or even losing my S4 Ap5 bolter shots in the squads that I've been used to having for four years. It's the conversion work that's now useless and the extra work I have to do to create 10 more veteran sergeants for my two platoons that bothers me.

As an aside, Infantry Platoon sergeants can now take power weapons again for 10 points. It's no longer for the officers only, but it went back up to 10 instead of 5 points. Maybe that's something... sort of...

RichBlake
13-04-2009, 19:49
come on, you're losing one lasgun for a model that costs 2/3rds of what it cost in the previous codex (they cost X in the current one but they are going to cost, what in the new one? V points???:wtf:)

What? OK it's 1 point off being two thirds cheaper, but it costs 10 points cheaper for the squad. Using fractions and percentages is misleading when you're talking like that.

Overall I don't think it's something to worry or complain about, however it does seem unnecessary.

Charax
13-04-2009, 20:02
I myself actually put Bolt guns on each of my sergeants too. So now I have 10 obsolete IG sergeants with great looking conversions that I can't use ANYWHERE in my army. It sucks....
Well, except as Platoon Commanders, Company Commanders, Stormtrooper Sergeants, Commissar Lords if you're feeling adventurous...

Hell, if you have ten of them you could just call 'em standin Hellguns and use them as a stormtrooper squad.

Stad
13-04-2009, 20:04
I may have misread my preview codex, but it said something to the effect could replace pistol for bolt pistol, but lower down it said could exchange pistol and ccew for boltgun.

I would think that would be a no brainer there... esp for # points.

am i wrong?

SPYDER68
13-04-2009, 20:11
I may have misread my preview codex, but it said something to the effect could replace pistol for bolt pistol, but lower down it said could exchange pistol and ccew for boltgun.

I would think that would be a no brainer there... esp for # points.

am i wrong?

nope.. there is no options for him to have a boltgun.

shin'keiro
13-04-2009, 20:28
they however lack the option for Ninja's. That has been fixed in the new codex, although you can only take the one, Mambo...

Dont you mean Rambo... errr i mean Marbo :D

Eldoriath
13-04-2009, 21:37
I hoped that it wasn't true... I like having my seargs with lasguns. Oh well, guess i will merge the seargs into making a new squad and paint up some new ones with pistol and CCW =/

And even though it isn't game breaking having one lasgun more or less, 2 more shots at any range with FRFSRF can make a difference, and 1 shot more at any distance otherwise. Not much, but something.

Da Black Gobbo
13-04-2009, 21:39
I did not read the 4 pages about this, but i have to say, yes is retard games workshop is retard and they don't think a lot what they do, but DON'T NEED 4 pages of people talking about such a stupid thing, c'mon there are flowers and fresh air out there, get out of the internet and discover the world outside ;).

Griefbringer
13-04-2009, 21:58
I myself actually put Bolt guns on each of my sergeants too. So now I have 10 obsolete IG sergeants with great looking conversions that I can't use ANYWHERE in my army. It sucks....


You could just tell that they are very big bolt pistols...

Joewrightgm
13-04-2009, 22:06
That is kind of odd. You could maybe use them as veterans in command squads? I'm not that familiar with the new codex.

I'm thinking that the sergeants having close combat weapon and pistols is more of a throw back to Napoleonic Wars, where officers had swords which were normally denied rank and file. Granted, Sergeants aren't officers, but still.

Also, its probably to keep confusion down too; IE "Was that your sergeant? Nope, that was a guardsmen,"

Not saying its right, not saying its wrong, just is.

Honestly, I'm not going to scream foul if a person uses a sergeant with a lasgun. Though if I lose, I can cite the player as having patently cheated :D

SPYDER68
13-04-2009, 22:11
The main point is.. if you let somone use weapons a model cannot have just because it used to be that way...

Where does it end ? on letting people use old stuff in a completly Codex.

Joewrightgm
13-04-2009, 22:16
The main point is.. if you let somone use weapons a model cannot have just because it used to be that way...

Where does it end ? on letting people use old stuff in a completly Codex.

My feelings on it are if the Most Important Rule (5th Edition Rule book, page 2. Hopefully the Inquisition won't begrudge me a sold base for arguement.)

"The most important rule then is that the rules aren't all that important! So long as both players agree, you can treat them as sacrosanct or mere guidelines - the choice is yours."

As long as you both agree, game on says I.

AndrewGPaul
13-04-2009, 22:17
I have seen the new codex at my LFGS. We got a preview copy (it's the real thing but not intended for sale).

In it I'm affraid the rumors are true. The Sgt is already a veteran (no upgrade cost) but only has the option to exchange his laspistol for a bolt pistol or plasma pistol for a points cost.

I myself actually put Bolt guns on each of my sergeants too. So now I have 10 obsolete IG sergeants with great looking conversions that I can't use ANYWHERE in my army. It sucks....

Counts as bolt pistols. Problem solved. :)

AlexCage
13-04-2009, 22:29
The main point is.. if you let somone use weapons a model cannot have just because it used to be that way...

Where does it end ? on letting people use old stuff in a completly Codex.

Like letting a shoota nob take a power klaw?

Despite all indications to the contrary, using common sense is NOT against the rules.

Shinnentai
13-04-2009, 23:14
Not liking this at all - I can't believe none of the IG playtesters for the Codex didn't bring this up as something that might annoy existing players? I do kind of get that the sergeant model needs to look differently to others in the squad now that he isn't effectively just enough grunt, but surely lasgun wielding sergeants are prevalent in current IG collections?

Sure I can use my own in command squads or something, but since when have NCOs in squads had side-arms and swords??? Certainly goes against the feel of army I'm trying to create. I won't be using anything but lasguns on my sergeants - Codex be damned! :-D

greenbull
13-04-2009, 23:42
come on, you're losing one lasgun for a model that costs 2/3rds of what it cost in the previous codex (they cost X in the current one but they are going to cost, what in the new one? V points???:wtf:)

much as I hate mathhammer let me figure this out - 10xX=X0 in the current codex. 10xV=V0 in the new one. that means that for each basic infantry platoon that you fielded with the old codex, you are going to be able to field 3 infantry squads where you used to only be able to field 2 for the same points.

cry me a river, build me a bridge, and get over it.

Did you even bother to read what's it all about? It's not about losing the shots, it's about having to change all your sergeants from lasguns to pistols modelwise. Some people do paint their army's and some even try to do it right. It's impossible to change a nicely painted figure without messing it up completely.
I've spend around 3 hours on each cadian model (prepping, painting, shading, high lighting, basing) and even more on my DKOK... Now I can do it all over again for my sergeants for what??
And as someone already mentioned: Death Korps sgts only come with lasguns... Now I can start to buy expensive upgrade packs from FW.

dingareth
14-04-2009, 00:00
And as someone already mentioned: Death Korps sgts only come with lasguns... Now I can start to buy expensive upgrade packs from FW.

And you lose the nice looking Chevrons on the shoulder pad too. It's just annoying since all my squads look so nice, and now I've got to go through and rip them off. But hopefully, a FAQ will come out and fix this whole thing, like with Nobz.

Cadaver Junkie
14-04-2009, 00:13
I guess I'm lucky - Only two sergeants are going to need to be mangled a little. But one of these, well, that's what gets me annoyed - my favourite Skitarii sergeant with a bionic arm, ironhands boltgun, and a great pose has been rendered tourney useless (and all of my armies are made with tournaments in mind). Man, that sucks.

carldooley
14-04-2009, 00:15
can't you all get a box of infantry with warrior weapons and use them?

sorry if I sound callous, but you aren't exactly the only person with models sitting around that you cannot use - until recently I had a fair sized pile of Legion of the Damned models that I couldn't Use! Then there is the Solitaire that I paid 45USD for because I liked its rules, only to have it be one of the units\models in the eldar Codex that I COULD NOT USE!!!

zombied00d
14-04-2009, 00:28
I for one am pleased that so many IG players have so little to complain about with this new codex that we're seeing serious kvetching about the weapon options for our squad leaders. Who, I hasten to point out, can have power weapons this time around...

tuebor
14-04-2009, 00:38
can't you all get a box of infantry with warrior weapons and use them?

There is no box like that.


sorry if I sound callous, but you aren't exactly the only person with models sitting around that you cannot use - until recently I had a fair sized pile of Legion of the Damned models that I couldn't Use! Then there is the Solitaire that I paid 45USD for because I liked its rules, only to have it be one of the units\models in the eldar Codex that I COULD NOT USE!!!

Just because other armies are treated worse model-wise (honestly, IG is probably second to SM in being spoiled with models) doesn't mean this sucks any less.

All that being said, I've got lots of spare Guardsmen on the sprues for just such an occasion. I've got enough sprues with laspistol/ccw on them I won't have any problems.

blackroyal
14-04-2009, 00:56
Personally, I don't see the problem either, but then I play Mordians, all my sergeant models have chainswords and laspistols by default, and they actually made the Mordian variant sergeant model with laspistol and power weapon WYSIWYG again. :-)

This is my stance on the issue. Though I can feel the pain that those with less options are now feeling. On the bright side if you have this problem, you should have the CCW/pistol somewhere in your bits box.

Hellebore
14-04-2009, 01:00
Hold on, aren't all guard sergeants 'veterans' now like marine ones? So they get THREE attacks each as standard? What's the point of the two close combat weapons if you can't opt to have them make 2 attacks?

It just seems bizarre that sergeants have 3 attacks jumping up from 1 because of their wargear, without ever having a 2 attack option. This isn't really important, it just struck me wierd. You can have a 1 attack guardsmen, or a 3 attack sergeant...

Hellebore

Treadhead_1st
14-04-2009, 01:23
I don't think so. He just has improved Leadership, but none of the other Veteran bonuses (so only 1 attack, no BS4)...Actually, he might have had 2 attacks base (rumour summary indicates so), so yes the Sergeant gets 3 attacks as standard (4 on the charge, and a Str3 shot)!

The only reason I don't like my Sergeants having no access to Lasguns/Shotguns is:

1) I like the look of cohesive squads. All my Sergeants are converted ("Assault" Platoon Sergeants carry the carbine from the vehicle weapons sprue, the "Firebase" Platoon Sergeants have scoped Catachan lasrifles) so they stand out, but they're all still Lasguns.

2) I think it would have been nice if all models could get some sort of rapid-fire firearm as "standard" - ie Officers and Sergeants having the option for a Lasgun (as in virtually every Guard story even the Colonels carry Lasguns), just to suit the "modern" look of the Cadians/Catachans and the "shooty" feel of the Imperial Guard.

Sure, it's perhaps better in game-terms for them to be carrying LP&CCW and I have ample parts for conversions (lots of FW upgrade packs). HOWEVER, I have to totally re-build the Sergeants I've built, and find some way of distinguishing Ranged and Assault squads from each other (as Scoped Laspistols will look daft). A simple arm-swap won't work as they are heavily converted.

http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a33/Treadhead2005/Imperial%20Guard%20-%201500%20point%20Cadian%20Army/3%20Troops/

That's a few of my Sergeants. Note the Carbines on the 2nd Platoon men, and the scoped rifles on 1st Platoon. The guys with Carbines are currently easy conversions, but the other few I have aren't so simple. The Rifles will need total overhaul. I'd just finished painting them too :(

Logarithm Udgaur
14-04-2009, 01:47
Oh, I'd also like to point out, if anyone cares, Vets lost the Pistol+CCW combo too. Suck.

This blows, I do not suppose anyone has the option (i.e. not forced) to carry a pistol & CCW?
Also, are we forced to take a veteran sergeant (instead of just another guardsman affectionately known as Sarge) now?

Vote Kantor
14-04-2009, 02:40
what about poor WARRIOR WEAPONS, i know they suck normally and i dont even play them (i know somebody who has a spam infantry army FILLED with warrior weapon convertions), but hell, if you mostly play tau, or just like the idea and look of it, WHAT THE HELL DO YOU DO, i mean hell, i like the new codex, but my wallet doesn't, if i want to play DS guard (i used to) i have to buy me a FLYER that costs more than a LAND RAIDER, for every unit, i cant afford that. neither can my points.

sorry about my pessimism, i could go on for HOURS about what is good about the codex

Wolf123
14-04-2009, 03:39
You think you have it bad, just wait until the new Space Wolf Codex comes out and all us SW players actually have to MAKE sergeants for our squads. ;(

Melta Pants
14-04-2009, 07:03
Of all the whining I have seen about the release of new codices over the years, this has got to be the most surprising thread of all.

Wolf123
14-04-2009, 07:29
Of all the whining I have seen about the release of new codices over the years, this has got to be the most surprising thread of all.

The whining isn't about the gameplay effect though tbh, its more about the fact they now HAVE to rip apart all their old sergeants, which is a legitimate reason to bitch and moan IMO

Shinnentai
14-04-2009, 08:20
I really can't understand why so many people are having trouble seeing why IG players have got a problem with this - is it so difficult to imagine we don't want to have to change our existing sergeant models? Yes I understand that with every new codex there is a chance that some models become obsolete, but this change is completely uncalled for. There really was no need to remove this completely harmless option.

Again, NCOs with mandatory side-arms is just plain idiotic - just look at any army from Napoleonic to modern era. Yes I realise this is 40k, but a hell of a lot of people take at least some inspiration for their IG armies from past and present real-life forces. GW should try catering for them a little rather than the idiot kiddies so eager to put together thousands of cut-and-paste Cadian armies. My mistake though, that won't make any more money - so why care?

b4z
14-04-2009, 08:43
Look at the art for the new 10 man cadian and catachan boxes, both sergeants have laspistol and ccw.

So its clear that they want to reinforce the 'heroic looking sergeant with pistol/sword'...

http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/images/uploads/40k/ig/cadianshocktroops.jpg

http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/images/uploads/40k/ig/catachanjunglefighters.jpg

Wolf123
14-04-2009, 09:04
What's clear is that they want to pander to the children they want to peddle their games to.

For a long while now GW has not given a flying **** about veteran gamers and it just shows more and more with each passing codex.

Darkhorse
14-04-2009, 09:11
Well, except as Platoon Commanders, Company Commanders, Stormtrooper Sergeants, Commissar Lords if you're feeling adventurous...

Hell, if you have ten of them you could just call 'em standin Hellguns and use them as a stormtrooper squad.

Assuming that during the years of playing Guard you hadn't already amassed a full selection of officers...
Besides which Commissars tend to come with long coats, Sgts. don't.
Then there's the "Just swap the arms" crowd, which again isn't that simple, even assuming I hadn't cut up the lapistol/ccw arms for conversions years ago... The sgt.s and vet. sgt.s have a basic weapon with a basic weapon pose :- swivel left at the hips, look over the left shoulder and glue the weapon to the front of the chest...
I'm looking at a whole new set of models here, for the sake of something that is unlikely to actually shoot in any given game.

Lord Solar Plexus
14-04-2009, 09:13
This decision not to allow them lasguns is ridiculously stupid, period.
Taken in context, it defeats the purpose and usefulness of the order system and the point drop. In a bog standard Guard list with say 6 line squads, it adds up to 12 shots less per turn at up to 24". That is the equivalent of two Lieutenants issuing FRFSRF orders, only that they now have the chance to fail and must be in range.

Everyone who argues that we get so much or that everything gets cheaper simply ignores the fact that we lose small arms firepower for no discernible reason. Dropping the point costs was needed. Dropping the firepower even by a small amount feels like a huge amount of window-dressing.

Shangrila
14-04-2009, 09:23
Because it invalidates previously existing models that people have been using without incident.

But in the box i didnt think there is enough lasguns in a box to have 18 lasguns and the 2 special weapons?

Wolf123
14-04-2009, 09:30
But in the box i didnt think there is enough lasguns in a box to have 18 lasguns and the 2 special weapons?

Thats not the point. The point is, Guard Sergeants have (for a good chunk of time now at least) been able to use Lasguns instead of LP and CCW. To take away that option, and force anyone who has done that to buy new models or hack up their existing ones, is just another example of GW not giving a ****.

Raxmei
14-04-2009, 09:30
But in the box i didnt think there is enough lasguns in a box to have 18 lasguns and the 2 special weapons?
I happen to have a Cadian infantry sprue next to me at the moment. It contains five sets of lasgun arms, one set of grenade launcher arms, one set of flamer arms, and one set of laspistol and close combat weapon arms. The box of 20 contained four sets of sprues, so you could actually arm all twenty troopers with lasguns if you wanted.

Charax
14-04-2009, 09:34
Did you even bother to read what's it all about? It's not about losing the shots, it's about having to change all your sergeants from lasguns to pistols modelwise.

Except that nobody HAS to change anything - the rules state you have to model on any options you take - you don't have to model default equipment like the Laspistol & CCW, and as the Lasgun isn't a valid weapon option for sergeants, it doesn't matter if you have them modelled either.

So no, nobody has to remodel their armies, they just feel like blaming GW for what they choose to do.

Wolf123
14-04-2009, 09:39
Except that nobody HAS to change anything - the rules state you have to model on any options you take - you don't have to model default equipment like the Laspistol & CCW, and as the Lasgun isn't a valid weapon option for sergeants, it doesn't matter if you have them modelled either.

So no, nobody has to remodel their armies, they just feel like blaming GW for what they choose to do.

Oh I'm sorry Mr Pedantic. Fine does "People HAVE to remodel their armies if they want to keep playing" work for you? Since if they don't they cannot field legal Squads. Also, the rules say no such thing. What is the drivel you are spouting and where can I buy what you are smoking?

Charax
14-04-2009, 09:42
I love how you resort to insults and think that's a valid way to prove your point.

The "Using the army list" section of the codex. Unless it's been changed from the version I've seen the wording should be "any upgrades that are taken must be shown on the model"

Laspistols and CCWs aren't upgrades, they're default equipment - ergo you don't need to model them.

Wolf123
14-04-2009, 09:45
Hahahaha thats rich.
So its ok if I use pennies to represent my basic Guardsmen then? Since I don't have to model basic Equipment (which I assume includes the warm squishy body too)

Charax
14-04-2009, 09:54
Yes, you can - but good luck measuring line of sight

The Reductio ad absurdum is an even poorer way of proving your point than the ad hominem. The logic in this situation is simple:

- You do not have to model default equipment
- Laspistol/CCW is default equipment for sergeants in the new IG codex
- therefore you don't have to model Laspistol/CCW on your sergeants
- therefore anyone who is complaining that they *have* to remodel their sergeants is lying

People may wish to remodel them, they may choose to play in tournaments where it is a requirement, but you do not have to remodel your sergeants to play a standard game of 40K (which is what the rules in the codex cater for)

greenbull
14-04-2009, 10:54
Ho man, this is the most absurd statement I have read in a long time! Hilarious. Really. You don't have to model standard/default equipment?!

Charax
14-04-2009, 10:56
If it's so absurd, find a rule that states you have to.

Wolf123
14-04-2009, 11:06
If it's so absurd, find a rule that states you have to.

Its called WYSIWYG.

What rule can you show us the Specifically states you don't?

No twisting the "upgrade" clause about, because that wont do. Show us a specific rule that says "basic Wargear does not have to be modelled"

Charax
14-04-2009, 11:08
Where's the WYSIWYG rule? Publication, page and paragraph?

It's a myth

Nostro
14-04-2009, 11:30
The problem with your logic Charax is the modeled lasgun. As you say it I could model a boltgun, plasmagun, meltagun, sotrmbolter, powerfist, lascanon, or whatever option that as long as it's not available to the sarge? I can easily how things like that can go wrong, not everybody knows what options the guard have so can know what is legal or not. And it's painful eveytime you see a squad to have to wonder what option is not what it seems it is because it is illegal.

Charax
14-04-2009, 11:46
The problem with your logic Charax is the modeled lasgun. As you say it I could model a boltgun, plasmagun, meltagun, sotrmbolter, powerfist, lascanon, or whatever option that as long as it's not available to the sarge? I can easily how things like that can go wrong, not everybody knows what options the guard have so can know what is legal or not. And it's painful eveytime you see a squad to have to wonder what option is not what it seems it is because it is illegal.

How is that a problem with the logic? It's a flaw in the rules, but that's exactly how it works - if you model something with an option it can't have, that's fine - if you then use that option, it's cheating.

For example, you can model a Space Marine with a Tau Rail Rifle - that's fine
but if you then use it as a Tau Rail Rifle - that's cheating.

Your opponent's ignorance of your army's equipment options is not your concern, and the rules are as I have stated - the only things you're usually required to model are options taken - which means nobody has to remodel their lasgun-wielding sergeants, which was apparently people's primary objection to the new codex. If that brings up situations that "can go wrong" as you put it, then it's up to you whether you take advantage of the situation by confusing your opponent or not.

Unpalatable consequences of the rules do not make the rules any less valid. It's exactly like the TLOS rules - can you model units laying down so they're harder to hit? Yes, that's a flaw in the rules, not a flaw in the logic explaining the rules.

Anyway, we're drifting dangerously off topic with all the talk of what you need to represent, which has been covered extensively before (which Wolf123 should know, as he's been in threads before where the lack of WYSIWYG has been brought up).

Marshal Sinclair
14-04-2009, 12:14
I shall be using all my Krieg Watchmen with Lasguns. They don't come with pistols, there is no reasonable of of getting them without buying a command squad upgrade for every squad. That puts each of my squads at around 5x the price of a Cadian squad. Great idea.

Sir_Turalyon
14-04-2009, 12:59
Seregant got power weapon option instead, relatively cheapily; not a bad options exchange overaly.

As for modeling purposes, yes, mandatory equipment does not need to be modelled - the same way you don't have to model bolt pistols on all bolter-armed space marines after new codex. If you field squad of guardsmen, one of them is a seregant and is armed with laspistol / close combat weapon unless he has some legal upgrades modelled and paid points for. Just make sure it's obvious which model with lasgun is a seregant.

*Goes back to demoting his lasgun sarges to corporals and his power sword lieutenants to seregants*

Lyinar
14-04-2009, 13:11
And how about having an entire unit made useless? My Noise Havocs did the best out of that whole Chaos army I used to have, too...

If your sergeants are well-converted, I wouldn't have any problem with you using them as "counts-as" being armed with legal options that happen to not be the weapons the models are armed with. Then again, I'm not a tournament player, and think the tournament-only mindset is one of the biggest problems with the game and the community.

Orwin
14-04-2009, 13:13
One thing...is it just me or the codexes have been getting a little more strict concerning fluff options since the codex marines stopped using the abstract term "close combat weapon" to induce you to believe that there cannot be anything else in a marine's hand than ranged weapons or swords or chainswords?

Succoros
14-04-2009, 13:15
It pains me to think someone actually sat down and removed something so harmless purely due to thier own interpretation of what sarge should be like. Add to the fact that HW teams are single wound models and so I presume can only fire the HW, that adds up to a fair few lasguns (I know, thier las-shots, but still).

Akuma
14-04-2009, 13:35
Where's the WYSIWYG rule? Publication, page and paragraph?

It's a myth

No - It's a tournament standard. Almost all serious tournaments impose FULL WYSIWYG. Sure you dont have to do it if you are playing a buddy - but you dont have to play buddy with figures - do you ?

Ravensgard
14-04-2009, 13:38
no matter how rules are made, there will always be people who will be discontent.

IMO the rules GW gives are guidelines, if you agree with your opponent that your sergeants have lasguns, then why the hell would this be a problem?? I can not believe that there would be people who would say "no, i don't want your sergeants to have lasguns" I mean, lasguns, come on, if it would be a stormbolter or something not in the codex, i would kind of understand, but even then. Pay some points extra for the stormbolter upgrade and go for it. Especially if you can back it up with fluff.

jubilex
14-04-2009, 13:45
Hee hee!
I've spent the last few weeks worrying that I would have too many laspis + ccw guys...and I have!!!
I'm going to be chopping them off!!!

Btw, charax, the closest you will find to a wysiwyg rule, is on p47 of the rulebook, though it's more guidelines/suggestion/plea than a rule.

ehlijen
14-04-2009, 13:46
The wysiwyg rule, for those who are curious, is present in every single codex GW is selling as of now. The page number various, but it's always on the page that talks about how to build army lists and what the FO chart is.

And for the record, it does indeed only state that upgrades must be shown, not the base equipment. That does not mean that adding misleading bits of wargear (ie things that are on the model but not the armylist) won't be considered bad sportsmanship.

That said, if you don't believe in wysiwyg, then a miniature game like 40k may not be the right thing to play for you. There are plenty of fun hex'n'counter games and the like that offer anything from more balanced to more intricate rules without any of the trappings 40k is often accused of.

defunct
14-04-2009, 13:59
It pains me to think someone actually sat down and removed something so harmless purely due to thier own interpretation of what sarge should be like.
Agreed, wholeheartedly.

I'm very surprised to see this many people disappointed about this stupid change.

I personally don't care about the fact that I'm losing one lasgun shot per squad, I just like my sarges having lasguns because it makes sense in a way and looks good. Previously, I've given ccw wargear to high ranking officers only, as a status symbol.

I really hope a FAQ of somesort comes out. :D I think not.

Zedsdead
14-04-2009, 14:13
i dont understand the change....seems dumb. Ill even have to change a few of my sgts. as well


however........ /me looks at a fully built and painted Lysander wing awaiting a DW paint job and i have a hard time sympathising.

Hicks
14-04-2009, 14:18
however........ /me looks at a fully built and painted Lysander wing awaiting a DW paint job and i have a hard time sympathising.

Don't tell me your opponents won't let you field them as "count as" Dark Angels. If so, you should change your gaming circle, not your army.

SPYDER68
14-04-2009, 14:27
Im going to give all my guys power swords and say its ok, i had em before the new codex.

Then have ninja hidden power weapons all over..

....

Its not hard to stay wysiwig.. take your fancy Srg's and put them in the squad as a base guardsmen and use them as 2nd in command fluff/just for looks and wysiwig..

Or.. take all the fancy ones and use them in your command squads to look all tricked out.

Zedsdead
14-04-2009, 14:32
Don't tell me your opponents won't let you field them as "count as" Dark Angels. If so, you should change your gaming circle, not your army.


my club has no issue with it. I however do, so when i look at that army i used to field in tournys as well as fun i know its going to eventually need a new paint job, new loadouts and a new commander to make it codex legal.

Angelwing
14-04-2009, 14:35
what about poor WARRIOR WEAPONS, i know they suck normally and i dont even play them (i know somebody who has a spam infantry army FILLED with warrior weapon convertions)......


I have a guard army that uses necromunda escher models. Many of them are waving pistols, swords and whatever else that are not codex options. I simply count the whole lot as lasguns. Special and heavy weapons are what they are as they are obvious.
I didn't run any vet sergeants at all as it would be confusing for my opponents. Now that I have to distinguish the sergeant, I will simply be painting an 'S' onto the models base. Anyone else with a lasgun sergeant who isn't adding optional equipment can do the same and continue to use the same model with no problem. Optional wargear must of course be modelled on.
Yes, removing the option for a lasgun is annoying and doesn't make much sense, but the solution for non tournament games is simple.

yabbadabba
14-04-2009, 14:36
Once again, you don't HAVE to do anything. I cannot stress how important that is. As long as you and your opponent agree, you can do ANYTHING you want for any of GW's games.
If you go to a tournament you are obliged to play by the conditions of the tournament. That has NOTHING to do with GW and 40K.

kizzt
14-04-2009, 15:05
Before you all convert your lasgun equipped minis to CCW and Pistol (which is effort, like undoing my stupid conversions i did when i was 12, like the guard sarge with a bolter and a flame-pistol), why don't you wait a bit for some errata, just in case someone just forgot to write 'lasgun' as an alternative. You might just find it's a dumb typo (its not like every other dex doesn't feature /heaps/ of spelling, grammar, syntax and common sense errors).

SPYDER68
14-04-2009, 15:07
Before you all convert your lasgun equipped minis to CCW and Pistol (which is effort, like undoing my stupid conversions i did when i was 12, like the guard sarge with a bolter and a flame-pistol), why don't you wait a bit for some errata, just in case someone just forgot to write 'lasgun' as an alternative. You might just find it's a dumb typo (its not like every other dex doesn't feature /heaps/ of spelling, grammar, syntax and common sense errors).

GW doesn't have even close to a good Errata system :P

Even if it was a mistake.. most likely not, they would see it, not care due to its such a small thing.

Bekenel
14-04-2009, 15:25
I have a guard army that uses necromunda escher models. Many of them are waving pistols, swords and whatever else that are not codex options. I simply count the whole lot as lasguns. Special and heavy weapons are what they are as they are obvious.
I didn't run any vet sergeants at all as it would be confusing for my opponents. Now that I have to distinguish the sergeant, I will simply be painting an 'S' onto the models base. Anyone else with a lasgun sergeant who isn't adding optional equipment can do the same and continue to use the same model with no problem. Optional wargear must of course be modelled on.
Yes, removing the option for a lasgun is annoying and doesn't make much sense, but the solution for non tournament games is simple.
This is going to be my solution. My main IG army is Praetorian, so finding even Lasgun models at a reasonable price is hard enough let alone the Sergeants. One model in each squad will just have Sergeant written round the base, maybe an actual name. I contemplated using the Buglers as Sergeants since I never used to use Vox networks, but I might be tempted now that I've read the rules for Orders.

Major_Manny
14-04-2009, 15:38
I agree with *greenbull*, who cares bout the one lasgun, its the fact that ive spent hours painting my DKoK, and now i have to buy lots of expensive upgrade packs from FW. but at least my praetorian sgts are ready to rock and/or roll :)

Axel
14-04-2009, 16:20
My sergeants will now be reissued with laspistols of the long variant, who look to the casual observer like a lasgun so that the enemy is unable to pick them out. The standard issue knife that they have counts as CCW. To enable my opponent to identify them they will get a mark on their base.

Done. All WYSIWYG.

Wolf123
14-04-2009, 16:25
My sergeants will now be reissued with laspistols of the long variant, who look to the casual observer like a lasgun so that the enemy is unable to pick them out. The standard issue knife that they have counts as CCW. To enable my opponent to identify them they will get a mark on their base.

Done. All WYSIWYG.
BUT BUT! THE CODEX DOESN'T SAY YOU HAVE LONG BARRELLED LAS PISTOLS WHAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!
:rolleyes:

Marshal Sinclair
14-04-2009, 16:50
And how about having an entire unit made useless? My Noise Havocs did the best out of that whole Chaos army I used to have, too...

To equip a Krieg Watchman with a Krieg pistol and sword requires you to buy a Ģ8 upgrade set, since they don't come with the option any other way. That means each infantry squad is in the region of Ģ45. We need 10 of them. Noise Marines? Pah.

Lewis
14-04-2009, 16:56
My guards and traitor guards carry a mishmash of characterful kit (scopes, icons, hand weapons etc.) I really don't see how there will be a problem so long as I can clearly point out a sarge (whatever he's carrying) and a heavy weapon team and that the vox man actaully has a vox.

it's annoying from a characterfulness point of view but I'd trade it ten times over for vets-as-troops.

messenger
14-04-2009, 20:52
How do you guys actually know if it's no longer allowed?
I thought the Codex wasn't out until 2nd May...

SPYDER68
14-04-2009, 21:10
How do you guys actually know if it's no longer allowed?
I thought the Codex wasn't out until 2nd May...

Alot of shops have advance codex's already, so a few people have read them, or have them setting in front of them

Sir_Turalyon
14-04-2009, 21:29
i dont understand the change....seems dumb. Ill even have to change a few of my sgts. as well


Lasgun option was most useful - if not blantly intended - for not-veteran seregants. I were using it all the time in squads where seregant had stat line of ordinary guardsmen - that was best way of making him useful. When I bothered with upgrading seregants to veterans, giving them close combat outfit was best way to make them useful. Now non-veteran seregants are gone, and lasgun option is gone with them. It's still good modeling option for making characterful seregants, like terminator honours or spiky bits.


what about poor WARRIOR WEAPONS, i know they suck normally and i dont even play them (i know somebody who has a spam infantry army FILLED with warrior weapon convertions)......

Penal Legions, Veteran squads, conscript rabble...

SonofUltramar
14-04-2009, 21:29
Just how differently modelled are peoples Sgts? Granted some of mine have things like binoculars or are pointing so they are now a fire team leader and I have to paint a whole 4 new models to be Sgts to stay fully legal (and yes I intend to take the army to the 40K GT, my first tournament) which frankly I can live with

Hamarpain
14-04-2009, 22:33
I played game today without realising that they donīt get shotguns too. Oh well, i threw less attacks. Not that they made any difference. They still beat the living snot out of blood angels.

What really is weird Guardsmen having CCW. Unless they are planning something evil. Like in fantasy everybody having hand weapons... Or maybe Cruddance has played too much fantasy.