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Sarah S
16-04-2009, 00:15
There seems to be some confusion about how many points legendary companies cost.

While I don't want to seem arrogantly authoritative, I along with many other posters believe that the proper method of calculating the cost for a legendary company is to pay the both costs listed in the unit entry if you only take a single company.

The reasoning is thus:

The unit entries are all of the same form:

X points + Y points per company

For example, The Grey Company is:

75 points + 40 per company

Under the "Command" heading for legendary companies they state:

The first company purchased is automatically the command company and has Characters included in the base cost.

Taking again The Grey Company as our example:

The first company purchased is the command company and has Halbarad included in the base cost.

Some players have, in my opinion, wrongly taken the first cost listed in the unit entry to be the "base cost," so if they were to take 1 company of Theodred's Knights, they would pay only 135 points.

I believe that is incorrect.

The reason it is incorrect is because they have not purchased any companies. The cost for the formation is 75 points, but paying that amount gets you nothing, because the cost per company is 40 points. You do not actually purchase any companies until you pay the second cost listed. That first company purchased is the command company and comes with the characters.

The cost is expressed as "per company," if the first (or any) company was included in the first cost (the "X") cost then the unit entry would have to say "+Y per additional company."

Another way of looking at it is to simply do the addition that the unit entries tell you to do.

So if you are taking 2 companies of The Grey Company you would pay:
75 points
+
45 points per company

since you have 2 companies that's 2x45 points= 90 points
for a total of 165 points.

By the strict reading of the unit entry, that is the proper method of calculating the cost of the unit. There is no indication that any companies are included in the first cost, and no modification of the term "per company" that would, in any way, restrict the command company.

This alone should be sufficient and convincing evidence. That said, I shall prevent more.

While not strictly relevant from a rules standpoint, GW has opted for the X+Y cost of Legendary Formations in the rulebook as well as online:
3 companies of Sharku's Hunters with bows on p.16 for 165 points.
3 companies of Ugluk's Raiders on p.16 for 205 points.
6 companies of Erkenbrad's Riders on p.17 for 355 points.
4 Companies of Rivendell Guard here for 385 points:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=&pIndex=4&aId=15100007&start=5

Although we all know that GW is notorious for simple adding mistakes, I refuse to believe that they consistently made the same mistake in every instance they chose to declare the points values that they were using.

The final (and least conclusive) argument is that it would be stupid from a gameplay point of view to imagine that any companies were included in the points cost of Legendary Formations.

Taking The Grey Company as our example again, let's imagine for a moment that the command company was included in the 75 point cost.
For that 75 points we get:
1 Company of troops equivalent to Rangers of Arnor, but with +1D, +C, the special rules Stalwart and Indomitable, the ability to strike at the same time as cavalry and a hero with 5 courage and 3 might.

A single company of Rangers of Arnor, lacking all of the advantages, equipped with a regular Captain of Rangers, who lacks the advantages provided by Halbarad, would cost 80 points.

That means that for 5 points less, the Grey Company get:
+1D
+1C (+2 relative to the heroes)
Stalwart
Indomitable
Valour of Forgotten Arnor (strike as cavlry)
a hero with 1 more might

Does that seem reasonable?

Of course not. Their cost is when accurately calculated is 115 points, which seems much more in line with their manyfold advantages.

I just wanted to have all my arguments in one place, and hopefully stickied, so we can just link people to this when they start trying to argue that Legendary Companies should be ridiculously inexpensive.

Nu Fenix
16-04-2009, 00:53
I am in the camp where you pay for the amount of Companies you wish to use, and then pay the additional price for them being Legendary.

If the first Company was built into the Legendary points cost, then they would be worded like the Regiments of Reknown in Warhammer, where you pay for extra models and a base fee for the command.

Until this gets officially answer by GW however, I can see this being the biggest divide within the game, and both players will need to be on the same wavelength when building their armies for a battle.

dtjunkie19
16-04-2009, 04:29
I really can't believe that someone would honestly believe that any other way than what is being suggested here could be right. Even if the wording is somewhat confusing, paying less points for a better formation than its common equivalent? No. Nooooooooooooo. They are good enough already

arobe
16-04-2009, 07:43
totally agree the first points does not include the company.

Still good value.

But I understand why player may have read it the other way, I did first time too.

Odin
16-04-2009, 13:38
Cheers for taking the time to set all that out logically Sarah S. I had thought it was the other way around, but I can't fault your reasoning. Increases the cost of my Rangers of Ithilien somewhat, but that's ok.

Needs to be FAQd though, just to make sure everyone uses the same system.

Nilhouse
16-04-2009, 18:34
I am also in agreement!

The Muster of Rohan
20-04-2009, 11:57
Agreed also.

backslide
20-04-2009, 15:31
agreed it does seem a tad unclear, half a sentence in the rule book would have made it crystal clear!

Quannum
23-04-2009, 01:38
Yeah one word would have resolved this at least one way.

However, I have been told by several staffers at GW, at different stores, some doing management training or in management already, that the first points cost includes the first company.

So, should you only wish to take one company of Osgiliath Veterans, you pay 120 points, not 155 points.

Q

Sarah S
23-04-2009, 01:50
I think they are wrong, and I don't think they are a reasonable authority to overrule the arguments above.

You should probably tell them to come read this thread so they quit telling people the wrong thing! :)

The Muster of Rohan
23-04-2009, 10:23
Quannum, rules as written (x points + y per company) says that your way is incorrect. The examples used by the guys who wrote the book (who, y'know, may have some idea of rules as intended) do it this way. Moreover, common sense says to do it this way, or you get some damned weird anomalies - see Sarah's first post.

As an aside, having spent three years working for GW under various managers, and a further fifteen frequenting various GW stores, I can tell you that managers are decidedly not an authority for rules decisions.

Quannum
23-04-2009, 12:22
As an aside, having spent three years working for GW under various managers, and a further fifteen frequenting various GW stores, I can tell you that managers are decidedly not an authority for rules decisions.

trust me, you don't have to tell me that twice! I've always thought it to be weird. I'm gonna go with Sarah's option because that way, if we find out that we are wrong, we have gained some points to play with, rather than having the shave points off.

Q

Whitehorn
09-07-2009, 13:54
Minor point, but you overlooked some numbers here :)

75 points
+
45 points per company

since you have 2 companies that's 2x40 points= 80 points

Sarah S
11-07-2009, 18:20
Thanks for the heads up, I changed my example halfway through.

Max_Killfactor
13-07-2009, 17:07
Nice sticky, exactly what I came here for.

I agree with Sarah S and the WD batreps seem to agree with her also.

jaws900
19-07-2009, 18:51
A much as I would liek to debate this i can't really as thats what it says. But it shouldn't. You should play the 105 pts etc for the first companie to reposent the hero and other things like banner or hornblower and then add an extra 30 for every addisonal companie (Sorry about the spelling)

Aenerion
24-07-2009, 17:05
I hopelessly only have a french rulebook and in it the legendary compagny have a cost define as is: X pts + Y pts per EXTRA company

Furthermore the example of the rulebook you gave have been changed in the french one:

3 companies of Sharku's Hunters with bows on p.16 for 165 points. --> 140pts in french
3 companies of Ugluk's Raiders on p.16 for 205 points. --> 175pts in french
6 companies of Erkenbrad's Riders on p.17 for 355 points. --> 315pts in french

So I don't know what they did but it's a bit confusing.

Johnny189
03-08-2009, 19:10
I agree with this method of costing for almost every legendary formation until I look at rivendell guard. If I were to take a cohort with captain and banner I would be paying 85 points for the upgrades. The rivindell guard upgrade is then 120 points, 35 points more for making the formation stalwart AND 5 points more per company.

Ex-Blueshirt
03-08-2009, 20:01
I think that the extra might point for the Cohort captain may be a typo.

Johnny189
04-08-2009, 11:20
That etra might point for the cohort is the only reason I can see for them being rare not common, the galadhrim with shields are common so why not the high elves?

Ex-Blueshirt
04-08-2009, 16:38
Because they negate a major weakness of elves by having a high defense.

Johnny189
04-08-2009, 16:51
Galadhrim with shields do that for 10 points less and only 1 less defence.

Ex-Blueshirt
04-08-2009, 17:50
This is true. Cohorts aren't a great choice, Rivendell guard even less so.

On topic: That doesn't change the pricing system for legendary formations.

ferrumvir
09-12-2009, 21:49
Thanks Sarah S. I find your logic spot on.

I have to say this puzzled me for a while, though I did come to the same conclusion. I also spent a fair amount of time skimming the rule book looking for the clarification.

I've printed out your thread so I don't have to explain it to others.

Thanks again.

Cheers Scott

HRM
30-12-2009, 01:25
I had a guy at GW tell me that the reason they priced them that way was to encourage the use of named characters/units, rather than nameless ones, to keep in the spirit of Tolkiens world. I can't remember his exact wording, but it was basically to say that if two models for Erkenbrands Riders cost 155 points, and two models of Riders Of Rohan with Erkenbrand stuck in cost 105 points, why would you ever take Erkenbrands Riders? I remember he said "We WANT you to use the big guys; we don't want War Of The Ring to turn into Warhammer."

Fuzzy logic, but an interesting perspective.

Edonil
30-12-2009, 14:48
And one they went overboard with when it comes to the Court of the Dead King.

Gondor fan!!!
21-04-2010, 08:35
They are probably common because they can't carry shields. I agree with Sarah about legendary formations. Can the council of wizardry use their magic to bring back casualties.

Paraelix
21-04-2010, 09:17
I honestly had not taken the point values this way >_> I had assumed the first price covered the initial company.

That said, I do believe one of the unit entries *actually* seems to indicate they pay for the first company- Abrakhan Guard does not state "The first copmany purchased..." it just says "The guard includes x and x in its base cost."

ForgottenLore
21-04-2010, 09:23
A lot of people assume that the first company is included in the base cost, but that isn't what the rules actually say.

Once school is out I may try and find the time to do an in depth breakdown of the various legendary formations and their point costs.

Paraelix
21-04-2010, 11:38
It makes sense to me now, but I tend to just skim through and assume that rules are similar to Warhammer F/40k... So when I see a points cost, I assume that it buys me something usable without recourse to spending more points :P

- V -
22-04-2010, 13:29
Your arguments are very valid, can't really find anything to counter it other than "it isn't like that in fantasy and 40k". Seems like another thing quite essential to agree on, even before making army lists.

Just checked up on it, and my army builder (version 3.x) calculate it the same way, so the first company in the grey company cost 115 points, and then 40 points pr. additional company after the first.

Reinholt
22-04-2010, 16:44
Page 16 and 17 of the rulebook have army lists with legendary formations.

It is clear from those (as they have both Sharku's Hunters with Bows and Erkenbrand's Riders) that the initial value for a legendary formation does NOT include the cost of the first company.

skuller
22-04-2010, 16:49
Nice explained ...I was using the wrong system hahaha

ForgottenLore
15-05-2010, 10:15
Well, I said I was going to do a breakdown of all the costs for these formations and here it is.

While I think the debate about this has died down by now and most people have accepted that the 1st company is not included in the first cost I never saw anyone actually analyze all of the formations and break down the costs, so I decided to do that.

All the split cost formations are essentially regular troops being led by a hero (or more than one). What I have done here is compared the formation's leader to a standard captain of that army then I subtracted the cost of a basic captain and any unit upgrades that come with the formation from the base cost to see how many points that hero's improvements cost.

Oh, and this is very, very long. After all this detailed analysis I will have some conclusions at the bottom.

Gondor Formations

Rangers of Ithilien.
Madril gets +1 Mt over a captain and the formation gets Damrod with 1 Mt and the bodyguard rule.
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 45 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements cost only 15 pts.

Denethor's Guard
Denethor has the Broken Mind ability (which may or may not be good) and the formation gets Beregond, which adds +2 Mt to the formation.
If the 1st company is NOT included in the base cost these improvements cost 15 pts.
If the 1st company IS included, the formations is actually 20 points cheaper than citadel guard with a generic captain and the same upgrade figures would be. In other words you would get +2 Mt and save 20 points.

Osgiliath Vetrans
Cirion gets +1C, +1Mt and allows formation to auto pass terror tests
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 35 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements are free.
Also, the troops in this formation are essentially Citidel guards with -1C but shields and bows for free.

Court of the Dead King (FAQed to hav ethe correct cost for the companies)
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, this ability costs 60 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost this ability is free.

Dunedain of Arnor
Arathorn gets +1C, +1Mt and Take Aim ability
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 25 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements provide a 10 pt rebate.
Also, for +5 pts per company the formation has significant improvements over the generic ranger formations.

Grey Company
Halbarad gets +1C, +1Mt, compared to a captain and lets formation strike as Cavalry
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 25 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements are 15 points cheaper than the less effective generic captain.

Royal Guard of Arnor
King Arvedui gats +2C and the formation gets Malbeth the Seer with +1Mt and a 6+ Save for the formation
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 30 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements are free.

Wardens of the Keys
Hurin gets +1 Mt compared to a generic captain
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 25 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements 35 points cheaper than this infantry type would be with just a generic captain.

Blackroot Vale Archers
Duinhir has -1C compared to a regular captain.
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, he is 20 points more expensive than a captain.
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost then he is 5 points cheaper than a captain.
Also, compared to rangers of gondor, BRV Archers gain ambusher and longbows but have -1F for 5 points cheaper than the rangers

Rohan Formations

The Kings Guard
Gamling has -1F and -1C compared to a captain of rohan, and Hama adds +1 Mt and Bodyguard
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these changes cost 50 points
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these changes cost only 15 pts.

Erkenbrand's Riders
Erkenbrand has +1Mt and his formation auto passes terror checks
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 30 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements save the formation 10 points over a generic captain.

Theodred's Knights
Theodred is identical to a captain except he has a 4+ chance to regain any Mt he spends
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, this improvement cost 50 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost this ability costs only 5 pts.

Grimbold's Helmingas
Grimbold is identical to a Captain of Rohan in both cost and abilities. If the 1st company was included in the first cost you would be getting a captain for 20 points
Compared to Oathsworn Militia his troops cost 10 points more and gain +1S and +1C

Elfhelm's Riders
Elfhelm is identical to a Captain of Riders
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost he costs 5 pts more than a captain
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost he saves the formation 35 points
For +10 points per company the troops do have better shooting and Master Pathfinders compared to Riders of Rohan

Elven Formations

Rivendel Guard
Erestor is identical to a High Elf Cohort Commander
Without the first company he costs 40 pts more than the commander, with the 1st company he is 25 points cheaper
The troops cost 5 points/company more than a cohort, but gain stalwart

Gildor's Household
Gildor has the same stats as a high elf captain and is a lvl 2 spellcaster
If the 1st company is not included in the base cost his spellcasting costs 75 points, If it is his spellcasting costs 35 points.
His troops are similar to wood elf archers with +1F and ambusher for 5 points less.

Haldir's Elves
Haldir has +1Mt compared to a galadhrim captain and the take aim ability.
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements are still a 5 pt savings over the generic version
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements cost 55 points less than the generic version would.

Guardians of Caras Galdhon
Rumil has +1Mt over a Galadhrim captain
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, this costs him 25 points
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost this Mt increase is 45 points cheaper than a generic captain.
The troops of this formation get +1S and Stalwart compared to Guards of the Galadhrim Court for free.

Dwarven Formations

Murin's Guard
Murin gets +1Mt over a captain and the Lock Shields ability
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, this costs 25 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost this is 15 points cheaper than the generic captain

Drar's Hunters
Drar has +1Mt and Take Aim
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 45 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements cost only 5 pts.
The companies are also cheaper than dwarf rangers and gain throwing weapons and ambushers

Durin's Guard
Durin has +1F, +2R, and +1 Mt and Inspiring Hero and Terror over a captain. The formation also gains Mardin with another point of Mt and the Bodyguard ability.
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 100 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements cost only 50 pts.

Forgotten Kingdoms
These don't have regular captains to compare them too, but I put them in for completeness.

Wardens of the Carrock
Grimbeorn has +2R and adds D6 bonus attacks on the charge over what captains usually have. If the 1st company is NOT included he costs 60 points, 10 points more than a captain. If the 1st company IS included he costs 15 points total, 35 points cheaper than a regular captain.

Woses Warband
Ghan buri Ghan looks to be a straight up +1Mt over normal captains and that point of Mt is either 25 pts or free depending on whether the 1st company is counted.

Mordor Formations

Shagrat's Tower Guard
Shagrat gets +1F, +1R, +1Mt and his Brutal Discipline ability
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 25 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements are free

Gorbags Morgul Rats
Gorbag has +1Mt and Move It You Slugs
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 25 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements cost 10 pts

Grishnakh's Trackers
Grishnakh gets +1Mt and Take Aim
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 25 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements are 5 pts cheaper than the generic formation

Isengard Formations

Ugluks Raiders
Ugluk has +1Mt, Furious Charge, and Forward You Maggots
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 65 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements cost 35 pts
His formation is Uruk-hai scouts with free shields

Vrashku's Talons
Vrashku has +1Mt and Take Aim
This costs 45 points without the 1st company or only 10 points if it is included.

Sharku's Hunters
Sharku has +1C, +1Mt and Cause terror when they charge
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 25 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements are free
His formation costs 5 pts more than regular Warg riders and comes with +1C and expert riders instead of skilled riders

Mauhur's Maurauders
Mauhur gets +1Mt and the fantastic Man-Flesh ability
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 50 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements cost 20 pts

Fallen Realms Formations

Abrakhan Guard
The Golden King has +1Mt and the Golden Hoard ability
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 15 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements are 15 points cheaper than the generic haradrim chieftan
The troops of this formation are 5 points more expensive than haradrim and gain nothing for it that I can see

I wanted to do this because I spotted a patter in the arguments about this subject. It seemed that all the people who thought the 1st company WAS included in the base cost used Rohan formations as examples, so I thought maybe there was a problem with the costing of the Rohan ones.

Sure enough, the Rohan split cost formations are pretty sucky compared to all the others, with the king's guard being probably the worst, having you pay more points for a hero who is WORSE than a generic captain.

The overall winner is probably Haldir's Elves though, who come with Haldir, a banner and a hornblower but cost less than a captain, banner and hornblower no matter how you cost it and you get free Mt and Take Aim

Assuming people can understand what I'm saying here (it is 5am right now, who knows how coherent I am being) this should make it pretty clear how these companies should be bought, and that Rohan players shouldn't buy any at all.

Finally, just for those who may be interested, the number of split cost formations broken down by army

Good - 23 formations
Gondor - 9
Rohan - 5
Elves - 4
Dwarves - 3
FK - 2

Evil - 8 formations
Mordor - 3
Isengard - 4
Misty Mountains - 0
FR - 1
Angmar - 0

The Eye That Never Sleeps
22-10-2010, 22:33
On GW website, in the LOTR section, go to WOTR articles and then gaming. Click the Battle Report (Aug 09), then, on the left, click 3. Clad In Mithril. The army list for this 1500pt Dwarf army includes the Legendary Formation of Drar's Hunters. Other formations in this army have a pts total in bold type and under this is a breakdown of that total (not in bold).
Drar's Hunters - 95 and 2 Companies - 70 are both bold, meaning that this 2 company formation costs a total of 165 pts.
Add this 165 to all the other pts for the Dwarf army and you have a total of 1490 pts (10 short of 1500).
If the cost of the command company, inc. Drar, was only 95 pts, then Mr Troke would be 40 pts short of 1500, meaning that he would obviously make up the difference with another company (maybe a 3rd company of Drar's Rangers, bringing his army total to 1495).
If you now click 6. Turn 2: Splintered Shields and look to the top right of the picture, you can see Drar in his 2 company strong formation, NOT 3.
I agree that the GW people could and should take a little bit more care with the wording in the Rulebook. Surely it would have made more sense to word Legendary Formations as follows;
Drar's Hunters 130pts + 35pts per extra company (and all other Legendary Formations likewise).
If anyone thinks I'm wrong, I suggest you keep following the above until the penny drops. After all, I'm sure the GW staff wouldn't be playing with the wrong rules.
I hope this little contribution helps clear up any further confusion.

Peregrin
25-10-2011, 16:40
Page 16 and 17 of the rulebook have army lists with legendary formations.

It is clear from those (as they have both Sharku's Hunters with Bows and Erkenbrand's Riders) that the initial value for a legendary formation does NOT include the cost of the first company.

I pointed this out at our gaming club and it pretty much stopped all discussion (and caused some people to have to recalculate their armies).

MOMUS
01-04-2016, 07:55