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Nakat
15-04-2009, 17:30
Pardon me if this seems obvious, or was answered conclusively in another thread. I searched and didn't find anything specific.

A friend and I were talking last night about Kholek Suneater. I know the FAQ states that he is both a monster and a character, and points specifically to the fact that as a character, he cannot be targeted by spells that target monsters. My question is, what rules of characters and monsters does he follow?

Can he be challenged? I would assume so, and since he can never be part of a unit he must always accept, unless there is another friendly character or champion participating in that same combat. This seems like a rather large vulnerability, taking him out of the majority of the combat, and tying him up round after round (especially in the case of Vampire Counts).

My friend on the other hand postulated that as he was a monster as well, he cannot be challenged at all, nor can he issue them, as a character could. As he does not have the Eye of the Gods rule, that seemed a believable statement.

I guess what I'm asking, is whether or not there is a rule anywhere that I cannot find (I am a little new to the game still) that says a large target/monster cannot be challenged? And if not, could someone give me a conclusive statement as to why he can be, to help us settle this. There's a RTT coming up, and I want to use the big guy, so I need to be versed in his oddities.

Thank you all in advance.

Lord Zarkov
15-04-2009, 17:50
He is a character so follows all the rules for Characters, including Challenges.

He also follows some of the rules for monsters such as US=wounds, Movement as a Monster, May not Join units, etc, but is not considered a monster.

The only reason that models other than Characters can't issue/accept challenges is that in general only characters have a rule allowing them to do so, not that they have some rule forbidding them from doing so. Kholek is a character and therefore may issue/accept challenges as normal.

Nakat
15-04-2009, 17:54
That's about what I thought. Out of curiousity, as he cannot join a unit, am I right in saying there must be another champion and/or character in the fight to allow him to escape having to participate in the challenge?

Lord Zarkov
15-04-2009, 18:04
You would be correct. If there is no other valid acceptee in the combat the Kholek must accept.

NotFarnaby
16-04-2009, 04:51
He's also often better off in a challenge. I can't think of too many situations where he's worse off in a challange than out of one, with regards to active CR.

Against the usual rank 'n' file crap he averages 4-5 casualties (8 attacks, 5.33 hits, 4.44 wounds, probably no save). In a challenge, he's nearly guaranteed the 5+ overkill with his d3 wounds per hit hammer, since that's probably going to be 8.88 and might go as high as 13ish (well over the 5+ limit). Against ogres, minos, and other multi-wounders, a challenge might hurt but in those situations the big guy's still going to be able to generate the 5+ overkill + 3 wounds, which is more than enough.

Nakat
16-04-2009, 14:23
That makes sense. The challenges I was really thinking of weren't against characters (really, who is that stupid, especially if I charged?), but against unit champions. The d3 wounds won't matter much at all there if I understand correctly. Don't you only multiply wounds against someone with multiples? Would that work on a champion?

Typing it out now I'm honestly not sure, and I would love to be wrong about this.

kroq'gar
16-04-2009, 14:29
van hosts spectrum... yum yum

Nakat
16-04-2009, 14:41
van hosts spectrum... yum yum

Um, I'm sorry? Gesundheit?

Draco74
16-04-2009, 19:18
They are talking about the item in the Empire magic list where you and you enemy exchange fighting stats. They usually give it to a low level wizard and then challenge the toughest thing they can find (Kolek). Now the wizard fights like Kolek and Kolek fights like a level 1 wizard....not good. Also the DoC Changling in a unit of Horrors does the same thing. I saw one really ruin a treemans day.

pfishy98
17-04-2009, 18:04
van hosts spectrum... yum yum

:mad: i hate that thing! you have no idea how many closed list battles i have lost due to that retarded thing

nosferatu1001
18-04-2009, 10:11
That makes sense. The challenges I was really thinking of weren't against characters (really, who is that stupid, especially if I charged?), but against unit champions. The d3 wounds won't matter much at all there if I understand correctly. Don't you only multiply wounds against someone with multiples? Would that work on a champion?

Typing it out now I'm honestly not sure, and I would love to be wrong about this.

In challenges the D3 wounds WILL apply for the purposes of overkill - this is clearly stated in BRB FAQ part 2. So yes, Kholek is mostly better of in a challenge...

Godgolden
19-04-2009, 01:23
except his res caps out at 6 in that case, where out of a challenge he 'can' kill 8 (with frenzy)

there no disadvantage either way for him really, hes going to win the combat, it sjust by how much.

sulla
19-04-2009, 06:33
except his res caps out at 6 in that case, where out of a challenge he 'can' kill 8 (with frenzy)

there no disadvantage either way for him really, hes going to win the combat, it sjust by how much.

Well, he needs about 3 hits vs a champ to max out at +6CR. Vs rank and file, he needs to hit and wound 6 times to achieve the same. He's probably more likely to achieve the total in the challenge since one third of all hits should miss and then 1's fail to wound.

Still worth it vs knights or multi wound creatures though...

popisdead
05-05-2009, 19:26
He MUST challenge. He's a character in a Warrior of Chaos army.

With S8 D3 wounds he's going to almost always get +6 CR too.

anuburos
05-05-2009, 20:00
Actually, Kholek doesn't have eye of the gods so he doesn't have to accept unless he is the only character/champion in combat (combo charges). It doesn't matter though, you want him in combat. Place him center field so the enemy has to either corner themselves to get away from him or where there is the most action. He's is completely brutal. Only thing to really worry about are the speculum thingy, changling, and a dreadlord with the reverse ward save that nullifies him.

nosferatu1001
05-05-2009, 22:02
Anuburos - against all sense they FAQ'd that Eye of teh GOds applies to everyone, even if they dont have the rule. ******. SO yes, he does have to challenge.

anuburos
05-05-2009, 22:16
Nosferatu- You're right. I would challenge with him anyway, but no eye of the gods benefit?:wtf:

Oh well- I'd probably roll "eye is closed" any way. Although I've had a single troll walking around causing terror, 4+ ward save, +1 strength, with magic resistance walking around. Too bad my general was dead so he just wandered around.

Witchblade
06-05-2009, 05:15
I've had a single troll walking around causing terror, 4+ ward save, +1 strength, with magic resistance walking around. Too bad my general was dead so he just wandered around.
Then he was stubborn too. That's brilliant!

On topic, the WoC FAQ is just as badly written as the army book. :(

Nurgling Chieftain
06-05-2009, 14:22
I actually agree with the FAQ in this case - it's the army book that was written badly, putting a universal rule in the middle of a special rule.

Avian
06-05-2009, 19:40
Whether it is the FAQ or the army book that was badly written depends on what the intent of the rule was, and we don't really know that. :p

If it was intended to work like it now works according to the FAQ, then it was a pretty silly idea to begin with.

CaliforniaGamer
06-05-2009, 19:56
except his res caps out at 6 in that case, where out of a challenge he 'can' kill 8 (with frenzy)

there no disadvantage either way for him really, hes going to win the combat, it sjust by how much.

Naw, against a run of the mill skeleton block he is challenged by the unit champion, kills him and gets 1+5 overkill. The skeles have numbers, ranks, banner and warbanner for 6+, skeles win by 1 due to musician.

Witchblade
06-05-2009, 22:03
7 x 2/3 x 5/6 = 3.9 wounds on skellies. Best not to accept Kholek's challenge if you want him to flee. The extra number of dead skeletons shouldn't matter. If you want to tarpit him (more likely), then challenging is the better option, as you'll only lose the champion and he'll probably succeed his break test.

Nurgling Chieftain
06-05-2009, 23:02
Run of the mill skeleton blocks have warbanners? :p

CaliforniaGamer
07-05-2009, 01:54
Run of the mill skeleton blocks have warbanners? :p

mine do, that or vamp with walking death.

SCR+6 and musician, never leave home without it.:skull:

Lord Yawgmoth
07-05-2009, 06:02
mine do, that or vamp with walking death.

SCR+6 and musician, never leave home without it.:skull:


-I concur-