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Puffin Magician
17-12-2005, 18:20
For quite a few players, the lure of a [or in my case, several] Mid-Heresy Marine force is very strong indeed. Legions of warriors in Maxiumus Armour running around killing each other with the aid of MkII Dreadnoughts and MkI Land Raiders is something that I'd like to see on the tabletop. Historical refights, possible what-if scenarios, modelling possibilities... you don't even need a reason really, they just look badass.

There are lots of threads and websites floating around the Great Web but none are very consice and some are downright unhelpful. The point of this thread is to compile info relating to modelling, painting, and using a Mid-Heresy Legion in games of 40k.

Some basic Pre-H stuff should be included just for completion's sake:

No Land Raider variants, no Assault Cannons, no Predator Annihilators. Vindicators were available pre-Heresy but weren't very popular or were too complex to be easily mass-produced. IA2 doesn't say when the Whirlwind entered service [which is extremely annoying], I want to say they were around but I can't be sure.

Older armour variants; mostly MkIII, IV and V, perhaps rare MkVI for late-Heresy marines or characters.

I know most of the Legion colour schemes, but can't seem to find info about the rest. I'll throw in my suggested Traits and army 'theme' in this list as well since this post is huge as it is.

Sons of Horus - Grey?, Codex organization
Iron Warriors - Metallic, hazard stripes, Honour your Wargear, No Mercy, Eye to Eye
Emperor's Children - Purple, Gold trim, Purity above All, Uphold the Honour, Aspire to Glory, Have Pride in your Colours
Word Bearers - Black?, Chaplains? Codex organization?
Night Lords - Blue?, See but don't be Seen, Blessed be the Warriors, Flesh over Steel, terror tactics
Alpha Legion - A "Purpley Blue"?, coordinated strikes, squad successes considered greater to individual heroism
Thousand Sons - Red, White trim, Gold here & there, Librarians
Death Guard - White, Green shoulderpads & backpacks, Trust your Battle Brothers, Cleanse & Purify, Flesh over Steel, Die Standing
World Eaters - White, Blue backpack, shoulderpads, belt, No Mercy, Take the fight to Them, Flesh over Steel
Dark Angels - Black, Iron/Raven/Deathwings, fancy kit [for Legion #1]
Ultramarines - Blue, as now?, Codex organization
Blood Angels - Red, as now?, Traits = ??
Space Wolves - Space Puppy Grey, as now?, Traits = ??
Salamanders - Green, Black, as now?, Codex traits
Raven Guard - Black, Codex traits
Imperial Fists - Yeller, as now?, Codex traits
Iron Hands - Black, Silver, as now?, Codex traits
White Scars - White, Red, Codex traits

Everyone knows how the Chapters/Legions work now, but did they act like that 10 millennia ago? Which Legion[s] used more Dreadnoughts than others? Who preferred Rhinos while others prefered Land Raiders, etc?

It would be a bit silly to consider these armies without thinking about the Primarchs; I won't be making up bombastic statlines for them, simple SM Masters will suffice. But what about their wargear? Horus had his Talon, Robute had his Gauntlets, Vulkan had some crazy hammers, but what about the rest? I was considering using the Chaos list and give Primarchs some "far above the average Marine" kit with all the upgrades and whatnot they have access to. I don't deem it too appropriate for the recently-turned Legions, but if you think this idea has merit than please reply and elaborate on it.

Don't reply to this thread telling me to buy Index Astartes books, Horus Heresy compilations, or any of that crap since if I had that information or planned on acquiring it, I wouldn't need this thread. Distributing free information is what the internet is for.

So heed this call, Pre-Heresy players, would-be players, and fluff nuts! Help working out the fiddly bits would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

evil
17-12-2005, 18:48
I think the chaos list would be better for representing pre heresy marines, of course you have to omit the obvious things (deamons, raptors, possessed and deamon gifts on sarges). You would have to use pieces of the normal (as normal as a marine is) space marine list, like assault marines.
good luck, what legion were you planning on making?

Emperor's Light
17-12-2005, 18:58
Without standardization, I think each legion potentially can use different lists.

I would use the current codex SM for Ultramarines. I imagine they changed the least from pre-codex to post-codex.

Imperial Fists can use the Black Templar list. Given that the Templars were basically a group of Imperial Fists who refused to adopt to the new organization and are generally very conservative and hidebound, I would guess the modern BT list reflects pre-codex Imperial Fists pretty well.

Don't forget to include some Space Marine jetbikes (with shuriken catapults) ;)

Inquisitor_Pink
17-12-2005, 19:03
Me and a friend were discussing the primarchs a while back thinking of what to use to make them This was what we decided.

Perpetuo used a hammer,as did Vulkan
Russ used a rune sword,Fulgrim used 6 rapiers after his accension,Konrad Kurse used to use his hands - he had talon type things i think,Sanguinus uses the blood blade, Angron used a rune sword too, Mortorian used a scythe,Magnus was a sorcerer so i assume he'd have some sort of staff, Guilleman sword and shield.


This may not be 100% Or even 50% :D But my buddy knows his stuff generally and I would say it's pretty acurate.
Feel free to correct where applicable.

damz451
17-12-2005, 19:42
to build a pre herasy or mid herasy army pretty much everything from rogue trader would suit it.

Olith
17-12-2005, 19:45
Assault cannons exited, the reason chaos don't have them is maintenance.

There is some very good quality discussion on and information for 40k scale heresy on Bolter and Chainsword (which I assume is still down as I write this).

Olith
17-12-2005, 19:46
to build a pre herasy or mid herasy army pretty much everything from rogue trader would suit it.

Rogue trader is still set in the 41st millenium though and much of it fits into neither the current 40k or heresy fluff.

Yodhrin
17-12-2005, 21:18
Assault cannons exited, the reason chaos don't have them is maintenance.

There is some very good quality discussion on and information for 40k scale heresy on Bolter and Chainsword (which I assume is still down as I write this).

Assault Cannons were designed post-heresy based on Autocannon technology, which is why modern Marines use Assault Cannons while modern Chaos Marines remain using Autocannons.

Frodo34x
17-12-2005, 21:24
AFAIK, Space Wolves fight identically nowadays as they did M31.

Puffin Magician
17-12-2005, 21:32
I think each Legion potentially can use different lists.They could, but I'd rather not use a seperate list with a heap of rules to represent what should be relatively similar armies. The Trait system [or Chaos vet skills, should I use that list] are just fine for this IMO.

Using the basic Codex for Ultras is a given, I need to know about the Loyalist Legions; for example the Blood Angels didn't have the Black Rage, but they were certainly "choppy". But, how choppy exactly?

Imperial Fists can use the Black Templar list.I'll pass on that one; one the Fists aren't that assault-oriented and two I think the BT organization isn't sensible. Mixed squads? no Devastators? no Librarians? No thanks!

Space Marine jetbikesBut of course. :)

I think the chaos list would be better...The only reason I mentioned the Chaos list is to give some of the Primarchs a bit of "Chaosity" to represent them late in the Heresy. I think it's easier to use the Loyalist list and keep the new technology out than it is to try and de-Chaos the Traitor list.

As for which Legion, well I wouldn't mind doing them all in time... I'd like to start with Thousand Sons [because they're so different] or Dark Angels [for the Ironwing] first.

Frodo34x
17-12-2005, 21:39
So, hwo do you intend to build these marines? After all, we all know PufMag never buys anything, but makes his own.

sulla
17-12-2005, 22:26
But what about the rest of the galaxy? We know marines looked a little different but basically played the same (no scouts, battlefield psychers etc but basically the same), but how did orks or eldar or non-imperial humans play? That's where the real fun would come... otherwise it's just like a video game where you unlock new costumes and maybe a gun or two after completion but the game remains the same...

Olith
17-12-2005, 22:35
Assault Cannons were designed post-heresy based on Autocannon technology, which is why modern Marines use Assault Cannons while modern Chaos Marines remain using Autocannons.

I guess it depends on what you consider to be canon as assault cannons are featured in the heresy card game art.

Icarus
17-12-2005, 22:37
This (http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/spacemarines/painting/pre_heresy/2.htm) is a nice little article with examples of pre-heresy colour schemes on them.

bigred
17-12-2005, 22:51
ok i'm game...

DEATH GUARD (possible original legion name pre-Mortarion: Dusk Raiders)

The basics fluff goals (taken from pouring over every bit of fluff i've found going back to the early 90s stuffs) goes like this:

Death Guard Legion (pre-heresy, loyalists)

-Known for their "toughness" and endurance: often won victories through sheer perseverence.

-Known for their tactical flexibility (no dedicated tactical or assault squads, each individual marine was expected to perform both duties)

-little reliance on exotic and or heavy equipment (tanks): the legion was focussed upon infantry

-legion partially compensated for infantry focus by making the most use of Terminator armor which was used in larger numbers and mixed more freely within the legion than in any other legion.

-preferred weapons (from artwork: multi-melta/plasma rifle/plasma cannon/bolter family

-distrust of psychics

-common use of the number 7 (hint,hint)

----------------------------
Doctrines to represent Mortarion's Legion:
-Trust in you Battle-Brothers (true-grit,counterattack)
-Cleanse and Purify (2x special weapons in tac squads instead of heavy weapons)
-Flesh over Steel (very few heavy tanks)
-Have Faith in Suspicion (no librarians)
----------------------------

Basic suggestions:

Tac Squads with lots of bolters, or double plasma.
Dev Squads with quad Multi-Meltas, or quad Plasma Cannons
Terminator squads with anything except assault cannons.
Marine Commanders only (no chaplains or librarians used by the legion) which will enhance resiliance of the army.

For tanks I would tried to stick with only those that directly can support infantry (land raiders/rhino).

Small recon stuff (land speeders) are good as are dreadnoughts (which are effectively infantry).

Bikes and Assault squads I would recommend as a 0-1 choice (using the honor rule of course)

----------------------------

General Heresy stuff:

Agreed with puffin, only Rhino, and basic Land Raider (no varients).
Whirlwinds, Vindicators, Bikes, Land Speeders, Predator (except the all las-cannon one) WERE available, as support vehicles.

NO Razorbacks (later development)
NO Assualt Cannons (if you're must, use the AC models and use the Reaper autocannon rules from the chaos dex).
Assualt Squads (w/ jump packs) were rare but available.

Chaplains and Librarians were very new inventions and rare (many legions did not use one or both), so lots of Marine Commanders all around.
-----------------------------

Puffin Magician
17-12-2005, 23:24
Thanks for posting that, bigred. I've seen that in several other threads which is what perpetuated this idea.

I guess it depends on what you consider to be canon.The HHCCG blatantly ignores the most holy and ancient official fluff so I take what I see on the cards with a grain of salt. So no Assault Cannons.

This is a nice little article
That's a fairly obvious start but it's not really helpful. Do Alpha Legionnaires have a green stripe on their helmet? Do Word Bearers have black armour and orange weapons?

Chaplains and Librarians were very new inventions and rare.
That's why only the Word Bearers and Thousand Sons will get them, respectively.

Inquisitor Pink: Missed you the first time around, had a lot of replying to do...
It makes sense for Perturabo to have a hammer weapon, but I've seen Vulkan referenced to have hammers... I'm going to need to check into Kurze's hands, and the rest seem likely. Probably a halberd for the Red Cyclops.

I'm going to summarize my basic initial questions;

• What was the basic organizational structure of each Legion leading up to the Heresy?
- I don't know other than a whole lot of Marines and a smattering of old tanks.
- I'm going to stick with 10-man units unless canon fluff specifically states otherwise [where does that Death Guard 7 come from?].

• What are their colour schemes?
- I know, for certain; WhScars, WEaters, TSons, DGuard, EChildren, and DAngels.

• What, if any, "specialities" did each Legion have? ie: Imperial Fists = siege, Blood Angels = choppy.

Griefbringer
18-12-2005, 00:02
I would presume that Razorbacks would be not kosher - at least the old WD article mentions them being re-discovered by Imperium somewhere around M.36 or so.

Kahadras
18-12-2005, 00:18
Hmmm interesting. I always thought that Space Wolves were Codex Grey rather than Space Wolf Grey during the Horus Heresy. I remember there being something in the 13th company fluff about them having the original colour scheme of the chapter as they pursued the Chaos forces into the Eye of Terror. On a seperate note I am painting up a Space Wolf army in their old colour scheme at the moment.

Kahadras

DrDoom
18-12-2005, 01:14
The Sons of Horus had grey-green armour and black trim, at least according to the IA article. And before they were the Sons they were called the Lunar Wolves and had white armour with black trim. (I realize you know all this but I'm a completist and can talk about the Black Legion all day.) At the time, the Sons were the personal Legion of the Emperor's favored son, so I guess they are pretty well equipped. The IA article says the Sons were at the forefront of the Crusade, often leaving other marine legion to mop up after they left.

Tactically they resembled the current Black Legion (minus the Daemons I think), in that they prefer to launch multiple simultaneous attacks on enemy positions. These attacks would increase in ferocity and frequency until the enemy was beginning to crack them a final assault would be launched while teleporting termies would tear the throats out of the enemy command. I think the IA and the Chaos Dex said they are extremely flexible though, so I imagine they are really just a Codex Chapter.

Pre and early Heresy Horus would look very much like a model Space Marine I imagine, since he was supposedly the best of that breed.

Late Heresy Horus is usually depicted as being big even for a terminator, armed with his claw (shocker) and a mace.

bigred
18-12-2005, 01:54
Well puffin, those are some large open questions you have dangling down there... several of which have no "correct" answer... so let the debate begin...


What was the basic organizational structure of each Legion leading up to the Heresy?
- I don't know other than a whole lot of Marines and a smattering of old tanks.
- I'm going to stick with 10-man units unless canon fluff specifically states otherwise [where does that Death Guard 7 come from?].

In general according to older versions of Epic (the early one were set during the Heresy), things have only changed slightly from the 40k point of view. What I mean by that is that many of the company sized organizations which have been codified into the Codex Astartes were in use. So we have battle companies (with 30 each of tactical/ assault/ devastators +command), tactical companies, assault companies, devastator companies, scout companies, and veteran companies.

The bread and butter armoured vehicle at the time would seem to be the Land Raider, as it was the only vehicle used in company sized formations (of 10 raiders, with no troops onboard) as a purely tank force. All the other vehicles (whirlwind, predator, vindicator, dreadnoughts, land speeder, bikes) were used in smaller three to five vehicle detachments to meet specific battlefield needs).

Of note is the standard use of rhinos to carry assault marines (perhaps due to the rarity of jump packs).

Some special equipment that has been lost over the 10000 years was used by both sides. These included:
-robots maniples (4)
-tarantula batteries
-thudd guns batteries
-mole mortar batteries
-jet bikes squads

Thunderhawks were available, as well as drop pods.

I dont believe that we have ever seen a formal description of the size of a legion, but is definately in the single digit thousands to small tens of thousands. The Index Astartes articles give us a dizzying array of higher than companiy structures used by the various legions. Some used oversized companies, others grouped the companies into groups of 5 or 10 under the command of "First Captains", "Great Captains", or "Masters". It seems that each legion devised their own structures above the company level.

ps... the Death Guard "7" reference comes from their Index Astartes article. It states, that their legion was never very large, but was formed from seven oversized "great companies", each of which had several companies within, seeded thickly with terminators." They regarded the number "7" as lucky and it often appeared in their organizational structures.


• What are their colour schemes?
- I know, for certain; WhScars, WEaters, TSons, DGuard, EChildren, and DAngels.

i'll try my best from memory, but the Index Astartes books Vols.1-4 are the way to go. Each legion has a pre-heresy marine illustrated in their original colors. Off the top of my head:

Dark Angels: all black
Space Wolves: grey/pelts
Ultramarines: all blue/yellow-gold trim
Salamanders: all green/black trim
Blood Angels: all red
White Scars: all white /red trim
Luna Wolves: all grey /??? trim
Thousand Sons: all red /black-gold trim
Word Bearers: all grey-black/scriptures trim
Alpha Legion: all green /purple trim
World Eaters: white/Blue combo armour
Raven Guard: all black
Death Guard: all white/ green trim
Iron Hands: all black/ white trim
Imperial Fists: all yellow/black-red trim
Night Lords: blue-lightning armour / red trim
Iron Warriors: gunmetal/ black-yellow trim
Emperor's Children: all purple/gold-yellow trim

Some of these may be off, my books are not with me.


• What, if any, "specialities" did each Legion have? ie: Imperial Fists = siege, Blood Angels = choppy.

Dark Angels: balanced + ravenwing +deathwing formations
Space Wolves: assault
Ultramarines: balanced
Salamanders: reliable-tough
Blood Angels: balanced-assault leaning
White Scars: fast attack raiding force
Luna Wolves: balanced
Thousand Sons: obtuse-sorcerous
Word Bearers: fanatical
Alpha Legion: special ops- complex battle plans
World Eaters: shock attacks-assault
Raven Guard: special ops- complex battle plans
Death Guard: reliable-tough
Iron Hands: zealous-balanced mechanized
Imperial Fists: siege masters
Night Lords: shock attacks-terror tactics
Iron Warriors: siege masters
Emperor's Children: perfectionists balanced

Feel free to start picking it apart ;)

-bigred

gLOBS
18-12-2005, 02:30
On the subject of assaultcannon modelling a dual or quad reaperautocannon would be suitable if used very sparringly in an army.

Puffin Magician
18-12-2005, 03:01
Thanks DrDoom, Sons of Horus as a "Codex" force sounds fine, given lots of kit like the Dark Angels. More access to stuff like Terminators and vehicles, where the other Legions are mainly infantry. Knowing that they'd attack in intensifying waves can help determine how the list should work. Most excellent.

And Bigred, that was a lot of posting, thanks for answering my questions. For Traits the Loyalists will get what the Codex says if only to avoid bitching in games, and on the same lineage I'll probably make the DA/BA/SW lists according to their special codex books. Traitor Legions will likely be as follows:

Sons of Horus, Word Bearers - Codex
Emperor's Children - Purity Above, Have Pride
World Eaters - No Mercy, Take the Fight, Flesh > Steel
Thousand Sons - Suffer not the Work, Faithful
Death Guard - Trust your Brothers, Cleanse, Flesh > Steel
Alpha Legion - Don't be Seen, Cleanse, Flesh > Steel
Night Lords - Don't be Seen, Blessed Warriors, Flesh > Steel
Iron Warriors - Honour your Wargear, No Mercy, Eye to Eye

As far as Legion Organization was concerned I was thinking more like whether a particular Legion [or several] had an inclination towards a particular warfare style ["inclination" in a degree similar to the Relictors], but I guess that doesn't make sense when there's 10.000 of them, fighting all over the place. Codex organization is completely rational.

Imperial Armour Volume Two allows Marine armies to take Tarantula Sentry guns as Heavy Support, so at least I can include those in the army. Ballisterai weapons and Legio Cybernetica is stuff I'll leave for my Adeptus Mechanicus armies. ;) I think I'm going to have no "bikes" in any force, modelling any bike units as Jetbikes.

Was the Ironwing also painted entirely Black? That's 4 all-black Legions, bleah. At least they'll be easy to paint.

As for the Assault Cannon I'm likely to use the Imperial Armour options for the Dreads; Heavy Bolters, Autocannons, Plasma Cannon.

Yodhrin
18-12-2005, 11:19
I believe the Ironwing used a dull metallic colourscheme, but Im not sure on that one.

malika
18-12-2005, 14:10
IIRC the Vindicator was developped after the Horus Heresy by Ultramarine Techmarines.

Landspeeder Squadrons are a must too, armed with heavy flamers and multi meltas.

Assault support squads are used, these are assault squads armed with assault weapons such as flamers and plasma guns.

Older plasma weapons which can overheat, Dark Angels would have more plasma weapons.

Puffin Magician
18-12-2005, 15:54
Imperial Armour says the Vindicator was developed during the Dark Age of Technology, so they existed, but since we don't hear much mention of them during the Heresy they might have been "lost" and only rediscovered later, or they were very rare in the Legion's armouries. I wouldn't mind making some MkIs and IIs for the Iron Warriors and Impy Fists.


So, how do you intend to build these marines?Think of what Hortworth did with his awesome Terminators and you're on the right track.

But what about the rest of the galaxy? How did orks or eldar or non-imperial humans play?Not interested; it's a Heresy Marine thread! :p

librerian_samae
18-12-2005, 16:25
about squad numbers, I remeber somthing about squad sizes of up to 20 but could be horribly misinformed

malika
18-12-2005, 16:33
about squad numbers, I remeber somthing about squad sizes of up to 20 but could be horribly misinformed
There werent st rules for Squad numbers...I think you should try to stick between 5 and 20 I guess...


Imperial Armour says the Vindicator was developed during the Dark Age of Technology, so they existed, but since we don't hear much mention of them during the Heresy they might have been "lost" and only rediscovered later, or they were very rare in the Legion's armouries. I wouldn't mind making some MkIs and IIs for the Iron Warriors and Impy Fists.
Great how GW contradicts itself once again...


Think of what Hortworth did with his awesome Terminators and you're on the right track.

He is a great example yes...there are many more though, too bad Bolter and Chainsword is down because they had some great stuff there!:evilgrin:


Not interested; it's a Heresy Marine thread!
Fair enough that it is a Marine thread...but it is still an interesting subject which GW has neglected...
Was the Imperium as xenophobic as it is now? Would it be possible to have Marines with Eldar weapons *gets flashbacks to Rogue Trader*

bigred
18-12-2005, 16:41
hey puffin,

I'd agree on the larger unit size thing. There are several quips here and there that speak of the legions using mass human wave assaults of marines to over
whelm opponents. (we still see this tactical tradition in use 10000 years later by the traitors with their chaos marine squad sizes of 5-20).

I would recommend altering the squad size for tactical squads to: 5-20 for all legions. All other squads of specialists stay the same. It simply offers up the option of mass bolter squads. (or BP/CCW squads if you use that doctrine)

-bigred

Puffin Magician
18-12-2005, 17:13
Well, the only way to get 20-man squads is to use the Chaos list... it's looking more and more acceptable despite how it would pretty much disregard everything I've done in the thread so far.

Bigger units, more appropriate weapon options [Autocannons, multiple specweaps for Raptors], and I could make proper Primarchs by using Daemon Princes.

All it'd take would be a quick tweak and use Veteran Skills instead of Traits.

The only problem with this would be there not being much of a difference between the Post- and Pre/Mid-Heresy lists, and I wouldn't mind having distinctly different World Eaters and Khorne Berzerkers and the like. Would simply the difference in models [Pre-H Legion colours for Isstvan III, Chaos colours & Daemons for Siege of Terra] be enough?

bigred
18-12-2005, 17:50
Hey puffin,

I'm not saying use the chaos dex, it is to far divergent from what you are after. I tried some months ago to make a "heresy era ruleset" and went back and forth between codices. At the end I went with modifications to the Marine dex, rather than use both it and the chaos dex. I believe the straw that broke the camel's back was my absolute requirment that ALL legions use ATSKNF. Once you make that fundamental choice, other parts of the chaos dex start to really go out of balance.

What i'm saying is that if you REALLY want to do this... (and it is a lot of work, I abandoned it months ago)...

You may want to filter your ideas into something like this:

1) The base dex is the current Space Marine Dex.

2) EVERY legion (including the loyalists) gets a one page document similar to the treatment of the legions in the chaos dex. This sheet will show their color scheme, give a paragraph or two of distilled fluff, then give them doctrines, unit restrictions and possibly a distinctive unit or two. You can feel free to break the strict doctrine rules as some of the original legions were very distictive, just keep them balanced (similar to certain of the famous IG regiments who dont exactly follow the IG doctrine rules)

3) This may even apply to the loyalists who in many cases were somewhat different than they are "now"(for example the Blood Angels were a more balanced force without the black rage).

4) Get lots of people in your area excited and interested in "adopting"/building a pre-heresy force. This is the hard part, without a decent sized stable of interested pre-heresy players, it is hard to find the energy to keep going, making up cool heresy scenarios... etc...

best wishes and good luck!!!

-bigred

Puffin Magician
18-12-2005, 18:12
I've been discussing this in mIRC and I only now remembered the Land Speeder thing. I want the Legions to have access to them [because they did], so Codex: Chaos is becoming a very unlikely option, except for during the Siege of Terra [where the Traitors had Daemons, Daemonic Engines, corrupted Titan Legions... their transformation was all but complete].

Currently I have a big ******* .txt file with all my ideas jotted down and allocated to the different Legions, basically an expansion of the stuff I've posted above. The Loyalist armies cause problems; the rules [Marines Codex] say that armies must use their Codex rules or no Traits at all... so Blood Angels can use either no Traits [which is unfortunate], or use C:BA and have the Black Rage and all that [which is worse].

I guess the answer to that would to be simply take "Codex" BA and let Wolves and DA use their own Codex.

Another question, since the Thousand Sons IA isn't clear [or I didn't read it well enough]; Ahriman casted his Rubric on the Legion after they fled into the Eye, correct? So any TSons attacking Terra would be their normal red & white, and not be power-armoured dustbins?

General Samuel of the 101
18-12-2005, 18:21
the rubric was not cast inmediately cast when they escaped to EoT,In the siege they were regular marines still only with a 41th Millenia Colour scheme and Magnus as a Daemon Prince

Shibboleth
18-12-2005, 18:28
When it comes to the Sons of Horus mid-heresy colour scheme it gets very confusing if you take into account the Sabretooth artwork.
I much prefer the most common Sabretooth scheme of Grey with Red gloves, but it seemingly contradicts the IA, which is the most correct, as fluff goes.
Yet, a couple of pictures in HH Vol. 1 show the IA pale green scheme being used (page 44 mainly), BUT, most confusing of all is a couple of pictures which show Purple Marines with Gold trim labelled as 'Sons of Horus' (pages 46 & 59).
At first I assumed this was obviously an error, but they have the Eye of Horus symbol on their banners, yet also the Imperial Eagle on their chest (which only the Emperor's Children were allowed to wear...) :wtf:

Does each Warrior Lodge in the Sons of Horus have a different colour scheme or something?
Related to their animal maybe?

I only have Volume 1 of the HH so I don't know if this is cleared up in vol 2,3. :confused:

Icarus
18-12-2005, 19:52
I would ignore the Sabretooth stuff and go by the IA article. It seems that an infinite amount of monkeys with typewriters may not be able to reproduce the works of Shakespeare, but the 10 diseased monkeys they have at Sabretooth Games can make some truly terrible and inaccurate Horus Heresy background.

Puffin Magician
18-12-2005, 20:28
In the Siege [of Terra] they were regular [not dust] marines, only with a 41th Millenia Colour scheme.I don't see how their colours would change before the Rubric was cast. I thought that the change was a result of the spell, and the IA article and actually the HHCCG artwork [at least what I've seen] coincides with that.

Do we know when the other Legions changed their colours? Black Legion is obvious, but the others are pretty foggy. Had the Legions succumbed to the Chaos Cults, meaning there were Plague Marines, Noise Marines and Berzerkers amongs them by the time Horus was killed? According to the timeline they had 1-2 years between turning Traitor and assaulting the Imperial Palace, so was plenty of opportunity...

Icarus
18-12-2005, 21:11
I'm not sure but I think the Thousand Sons loyal to Ahriman were changed to blue + yellow, whilst those that remained with the brooding Magnus remained their original red?

World Eaters techincally never changed their colours, their armour is stained with countless amounts of blood.

Death Guard also never changed, but their armour became infested and hence became all green and pussy.

Emperor's Children reconfigured into Noise Marines, so maybe their addition of black occured around the same time.

The Black Legion became black when they changed from Sons of Horus to the Black Legion, painting their armour black in shame of their failure.

Alpha Legion, Night Lords and Iron Warriors are more or less the same.

Which leaves the Word Bearers changing to Red, which I have no (fluff-wise) explanation for.

Brother Othorio
18-12-2005, 21:14
but the 10 diseased monkeys they have at Sabretooth Games can make some truly terrible and inaccurate Horus Heresy background.

Sabretooth doesnt have diseased monkeys, they have GW's head of IP trying to reconcile the self contradictory biased in-character IA articles and the matter of fact godseye view Horus Heresy fluff from the original EPIC


At first I assumed this was obviously an error, but they have the Eye of Horus symbol on their banners, yet also the Imperial Eagle on their chest (which only the Emperor's Children were allowed to wear...) i havent seen the picture but i will state: it is a mislabeled Emperors Child, there were a fair few heresy era EC in Eavy Metal around the 120's i think, they used the Eye of Horus banner to avoid friendly fire (not a good idea to run around a battlefield flying a big flag bearing the symbol of the other sides cause)


Assault Cannons were designed post-heresy based on Autocannon technology are you sure? i've heard that argument alot and it has always ended with someone producing the 2e Chaos Codex which apparently states that it was designed either pre or mid heresy but wasnt widely adopted due to its unreliability (likewise "imperial" plasma weapons werent post-heresy, its just that the traitors felt the higher rate of fire of the mk1 outweighed the occassional gunner being vapourised)


Do we know when the other Legions changed their colours? not worth much admitedly, but Space Marine 1st edition was set during the Great Scouring, and had both EC and WE still in their pre-heresy colours

malika
18-12-2005, 23:37
Information about the Vindicator stolen from Dakkadakka:

http://bb.anteam.biz/viewtopic.php?t=2&sid=fecbab83f6e01c36a1a08a8d8daf6f04
356-372.M31 Vindicator created during third Rothern I pacification of the Great Heresy. WD231

and

http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/inq40k/timeline.html
356-372.M31 The first prototypes of the Vindicator Close Support Armored Vehicle are created during the third Rothern I pacification by Techmarines of the Ultramarines.

General Samuel of the 101
18-12-2005, 23:40
So they are Something Mid-Heresy Late-Heresy,Righ?

malika
18-12-2005, 23:55
When does the Heresy end? The pacification of the Great Heresy to me sounds more like something post Heresy...you know cleaning up the remains of the great civil war.

One more thing...Land Raiders were very common before and during the Heresy, the Imperial Army used them and the Space Marines had whole companies of them. So I suggest making them a normal transport vehicle, similar to the Rhino.

Cherubael
18-12-2005, 23:55
, meaning there were Plague Marines, Noise Marines and Berzerkers amongs them by the time Horus was killed? According to the timeline they had 1-2 years between turning Traitor and assaulting the Imperial Palace, so was plenty of opportunity...

Plague Marines would certainly have been around given the circumstances that caused the Death Guard to begin worshipping Nurgle.

Noise Marines appeared during the Siege of Terra, attacking civilian populations to use them as ingredients for various narcotics.

Puffin Magician
19-12-2005, 00:05
the Thousand Sons loyal to Ahriman changed whilst those that remained with Magnus remained red?The IA article says that Ahriman's spell engulfed the Planet of Sorcerors, which is like where all the TSons were, and even if they weren't all on the planet I'd assume that the spell was meant to effect all Thousand Sons regardless of where they were. Ahriman's a pretty powerful fellow.

World Eaters & Death Guard techincally never changed...They do have a lot of black/brass in their current schemes, they carry touch-up paint to fix that after every battle? ;) They would also have to repair battle damage; a replacement shoulderpad [or whatever] would not be painted White!

Emperor's Children reconfigured into Noise MarinesI know, I just need to know when. :p

And Alpha Legion changed, they went from purple-blue to green-blue, and added silver. It's not major but it's a clear difference.

Which leaves the Word Bearers changing to Red, which I have no explanation for.Me neither.

Space Marine 1st edition was set during the Great Scouring, and had both EC and WE still in their pre-heresy coloursWell snap, I think it's likely that some had become Cult Marines by then though, giving in to their patron gods over a year prior.

356-372.M31 Vindicator createdSo the Legions of Space Marines only figured out that a Siege vehicle might be a good idea mere centuries after the Horus Heresy? What convenient timing!

So far:
• Pre- & Mid-Heresy Legions = Codex: Space Marines, with traits and colours discussed in the thread.
• Late- & Post-Heresy Legions = Codex: Chaos Space Marines, with their individual army lists there. *Thousand Sons
• Assault Cannon. Hmm, conflicting evidence? Maybe I'll reserve it to Dreadnoughts the same with Multimeltas and Plasma Cannons.

Brother Othorio
19-12-2005, 00:09
for the record, the original (first ever i think) fluff for the vindicator was:

Like the Predator, the Vindicator is a variant on the
Rhino APC chassis. It carries a single heavy weapon in a
front swivel mount - a heavy assault gun known as the
Thunderer. The Vindicator was originally designed by the
Loyalist forces for fighting in built-up areas, where range
was secondary to the gun’s effect against buildings and enemy armor. After its decisive role in the clearance of Stahlenburg during the Scouring of Rotstern I, the forces of Horus copied the design, and within months the
Vindicator was in use by both sides.

conventional end-date for the Horus Heresy is 021.m31, the current date given (as quoted by malika) is 356-372.M31, however it mentions the Great Heresy, which from its use in the Salamander IA would seem to be another name for the Horus Heresy, in which case its just another instance of GW not bothering to get their numbers right

Puffin Magician
19-12-2005, 00:13
Sorry for the double post, but there's a lot of damn replying to do.

When does the Heresy end?Timeline says: 014.M31-021.M31

One more thing...Land Raiders were very common before and during the Heresy.I know, but it's not like I can use Land Raiders as transports for Tactical Squads. I might take 1 as an HQ transport and for Terminators [if the army has them], and possibly 1 as Heavy to leave slots open for a Predator and Devastators.

Plague Marines would certainly have been around...Wasn't it that Virus gas attack on the Legion by Mortarion? I don't remember exactly what and certainly not when.

Noise Marines appeared during the Siege of Terra...I knew there was an Emperor's Children rampage on Terra, just wasn't sure if they were Noise Marines yet.

Edit: response to Othorio:
So even if it was during the Heresy and the Traitor Legions got their hands on it, it was the very last stages, circa 020.M31? Bah, shame. Would've been fun to see a few MkI's painted up in their Loyalist colours.

Brother Othorio
19-12-2005, 00:36
Wasn't it that Virus gas attack on the Legion by Mortarion? I don't remember exactly what and certainly not when. no, Mortarion was as much a victim as his legion, whilst attempting a very long distance warp jump in order to reach Terra in time of the Seige, the Death Guard fleet became becalmed in the warp, at the same time the entire legion began to be decimated by an incurable plague of no known origin, in his despair Mortarion cried out for any help.. and Father Nurgle answered


Edit: response to Othorio:
So even if it was during the Heresy and the Traitor Legions got their hands on it, it was the very last stages, circa 020.M31? Bah, shame. Would've been fun to see a few MkI's painted up in their Loyalist colours.

nope, according to White Dwarf 117 (Eavy Metal to be precise) they were in service at the Siege of Terra

a point about the timeline, i'm dubious about that, the 014.m31 start date seems to come from the battle for earth short story, however its blatantly obvious to me that "the bombardment" in question referred to the preliminary bombardment of earth prior to the traitors making planetfall, coupled with Realms of Chaos: Lost and the Damned putting the DG's warp jump as being in the third year of the Horus Heresy i would put it as 011.m31-014.m31 and the Great Scouring as 014.m41-021.m41