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nix
14-04-2009, 20:50
I am curious on an exploitative/cheese list as I have torn through the WoTR book. Please help me tear apart this list and see the weakness:

2000 point Misty Mountain List

Druzhag the beast caller
Balrog
Dragon of Ancient Times (caster)
Moria Goblin Archers (3 companies)
+ Shaman
Moria Goblin Archers (3 companies)
+ Shaman
Giant Spider Brood (3 companies)
Cloud of Bats (3 companies)
Cloud of Bats (3 companies)
Warg pack (3 companies)
+ Warg Chieftain
Warg pack (3 companies)
Warg pack (3 companies)
Warg pack (3 companies)


Overall the list has:

6 characters with might
5 casters (2 are mastery 3)
3 formations of flying monsters
1 Monster formation
5 Calvary formation
2 formations of archers (to stay in the rear and hide Durzhag)
2 monsters that are extremely hard to kill on a 15+


Cheese of the worst kind, I know. What are the counters to this? Or, where does this fall apart and is it not as bad as it first appears? If I understand how the rules for might work, then the Balrog and Dragon call Heroic Duels vs any of the other heroes. Vs. Aragorn, a Balrog calling a heroic duel would roll:

Heroic Duel: D6
Difference in fight: 3 (Balrog 10 to Aragorn 7)
Called the Duel: 1 dice
Total: Aragorn starts 4 down, and this could be worse with a bad roll.


Even with Aragorns R:3, this looks bad. Its better vs the DoAT (F:8), but still nasty starting down by 2.

I am hoping that those who have begun playing WoTR games can help me see why this is not as broken as it appears.

Nu Fenix
14-04-2009, 21:23
If you want to make it worse, instead of buying Shamans as upgrades, why not use allied Epic Heroes who are Mastery 2 casters that are also 100 points? You haven't taken allies yet, so still have the points available, and there are three spellcasters you can buy instead - Kardush, Mouth of Sauron, Queen Beruthiel.

Also, there any way you can thin down the smaller things to fit in a Stone Giant? If you are taking the biggest monsters available, you might as well take the third monster in your army list that has Extreme Hard to Kill.

Personally, I'm trying to figure out a reasonable way to deal with either the Balrog or Dragon, and having both on the table would just make me want to weep and pack my stuff up, as I know I wouldn't enjoy the game.

dtjunkie19
15-04-2009, 00:44
Honestly dealing with them doesn't have to be that hard. Try casting multiple Strength from Corruption spells on a hard unit (like easterlings, uruk's, morrannon orcs, etc.) and smashing into the monster. Your hitting at anywhere from strength 7/8 to 10. And unless I've missed it, no where does it say you cannot stack multiple of the same spells on one unit.

Sarah S
15-04-2009, 00:57
A timely heroic duel, might powered artillery fire, or magic or certain fortunes and fates can make short work of monsters like Dragons and Balrogs.

pyremius
15-04-2009, 04:14
If I get to run an evil list against it, I'd gang up a few Ringwraiths nearby and hit the monster with Strength from Corruption - it doesn't have to target your own unit. Either you burn your Might blocking the spells, or I start racking up rolls on the Extremely Hard to Kill table (and the Balrog doesn't even gain anything as his Strength is already maxed out). Likewise, if Khamul is one of those Ringwraiths he can use Essence Leach to redirect damage onto nearby monsters to similar effect.

Since I've not yet looked too closely into the forces of Good, I can't help you there.

Jorgen_CAB
15-04-2009, 06:17
There are many Good heroes with Epic Strike ability. That could be used to do some damage in Duels. Boromir could eat might powered monsters for breakfast since every hit causes a casualty and he also get to roll two dices and choose the best one in a duel.

Lots and Lots of strong infantry units will be able to overwhelm all those small cavalry units that has no heroes, which means that you can't call heroic charges, heroic fights etc... throw in pike armed infantry and archers as well and those formations will die pretty fast.

I really don't see such a big problem with fighting them with just a standard Gondor army with some timely allies thrown in, such as Gandalf and maybe an elf hero and unit or so.

Gaargod
16-04-2009, 11:19
Damm, i was gonna say use the 100pts casters instead of shamans, but was beaten to it.

Anyways, have you considered (this may seem harsh now) that both dragons and balrogs are only rare formations. Therefore, you can have multiple dragons?

An army may be able to deal with one extremely hard to kill monster, maybe even 2. But 3 or even 4?

2 Dragon casters, balrog, stone giant. Some goblin archers to hide a couple of casters, off you go :D

Yorky
17-04-2009, 20:59
why not just field 2 Balrogs..............

after all it is a rare formation, not legendary, thereby you can field as many as you can fit in!!! :evilgrin:

perfectly legit ;)

fubukii
17-04-2009, 22:59
id run 2 dragons over 2 balrogs, flying monster rule and the breathe attack make it much better. Also higher defense. alot of your companies are to small and easier to scare off.

Id also suggest some gundabad black shields.

Sarah S
18-04-2009, 01:36
fubukii, you really love those Blackshields!

What do people think about models for them though? Is it appropriate to use the regular plastic models with hand weapons and shields, or must one use the metal goblins?
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat190037&prodId=prod1080177

Buying 72 of those guys would not be cheap.

fubukii
18-04-2009, 05:12
true i do like them alot, but why not include them! str4 d6 for 20 pts i cant see a reason to not include them in your army.

my moria list is trying out to formations of 9.

Sarah S
18-04-2009, 05:13
You never responded to this part of my post though, which is what I was most interested in:

What do people think about models for them though? Is it appropriate to use the regular plastic models with hand weapons and shields, or must one use the metal goblins?
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/ca...Id=prod1080177

After, all the regular Goblins are equipped with armour and the Gundabad's are equipped with heavy armour.

fubukii
18-04-2009, 05:59
true i use the armored goblins and a mix of the blistered ones for my formations.

Faeslayer
18-04-2009, 06:06
With the helmets and sheilds, I think the plastic goblins would work well as Gundabads. It's what I would do (with a few of the nice metal armored goblins mixed in).

Who would argue with that? The line between regular armor and heavy armor is fuzzy anyway.