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billr
17-12-2005, 15:50
Been trying to get the gist on the ork release plans.

1. there's a picture in the rumor round up thread, but it wasn't clear to me what it was. Was it the upcoming kommandos or something else?

2. kommando models for the city scrum in summer '06

3. The most recent bit (that I could find) on a general update is here

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=349031&postcount=2

Is that still "accurate" as far as we know?

Any other tidbits?

Thanks all

Any other bits

Strikerkc
17-12-2005, 17:51
1. there's a picture in the rumor round up thread, but it wasn't clear to me what it was. Was it the upcoming kommandos or something else?


That post was all about the simpler "snap" together models that are being made, similar to how those in the battle for macrage box set were constructed. Just apears to be the box art for the orks available like that.

As far as Brimstone's estimate on codex order and relase schedual, I haven't seen anything from any reliable source that would contradict his post.

From a buisness point of view it's the most logical order also. The Ork codex may be in larger need of revision, but an Eldar redo will make them more money. So it seems logical that Eldar get the nod before Orks.

billr
17-12-2005, 18:07
Thanks Strikerkc. I guess I never thought of eldar as more popular than orks, but I haven't been following things very much lately.

Perhaps a quickie post in the roundup thread stating that as far as we know orks are coming sometime in '07 would be in order.

Mojaco
17-12-2005, 20:30
Odd thing with orks is that everyone loves them, but noone plays them. Though with the current rules that's hardly a surprise. They're not bad, but most other armies just have more variaty and... well, just more oomph.

A modelers dream still though.

Nazguire
17-12-2005, 22:09
Odd thing with orks is that everyone loves them, but noone plays them. Though with the current rules that's hardly a surprise. They're not bad, but most other armies just have more variaty and... well, just more oomph.

A modelers dream still though.

Indeed, the Orks seem to be an army, that after the new player has finished playing Space Marines, moves onto when they wish for a more 'hands on' approach to the hobby, instead of a gaming level. Which is why I believe that there are so many unit choices in the Ork Codex, simply so that the converter can go mad. And also why there are so few actual models to buy for the Orks because they want the converter to make them themselves (Ever wondered why Skarboyz, one of the most popular unit choices, have no actual models?) My theory at least.

billr
17-12-2005, 22:38
As to the people love them but nobody plays them... I can't speak for anybody else but the biggest thing that's held me back for them has been the vehicles. The current crop of ork vehicle kits don't work for me.

Da Reddaneks
17-12-2005, 23:20
my theory on why no one plays orks is first because they have a bad codex and secondly because of little attention given to the model line. simple as that. Mork and Gork please give us a codex that will bring life back into this wonderful army before they go the way of squats.

IncubiLord
17-12-2005, 23:28
I actually gathered my Orks in 2ed to help teach new gamers 40K.
I could build a viable Ork force for a small game and still lose to a newbie when the dice turned on me (apparently Mork dislikes my poor painting.)
I miss the random nature of the Orks now. Taking that away killed their flavor.

Orbital
17-12-2005, 23:43
As to the people love them but nobody plays them...

I don't understand generalizations like this. They're largely busted, sure, but lots of people do play them. There's a world outside of tournaments, you know.

IncubiLord
17-12-2005, 23:56
I'm one of 'em. Speed freaks are even still tournament-worthy.
Zzap trucks, a looted basilisk, warbikers, and a tooled-up Warboss make a fun combo.

grimsnagga
18-12-2005, 00:56
I don't understand generalizations like this. They're largely busted, sure, but lots of people do play them. There's a world outside of tournaments, you know.

I don't understand why people seem to thinks orks are busted. I've play orks and they work fine. Sure, there are a few things I think could be fine tuned, but, based on my experience, I think orks have one of the best army lists going.

sulla
18-12-2005, 02:52
I don't understand why people seem to thinks orks are busted. I've play orks and they work fine. Sure, there are a few things I think could be fine tuned, but, based on my experience, I think orks have one of the best army lists going.

Seconded.

I'd like to see all boyz have the ability to upgrade to skarboyz but so you could have small elite ork warbands if you wanted, or hordes of chaff and a couple more orky vehicles might be nice so they don't have to rely on imperial stuff, but I think all the guys demanding warbosses with t5 or other similar demands are just pie in the sky spurred on by Eldar dreamers and their owerblown wishlists.

Orks work fine at the moment, just like space marines and tyranids worked fine before their 4th edition books. The next Ork codex will only need tweaks, it's the model range that needs work.

Dreachon
18-12-2005, 10:28
Orks work fine at the moment, just like space marines and tyranids worked fine before their 4th edition books. The next Ork codex will only need tweaks, it's the model range that needs work.

Amen, the ork list is pretty much as godo as it still is, I'm beating 4th edition SM/Nids/BT with it.
A new codex will be little work to the codex itself but a lot of work to the models.
We might get some new stuff and such and more options but the list is a sound as it could be.

Latro_
18-12-2005, 13:00
Amen, the ork list is pretty much as godo as it still is, I'm beating 4th edition SM/Nids/BT with it.
A new codex will be little work to the codex itself but a lot of work to the models.
We might get some new stuff and such and more options but the list is a sound as it could be.

The problem is if you all posted your orky lists i'd go out on a limb to say they'd be very similar. Its cus Orks do work with certain selections. But vast ammouts of the codex are useless Stikka bombas.. etc..

grimsnagga
18-12-2005, 13:37
The problem is if you all posted your orky lists i'd go out on a limb to say they'd be very similar. Its cus Orks do work with certain selections. But vast ammouts of the codex are useless Stikka bombas.. etc..

I certainly won't argue that the ork list has some... suboptimum selections. :) It definately needs to be fine tuned, but I don't think the list itself is broken or in need radical revision.

(BTW... mine's a bloodaxe clan list: warboss w. retinue, 2x 9 kommandos w. nobs, 20 grots w. slaver & squighound, 24 slugga boyz w. nob, 2 rokkit buggies, 1 dreadnought, 1 looted 'russ, 1 looted hellhound.)

Jo Bennett
18-12-2005, 15:33
Stikkbombas not more effective against troops in cover if said troops are in power armour, and even if they're not it's a close run thing due to the points difference. Give Stikkbombas choppas and I think they would be worthwhile.

sanctusmortis
18-12-2005, 16:00
I'd like to see the return of orks as a characterful, ragtag army. Half of the fun of 2nd ed was the orky inventions that, when they worked, terrorised players, and when they didn't, amused them in equal measure.

I'd also like to see some character fed back into the clans - blood axes forming platoons, deathskulls having special looting gear, goffs having sharp bitz and so on.

And I don't play orks... :D

IncubiLord
18-12-2005, 17:33
I agree with sanctusmortis. It would be great if the orks had their random weapons back, and the clans could use more differentiation (ork doctrines).
Randomness should come back as an option. The orks should have decent gear, but the point of the roll-a-dice stuff was that it tended to be spectacular (one way or the other).
I particularly enjoyed the various terrors that could befall stormboyz. Having an Ork rocket strapped to your back can be a suicidal plan.

Tom
18-12-2005, 19:31
Agreed on the randomness stuff. It'd make the powergamers leave it far away but that's a good thing, and it makes the gamemore fun.

More randomness gives for greter chances of something rather funny happening.



I'd also like the basilisk removed from the looted section.


Not for deliberate nerfing, but for the fact that it's a no-brainer which doesn't at all fit in with the ork nature.

"Orite, Boyz. We iz gonna stand ere, an' lob artillery at 'em. Should be proppa fun."

Now, Hellhounds... THERE's an Orky tank. Or possibly looted vindicators for even more fun. Just it's invariably the Bassie...

RampagingRavener
18-12-2005, 19:53
Bring back the Shok attak gunz! Thats the one thing that needs to be brought back.

Something else I'd like to see would be for 'ard boyz (the 4+ save ones) and Skarboyz (the st4 ones) to be combined into one choice. Basicly, 'ard boyz are dropped and Skarboyz get the option to upgrade to have a 4+ save for +X points.

Just something to simplify them a bit, orks have a huge number of choices that could possibly compressed a bit.

firestorm40k
18-12-2005, 19:54
I agree with the gist of these comments so far, really the Ork list is fine and doesn't need any major overhauls. It's just a case of updating the vehicles and a few other models.

I like the ideas of upgrading boys to scarboys, I think it would create more variation for Orky armies.

So really Ork's don't need a big update, like Eldar are desperate for, just a few new models for people who aren't as talented as the likes of kr00za (legendary konverta of orky vehicles, for the uninitiated) or who can't afford FW prices.

TheOTHERmaninblack
18-12-2005, 20:06
I just munched some panzeez...oops, sorry, Eldar:o last night with a speed freeks list that I don't even like much, and which included almost a hundred points of gear that won't even work against eldar (although it scares hell out of guard players) Note to self: no more two buggy mobs as core speed freek armies:rolleyes: It's daunting to place your models and be outnumbered by even Marines:eek: , but the list does work if you don't mind massive casualties and the fact that, no matter how you go after them, marines require you to roll 5s or better to do any damage. My Blood axe and snakebite lists are also decent against most foes, although the snakebite shooty orks don't often suprise the same guy twice.
All that being said, I don't see ANYbody play vanilla orks anymore. Every single ork force I've seen fielded in the past two years has been some sort of clan specialty list, with KoS being by far the most prevalent. There's a reason for that, dontcha think?

And as for the looted basilisk? A really really big shoota that makes the best loud noise evah???:D How can an ork NOT take that? Give the orks a single decent artillary piece that will shoot farther than a grot can pitch a squig and you'll see far fewer of them.


as a side note, I just tried to spellcheck this post and got a message that I don't have permission to access that page. And I'm apparently limited to 4 smilies. How's THAT for orky randomness?

starlight
18-12-2005, 20:28
*Everyone* is limited to four smilies and the Spellchacker is down since the last upgrade.:D

...and when I say I play Blood Axes, it doesn't mean the Klanz *list*, because I still use the regular Codex, just like I always have.:p

Grimaldus
18-12-2005, 20:30
I agree with most of the comments so far...the Ork army list itself really is pretty good, as far as I can tell anyway. I actually quite like it. Sure, it certainly needs a few tweeks this way and that, and some added Klans material for extra flavour, but at the end of the day, the list is good...not great(yet), but good.
I'm with a few other people when they say that one of the big things holding me back from playing Orks is the poor quality, obvious age, and overall crappy appearance and look of the current vehicles...which I believe were the "current vehicles" back when I was 14 years old;) I'm now 22, and well, I think it's soon time for the Ork vehicles to grow up too. We all know they...they just aren't good, and it's really difficult and time/cash money consuming to make them look good...it's hard to want to spend all the time and money to convert, nearly from scratch(!), a vehicle with armour 10 all around, that's most likely going to be either a) one of many, or b)on the table until turn 2, at which point it's blown to pieces.
So, new Ork vehicles being released, along with all the other goodies of course, will be the sign I've been waiting for to start building an Ork Waaagh! It's not a subtle sign, really, is it? I mean, it's not some explosion of lights in the sky at a prophesized time, but...Orks aren't all that subtle themselves, so I'll consider that a sign in itself. Until then, I'll work my Tyranids like crazy.
I've been hearing really great things about the new Ork vehicle plastics too. Obviously, nothing definite, but with the way things are going, I'm expecting great things.

IncubiLord
18-12-2005, 20:49
If we're wish-listing, I want to see what the orks are like from a world that the tyranids have seeded.
Bug spores are supposed to turn the local flora into really nasty stuff, and the Orks reproduce through spores that grow into plants that grow orks...
I think there's some very strange potential here.

Vaya
18-12-2005, 20:54
Nah, they just turn into Biovores. ;)

billr
18-12-2005, 20:57
If we're wish-listing, I want to see what the orks are like from a world that the tyranids have seeded.
Bug spores are supposed to turn the local flora into really nasty stuff, and the Orks reproduce through spores that grow into plants that grow orks...
I think there's some very strange potential here.

That sounds like a conversion project. :D

IncubiLord
18-12-2005, 21:10
Yeah. An Ork with stranglevines for hair, one with a venus mantrap growing off his shoulder, thorny orks...
Somebody could go crazy with it.

cailus
19-12-2005, 02:15
I find them to be competitive. Just yesterday I played the Defend the Shrine scenario with my Orks against Word Bearer Chaos Marines (well actually it was a case of "Defend the shrine so we can keep on desecrating it").

In the end there were only 2 Chaos Marines alive and no Orks. If this game was played with my other army, the Tau, then it would have been a slaughter (depending on dice rolls). I have never played a close game with the Tau - either I slaughter the opponoent or the opponent slaughters me.

But the Orks are super-balanced. They do not have dominating units. It's a challenge to play them especially non-Speed Freeks and I actually use more tactics and am forced to make more decisions than with Tau or Marines or even Nids.

billr
19-12-2005, 02:29
Yeah. An Ork with stranglevines for hair, one with a venus mantrap growing off his shoulder, thorny orks...
Somebody could go crazy with it.

I wonder if those wood elf plastics would be good for that sort of thing.

Cannoness Lina
19-12-2005, 02:49
The Ork list right now just has nothing going for it that at least 2 armies don't do better. And to those who think that eldar need a revision more I would piont out that even at the GT CW Eldar do well, while the only ork lists that are passable is the Feral Orks.

hood_oz
19-12-2005, 03:56
The Ork list right now just has nothing going for it that at least 2 armies don't do better. And to those who think that eldar need a revision more I would piont out that even at the GT CW Eldar do well, while the only ork lists that are passable is the Feral Orks.

Actually it is more of a speed choice rather than anything. Eldar have some decent vehicle kits, and have a fairly complete range, in regards to miniatures to codex choices.

Building up the orks in either plastic or metal, re-doing the vehicles is going to take time. True orks really are not that bad combat wise, but the lack of minis for troop selections and lack of decent minis, means a lot more development time is needed for making the kits. The multipart ork big vehicle project has been bandied about for years, and is still only a rumour. THe quality of the kits is really poor. Well, compared to other armies. Even the older eldar stuff still looks alright in comparison.

Rules wise, we see eldar getting craftworld, dark eldar, and harlequins. But I heard rumours of the possibility of one or two additions that had been dropped previously. Wether this was pure fabrication or some insider knowledge, only time will tell.

But considering the focus of City of Death, we will see the new pathfinders, and have a hint at any style changes. The plastic war walker and possibly other plastics for eldar comes as a nice change, but am not going to hold my breath for the clear plastic canopy to represent the power field on the walker. It is just too easy to get wrong.

I like orks, but struggle with the fact that it has been a long time since we got gretchin, the last plastic ones were fairly ordinary, and the metal were just WAY too expensive to justify huge mobs of ablative gretchin. I was much happier spending that amount on the last space hulk box when it came out.

There has been talk of using the traits style of options to show off different craftworlds, and their army style, but have no solid info on it.

To be honest, the red and black shirts I know complain I tell them more than GW management tells them. Only one of them is ever in the know and he just says things like 'Best not buy that XXXXX model for a few weeks, or get XXXXX but not XXXX' and sometimes, 'The new artwork will filter out in a few weeks/months and you will see some new stuff for XXXXX armies' Even he said he enjoyed reading the rumours on portent as he heard more than he was told officially. Apart from the slagging of his staff, he hated that.

Actually much like what Brimstone alludes to.
;)

cenpjas
19-12-2005, 09:42
Well, I am in agreement with most people here. In that

1. I belive the ork codex is not totaly flawed
2. It does need a rewrite, just a smigen more work than a 'tweek'.
3. Everybody seems to agree (and me) on the issues with models.

Why do I think No2? Well...

All new codex's work on a flexable system usualy based on a points system where you can spend a number of points on traits.

I like this idea, and the Orks could really do with it.

I for example have a speed freak army, which is made up of 'bigga orks. So all the vehilces are driven by grechin. All the orks are one model size class up (so my warboss is in a dreadnough), all my bodyguard orks are based on gazskull modles, all nobs are warbos models and all boyz are nob models.

I figured that whist the driving boyz in a spead freak army might be 'weaker' cos they do less hand to hand fighting, the truck boyz and boss would be even harder cos there alwas first to the fight!.

However I found the army very had to deal with when building. I have experiance of Tau, CSM, and Nids. (played with most armys now). I found the orks had to deal with for serveral reasons.

The War Trakk versions

Big shoota : not brilliant, quite dear for a one shot weapon.
Scorcha : Fantastic, might be one shot but well worth the points. (fear weapon)
Rokett : quite poor but you need anti tank, the gun truks with zap are more reliable, Roket trakks are quite dear for what they do.
MegaBlaster: Its fantastic when it works. However its Really really expensive, it can kill its self (1 it goes bang, 5-6 it hits), you need 3 just to almost manage 1 hit/turn, and its a one shot weapon. (ie it is a high priotity target).

Of these the Wartrak with megablaster is the most insane, and I only found this out after spending Ģ19 on models and many hours converting and painting three of them. The weapon is bad enough, and random enough (5-6 to hit) with out also blowing its self up. - it takes pleasure away rather than adding to it, net result is I do not feild these in any game below 2000 points and even then I have much much better choices.

Now to change the note a bit, the cheapest boy you can have is 8 points, and when you compair that chap to any other basic trooper it does not come out well. (only shootaboyz are this cheap, other orks start around 10+).

So its points are not 'horde' points cost, yet you seem to be forced (in a normal ork list) to run accorss the board in a nid like fashion (as there is not really a choice in the list, you do not easly make an ork shootie army.)

I have many moans and grumbles about the ork codex, and I am gona continure with this (growing rant) so you might want to stop here.

However going back to the army I made. It was created because I could, orks are all about 'custom jobs and they look really amazing. However I found that some choices on the ork list you just do not make.

Take Megaarmour as an example. The cheapest nob you get is 20 points. Now you Will take both a boss pole(re-roll Ld) and horns/iron gob (+1Ld) because you really need it. (nob now 29pts) This is particulary important where your mod is low, for example where you have a vehicle with limited space, or where you expect to take heavy losses. (ie everyware in an ork army).

Now staying with the subject of Nobbs, say you want to have an Nob with an improved save and powerfist because you know your gona have to face SM's or similar, say necrons. This will cost you another 33 pts for a powerclaw and 4+ save. (ontop of the 29 for the nob, thats 62 points for a not particulary brilliant model with a powerfist)

Now most people (other ork players I have spoken two) suggest that you want to give every squad a Nob in megaarmour, this costs 30pts, which is 2pts cheaper for a 2+ save over 4+!!!! - eeehhh?, ahh but its ok because then you suffer the 'alwas move as in difficult terrain', 1D6. Thus your boyz become really slow, however you can spend an extra 10 pts on mega boostas that let you roll 2D6 and chouse the highest.

Now the problem I have here is, you have a 60+ point model, at the very least you will need to buy the nob and leadership bonuses or your force will never make it, as the cost of the orks is so high you can not or will not feild units of 30 as it gives your opponent two big a target to concentrate on.

As to address the problem of the warboss's toughness, the Warboss is not the toughest 'boy' in an ork army as a Cybork is T5, S4 which is the warboss's stats reverced.

And the Warboss can not be upgraded to T5 unless by bike.

I mean there is holes alloever the army lists. I for example would like to beable to give my warboss and body guard jump paks as after all they are speed freakz.

rant end, its just cos I'm tiyered and sleepy.

NB: you can only have one looted vehicle in an ork army. Since orks can't hit the side of a barn, like big bangs and such I too use a basalisk, however this is being replaced with a leman russ demolisire. (with heavy flamer sponsons).

NNB: Speed Freaks suffer so much if you did not take boyz in trucks (as you can take trakkx as troops) when playing a city fight. This upcomming one might well be a let down for my SF.

-cen

warbeast
19-12-2005, 13:58
I don't want Orkz to go back to LOoney. I love how they are now. Big mean killing machines. They are still funny in there own way (check: Inferno or most fluff stories about them outside of war). And to anything being changed: Vehicles. That's really all they need. Someone mentioned they have no powerfull unit. Ever seen a Skarboy unit 20 strong with Nob with pk/chopp and a boss with pk/choppa? Or more to point a 9 Nob boss unit? I've played near 40 games now in 4th edition and have lost twice with them. Both were just to time limits. And to saying all lists are the same. Ya right. I field a completly different type of list each game. Super smashy with Kanz, Dreads, mega armoured nobz. Speed freak type lists, heavy bike lists all troop lists. Try 120 or so models in a 1500 game.

Anyways I think they are fine but do need a buggy,trukk,bike upgrade deffinatly. I love the Ork plastic boy sets, could use a Rokkit in their and Big shoota though.

cheers:evilgrin:

billr
19-12-2005, 17:04
I picked this out of Violenceha's signature: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=358302&postcount=12

Too funny!

IncubiLord
19-12-2005, 17:57
I don't want Orkz to go back to LOoney. I love how they are now.
They don't have to be looney. Back in 2ed you could build an ork force that used few random things and still had a chance, iirc. Even now, Ork artillery is a remnant of the "mad ork" days. On a bad roll, something awful happens to a poor grot. :evilgrin:
I would like looney to be a viable option. Give the players who just want a laugh something that they may well lose with, but still have a chance.
I like the brutal Orks, and crazy Ork options would allow you to play something silly outside a tournament. Then you could turn around and use the slice 'n dice options in more serious games if you want.
Don't kill the current flavor, just give us a way to get the previous one that so many players got a kick out of.

TheOTHERmaninblack
19-12-2005, 19:20
In following this thread, I finally realized why, with all the armies I field, I play orks most often. It has alot to do with the thin, sad remnants of the 2nd ed versions. Of all the races in the 40K universe, only the orks enjoy themselves. That's what keeps me playing them in spite of it all. I'm not saying they can't win, I'm not saying they're horribly broken. I'm saying they could and should be a whole lot better while still being balanced. I'd like more people to play them. I'd like to not have to send prospective ork players to other stores to purchase componants of their army. I'd like to see them (the most warlike race in the entire galaxy) keep up with S.M. Jones as Jonsey evolves into a more powerful character along with the bugs, the 'oomies, and etc....

Yeah, it's funny to see the seer council slaughter my buggies and then take three times the wounds from self-impalement as they took from ork fire, but that sort of funny can only carry enthusiasm so far in the face of a burna-boy unit that costs more than a comparable space marine squad and dies without saves from *******' LASguns.

<initiate rant mode>

GW needs to make up their minds about the greens. If they're gonna be a hoarde army, make 'em cheap as gaunts or guardsmen. If they're gonna be hand to hand, make 'em stronger, like marines or even KROOT! If they wanna make them all 'round, make skarboyz troops rather than elites, and give huntas to freebooters as well as the snakebite and feral specialty lists. Give them indigenous tanks, bring back the wierdboyz, make it possible to give them a meaningful armor save. Make them a playable army that doesn't need the mandatory "you have to be able to have fun losing" preface.

<rant mode terminated>

Tulun
20-12-2005, 11:13
Now, Hellhounds... THERE's an Orky tank. Or possibly looted vindicators for even more fun. Just it's invariably the Bassie...

You do realize you can loot a Demolisher ? :) Makes a Vindicator look like a ******* war trukk...

redbeard
21-12-2005, 14:37
I would like looney to be a viable option.

Looney cannot be a viable option. The folks over at Magic discovered this. Random effects in any competative game, where tournaments are involved, have to be toned down to a non-competative level. Because, you don't want someone winning a tournament because of a lucky coin-flip.

As a result, looney stuff has to be overpriced compared to its best possible effect.

I would like to see the randomness taken out of the ork list. I see the orks as a barbaric race, not a humourous sidebar in a largely dark and grim future. Herding your grots across a mindfield is ok. Putting them as pilots in kamakazie bombs is ok. I'd like to see them done as a fully competative army that fits in a dark, grim universe.

IncubiLord
21-12-2005, 15:07
Every army in the game can win by luck already.
This isn't a card game where trooper A is sure to beat lackey B, it's a dice game where you can see a terminator get knifed to death by a grot.
There's a reason people say "you can't beat the dice."
Actually, I think allowing a large amount of random wargear would make the army more balanced. By increasing the amount of dice you roll we decrease the chance of you rolling well for an entire game.

Bestial Fury
22-12-2005, 14:34
I'd have to agree from my army's standpoint. It is all drop pods. Definitley can have some feast or famine scenarios based on the lucky roll of the dice.

Wolf Scout Ewan
22-12-2005, 16:02
Orks have plenty of Oooomph... its just that they have lost their character, from amusing yet dangerous to psycho raving close combat freaks.

When I think of Orks I think about the Kev Walker artwork, the shokk attack gun and weapons just as likely to kill your boyz as your enemy.

I really dont like the modern Orks, they take themselves far too seriously.:eyebrows: :rolleyes:

NakedFisherman
22-12-2005, 16:14
Orks have plenty of Oooomph... its just that they have lost their character, from amusing yet dangerous to psycho raving close combat freaks.

When I think of Orks I think about the Kev Walker artwork, the shokk attack gun and weapons just as likely to kill your boyz as your enemy.

I really dont like the modern Orks, they take themselves far too seriously.:eyebrows: :rolleyes:

Do you play Orks?

Wolf Scout Ewan
22-12-2005, 16:20
Yeah.

My 2nd 40k army. Led by Warboss Badgutz.

Grumblebelly
22-12-2005, 17:10
I agree with Wolf Scout completly 100%

The Orks have definitly lost their character and the removal of the shokk attack gun speaks volumes about how the orks have changed.

New players in the last 5 years or so will never know what it was like to be truely Orky!

In addition I had asked the guys at GW and they mentioned some sort of re-release of Gorkamorka when the new Ork minis arrive. They will probably put the rules on the net and leave it at that.

charlie_c67
22-12-2005, 17:46
The whole point of orks is their unpredictablness (that a word?) they were a joy and a frustration in equal measure. The same army could roll over one army or self destruct a game later. It kept both you and your opposition on they're toes all the time. Something that's sadly lacking nowadays.

IncubiLord
22-12-2005, 19:01
unpredictablness (that a word?)
Not according to MS Word, but it likes unpredictability.

Also, Orks were teh army to play for a laugh in 2ed. Winning isn't so important when you get to see a stormboy's rocket fail to turn off, sending him flying off the board. Turn around and the random ranged, random Str Kustom weapons blasted the crap out of something that they should never have hurt, and snotlings just appeared in a Land Raider's crew compartment. It was great imagery.

Lanfiex
22-12-2005, 20:15
unpredictablness (that a word?)

dosnt matter if its a word. at the least it a "Gerund" it is a majour part of the english language that you can add to word convaying a new meaning.

agreed thought that orks should be random this game is connected to luck and the more luck the better the game. (P.S. Magic is a boring game IMO)

Wolf Lord Duregar
22-12-2005, 20:39
I see a lot of whinging from non.Ork players that theyīre "not funny anymore" "and the Klans should come back" etc etc etc..!

Well, have a look in the codex and youīll see that Orks still are fun and the Klans are there. What was removed was the clown-thing about Orks. And they became a unique army, not green Guardsmen...:rolleyes:

IncubiLord
22-12-2005, 21:34
All right, Warboss Duregar, when did you start playing?
I have Orks from 2ed (as I stated), and I still play them off and on. I can tell you, from experience as an Ork player, that the klans have been dumbed down, things aren't as fun as they were, AND Orks are now just another close range army.

Before you dismiss this as a gripe-fest by players of other armies, take another look. A good number of the posters have Orks. By my count, 1/3 have Orks, and roughly a quarter of the others show interest in collecting them.

Easy E
22-12-2005, 22:16
I have played Orks since RT era. I feel that I have a grasp of how they have evolved.

First off, Let's face facts. 40K is a tournament game now. 1st edition and 2nd edition were not designed for tournament play. Hence you could get a lot of wierdness. Now days, this will not fly. You can not have randomenss, as it defrauds the entire idea of a tournament. As such, the craziest thing we are likely to see in a new Codex is Gets Hot! style rules.

Secondly, the Orks have evolved from early RT as your basic/generic maruader types, to 2nd edition "killa Klowns from Outa Space", to third edition green savages. The trick is to balance out what "was" with what "is". The answer is perspective. From the victims point of view they are mercilees, brutal, savage maruaders. From the Ork point of view it is all in good fun.

Thirdly, The Current Codex is currently the most balanced list out there. This is one of its strengths and greatest weaknesses. A strength as it makes for fun, close games at the local shop. Weakness as it leads to close games that do not lead to decisive wins (Big Points) in the tournament scene. Clearly, the codex must be tweaked for tournament play, as 40K is now a tournament game. However, how do you do this and still keep the local shop game feel?

That's my analysis of the Ork Dilemna.

Grumblebelly
22-12-2005, 23:26
Yeah the Ork has definitly changed to meet the requirements of a tournament game. The Ork concept will probably drift towards more savage gorrila and less insane lunatic. To be honest I dont see anything games workshop could do to prevent this. Orkyness is not dark enough to be sustainable in the current 40k universe.

Its time for the specialist games to take over and sustain the Ork madness. In my opinion all they need to do is release the new ork vehicle kits and make Gorkamorka available for download.

Easy E
22-12-2005, 23:27
Yes, Gorkamorka download! That would be sweet.

However, due to the imminent demise of Specialist games I think we can count that out.

nathonicus
23-12-2005, 00:32
I started playing orks in WHFB, and they have gotten more "serious" too in the latest edition. I have to say that for me, the joy of playing orks is stomping around, singing orky songs, charging, shooting, and blasting for the sheer joy of it. To that end, all things that encourage risk-taking make the orks more fun to play. This includs "loony" weapons that pose enormous risks for the user or crazy strategies that could work great but could also go horribly wrong. The fighta bomber raid is one of the few things that feels really orky to me in 40k, all though the Spead Freak vehicles have some good upgrades like Stikk Bomb chuckas and Turbo-boostas which encourage risky play. I would really like to have some more optional high-risk weapons/strategies available to the orks. Animosity in WHFB is a good example of the randomness that makes orks fun. Of course for those who want to minimize that element, there are hero and item choices which can do that, but they cost. I would like a little more of that with the 40k orks.

Other than that, I think that ork variants are pretty playable. Whenever I Play or play against regular orks it tends to be pretty bloody on the ork side, though. (Except for in city fght, where the cover and 6 inch fighting distance really play to orks.) I would like to see maybe some good upgrades for not only skarboys or hardboys, but for dreadnaughts and killa kans, as well, since Okr shooting is so bad and it can be really hard to get them in combat. Maybe some sort of turbo-boosta for the dread?

As long as I'm dreaming, what about cheaper zzzap guns? I love the randomeness, but since I allways seem to roll strength 3 shots, they rarely are worth taking...

Grot
23-12-2005, 07:50
Even now that the snotlings are gone, they could bring back the Shokk Attack Gun, easily. It would just work a little differently. Without the snotlings jumping out of the whole and freaking out all over (or inside) someone / something, it would be easy to turn the Shokk Attack Gun into a ork version of the D-Cannon of eldar fame. The basics are the same - both guns open a temporary tiny black hole inside something. Except in this case, that would be the end of it, rather than the snotlings showing up. They could even use the same old Shokk Attack Gun charts, with rewording. For example, instead of freaked-out snotlings showing up in a cockpit and killing a vehicle's driver (vehicle immobilized), they could reword it to say the warp-hole sucks the driver right out of his vehicle (still resulting in vehicle immoblized).

Of course, the other thing you could do with the Shokk Attack Gun is something I saw on the Portent Forums, I beleive it was Mad Dok Grotsnikk's idea. The Shokk Attack Gun gets much bigger (I think it was either immobilized or on a trukk), crewed by a mekboy team (instead of a single mek carrying it) and basically it can move ork units around, deepstriking and such, all-thoughout a battle. (Very much like the monolith.) If memory serves, although an impressive device, it was also typically less-than-perfect - a random number of boys could make it through instead of the unit. (Meaning that your nob and one of his guys could end up in charging a Leman Russ Battle Tank, rather than all 20 of his krak-bomb carrying boys.)

In fact, that seems like a pretty tempting option for the foot-slogger players (because not everyone is a speed-freak, and not everyone wants to have ork vehicles. [Because hordes should march.]) I wonder if there's potential for that oversized-shokk attack gun device... Hell, they wouldn't even have to rename it, I imagine teleporting orks attacking all over the place would still shock enemy troops.

Anyway, moving on. I wouldn't mind madboys that are dangerously crazy, rather than stupid crazy. Right now, only feral orks get madboys, and that unit's only benefit is occassional fleet-of-foot, but more likely ends up being a self-pinning, self-falling back, or self-killing unit. Anyone remember all the charts in the old ork "Ere We Go" book? For example, one of the better results for 'bloodlust madboys' was that they freak out, believe themselves unstoppable, and if you got them in hand-to-hand, they proceeded to double their strength and their attacks. I mean, there's a scary and useful ability, and it's random enough. (You won't always roll that effect on one of 9 charts.)

Or how about more bionics? I don't mind that there isn't 11 pages (literally) for ork bionics anymore, but how about more than three? Cybork body (5+ Invunerable Sv), Bionic Bonce (+1 Sv) and Bionic Arm (+1 Atk) are great, but how about a little more variation? Like bringing back targerter eyes (which could just be +1 BS now), or some of the crazier bionic leg types (Suction cup feet - ignore vertical terrain like flesh-hooks, or jumpin' legs, or the delux kickin' legs of gorkamorka fame?) How about the exploding cranium? (Do you want to charge that weakened mob with your lightning-claw terminators? Are you sure?) Another effective one was the dual-body occupancy, which was basically two ork heads grafted onto one body (occasionally with one or two bionic arms thrown in - historically, this allowed the ork to fire two heavy weapons with perfect accuracy, or to charge and fire two assault weapons normally).

In my own little world, bionics are (and should be) very similar to all the options the tyranid big-bugs get to tweak their stats. The tyranids evolve a better bug, the orks go to their painbosses and the painboss invents a better ork.

As for humour, a lot of the bionic stuff and the madboy stuff was unique, characterful and funny without being dumb. It was sort've a weird, orky-clever funny (Can you imagine a unit sitting on the roof of a building, giggling at an ork with suction-cup feet struggling to walk across the street, only to watch in horror when he started to walk up the wall? Or how about a nob with two heads, four arms, and two big shootas, but a horrible leadership value, because the boyz in the mob could never decide which head to listen to?) As opposed to the current ork 'humour' (it explodes, killing the ork / mob / vehicle. Isn't that hilarious?)

You don't have to blow up an ork to be funny. The orks used to be funny in a awesome, weird, brutal way, and if I have to endure the endless monkey and gorilla jokes (The Eldar and Tau are especially hilarious when refering to humans, apparently), then Games Workshop could hopefully be bothered to write a few new jokes that don't involve primates and the imperial guard. (I get it. All alien languages refer to people as primates in english. Good one.)

What else...

Weirdboyz were awesome too, especially the different types. (Weirdboy, Warphead, and the occasional Daemon-Possessed Weirdboy). They had spells that were unique and orky, it wasn't just the two spells of "He throws up! Get it? Hilarious!" and "The ork God stepped on your unit! (Apparently, orks believe that their Gods are very very small, since their feet are only blast-template sized.)"

And while I'm ranting, I'd also like to bring up the interaction between units. There used to be grot mobs that 'copied' ork units, or as another (far better example) the weirdboy being able to effect the madboy's behaviour while getting something in return. (For example - the madboys are freaking out (pinned), the weirdboy runs over, does his thing, builds up enough energy to Death-Wave a carnifex, and then the madboys proceed to un-freak-out and charge the nearby unit of warriors, and beat them all to death with their bare hands.) [Or, if you didn't roll well, the weirdboy might have used the wrong spell, therefore enhancing the carnifex to super-human abilities, while the madboys run over to the other side of the map to charge the unit wearing purple.]

That was the kind of scenario that made the orks orky. It was either go big or go home. Now, the orks mostly go home.

The way the orks 'believe stuff works, so it does', is also really dumb. If an ork gun works because he believes it does, why does he believe it only hits on a 5 or 6? If my gun was magic, and powered by my brain, you better believe it would be BS 6, assault 10, S 10 AP 1 ordnance blast. Here's another one. The orks believe that their stuff works well, so why are mega armour nobs kill-able? Wouldn't the ork believe that his super-thick armour would protect him against everything?

But, as the saying goes, don't expect a Tech-PRIEST to know a damn thing about how Ork Mekaniks make their stuff work.

While on that subject, why don't the orks get all sorts of force-fields anymore? They get the cover-save one, that's it. Orks used to be famous for their force-field technology, they used to have the equivalent of the space marine chaplain thing (4+ invunerable save), Yarrik's force field (roll a dice, and the strength of the shooting attack becomes S - Dice roll.) And so on. And how about the old ork 'artilery'? How about the bubble-chukka (enemy unit is trapped in a force-field bubble), or the lifta-droppa (Pick up a unit and drop them, perhaps on another unit.)

I mean, the orks used to have all this fantastic technology. I realize the imperium has lost it's golden-age of technology, but that doesn't mean every race except the tau should lose out too. The orks have always been born innovators and inventors who know how to do this kind of stuff. Why did they all suddenly forget?

In closing, I love my "'Ere We Go" book, in case you couldn't tell. Even if you ignore the rules portions, the amount fluff on ork inventions and technology is incredible. (It's about an inch thick, plus my 'Freebooters' book, which has a crazy amount of fluff for... well, extremely creative mercenary units.)

Grot
23-12-2005, 07:54
One other thing that really really pisses me off. If you're going to give an ork unit a BS of 3, and explain that BS 3 by saying "they find the guns and practice a lot", then how about giving the BS 3 to my lootas too? Not only do they practice a lot more (because they start life in a society that produces guns, they don't walk around the jungle until they find one, so therefore, they'd be used to firing guns long before wiping out the devestator squad and re-equiping the mob), but they have access to Meks, who, you know, could produce ammunition for them.

Scactha
23-12-2005, 09:28
Lovely posts Grot. I donīt play 40k anymore because of the dumbing down and this is one of the reasons. It was fun with all the wackyness yet it was quite effective at a reasonable level. I could bring alot of heavily armoured elite and big guns or a horde or a mix or a killer clown total zanyness list. Now itīs just a horde of moving targets for the ever present SM&E that goes splutch.

I loved my tooled up Blood Axe retinue with their Ooman advisor. Add up some Power armoured Minders and mobs with looted imperial weaponry each led by a camouflaged nob with an officers cap all zipping around in rhinos. It was like IG on stereoids with some marine flavour and looked ace! But most important they, didnīt die like flies, they were kick ass hard savages with a militaristic bent. Not Moria goblins lost in space.

Insane Psychopath
23-12-2005, 09:34
Scactha: Lovely posts Grot. I donīt play 40k anymore because of the dumbing down and this is one of the reasons. It was fun with all the wackyness yet it was quite effective at a reasonable level. I could bring alot of heavily armoured elite and big guns or a horde or a mix or a killer clown total zanyness list. Now itīs just a horde of moving targets for the ever present SM&E that goes splutch.

I loved my tooled up Blood Axe retinue with their Ooman advisor. Add up some Power armoured Minders and mobs with looted imperial weaponry each led by a camouflaged nob with an officers cap all zipping around in rhinos. It was like IG on stereoids with some marine flavour and looked ace! But most important they, didnīt die like flies, they were kick ass hard savages with a militaristic bent. Not Moria goblins lost in space.

Scactha do you have photos of this army???

Just in 2 days now I will be making a Death Krop theme army for my Speed Freaks. Fluff wise there copy the armour company... but as scouts. There base on Death Korp because there a cool Guard army & also Orks with Gas Mask & Trench Coat a very rarely seen.

IP

Grumblebelly
23-12-2005, 09:38
Gud post Grot! Nuff said mefinkz.

nathonicus
23-12-2005, 17:19
I mean, the orks used to have all this fantastic technology.
units.)

These rules sound great! I came to the game too late (3rd ed) to see most of them. Is anybody interested in making a fan-based 4th ed Ork wargear post that would update some of the "loony" rules and technologies for fourth ed? I think this would be awesome and much appreciated by us yoofs.

Easy E
23-12-2005, 20:27
Let's make it loony and drive the sales of our beloved army down even more! People do not buy on loony (unless they all ready have two armies and have played for 5 years) they buy on effectiveness.

Would you want to win a game because you happened to roll three sixes in a row so your Madboyz with a Wierdboy managed a mega-deathwave that annihalated 2 squads of marines, or would you prefer to win a game because you positioned your tankbustas in a position where they got a clear shot at an enemy speeder and then managed to roll three 6's in a row to destory it? See the difference? Both require a bit of luck. One you can try and manage the probabilities and the other is just random. What satisfaction can you take from winning a game with from being random?

Secondly, who is the future of the hobby. It is the kids. What do they want, effective or loony? I think the number of ork armies out there now helps answer that question. They would prefer (Sweeping Generalization Alert!) effective. If we can not start a new generation on our favorite army, what future does it have. A Dark Eldar future, that's what.

Granted, I loved all the bionics and force-field technology as well. The question is how can we make it interesting without being completely random.

nathonicus
23-12-2005, 20:33
Granted, I loved all the bionics and force-field technology as well. The question is how can we make it interesting without being completely random.

Good points -- completely random is not fun, but I don't think that the effectiveness for the kiddies is the sole argument for army survivability-- if people buy armies for effectiveness soley, then they will just keep buying the next, newest and best army that beats the others, like in fifth edition fantasy. I think that armies maintain a fan-base best when they couple character with effectiveness, and as is obvious from many of these posts, the sacrifices made on the character side have actually lost many players.

Maybe something GW could do (it would also make them more money!) is release "Omega" codexes or some such which would have rules that were only used by advanced gamers but which could bring back some of the complexity of expanded wargear and tactical choices.

Just a thought.

TheOTHERmaninblack
23-12-2005, 23:38
@easy e, I'd be interested in hearing your reasoning behind 40K being turned into a tournament game. I couldn't point to one player in 10 who's even BEEN to a tournament let alone played in one in the past 3 years. The concensus around here is that the game has split into two tiers (ala MTG) the gamers who play all the time because they love the game, and the "professionals" who spend their lives in pursuit of the next tourney win. Not surprisingly, when the "pros" show up, the level of fun to be had in the room drops precipitously.

@nathonicus: The Dark Millenium project, which is the omega version you refer to, has been kicking around for a couple of years now, and although GW staffers alude to it now and again, the only physical manifestations of it are home grown codices cobbled together by players in various forums. At this point, I seriously doubt GW has any serious plans along thost lines.

IncubiLord
24-12-2005, 03:23
I'd be willing to work on a thread for creating more orky weapons and gear, but that's not something I would tackle alone. A shock attack gun could become a squiggyporta, and be something like:
Range = G48, Str = 4, AP = -, Special = Ordinance Blast, Rending, Inflicts 1 auto. glancing hit on vehicles, gets hot.
I'd like to have stormboyz scatter D3" (whole unit) and if you roll a hit you pick the direction but remove one casualty.
This sort of thing is, IMO, random and in character while still not completely off the wall. It's how I see 2ed orks porting into 4ed.

Zark the Damned
24-12-2005, 04:15
The (somewhat lame) excuse for the removing of all the cool tech for Orks I heard was this:

the Rogue Trader and 2nd Ed Orks represented Da Boyz on the fringe of Orky Society, who had the most contect with other races and as a result built all kinds of mad ass tech after being inspired by them (like the Tinboyz - Ork Robotic versions of Marines, Eldar and Squats :D).

the 3rd Ed Orks represent the more savage ones who haven't been exposed to other races, they come from the core Ork worlds and haven't started inventing the mad stuff yet.

Yeah, pretty lame excuse...

I agree with Grot, Orks need their crazy tech back. It needn't be massively complex with a zillion tables like back in RT days, but something more than '4 big guns and 3 bionik bitz'.

As far as the 'Anzion theory of Psychokinesis' (as in 'stuff works because the Orks believe it') goes, pretty much that only applies to the really freaky stuff that ALL the Orks believe, e.g. Red Trukks going faster, Gargants being able to walk, that sorta stuff. Not on a personal level, their basic tech like Shootas work just fine. Well, that's my take on it anyway.

Achilles
24-12-2005, 10:04
The Ork tech just looks looney to us Umies because we vieuw it from the 'recieving end' perspective. think of em like a n Ork... orkses think big is good... so their weaponry becomes big and slightly unreliable. And like the shokk attack gun... using runts as fodder is kewl... gives em a good kickin... Ork could have the Strangest weaponry, but still have em represented by normal 4th edition rules... give em a small, easy misfire chart (like get hot, for example. maybe add a 'lil'chart to it thats usable for all ork 'Mad-tek')like, 4-6 Fizzle/Jam 2-3 resolve hit on unit 1 resolve hit on unit and remove weapon.

but i do want a shout out to bring back the snotling swarms... I miss em :(
hehe lol

Grumblebelly
24-12-2005, 10:43
There are already alot of little wargear items in 40k which seem to be standardised across the board such as bionics, spiky bitz etc...

They need to build on these little bitz and piecez. Atm grots are interesting as you can have a grot orderly, ammo grot and the mechanics helper grot. They need to introduce alot more little bitz and piecez for orks (and other armies). In particular they should introduce lots of bionics. The only issue is workign out what each piece will do.

IncubiLord
25-12-2005, 05:48
Oh, why not?
I started a thread for converting 2ed Orks into 4ed rules.
Any interested parties may find it here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20015).

Inquizitor
03-01-2006, 04:41
I remember seeing pictures of the new "ORK KOMMANDO WITH BURNER" a while ago but I cant find them now. Does anyone know what happened to the pictures?? :confused:

Grotsnik
03-01-2006, 08:42
I remember seeing pictures of the new "ORK KOMMANDO WITH BURNER" a while ago but I cant find them now. Does anyone know what happened to the pictures?? :confused:

Wasn't a commando, was a burnaboy. :rolleyes:

TheOTHERmaninblack
03-01-2006, 18:13
According to GW, the new release is a Kommando w/burna.:rolleyes: :eyebrows:

howie
03-01-2006, 19:54
http://www.the-waaagh.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=15981

you mean this little fella lets be honuest it dont look much like a kommando, i think it would be a much welcommed new burna, as good as the old ones are he still looks better.


i to would much like too see the return of the old rules, i am a relative noob only been collecting for 6-5years always orks though:angel: dont kno much about the 2nd edition rules but from what i have been told they would be a great way for the orks to go. although i am one of these people that would like to see doctrines/traits added to the orks i personlly think it would be extremely fun:p although if they were anything like the beakie/ guard ones the names would have to be changed


well theres my pocket of what i think:rolleyes:

TheOTHERmaninblack
03-01-2006, 20:44
What's not Kommando about him? Really, what separates a kommando from a regular boy? The ability to sneak around, and a complete lack of any armor save. That burna boy isn't wearing any armor at all, which places him firmly within the realm of the kommando. Can't tell from the pic how well he sneaks, but I'm pretty sure that he'd be good at it. ;}

Toxxys
03-01-2006, 21:24
...i to would much like too see the return of the old rules... although i am one of these people that would like to see doctrines/traits added to the orks i personlly think it would be extremely fun:p although if they were anything like the beakie/ guard ones the names would have to be changed...

Yarr... I started as an ork player because they suit part of my personality (but not as well as the tau since I sold my speed freek army to my brother who does nothing but win with them).

You have to remember that everything in 2nd Ed was way over the top. All you had to do was look at rules for vortex grenades or the Grey Knight psychic powers to realize that (what was it- temporal distort or something like that made GKs skip the enemy's turn).

I think there are quite a few things about orks that are still very orky and zany, such as the big guns (which almost nobody unless on battlewagons), looted tanks (they break down), looted gunz... and Grotz (body shield= orky). Sure we don't have the shokk-attak gun and pulsa rokkit, but they just don't fit in that well anymore, especially since snotlings and squigs aren't prominent anymore.

I think it would be interesting to translate a little bit more orkiness to the list (for purposses of points drops hehe) such as something like: "when stormboyz deep strike, roll 3D6 for the scatter and pick the highest," or some Kustom Kombi Weapons (especially for deathskullz).

On the other hand, your point about the doctrines/traits for orks... Nah. The main list is like a multi-clan tribe army list (although some units should be a little more characterful), and the feral orks list in US White Dwarf #259 and the clans lists in US White Dwarf #289 were perfect.
Right now I think we have enough army lists to play some really nice armies:

Goffs- great HtH army, not very fast
Deathskullz- nice looty and shooty army
Bad Moons- nice shooty and yellow army
Blood Axes- nice covert style army
Snakebites- nice in-betweener of feral orks
Evil Sunz- nice in-betweener of speed freeks
Feral Orks- very interesting army to play
Speed Freeks- almost too orky to describe

Here's how it works; The imperium is always making new chapters (and a thousand+ already exist); Imperial guard regiments number in millions; chaos have rules for mark-heavy lists and mark-only legion lists as well as undivided variant lists.

Orks work like this: almost all orks fit into clans... the basic list sort of represents elements of all clans, so it's more like a big tribe of orks that are Waaagh!ing. The clan lists provide us what we need to play those variant armmies, feral orks bring their own flavor, and speed freeks are just great.

I think the only thing the orks are lacking is an actual Freebooter Pirate list... that would be orky.

Inquizitor
04-01-2006, 02:58
http://www.the-waaagh.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=15981

you mean this little fella lets be honuest it dont look much like a kommando, i think it would be a much welcommed new burna, as good as the old ones are he still looks better.

Thats the one, thanks Howie!

brotherscrim
04-01-2006, 18:09
The way the orks 'believe stuff works, so it does', is also really dumb. If an ork gun works because he believes it does, why does he believe it only hits on a 5 or 6? If my gun was magic, and powered by my brain, you better believe it would be BS 6, assault 10, S 10 AP 1 ordnance blast. Here's another one. The orks believe that their stuff works well, so why are mega armour nobs kill-able? Wouldn't the ork believe that his super-thick armour would protect him against everything?

....

While on that subject, why don't the orks get all sorts of force-fields anymore?

....

The orks have always been born innovators and inventors who know how to do this kind of stuff. Why did they all suddenly forget?



Naturally this is all subjective, but I think the reason why their whole "think = do" psychic-dealie doesn't result in unstoppable forces and immovable objects is because, well, orks are stupid.

Now wait - hear me out for a second.

I see the orks as a sort of idiot savant: They are self-destructively stupid, but they can do some things with a level of skill and precision far in excess of their mental faculties as a whole. So, while there will never be an ork with the ability to reason out the mechanics involved in inventing a firearm, their psychic potential allows them to see an enemy use one; say "Hey! Me want one of doze!;" craft a crude device that resembles it; and make it work in a similar fashion with the power of belief. It's not perfect or even all that good because the desires that enables it to work come from the crudest of understanding in what it does and what they want it to do.

Which brings me to your second point: The forcefields are largely gone from the game, which removes the opportunity for the orks to see, covet, and make them for themselves.

As to your last point I quoted, it is my assertion (which is no better than yours, of course) that the orks don't in fact know how to do much, they just can do it if they want to badly enough, and they don't invent as much as mimic what they see because of that.

Toxxys
04-01-2006, 19:17
Good points. Idiot Savant is definitely a good way to describe orks.

Another way of looking at is is that a shoota might be built to work, but the trigger is missing. And just because a gun is good doesn't mean that the guy shooting it will be any good at hitting with it. Orks like guns because they make loud noise and *can* kill stuff- so as long as the shoota/slugga is making noise when they want it to and occasionally hitting stuff, it's working! I don't think normal orks are creative enough to think of their shoota being any more powerful (nor do I believe their sub-psychic abilities to be powerful enough to change tangible objects in such a fundamental way).

The mega armor comment was sorta silly- Orks don't care about dying, that's not why they invent better armor- they make better armor so they can stick around longer and KILL MORE! If Mega armor is doing that good, why would the Nob or Warboss want more than that? Other than war and fighting, I don't think orks are a very "wanting" race.

IncubiLord
04-01-2006, 19:35
Going back to the 2ed codex, the Orks who make things are idiot savants. They have a genetic knowledge of how to do something that was imprinted by the mysterious "brain boyz."
I actually really liked this explanation, as it makes them capable without being smart enough to understand what they're doing. Some Orks just know how to build a gun, do field surgery, or raise squigs.

Toxxys
05-01-2006, 00:29
That's still the current fluff... except they don't make the direct reference to the Brain Boyz... although there is a slight mention of Brain Boys it only infers vague connections.

IncubiLord
05-01-2006, 01:01
The Brain Boyz part of this really matters to me.
If you tried to claim that Orks simply evolved into a creature with genetic memory of a specific field of science in the odd member of their population, I'd be very skeptical.
That couples with their method of reproduction to make it so I couldn't muster enough suspension of disbelief for the Orks without them being bio-engineered.

Hellebore
05-01-2006, 02:15
It has never been claimed that the orks evloved naturally, the current fluff says they were engineered by the old ones as a meatshield against the necrons.

hellebore

Toxxys
05-01-2006, 04:08
I'm saying it's just vague compared to how exact it was in 2nd ed. The barinboyz connection is still there, just not in exact terms.

And that Old Ones fluff... is that from the Necrons Codex? I haven't read the background in that codex (the only background I haven't read) and I've heard other such things coming from there.

The brainboys fluff is definitely much sillier and maybe better than Old Ones based fluff. Both are plausable though.

IncubiLord
05-01-2006, 04:41
I found a refernce to the Old Ones creating the "hardy, green-skinned Krork," who may be the brain boyz, but nothing to say the oldest, most powerful race (next to the C'tan) created a race of mindless green brutes.
Hey, as far as we know the Krork are another race like the K'nib, who only exist as a name that the Old Ones created.

Pixeleye
05-01-2006, 08:10
Seconded.

I'd like to see all boyz have the ability to upgrade to skarboyz but so you could have small elite ork warbands if you wanted, or hordes of chaff and a couple more orky vehicles might be nice so they don't have to rely on imperial stuff, but I think all the guys demanding warbosses with t5 or other similar demands are just pie in the sky spurred on by Eldar dreamers and their owerblown wishlists.

Orks work fine at the moment, just like space marines and tyranids worked fine before their 4th edition books. The next Ork codex will only need tweaks, it's the model range that needs work.

Well look no further then this place ---> Goff clan rules (http://uk.games-workshop.com/orks/goffs%2Drules/1/)

Do not forget the different types of clans when discussing orks, they are made to make up for some of the things in the Codex.

In this case the Goffs take Scarboys as troops....

Spleendokta
05-01-2006, 08:57
Latest news in orks? There is no news. There is no new codex for a VERY long time. Theres new commando's, but who the hell uses commando's in a tournie?

notdakuningist
05-01-2006, 09:34
Does everybody have to play in tournaments?

DantesInferno
05-01-2006, 13:13
I found a refernce to the Old Ones creating the "hardy, green-skinned Krork," who may be the brain boyz, but nothing to say the oldest, most powerful race (next to the C'tan) created a race of mindless green brutes.
Hey, as far as we know the Krork are another race like the K'nib, who only exist as a name that the Old Ones created.

There is this quote from the Deceiver which would give weight to the Krork -> Ork evolution


"What were you seeking?" whispered Lakius. The thing's ferocious smile was spread almost ear to ear.

"Knowledge, mostly. I wanted to know how the galaxy had fared, who was left after the plague. You can't imagine my surprise on finding your kind and the Krork scattered everywhere. I've seen you humans trying to forge an empire in the name of a corpse."

Given that humans and Orks are the most common sentient lifeforms in the galaxy, it seems fairly clear that the Deceiver sees the Orks as the same as the Krork which existed in the War in Heaven. Beyond that, there's the reference in the Nightbringer's background to the Krork alone being spared the racial fear of death engendered by the Nightbringer. Similar to the Orks' current fear of death.

Achilles
05-01-2006, 16:06
There is this quote from the Deceiver which would give weight to the Krork -> Ork evolution



Given that humans and Orks are the most common sentient lifeforms in the galaxy, it seems fairly clear that the Deceiver sees the Orks as the same as the Krork which existed in the War in Heaven. Beyond that, there's the reference in the Nightbringer's background to the Krork alone being spared the racial fear of death engendered by the Nightbringer. Similar to the Orks' current fear of death.

i agree... maybe ctan and the old ones should be mentioned more in the upcoming ork codex... and the eldar one for that matter. that could be the reason for the delay in both codexes. the necron codex 'forces' GW to review the entire fluff for both races thoroughly. it would be a pleasant surprise if they did do that right for a change.
:p

Black-Tooth
05-01-2006, 17:01
I kind of wanted to stay away from this thread, even though I've been playing Orks since before the current Codex. I persoanlly think Orks are underpowered. Their codex was god at the time of printing, but look the codexs that have had a re-do since then have been far superier. We need models for each of the unit choices too.
Haha, someone said the 'Uge Choppa was good! What's that all about? It takes the negatives from both the choppa and the power claw, and hardly has any positives.
I would definitly like to take my Orks to a tournement, but as the codex stands now, you would just get laughed out of the room.

If this romour is correct about the new codex not coming out until 2007 I'll be very anoyed, and probably leave my Orks, and probably the game behind. They've had plenty of time to do something with the Orks, but they haven't.
Trying to keep us quiet with Kommando models isn't going to work, considering they are probably the worst unit in the codex anyway...

GW are just messing about with this game too much and not fixing the problems that need adressing first, in my opinion anyway.

SmashemTaBitsa
05-01-2006, 17:18
They seem to be forgetting one major part of the ork army: the vehicles. We're still using 2nd ed and Gorka Morka vehicles, and the most important ones don't even exist, except the forgeworld battlewagon. I would be happy if they just finished last re-do and forgot about this whole new one that will inevitably ruin the army anyway.