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View Full Version : Dueling fix...(maybe)



Jorgen_CAB
17-04-2009, 10:13
Ok, I just would like to take the oportunity to start a thread about Dueling and how I think it could be fixed, if it needs to?!?
In my experience, so far, is that it needs some additional thinking... see my problem description below...

Problem 1
Anyone with epic strike can become a killing machine only befitting Sauron or great monsters such as a Balrog. Killing whole regiments of troops, no matter who they are, just becasue there is a hero present. If there is no hero... no duel and hence no epic rampage through the unit?!?!

Problem 2
Avoiding Duels is more or less impossible, this I see as a potential problem because it is so absolute. I do understand that you need to kill spell casters and other such characters. But there must be at least a remote chance to avoid that confrontation for sake of game balance (in my opinion).

Solution for problem 1
Give every hero a strength value. A regular human captain and epic heroes should have a strength of 3-4 while 5 being the most powerful ones, such as Boromir and perhaps Aragorn, though I think Aragorn should not be such combat monster.
This would introduce an extra layer of tactic and flare to dueling skills. Sauron with his Epic strength of 10 could cut swaths of enemy troops while a Hasharin assassin (strength 1 and high fight skill) would be excellent at killing characters but hardly kill anything else.
When you hit (as with artillery or spells) they are not automatic but you roll against the troops defense. Heroes such as Ring wraiths would also be able to use their Spirit Grasp skill to roll against Courage instead of defense. I would also suggest a +1 on the to hit roll, otherwise I think it will not be lethal enough. Or at least some heroes should have that as an ability, such as monsters.

Solution for problem 2
Let the challenged character spend one might point and avoid the challenge on a 4+, just like magic... I really think this would improve (and fit) the game because you could avoid certain death but quickly run out of might. Spell casters usually have very low Might pools as well.
Make it possible to issue a duel whether there is a hero present or not. You duel the highest ranking member of the unit and simply roll to see how many extra soldier you would kill while doing so... that would make this more transparent. It is not logical that you can rampage through a unit when there is a weak spell caster but not when there is no one at all, there is always someone in command, even if abstracted into the stats of a formation or company.

Note
Why on earth doesn't Gandalf has the Epic Strike ability, he did slay a Balrog in a duel... could he really do that in the game!?!?!?

Emissary
17-04-2009, 11:58
I really don't understand why it's such a big deal. It is easily avoidable. You rotate calling out who will declare a heroic action and put them into a queue. Once the queue is done, then you start to resolve them in order. So if your opponent calls out a heroic action then you do it too with your hero. Epic strike has to be done before the hero does heroic duel to get the benefit.

For example if I have Gothmog and you have a gondor captain and I plan on doing the epic strike+heroic duel we'll start the phase and I'll declare that I want to do an heroic/epic action. Then you do it too with your captain, then I'll have to do it again with Gothmog. Epic actions either happen in the start of the phase as part of the heroic action queue or when the formation is ready to act. Since heroic dueling happens before any formations act (unless they have a heroic fight) he can't just use it when the heroic duel starts. Also, you roll off to see who is going to do their first heroic/epic action, so it's possible you get to go first, can call the heroic fight and can seperate the formations before the epic strike happens and waste the opposing hero's might or go second, suffer the extra hits from epic strike but avoid the heroic duel from heroic fight and still waste that might.

Either way, the counter is heroic duel is heroic fight. You can always get it in before the first called epic strike and heroic duel. If you win or lose the end result is that it will separate the formations and cause the duel to not happen since the formations are not longer touching.

takaetun
17-04-2009, 12:26
Gandalf slew the balrog because he was immune to its fire because of the ring he wears, not due to any skills he had.

I have no issue with the way duels work now. They're meant to be fast things, not intricate representations of varying levels of skill. Heroes are heroic, they're good at doing great deeds, not reacting to or surviving them - see Gil-Galad, and, oh, I don't know, Sauron (I'm in the "He had physical form in the Third Age, bite me" camp). Giving heroes a strength value to decrease their effectiveness against normal units makes no sense, because it makes them simply better fighters, not heroic ones. Likewise, Isildur was an appalling waste of flesh whose sole claim to fame is hacking off a bad dude's fingers - and yet he ended Sauron. I see no problem with a Hobbit Civic Leader killing Saruman.

Jorgen_CAB
17-04-2009, 12:50
Either way, the counter is heroic duel is heroic fight. You can always get it in before the first called epic strike and heroic duel. If you win or lose the end result is that it will separate the formations and cause the duel to not happen since the formations are not longer touching.
I would be happy if that were true, but I have been told that Heroic Fights is not resulved directly but "Before Combat" and that any Duels are fought before combat occurs.

I interpreted the rules just as you obviously do... I also believe this to be true, but is it really?


Gandalf slew the balrog because he was immune to its fire because of the ring he wears, not due to any skills he had.
I really would disagree with skill having nothing to do with it... but that is you interpretation and I certainly do not agree with that assessment.


I have no issue with the way duels work now. They're meant to be fast things, not intricate representations of varying levels of skill. Heroes are heroic, they're good at doing great deeds, not reacting to or surviving them - see Gil-Galad, and, oh, I don't know, Sauron (I'm in the "He had physical form in the Third Age, bite me" camp). Giving heroes a strength value to decrease their effectiveness against normal units makes no sense, because it makes them simply better fighters, not heroic ones. Likewise, Isildur was an appalling waste of flesh whose sole claim to fame is hacking off a bad dude's fingers - and yet he ended Sauron. I see no problem with a Hobbit Civic Leader killing Saruman.
Once again, I certainly do not agree with you in most of your points. Certainly a Hobbit Civic leader could kill Saruman, they certainly can in the game too.
No way could Gimli or any other hero slay whole formations of companies by themselves. In the book they killed maybe 30-50 people in one battle... and even that was stretching it I think. I would imagine a company to be at least a couple of hundred persons... So if we (just for the sake of the argument) take into account those that flee as well they could eliminate one company maybe.
While I think a Dragon or Ringwraith on a Fellbeast or a Ballrog could slay a formation single handed, that I see no problem with. I just disagree with the level of heroism you mention.
Heroes have a good enough effect on the combat as it is in my opinion.

takaetun
17-04-2009, 13:17
No way could Gimli or any other hero slay whole formations of companies by themselves. In the book they killed maybe 30-50 people in one battle... and even that was stretching it I think. I would imagine a company to be at least a couple of hundred persons...
"Only" 30-50? Only? You do realise how hard it is to kill one trained fighter, right? Eight to sixteen dead fighters is fairly impressive.

I'd actually consider a company to be eight people, because thats what it is. This isn't an abstract concept here, this is why the game was developed. A clash of a couple of hundred men was fairly significant, considering the resources it took to maintain a body of troops (historically). A company is eight men, not hundreds. In that case, Gimli could tear through them with heroic ease.

The phrasing I believe is that combat follows on as normal from a duel, so I don't believe a Heroic Fight counters a duel.

Jorgen_CAB
17-04-2009, 13:25
"Only" 30-50? Only? You do realise how hard it is to kill one trained fighter, right? Eight to sixteen dead fighters is fairly impressive.
Sure that is massive, and surely worthy of Epic heroes, I don't argue that.


I'd actually consider a company to be eight people, because thats what it is. This isn't an abstract concept here, this is why the game was developed. A clash of a couple of hundred men was fairly significant, considering the resources it took to maintain a body of troops (historically). A company is eight men, not hundreds. In that case, Gimli could tear through them with heroic ease.
No... I'm pretty sure that you are completely wrong here... The game is an abstraction of large battles and big warfare. One company would certainly be equivalent of at least a hundred men. Maybe in the range of 50 for cavalry and 100 for infantry... that is the common standard in historical war games if you ever play those. Who incidentally are very similar to this game. This is not a skirmish game!
A troll would perhaps be 5 trolls and a dragon is just that... a dragon. In the view that each company is eight men, I certainly understand you viewpoint on duels

The standard in other games of this scale each unit would be about 350-650 men and cavalry would be roughly half or little less, that seems to fit very well with the size of the formations in this game.

Emissary
17-04-2009, 13:28
I would be happy if that were true, but I have been told that Heroic Fights is not resulved directly but "Before Combat" and that any Duels are fought before combat occurs.

I interpreted the rules just as you obviously do... I also believe this to be true, but is it really?

If you were told that you were told wrong. I put a thread up in the general discussion phase. Both heroic fights and heroic duels happen "at the start of the fight phase" so I don't see why anyone would say that one always happens before the other regardless of the heroic action queue.

takaetun
17-04-2009, 13:32
Cite your source.

Would it be the numerous White Dwarf and GW references to being able to field hundreds of men? An act you can literally do? Because I've never seen a single reference to that kind of abstraction in any published literature.

You also seem to be suggesting that as a Troll represents five trolls, then a Kings Champion represents give Kings Champions, which is vastly problematic right there. More so is the "a troll is five trolls, but a dragon is a dragon". Why? Because its a dragon? Not good enough. Dragons and Balrogs aren't unique beings, and, as was (repeatedly) said to me recently, if you can't apply your ruling evenly, your ruling cannot be applied.

Jorgen_CAB
17-04-2009, 13:35
Cite your source.

Would it be the numerous White Dwarf and GW references to being able to field hundreds of men? An act you can literally do? Because I've never seen a single reference to that kind of abstraction in any published literature.

You also seem to be suggesting that as a Troll represents five trolls, then a Kings Champion represents give Kings Champions, which is vastly problematic right there. More so is the "a troll is five trolls, but a dragon is a dragon". Why? Because its a dragon? Not good enough. Dragons and Balrogs aren't unique beings, and, as was (repeatedly) said to me recently, if you can't apply your ruling evenly, your ruling cannot be applied.

I'm not going to argue semantics with you... it has not been stated one way or another. I read from the text that the rules are there to create large battles, not battles between a skirmish force (very oddly composed I might add at that) of say a hundred or so individuals. That I simply do not believe.

Emissary
17-04-2009, 13:36
If 1 guy is one guy or 1 guy is 100 guys it doesn't matter. It's up to how each person wishes to see it. It's a game not a war simulation.

Jorgen_CAB
17-04-2009, 13:37
If you were told that you were told wrong. I put a thread up in the general discussion phase. Both heroic fights and heroic duels happen "at the start of the fight phase" so I don't see why anyone would say that one always happens before the other regardless of the heroic action queue.

Ok, would be nice to clear up. It certainly would make things more stremlined and fix some things that I was hanged up on... :)

Sarah S
17-04-2009, 14:52
Heroic Fights do not occur at the start of the phase.

They must be initiated by the hero at the start of the phase like any other Heroic Action, but all they do is make it so that the Hero's fight be resolved first in the order of combats, not that it be resolved immediately.


If a Hero declares a Heroic Fight at the start of the Fight phase, the combat that his formation is involved in is worked out before other combats that turn.
p.66

So Heroic Duels still go before the resolution of Heroic Fights, since they happen immediately at the start of the phase.

Axis
17-04-2009, 14:54
My only problem with duels is that a lot of the time not only do you kill the hero you duel but you massacre half his formation too. Today I used epic strike and followed it up with heroic duel from Isildur against Saruman. I killed Saruman which i see no problem with but i also kill like 7 uruk-hai. The fact that i then get to use his fight value again makes it just too much.

Maybe just say that the a hero in a heroic duel can't contribute his fight value to the fight afterwards but keep the rest the same. This tones it down a bit but not too much.

Sarah S
17-04-2009, 14:57
I have no problem with duels.

Heroes are expensive. Troops are cheap.

Emissary
17-04-2009, 15:35
This probably should just be closed and moved to the thread in the general section.

Anyway


If a Hero declares a Heroic Fight at the start of the Fight phase, the combat that his formation is involved in is worked out before other combats that turn.
p.66

So Heroic Duels still go before the resolution of Heroic Fights, since they happen immediately at the start of the phase.

Heroic duels don't say anything about them happening immediately at the start of the phase. They're declared then but they enter the heroic actions queue. The entire heroic actions queue is just there for things to be resolved before the normal priority system kicks in. I understand that what you're thinking is that the heroic fight is happening at the start of the normal priority fights no matter the priority order but that isn't what the rules and examples on p66 are saying to me. To me anything done in the heroic actions part of a phase is resolved then and in order of how they're declared before anything hits the priority part of the phase.

Jorgen_CAB
18-04-2009, 09:21
I think the thread about Heroic Fight in the general forum fixes most of these problems, so please look there for further discussions...