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View Full Version : High Elf Players, a question for you.



Mabbz101
14-04-2009, 13:09
Ive come across of lot of flack for using the old stardragon in games of 2000 point games.

I have several lists ready made for 2000 pts and only one list contains the stardragon. Its not my favourite list as is normally causes arguments as to the legality of the dragon. Normally my opponenent whinges and doesn't play to his fullest.

So my question is. What do all you high elf generals field in 2000 and 2500 point games? What units do you favour and what tactics do you employ?

Monsterzonk
14-04-2009, 13:21
I'm currently working on a relatively balanced list, which will contain roughly this:

Archmage
Noble BSB
Noble (all on foot)

2x 17 Sea Guard (6x3, one with BSB, one with mage)

2x 5 Ellyrian Reavers
1x 19 Swordmasters (with Noble)
1x 5 Shadow Warriors

2x Repeater Bolt Throwers

No Dragon, no Dragon Princes, no Chariots. It's probably not the most competitive army, but it's themed to a swampy environment, so no heavy cavalry. Check my sig if you want to know more...

Cheers,
Monsterzonk :skull:

ZoomDog
14-04-2009, 14:25
Its not my favourite list as is normally causes arguments as to the legality of the dragon.

Where's the legality question against a StarDragon?

Emeraldw
14-04-2009, 15:45
Ive come across of lot of flack for using the old stardragon in games of 2000 point games.

I have several lists ready made for 2000 pts and only one list contains the stardragon. Its not my favourite list as is normally causes arguments as to the legality of the dragon. Normally my opponenent whinges and doesn't play to his fullest.

So my question is. What do all you high elf generals field in 2000 and 2500 point games? What units do you favour and what tactics do you employ?

Some armies have a great deal of difficulty facing a dragon, particularly one as nasty as a star dragon at 2k. Thats really the crux of it. I have a friend that uses one often, but I had a mage lord with my wood elves and beast cowered him all game (:D)

There are things they can do, but in general its probably a little much. Though if your playing against someone who uses a greater deamon or a someone who uses other large monsters, feel free to smash them with it.

sroblin
14-04-2009, 17:46
Star Dragon lists are considered to be One of the Two True Ways to Play High Elves in tournaments by many. (The other being Teclis based lists). It is probably true (I'm not a tournament player so I can't say so from experience), but even so this belief, anyway, has the force of dogma behind it by now. However, I do not think Star Dragon lists make for much fun in 2000 points games, because the Lord + Dragon + Items costs nearly 1/3 of the points in the army, and a big part of the game is reduced to whether they can take care of the dragon or not.

I myself prefer to field 'balanced lists' with a bit of everything, as much because I like a broad variety of the units as for any other reason, and in theory I like to think the game will reward you for taking advantage of having diverse capabilities for diverse situations and applying combined arms between infantry-cavalry-artillery.

For example, I usually deploy any infantry front with cavalry and chariots on the flanks, archers and bolt-throwers on the hills and flanks.
Archers & Boltthrower- take out fast cavalry, flyers, scouts, lone characters, chip away at elite infantry or cavalry.
Spearmen- take out weak enemy infantry units, possibly delay more powerful enemy units
Swordmasters- tasked with destroying elite enemy units
White Lions-tasked with pinning down elite enemy units, possible for flank charges
Chariot-deliver supporting charges for White Lions or Spearmen mostly
Dragon Princes-fast attack force to roll up a flank, or threaten an avenue of the opposing players advance
Shadow Warriors-march block, contribute to the archery fire, harass warmachines, shooters, lone characters
2 Level 2 Mages-to intervene against key units or support key combats. Obviously, help with dispelling enemy magic.
Noble-kitted up defensively to challenge enemy characters and prevent them from hurting units, perhaps with BSB. Can also help weaker units rack up a few points of CR with kills if unnopposed by characters.

All obvious stuff, but the idea is to use the support units to shape and curtail your opponents more flexible units and tactics, and smash the enemy force against the infantry, combined with chariot or cavalry back up on the flanks, after shooting and magic have taken their toll of the opponent's force.

W0lf
14-04-2009, 18:57
IMO large flying terror causers like Blood thirsters/star dragons make for extremely dull 2K games.

Whitesox
14-04-2009, 20:03
i dont mind star dragons or thirsters in 2k list while playing with my vamps... you can easily tar pit them due to the likeliehood your opponent will not have much magic defense

Mabbz101
14-04-2009, 20:40
I have a 2500 pt list with a star dragon but trarly use it. normally my games are of 4000+ pts. My 5000 point list includes a prince on star dragon and an archmage on a moon dragon and a Dragon mage. they normall fly around together and charge the big stuff. all my gaming group has dragons in their large armys. i also have a cool 3500 Tyrion list!

Bac5665
14-04-2009, 20:44
IMO large flying terror causers like Blood thirsters/star dragons make for extremely dull 2K games.

W0lf is exactly right. In my experience Dragons and Bloodthirsters result in at most one player having fun. The game turns into pin the cannonball on the dragon, and that's just a dice off.

Also, not all armies have something to do to the dragon in the first place, so some games are over before they begin.

Now, the Dragon Mage, MAY be an exception to this because its so much weaker than everything else. But I've still not been able to decide which side of the fence the Dragon Mage falls on.

WhiteLion
14-04-2009, 21:15
Star Dragons can be boring as mentioned because most army lists will have few ways of dealing with one. It creates a rock, paper, scissors feel to the game and everything becomes focused on what that single model is doing.

That said, it is also one of the few elements in a high elf list that can reliably deal with some of the more disgusting lists out there, which is why it tends to make tournament and other "competitive" type lists. It isn't necessary, but it is one of the most effective and reliable ways to spend points in a high elf list.

I tend to use an archmage, lvl 2, and a bsb. 2 RBTs, two eagles, a unit of dragon princes. 2 other elite infantry units (usually PG for static res and swordmasters), a white lion chariot or two, and archers or lsg for core. I vary my specials quite a bit, as I enjoy trying different combinations and options in the high elf list and everything plays a different role.

sroblin
15-04-2009, 02:57
Hmmm, I haven't played a really massive points game with my High Elves, but I bet the dragons would be much more fun at that point level. More appropriate scope for the unit's power, and points enough left for a real army as well.

garythewargamer
15-04-2009, 04:33
Star Dragons are in the army book just like all the other monsters.

There are ways to deal with anything sometimes it works and sometime it does not work.

Back to your question.

I run Korhil in a lion chariot and another chariot. Two second level mages and the banner of sorcery. 10 archers and 23 spearman. Two units of 7 sword masters. A big unit of white lions with the captain of the PG in them. Some people do not like to play against special characters.

Jericho
15-04-2009, 04:55
Playing against ONE special character can be annoying. Taking two, including a mix'n'match style with Caradryan leading White Lions is pretty lame IMO.

smarr10
15-04-2009, 06:34
My Tomb Kings regularly play against a High Elf Star Dragon and so far it has been 5-0 to the Elves. Each time I lose I go back to the drawing board and try to come up with some tactics and/or unit combinations that may prove effective. This has not proved to be either boring or lame. Quite the opposite, in fact. Each time I get a little bit closer by discovering a new way to use the units I have more efficiently.

I find complaints about Star Dragons to be a little pointless. They ARE in the book and they cost a lot. In fact my HE opponent complains about his St3 To3 Lords and the fact that TK Priests can't miscast so I know that everyone can find the advantages and disadvantages in any army.

A game I lose is not automatically boring or lame. It can be challenging (an Everest that will be conquered one day), exciting (I was THAT close, next time the Dice Gods will favour me!), or a learning experience (every loss I had against those Elves sharpened my game so that when my TK met some Warriors of Chaos they ended up victorious).

All the fun to be had is in the playing, not in the result. Why else would anyone ever choose Orcs&Goblins?

WhiteLion
15-04-2009, 11:48
Playing against ONE special character can be annoying. Taking two, including a mix'n'match style with Caradryan leading White Lions is pretty lame IMO.

I don't use special characters as I prefer to customize mine, and I tend to like to only play with them if discussed beforehand (except in tournaments, where I would expect to see some if legal).

That said, a list with those two characters is not even close to being as awful as some lists people can build without special characters in some armies. They just aren't that bad. If they were, you'd see them in a lot more tournament lists out there. On top of that, GW did a horrible job of making these two characters actually useful in the units they are supposed to be leading. They are far more effective when leading units that aren't "their own." In a way, you are actually penalizing yoruself for putting Korhil in the White Lions and Caradryan in PG. It's poor design.

enyoss
15-04-2009, 12:48
Although I have a couple of dragon models, I only wheel them out for large point games (>5000) as, in my experience, their inclusion often leads to a dull game for my opponent.

My favourite 2000-2250 list:

Prince, White Sword, Gauntlets, Talisman of Loec
Lvl 2 Mage, Power Stone, Dispel Scroll, Silver Wand
25 Spearmen

Lvl 2 Mage, Ring of Fury
15 Sea Guard

BSB, Armour of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix
14 White Lions, Lion Standard

8 Swordmasters

6 Dragon Princes, Banner of Ellyrion

5 Reaver Knights

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers

... with a few more little magic items here and there (e.g. Warbanner). I usually take Light and High... there's nothing like a timely `powerstoned' Cleansing Flare from the wizard who's right in the thick of it :D. It always takes my opponent by surprise!

static grass
15-04-2009, 12:58
They are far more effective when leading units that aren't "their own." In a way, you are actually penalizing yoruself for putting Korhil in the White Lions and Caradryan in PG. It's poor design.

I agree with this sentiment. It doesn't make sense, I think something was rushed here in the army book or there was a cut and paste error at the very end.

I suggest that people use Caradryan's rules with the Korhil model and vice versa. :D If that fails to confuse your opponent you will probably loose anyway :D

Desert Rain
15-04-2009, 16:06
So my question is. What do all you high elf generals field in 2000 and 2500 point games? What units do you favour and what tactics do you employ?
Using the models I have available I use this list:

Archmage: Level 4, Silver Wand, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Fury

Mage: Level 2, Seerstaff, Dispel Scroll

Noble: Armour of Caledor, Great Weapon

20 Spearmen: Full Command

19 Spearmen: Full Command

18 Swordmasters: Full Command, Banner of Sorcery

5 Dragon Princes: Musician

5 Dragon Princes

Tiranoc Chariot

2 Bolt Throwers

Thats about 2000 pts, which can be changed to include 2 units of Silver Helms and a unit of archers instead of the dragon princes and a swordmaster.

I'll just have to finish a 2nd chariot and get myself a couple of eagles so that I can bring the army to 2500 points.

Havock
15-04-2009, 17:28
W0lf is exactly right. In my experience Dragons and Bloodthirsters result in at most one player having fun. The game turns into pin the cannonball on the dragon, and that's just a dice off.

Also, not all armies have something to do to the dragon in the first place, so some games are over before they begin.

Now, the Dragon Mage, MAY be an exception to this because its so much weaker than everything else. But I've still not been able to decide which side of the fence the Dragon Mage falls on.

The wussy dragon is just a glorified griffon with a super soaker on it's head.

Cats Laughing
15-04-2009, 23:12
Now, the Dragon Mage, MAY be an exception to this because its so much weaker than everything else. But I've still not been able to decide which side of the fence the Dragon Mage falls on.

The Dragon Mage is usually buried six feet under the fence, as T3, with 2 Wounds and no possible defenses better than a 5+ ward is nothing more than VP waiting to happen. I've yet to see one last an entire game or do anything near its points cost.

The Dragon on the otherhand can be a danger to many armies, if it doesn't get hosed on the monster reaction table...

Firestorm Falcon
15-04-2009, 23:45
The wussy dragon is just a glorified griffon with a super soaker on it's head.

Classic Quote, I feel you just earned a place in my sig.

Anyway, I feel dragons have their place but only at around 2250 ish, before that they can be a bit disruptive to the game. Still I have no problem playing against one and indeed have used one myself at 2k.

My currant build however is quite light on characters to try to squeeze in some more elves.

Archmage dispel scroll x2, ring of fury staff of solidity
Noble great weapon, BSB guardian phoenix, armour of caeldor
Spearelves (19) full command, war banner
Archers(10) musician
Swordmasters (14) full command, talisman of loec
Dragon Princes (6) banner, musician, banner of ellyrion
Phoenix Guard (20) full command, banner of sorcery
Great Eagle (2)
Bolt Thrower(2)

Three solid infantry units, a cav hammer, some marchblocking + redirect as well as an ok shooting base. All in all I think its a decent balanced list.

@Desert rain: I like that list, I'd find the points to make that noble a bsb + give the spears the warbanner, +6 or +7 static combat res is brutal on a spearelf unit.

Death Disco
16-04-2009, 02:31
I, personally, am just not a fan of "all eggs in one basket" lists, which a 2 000 point list with a Star Dragon is. However...I just don't see how one is actually that good. The character riding it is grossly overpriced (I mean, seriously, 150 point for an Elf when and Oldblood is 145?) and has frankly crap options for weaponry. You can't really equip him to do much save not die. While the odds someone will actually manage to kill the Star Dragon in a 2000 point game are pretty low, I'd say the odds it will kill its points against a decent player are no better. With such a small army, you'll be at a tactical disadvantage, and I'd worry about the Dragon getting tarpitted/redirected/ otherwise having its time wasted.

WhiteLion
16-04-2009, 03:23
I, personally, am just not a fan of "all eggs in one basket" lists, which a 2 000 point list with a Star Dragon is. However...I just don't see how one is actually that good. The character riding it is grossly overpriced (I mean, seriously, 150 point for an Elf when and Oldblood is 145?) and has frankly crap options for weaponry. You can't really equip him to do much save not die. While the odds someone will actually manage to kill the Star Dragon in a 2000 point game are pretty low, I'd say the odds it will kill its points against a decent player are no better. With such a small army, you'll be at a tactical disadvantage, and I'd worry about the Dragon getting tarpitted/redirected/ otherwise having its time wasted.

It's a large flyer so it only charges really what it wants. With 6 WS7 attacks at S7, it by itself kills a lot of stuff. The rider on top is usually STR 5, so that's a lot of high WS attacks and it takes down plenty. The only time it doesn't is when there is an option to stop it with heavy cannon fire or something that can actually hurt it.

Desert Rain
16-04-2009, 13:29
@Desert rain: I like that list, I'd find the points to make that noble a bsb + give the spears the warbanner, +6 or +7 static combat res is brutal on a spearelf unit.
That's part of what's going to happen when I get to 2500 points ;p

SilentStalker
16-04-2009, 13:56
I disagree with the lack of armor comment. When I do run my star dragon (which is not very often anymore), I give the prince the vambraces, armor of caledor, lance, amulet of light. This give him 4 WS7 S6 attacks on the charge from the prince, and 6 WS7 S7 attacks from the dragon. The prince has a 2+ re roll armor save and a 4+ ward save. Pretty good defense if you ask me. He also gives himself and the dragon magical attacks.

Back to the point, just played a couple games at 1999 points, and was very fun! Using the under 2000 chart removes many of the nasties, and for most armies (high elves excluded) puts emphasis on core. I found that this brings out more balanced armies than things like greater daemons, dragons, and the like

Death Disco
16-04-2009, 17:09
It's a large flyer so it only charges really what it wants. With 6 WS7 attacks at S7, it by itself kills a lot of stuff. The rider on top is usually STR 5, so that's a lot of high WS attacks and it takes down plenty. The only time it doesn't is when there is an option to stop it with heavy cannon fire or something that can actually hurt it.

I'm not denying it will kill a lot. I'm saying it has to kill better than a lot-it's 620 points! By no means am I saying the Star Dragon is bad...just that it is not enough to stop a good player from beating a bad one on its own.

Mabbz101
16-04-2009, 17:37
Most of what i see here reghrding the dragon is complaining for the sake of complaining. il be honest no1 likes to face a dragon but the fact that it is in the book and availible means that complaining abbout it is just gunna make your opponent field it anyway because you will be so concerned with attacking the dragon that you dont notice the DP and SM cutting up your other troops.

If i know my opponenet is going to complain about me haveing 2 dragons availible at 2500 points i will field them because it throws him of his game plan. I play dark elf armies that field dragons and i concentrate on the Elven units and magic the dragon to death.