PDA

View Full Version : How to beat: 21 night goblin fanatics backed up by 4 mages and 8 bolt trowers



Peregijn
19-04-2009, 21:00
after our first battle of this day my friend and I decided to play some expirimental lists.
nothing fancie, i wanted to try my new chaos knights and hell cannon and some tacktis i read someweher around here
and he had a list, witch he enshurd me he would lose with.

wel afther the deploymand fase i faced 7 units of nightgoblins, 8 bolttrowers and 4 mages (the mages are a standert for him so i had my own magic to counter it)

i knew him wel enof (if he is posting directly onder me: of his 60 or so wins more than 20 he got from defeating me) that his nightgoblins would be maxed out with fanatics but because i din't realy care i just surged forwards...

in my first turn i surged over the tabel towards him feeling al powerfull with my mighty chaos army of doom.
wel the hell cannon jus felt 1 inch shord (scater dice never works in my favor).
his turn: 8 bolts flying towards my hell canon completly dystroing it.

and than my next turn: first charge first fannatics come out... like al nine of them, not to worry i can survive (5 knigts and one chaos lord)
9 fanaticks later: he dystroyd the unit i was charging and dystroyd all but one chaos knight and leaving my lord with 1 wound left...

and afther that fanatics just keep koming out whil gaint bolts flew evrywhere whil i lost agan.....


my question is a simple one: how to counter this??? not on;y the fanatics but also the 8 bolt trowers...

Mozzamanx
19-04-2009, 21:03
A single flying unit ought to do it.

Oo goody, i lost 100pts of sacrificial flyer, have fun while your entire unit gets shredded by rogue Fanatics.

I play Tomb Kings, so perhaps I'm biased, but this would really be a cakewalk. A unit of Carrion, or even a character wearing the Cloak, should do the job marvellously. Even easier since I can propel myself via Incantations.

WarlockOMork
19-04-2009, 21:08
t wasnt that much, you only faced a mere 18 fanatics dangit. :D (was nothing left to draw the rest out :/)

also a unit flying chaos warriors FTW? :)

meh, and like how often am i going to use that list, i only used it because i knew you wouldnt expect it :)
that and you said make something FUN/Experimental. i decided goblin mages and that many fanatics could be fun x) and definitly experimental.
i usualy bring a lot less :p. (3 beeing the usual)

Edit: off to go updating my wins. and only 14 of those wins are against you :P. (pre 7th)

another Edit: also didnt ensure you that i would lose, i said i didnt expect to win with it :) (but against all expectations did.. )

oh and my dear dyslectic (and non-english) friend, please run it trough a spell check. might make it easyer to read.

ps:Hard to kill yourself with fanatics if you can gork em in the right direction as well :p
or when anything that tries to get across gets pelted with bolts in their flanks. (includes warhounds)
(4 throwers on either side) (and a hellcannon is a large targets yay. D3 Wounds double yay)

Shamfrit
19-04-2009, 21:35
Ram a unit of Warhounds over the board; watch them release hordes of fanatics whilst you sit back and blast him with Hellcannons.

Laugh as he dies on his own fanatics, then swoop in for the kill.

Peregijn
19-04-2009, 21:47
wel... i tryed that... but the hell cannon cant survive 8 bolt trowers...

Shamfrit
19-04-2009, 21:51
It should do, since they're hitting on 5's; have to randomise between the crew and the machine, need 4's to wound and you have 5 wounds...if you're losing the cannon before Turn 3 you're in trouble regardless.

Flying/Steed of Slaanesh characters should be hitting a bolt thrower turn two with ease; an Exalted I'ved used countless times before that is the perfect War Machine hunter:

Exalted of Slaanesh
Steed of Slaanesh
Flail, Battle Standard Bearer
Golden Eye of Tzeentch, Enchanted Shield, Favour of the Gods

Peregijn
19-04-2009, 21:54
and he wouldn't be killed of by fanatics before he reached the bolt trowers?
ill try him nect time... will fofeit my magical defence than i think...
make more fast moving hard hitting things...

(and crap i forgot to randomise hits... and so did my oponent)

more advise is welcome

WarlockOMork
19-04-2009, 21:56
first off its a large target. over half range. bonus balances vs penalty. Bs3 = 4's to hit.
also it doesnt randomize like normal warmachines, it has 1-4 doomcannon, 5-6 crew.

meh i had only used 3 so far, (of wich 1 would on avarage have hit the crew instead)
would've had 5 left for the rest then ^^.
Might have 5 wounds, but a bolt throwers also deals D3.
would probaly still make it quite dead,...

nice odds.

ps: doesnt fit logicaly to me tho, i wouldnt even have been able to see the crew, how the hell would i've hit it em.
but then again GW isnt known for its logic.
and about forgetting things, you also forgot your LD test, :p (for the cannon)

and before you go all out tactics wise, this inmo wanst a really serious game.
else i would've brought a more competetive list. and im sure so would he. he's just anoyed by me winning with something that silly x)

MasterSparks
19-04-2009, 22:45
Exalted of Slaanesh
Steed of Slaanesh
Flail, Battle Standard Bearer
Golden Eye of Tzeentch, Enchanted Shield, Favour of the Gods

When using this guy to take out goblin bolt throwers and you're worried about fanatics, simply take out the golden eye and favour and instead give him the armour of Morrslieb. He'll be a bit more vulnerable to magical missiles but you should be able to keep him safe for that one turn where he's getting into position. :)

Edit: It'd also force you to drop the enchanted shield though..

sulla
19-04-2009, 22:47
Sounds like a normal 'Orc & Goblin' army to me. Sometimes led from the back by Gorbad and his dispel dice generator unit.

Draw out the fanatics as early as possible and shoot the ones that come your way. MSU for your shooting units (to target as many fanatics as possible), bigger ones for your combat units.

Also, start playing games where you must have the correct models for each unit... helps weed out broken army builds.

WarlockOMork
19-04-2009, 22:54
Would hardly call 4 goblin shamans normal these days. :)
mighty fun tho.

and shooting chaos warriors?

and lastly been playing games like that for ages, got about 10.000+ points of goblins. can pick what ever i like :D

sulla
20-04-2009, 06:14
Would hardly call 4 goblin shamans normal these days. :)
mighty fun tho.

and shooting chaos warriors?

Marauder horse with axes, discrider mages for example.

And yeah, maybe not goblin mages, I usually face a mix of goblin and orc ones.

But as chaos, you could probably just ride a chariot or 3 though thye storm and come out the other side... or knights what with the weakened fanatics these days.

Declare a charge with something sacrificial and chariots in the same turn. The sacrificial thing will get wiped out and the chariots will probably only have to ride through a single fanatic each before hitting and beating their target units.

Tadite
20-04-2009, 06:24
A single flying unit ought to do it.

Oo goody, i lost 100pts of sacrificial flyer, have fun while your entire unit gets shredded by rogue Fanatics.


Sounds about right. I've found a few units of dogs work just as well .:)

Heck if I played against this army I would just ignore it.... Most likely they would end up killing enough pts of their own army for me to win...

Peregijn
20-04-2009, 08:28
Also, start playing games where you must have the correct models for each unit... helps weed out broken army builds.

we have the correct models for our games, ad least my oponent had.
i did use some models to fill up my units but thats al.
if some one has a lot of one thing dont asume that they dont have the models for it.

a small sumary: eather you ignore them completly and just hope they will kill more of there own than they kill of you, or trow as many cheap ass units on the board as you can. charge the bolt trowers with a herow so he can kill one ad the time (that takes more dan 4 turns to kill them all, and thats if they al stand togeter)

some of the given advise yust sounds a littel bit to gambling to me, but hey, fanatics are one big gamble any way.

and for the guy who said that fanatics are weak and that you can yust race your knights over them... wel i did that... got me 10d6 str5 armor piercing hits.. no units of knigths survive that. (and yes there wher units behinde the firts one who yust pused there fanatics true the unit infront of him to get to my knights... oh wel i am just still shocked i guess...

Ill get you next time

WarlockOMork
20-04-2009, 09:47
Sounds about right. I've found a few units of dogs work just as well .:)

Heck if I played against this army I would just ignore it.... Most likely they would end up killing enough pts of their own army for me to win...

jup but this army wasnt fighting you, it was for fighting him,

as i stated before, this build was just something random and fun.
not something i normaly use. a single use thing, at least for now....

make all the tactics you want you wont see em any time soon..

well untill he doesnt expect it to happen again :D.
(wich is a great way to counter, counter tactic builds)

ps: didnt kill a single model/unit of myself that i didnt plan to kill. Go Gork. (or else just throw em over the table edge :) (everyone knows the world ends there) )

let me conclude with, its always easyer to talk a game then to play it :D
i can just as easely say...
while you stood there ignoring it, i would've shot you enough to win. with, Hails of bolts(8 Chukka's), gorked fanatics, and other spells, that arent ignoring you. if all your sending is the dogs they would'nt even have made it across.
(factoring in the units is fine, and having a list that can counter it even then doesnt secure victory, as you forgot to add in the person that played it)

Instead roll the dice, play the game and see what happens.

Braad
20-04-2009, 10:09
That's quite a mean army.
I suggest you just take it and die, as there is none able to stop the WAAAGH!

;)

therisnosaurus
20-04-2009, 10:38
here's my leet strat:

1) buy warhounds
2) Demon prince with diabolic splendour
3) ye-olde rest of army

turn 1) Screen everything with warhounds. Run warhounds forward, run demon prince behind hill
turn 2) run warhounds into fanatics. Warhounds die, you are happy. Continue running demon prince forward behind terrain
turn 3) fly demon prince slap bang in the middle of the NG army, where fanatics have been cleared. not a large target, so his units will block LOS to the bolt throwers, and giggle as he makes terror tests at -1 with wizard led night goblins (ld 4-5 anyone?)
turn 4) use surviving chaos hounds to charge fleeing goblins. continue using DP to terror bomb anything that looks at him funny.


Obviously, if you lose the DP you're a little screwed, so hide him behind terrain and
use the mark of nurgle to make him harder to hit with a BT. You should only put him down near goblin units the chaos hounds have 'mineswept'. Try not to charge units you're not guaranteed to beat, but if you can charge a unit and make panic tests start happening, this is what will destroy his army.

If you really want to be a bit of a dick, get a bunch of big units of marauders or- better- naked marauder horsemen, and stick an exalted BSB with the banner of the gods in there. Terror bomb ad nauseum. (note- if you charge from outside 8" and he flees from the charge because you outnumber and cause terror, he loses his fanatics outright)

Shiodome
20-04-2009, 11:04
oh and my dear dyslectic (and non-english) friend, please run it trough a spell check. might make it easyer to read.


made me laugh :>

anyway, don't WoC get really cheap hounds or something?

changer of fate
20-04-2009, 11:22
brake his models, give him a evil smile and run away..........

Makarion
20-04-2009, 11:32
Instead of the daemon prince you could try Valkia. Deploy her at the start of the game inside a unit so she's safe from the boltthrowers, then fly her out as desired to "discover" the fanatics and deal with the artillery - and cause havoc by landing behind his units with her Terror :).

Chicago Slim
20-04-2009, 11:59
Problem is, Valkia will be taking something like 7d6 hits at S5 before she gets into Terror range... (I had a similar thought about Terror, but realized this problem with it...)

Storak
20-04-2009, 12:00
jup but this army wasnt fighting you, it was for fighting him,

as i stated before, this build was just something random and fun.
not something i normaly use. a single use thing, at least for now....

make all the tactics you want you wont see em any time soon..

well untill he doesnt expect it to happen again :D.
(wich is a great way to counter, counter tactic builds)

ps: didnt kill a single model/unit of myself that i didnt plan to kill. Go Gork. (or else just throw em over the table edge :) (everyone knows the world ends there) )

let me conclude with, its always easyer to talk a game then to play it :D
i can just as easely say...
while you stood there ignoring it, i would've shot you enough to win. with, Hails of bolts(8 Chukka's), gorked fanatics, and other spells, that arent ignoring you. if all your sending is the dogs they would'nt even have made it across.
(factoring in the units is fine, and having a list that can counter it even then doesnt secure victory, as you forgot to add in the person that played it)

Instead roll the dice, play the game and see what happens.

hm.

as others have said, a 3 units of hounds and/or marauder cav would easily control the fanatic part of that list.

and i don t know in what environment you are playing, but i must say that i have a completely different approach to the game.

faced with a seriously suboptimal WoC list and an obviously not too experienced opponent, you decide to use a chaotic system of extreme armies.

i think the game takes too much time for such an approach. it is ok, against an opponent, whom you cant beat. but as a general approach, i think it is pretty bad.

over here, we are trying to have fun together...

WarlockOMork
20-04-2009, 12:08
hm.

as others have said, a 3 units of hounds and/or marauder cav would easily control the fanatic part of that list.

others can say what they want,
but 8 bolt throwers would easely control the 3 units of hounds/marauders part of that list.
(if not :wtf:, but then im still quite sure, backed by a magic missile or two it would)
Edit: lol or as urgat said, by the first few fanatics.

and i don t know in what environment you are playing, but i must say that i have a completely different approach to the game.

you have a diffrent approach to the game then actualy playing it?,
or do you really just set up, look at board, then look at the other player, and go something like i win. and wander off (see my previous post)

faced with a seriously suboptimal WoC list and an obviously not too experienced opponent, you decide to use a chaotic system of extreme armies.

lol, "obviously un experienced" he's been playing for quite some years.
i decided to use something to that might be fun. (and indeed it was quite hillareous)
also it was inmo a seriously sub optimal Greenskin list(to random). (except for the Boltthrowers, gotta love those.)


i think the game takes too much time for such an approach. it is ok, against an opponent, whom you cant beat. but as a general approach, i think it is pretty bad.

so in summarise, The: I think it takes to much time to actualy play the game approach? :D
(and actualy it took a whole lot less time then with my balanced out less-funny tourny list)

and also think its better to only use a completly random and mostly luck dependant list vs very good people? so i should bring this to a tourny or something? :wtf:


over here, we are trying to have fun together...


we had great fun to, feel free to ask him, :)
as i said i think he's just slightly upset he lost to something that silly.

Urgat
20-04-2009, 12:32
hm.

as others have said, a 3 units of hounds and/or marauder cav would easily control the fanatic part of that list.

Assuming they don't get destroyed or panicked by the release of the first 9 fanatics, that is. Only 12 to go then xD

Braad
20-04-2009, 13:44
I once had a small unit of skinks triggering all 9 fanatics from 3 units, and even then they were not dead nor running... But I'm just bad at rolling 8 or higher on the fanatics release distance.

Makarion
20-04-2009, 18:10
Would a marauder unit appearing behind the lines due to the special character that lets them infiltrate work? Sure, they will die to a man, but field them about 10 wide and you should catch pretty much all the fanatics to be released. And once they are behind his lines, he's caught behind his own loons and your cavalry.

WarlockOMork
20-04-2009, 18:15
hm.. i like that one,

but sadly i dont think it would've worked this time.

there wasnt any space left to enter from.

(that and i often tend to block some of my table edges, just in case)
(altough it wasnt needed this time, as there was no space left :) )


he should write it down tho, for when we play with normal (non silly) lists.
then there is some space(even tough i tend to block sides often, as i still got plenty of units :)) and he can possibly with some effort ruin my normal 3 fanatic unit. or even wreck some warmachines.

Shamfrit
20-04-2009, 18:34
21 fanatics is...525 points.

In 7 units costing at least...

420.

So, without command, nets and the like, you've spend 975 on 7 units of utter jank with a one trick wonder approach to ripping your own army to pieces.

Hounds move 14, release fanatics if you're on the line first turn, you're in a heap of trouble from there.

8 Bolt Throwers are single shot, and arn't accurate, and cant' fire everywhere on the board.

I would have no trouble at all facing this list, I'd relish it; Comet of Cassandora does terrible things to these sorts of lists, Drain Life and Cleansing Flare to boot.

Kerill
20-04-2009, 18:36
It's a dirty list against WOC and no mistake. My only masacre loss this edition with WOC has been to greenskins.

Depending on the list, dogs will never get close enough to release the fanatics against a decent list led by a competent general(chariots, light cavalry etc.) Having said that a big marauder unit can simply march in there and do very well if it has a half decent combat character. Will lose eventually but will release the bulk of the fanatics so the rest of the army can go in.

That backed up by lots of cheap units for hunting stuff down and buboes/transmogrification for sniping the 4 mages.

Malorian
20-04-2009, 18:44
Damn orc power-gamers...



;)

WarlockOMork
20-04-2009, 18:48
21 fanatics is...525 points.

In 7 units costing at least...

420.

So, without command, nets and the like, you've spend 975 on 7 units of utter jank with a one trick wonder approach to ripping your own army to pieces.

Hounds move 14, release fanatics if you're on the line first turn, you're in a heap of trouble from there.

nope i wasnt on the first line, most where as far back as possible. (
(some front liners had both nets and a banner., and actualy defeated some hounds in CC i recall :p) (and as urgat stated if you get that far, hounds are dead, and i've probaly got 12+ fanatics left :)

8 Bolt Throwers are single shot, and arn't accurate, and cant' fire everywhere on the board.

dont have to your most likely not gonna have everything previously mentioned either. (Ie 2 doom cannons, 3 hounds, 3 fast cav, flying lords/chars)(unless you expected this list, in wich case i wouldnt have run it)

I would have no trouble at all facing this list, I'd relish it; Comet of Cassandora does terrible things to these sorts of lists, Drain Life and Cleansing Flare to boot.

and well yes that was the point.
did i mention it was a rubbish list? :p it was for fun. the only one that disputed it was storak.(edit: well also kerill now)

Edit: (hm.. ok im starting to doubt myself now, maybe it was an OP greenskin list, but afaik greenskins cant do OP :p,
and i personaly feel it was quite underpowered(, to luck dependant))



(tho inmo commet doesnt work, ore then enough mcounter magic and all)
(unless you also bring 4 mages wich even more says Counter list to me,
wich i dont see happening if i only field it when you dont expect it :) )


didnt claim it was some uber list,
and i also said somewhere way way up there before the match that i didnt think it'd win.

just said some tactics you claimed in and in hindsight probaly wouldnt have worked.

heck i sure as hell wouldnt bring it if i really wanted to win :)

Urgat
20-04-2009, 18:49
Would a marauder unit appearing behind the lines due to the special character that lets them infiltrate work? Sure, they will die to a man, but field them about 10 wide and you should catch pretty much all the fanatics to be released. And once they are behind his lines, he's caught behind his own loons and your cavalry.

That's assuming he's idiotic enough to send all his fanatics back, though. Remember one does decide the direction where they're released. If that were to ever happen to me (considering I basically don't field fanatics anymore, well...), I'd send a handul back, and the rest on the sieds to die off in trees or something.

Malorian
20-04-2009, 18:51
Best way to deal with this list:

-See what army you are up against
-When placing terrain you put a large forest in each side of the board*
-Place your entire army in the forest
-Wait for a tie
*This assumes you do terrain like how the book tells you to.

After a few times your opponents won't bother with these silly lists any more.

WarlockOMork
20-04-2009, 18:57
i bring a diffrent list each time :(. (some have as little as 1 fanatic)(tho i always bring one heyr just to damn funny)

oh Ps: i ended up with all the forests on my side.
(on the concept it would probaly hinder me, and kill fanatics.
didnt happen tho the only ones that died due to scenery where the ones volentarely thrown off the table.)
(as per urgats tacts when he finaly did get something behind me (some left overs), they died due to a single Fanatic. had two left (off the table they go) (either that or in the direction of another fanatic to close to my lines, so i can kill em both in one go) )

and is it that overpowered? (can greenskins actualy do OP :p)

(for more on this see my previous post last section after the qoute)

Storak
20-04-2009, 19:29
and well yes that was the point.
did i mention it was a rubbish list? :p it was for fun. the only one that disputed it was storak.(edit: well also kerill now)

Edit: (hm.. ok im starting to doubt myself now, maybe it was an OP greenskin list, but afaik greenskins cant do OP :p,
and i personaly feel it was quite underpowered(, to luck dependant))



(tho inmo commet doesnt work, ore then enough mcounter magic and all)
(unless you also bring 4 mages wich even more says Counter list to me,
wich i dont see happening if i only field it when you dont expect it :) )


didnt claim it was some uber list,
and i also said somewhere way way up there before the match that i didnt think it'd win.

just said some tactics you claimed in and in hindsight probaly wouldnt have worked.

heck i sure as hell wouldnt bring it if i really wanted to win :)

one trick ponies are NOT overpowered.

i just wouldn t want to waste an evening, playing a fluffy list against such nonsense. (flying Tzeentch vs 3 DD ius another example of a useless game..)and while playing point denial may teach you a lesson, it is some more waste of time.

most serious WoC list would bring maximum magic anyway.

WarlockOMork
20-04-2009, 19:53
hence it wasnt supposed to be a serious game :p.

did you miss the about 4+ times repeating of that beeing said? :)

and naah's it wouldnt teach me a lesson, as i'd probaly still win. with you just trying to hide and me shooting the odd unit :p
(they dont all fit behind em tree's :D)

Urgat
20-04-2009, 21:06
and is it that overpowered? (can greenskins actualy do OP :p)

(for more on this see my previous post last section after the qoute)

To be honest, I don't know if 8 spear chukkas are overpowered or not, but I'm not sure I'd qualify that as fun.

Shamfrit
20-04-2009, 21:19
I bring a Slann and a Skink Priest on an Engine of the Gods; the same dice but less casting potential than those 4 Level 2's to some degree.

Urgat is right. It's not overpowered, but it's boring as hell to play or to face.

Mainly because Squig Hoppers are much more fun :D

Peregijn
20-04-2009, 22:11
we had great fun to, feel free to ask him, :)
as i said i think he's just slightly upset he lost to something that silly.


it was indeed a verry fun game experiancce... i was already happy that i could do as this time... old fanatisc where better.
but after the game i felt realy emty... i didn't stand a chance... even against goblins with chain balls...

ah wel, ceep on discussing this i like to read al the difrent aproches and tackticks. don't let warlOcmorck get to yah but remeber we both played expirimental unblanced lists and the questian was how would you deal with this set up if it was a serieus game.

edit: where can i find a fast englisch speling correct my word doesn't sem to have and and i lost my windows cd somewher in the great pille of junk that is caled my room

WarlockOMork
20-04-2009, 22:17
yeah they are still damn good, even under their new rules. wouldnt have expected that.

and as in if you used a more or less normal WoC (tourny) list (right?), (not simply an exact counter list,) and you encountered this silly player who brought something that odd to it (unlikely event. :p considering how silly it is.)

and specificaly @ Shamfit: Yeah Squig hoppers are awsome. (especialy under the current rules)


how about next time we make a silly battle, switch lists before the match? might make the game even more amusing. :)

Ps: just couldnt resist.

Damn orc power-gamers...


;)


inmo the best post of this thread so far :D
meet the new deamons? ;)

Spirit
20-04-2009, 23:18
Havent read the entire thread but i would use 1 unit of spirit hosts and some magic defense.

All the fanatics get released turn 2/3 and cause more annoyance to the gobbos than me, then i can just fight their army with a 500 point advantage (cost of all the useless fanatics xD)

Alternatively, 2 or 3 throw away units of m8/9 fast cavalry. 200 ish points to release 500 points of fanatics. Sounds like a good deal to me.

Terradons would work if there is a forest anywhere near the gobbos.

WarlockOMork
20-04-2009, 23:21
yeah those ghosts are good ones vs fanatics :).

but it was about how to do so with WoC (Warriors of Chaos)

any vamp player facing this would be granted an auto win by me :D.
(lol at summoning a unit of zombies in the middle of em with a Gazilion powerdice)

Edit: then again... just for the fun of it i'd try, but i dont see it happening :)

Spirit
20-04-2009, 23:40
yeah those ghosts are good ones vs fanatics :).

but it was about how to do so with WoC (Warriors of Chaos)

any vamp player facing this would be granted an auto win by me :D.
(lol at summoning a unit of zombies in the middle of em with a Gazilion powerdice)

Edit: then again... just for the fun of it i'd try, but i dont see it happening :)

With WoC use my second suggestion, 3 units of (5 point?) war dogs. 3 gobbos mages wont do enough, the 8 bolt throwers will only kill 4 per turn (and thats short range, which wont usually be the case)

sulla
21-04-2009, 00:32
Heh, trolls! How many rolls on the eye of the gods table do you want?

AMWOOD co
21-04-2009, 12:46
That's good. Trolls. I like that. How many Regen saves are you taking? When are you running out of trolls? Yes it could work, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

I've used a list like this and plan on doing so again (I only have 18 fanatics and 6 bolt throwers though), but I throw in Orc characters leading the gobbos. An Orc shaman lord casting WAAAGH! at just the right time means lots more fanatic hits (360 line of sight and they move into the enemy again). It does have the disadvantage of de-crewing my warmachines, but by turn 3 or 4 when I use WAAAGH!, they've already done their thing.

Jind_Singh
22-04-2009, 06:37
the biggest things WoC have going for them:

1) 5 strong units of warhounds
2) 5 strong units of marad. on horse with throwing axes, maybe a musician.

Use the hounds (at least 4 units needed per army) as screens to draw out anything you dont like, or act as screesns to your expensive knights.

Use the mara. horse to throw axes - you'll always hit on 5+ with str 4! - at the pesky fanatics.

Sit back and wait for a clear avenue of attack throw the fanatics.

A level 4 sorc lord of Tzeentch on a disc is DEADLY! Give him some lovely upgrades and you'll cause lots of pain to the other side! Accompany him with a lvl 2 to add more pain.

Shame about the hell cannon - against an opponent with that much artillary (inc Empire, Dwarf,. etc) drop the cannon and take the all important SECOND unit of knights!!!
Always, always try to run the hard hitters of your army in pairs - so for Orcs take 2 giants, or WoC take 3 knight units.

A great list I seen at the local place I game is:

3 units knights
2-3 units of mara horse
3-4 units of hounds

sorc lord Tzeentch on disc, and a level 2
2 heros, mounted

Somtimes 1-2 units are dropped to allow the hell cannons to come on (in pairs!!!)

Peregijn
22-04-2009, 08:01
A great list I seen at the local place I game is:

3 units knights
2-3 units of mara horse
3-4 units of hounds

sorc lord Tzeentch on disc, and a level 2
2 heros, mounted

Somtimes 1-2 units are dropped to allow the hell cannons to come on (in pairs!!!)

you do know that yo need ad least 3 mara horse unites to fill up your core choise right?

and with only a 4thlvl and a second lvl you will get blast away in the magic fase.
this list of yours is a nice alround list with fast hard hitting troops (suppose you equip your maraouders with flails) but against 4 mages 8 boltrouwers and 21 fanatics, they would't make it.

2 hellcannons can make a diffrence because the first shot you take usualy lands a bit wide so you can ajust your guess for the second shot. maby ill try this one day...

Alathir
22-04-2009, 09:23
Call him a jerk and tell him to make a real army.

theunwantedbeing
22-04-2009, 09:28
Flamers of Tzeentch.
Furies followed by Screamers (to draw out the fanatics and then kill the war machine crews).

2 hellcannons.
He took 8 bolt throwers, nothing wrong with taking 2 hellcannons.

Another option is wraiths for VC and spirit host.
Suddenly those fanatics and bolt throwers just aren't an issue.

You can gunline with empire.
All crossbows and a heap of say...mortars.

Plenty of ways to build an army built around ruining his list for several armies.

WarlockOMork
22-04-2009, 09:52
plenty of ways to build a specific counter versus anything by anything.

the problem is it only gets used when you dont see it comming.

so you gotta have a tactic with your normal units to beat it.
not a counter list.


Ps: i do think the two hellcannons thing is always usefull vs greenskins tho. no mather what i bring.

and again VC dont belong in this thread it was brought for a Greenies Vs WoC fight.
wouldnt build an army like this vs undead that'd just be a bit pointless.

Cragum
22-04-2009, 10:56
i never understand why people think fanatics are so nasty to be honest with you as at the end of the day you most defiantly dont make your first throw and secondly after that thye are no longer your models really they are as halo would say... killed by the gods or something like that.

fanatics are something i know as i use them rather a smidge alot for the fun, a game randomiser. they can stop either line from moving they can kill themelves they could probably have a bosnian teaparty on my roof for all i care all i know is when writing tactics ffor beating fanatics their are barely any apart from if your using undead units such as spirit hosts and cairnwariths because they can land on them and kill them straight out no worries.

But apart from that you cant have tactics for a unit that doesnt know of the word. ive found in my past against armies of all kinds such as chaos, elves,brets ( plenty of brets), everything you could imagine apart from lizardmen that they are their to ruin everybodys day. and in the end a fanatic could even do only one kill. so best is just let them do what they want like a child with a gun.

Nicha11
22-04-2009, 11:04
i never understand why people think fanatics are so nasty

You've obviously never had a unit of knight utterly oblitterated by some, or lost half your ironbreakers in one turn.

What scares people is not what they probably will do, its what they might do.

Gork or Possibly Mork
22-04-2009, 11:11
You've obviously never had a unit of knight utterly oblitterated by some, or lost half your ironbreakers in one turn.

What scares people is not what they probably will do, its what they might do.

Exactly.


they can stop either line from moving

That happens for a reason and the reason is thier only 25pts of a 100 or so points of Danger.

Cragum
22-04-2009, 12:33
seee theres the word though.

'MIGHT' do.

no one can ever really be sure what they might do, believe me ive seen knights get nailed when i have used em. seen a unit of realm knights get wiped out before they got to fight and that was nasty as the two leaders were in that unit. but the problem is for orc and gobbo players is we dont get much stuff to have fun with where we know it wont prob die as easy.

so we get fanatics to play with. besides always best tactic is scare em away before they even get to fight then they dont actually fight.and dont get to throw so get something in there with a terror causing abilty and bingo bunch of gobbos running.

WarlockOMork
22-04-2009, 14:12
if you do that you'll have to charge and hope they dont pass their test.
only 30% or so chance i admit.

then if they dont make it. and flee you get a failed charge. wich lands you in the middle of the other fanatic carriers.

so hope your terror causer wasnt that expensive.

lastly if you plan to just plant em in front of em and cause terror.

terror doesnt take effect that way untill the start of the next turn :).
(and your terror range is shorter then the fanatic range)

still its a nice tactic if you dont have anything else. just a gamble.

but then again so are fanatics ^^

Milgram
24-04-2009, 08:38
I didn't read the whole article, someone probably brought it up already.

get a terror causing flyer. i.e. a demon prince and/or a standard bearer on disc with the gods tapestrythingie. then get into some nice position and charge the first nightgoblin unit. as the gneral has an impressive ld of 6, the goblins will probably flee. and if not - well, in the right position, you should only suffer once or twice from the fanatics. :)

however, if the goblins choose to flee, the fanatics inside the unit are lost. and as you are in the right position, you will redirect your charge into the next unit of goblins - provided they pass their panic test. and then they take the terror test. if played propperly, you should manage to stop the fanatics from even appearing.

I expect this to be a pure nightgoblin list + 8 throwers (normal goblins). of course if the general is a lvl 4 orc shaman, then it is ld8.

oh, and be sure to bring your dolly. :)

Urgat
24-04-2009, 08:53
You've obviously never had a unit of knight utterly oblitterated by some, or lost half your ironbreakers in one turn.

What scares people is not what they probably will do, its what they might do.

Well, now that they don't ignore saves, they're waaaay less likely to do that. Can't count how many times my WoC friend has just charged through them with barely a scratch.


so we get fanatics to play with. besides always best tactic is scare em away before they even get to fight then they dont actually fight.and dont get to throw so get something in there with a terror causing abilty and bingo bunch of gobbos running.

terror: 6". Fanatics: 8"
You might spot a flaw in your logic there :p


however, if the goblins choose to flee, the fanatics inside the unit are lost. and as you are in the right position, you will redirect your charge into the next unit of goblins - provided they pass their panic test. and then they take the terror test. if played propperly, you should manage to stop the fanatics from even appearing.



If Played properly? It's all dependent on luck. Charging means you HAVE to complete the charge. Let's assume all the goblins have 3 fanatics (we're talking about 21, so...), you WILL take the three in the face. Redirecting will result in the same result, you haver to complete the charge, so you will take the three fanatics of the other units. Don't think a sorcerer or a Dp would be very comfortable with that. And that's not even considering the likely fact that some of the fanatics won't go more than 3" away (my average release range for fanatics, btw >> well it does help in various cases actually), and then you get the death throws. I don't think any single mini would be comfortable with that :p

Storak
24-04-2009, 09:40
Well, now that they don't ignore saves, they're waaaay less likely to do that. Can't count how many times my WoC friend has just charged through them with barely a scratch.



terror: 6". Fanatics: 8"
You might spot a flaw in your logic there :p




If Played properly? It's all dependent on luck. Charging means you HAVE to complete the charge. Let's assume all the goblins have 3 fanatics (we're talking about 21, so...), you WILL take the three in the face. Redirecting will result in the same result, you haver to complete the charge, so you will take the three fanatics of the other units. Don't think a sorcerer or a Dp would be very comfortable with that. And that's not even considering the likely fact that some of the fanatics won't go more than 3" away (my average release range for fanatics, btw >> well it does help in various cases actually), and then you get the death throws. I don't think any single mini would be comfortable with that :p

i agree with your first two answers, but i am unconvinced by the last one.

when the big flyer (lets take a BT for example) declares the charge, the NG unit must test against terror. if it fails, it will run without releasing the fanatics.

if there is another NG unit in the way (and charge range), it will have to test for terror as well, and will flee without releasing fanatics if it fails. (extreme circumstances could allow this to happen to 3 units in total)

if the flyer charges a NG unit that doesn t fail the test (or fanatics released from other units nearby, that are not the target of the charge, but the flyer isn t moved at all before the tests are made), it will stop at 8 inch and take fanatic hits. 3 fanatics released will get 1.25 fanatics hitting or 4.4 S5 hits.

to a BT with armour this will cause 0.8 wounds on average. being a flyer, the BT will ignore all fanatics in the way, unless it is being forced to land on one. (and i would need to test whether a BT could avoid this by changing move direction away from the centre of the unit)

i think charging a NG unit (with fanatics) that is out of range of the generals Ld is a rather good plan. the danger for the BT is rather small, perhaps even if the fanatics are released from the other side and through his own unit.

Urgat
24-04-2009, 10:40
Well, as I said, it's all about luck. The terror test belongs there too. And I don't belive in math hammer, my dies ahve never followed that. My experience is that if I roll 6 times a dice, I won't get each result once. I'm fairly sure I'd roll a dice a million times, third of that would be ones :p (and in that particular case above, that'd help me, in fact).
Anyway, he was mentionning a demon prince of a sorcerer on a disk, not a blood thirster :p.
And for point... her... wan, twee, ... foor: it az to stop at 8", then it az to continew da charge froo da fanatiks, and derefore it teaks all of dem.
A unit that declares a charge has to complete it, as they say in the rules, the laws of momentum are harsh.

Anyway of course charging a unit of goblins with something that causes terror is a good plan, that just goes without saying :p You don't even really need to charge them, that would be my point actually, hence why I'm insisting on the fact that the charge ain't good. Just don't charge, it's less dangerous and probably just as effective.

Milgram
24-04-2009, 12:09
you WILL take the three in the face.

no. an average is that the demon prince w/o special protection will take 1.46 wounds from fanatics before he crushes into the unit. and this includes the chance of a fanatic rollin 2" and therefore hitting him twice. including the terror component we can go down to 0.41 wounds, when the general is not next to the unit or pandemonium is working.

he can only be hit on one circumstance on the charge: when the fanatics are released and roll 8+. every other situation results in you flying over the fanatic. in case of 2", remember that your base is 40mm, the fanatic base radius 12.5mm, (12.5mm+40mm)<2".

yes, it is based on luck, but... when we start arguing with that, we don't need no tactics/strategies anymore.

Urgat
24-04-2009, 12:16
Yeah, forgot about the flying deal. Demon princes are on 50*50 bases though, so rolling a three will also have them hit. Well, and in my case a 4, coz I always send them from one corner with a large angle in front of my unit when it is against something charging, so they do have a big chance of sitting right on it in the end. Remember, nothing in the rules say you have to send them straight at the target from teh closest point of the unit, actually you're quite clearly allowed not to do so, and that's what I do.

WarlockOMork
24-04-2009, 12:25
jup or from the back of your own unit.

i always use em that way to. Aiming tricks greatly increases their value.

btw - it'd probaly be 3,6 or 9 fanatics your forgetting the other two units standing next to the one your charing, in this scenario.

so coupled with the aiming tricks towards him (or even more funny, parking in front), he's quite likely to be dead.



Edit: Actualy even with just 3 he'd probaly be dead. just throw em all from the back, trough your own unit, and make them come out just to the front where your charged.

Conotor
24-04-2009, 12:31
A single flying unit ought to do it.

Oo goody, i lost 100pts of sacrificial flyer, have fun while your entire unit gets shredded by rogue Fanatics.

I play Tomb Kings, so perhaps I'm biased, but this would really be a cakewalk. A unit of Carrion, or even a character wearing the Cloak, should do the job marvellously. Even easier since I can propel myself via Incantations.

Fanatics have virtually no effect on 3 point night goblins.

WarlockOMork
24-04-2009, 12:33
that and this was about WoC.

+ rogue fanatics? as soon as they are released they become magicaly directed missiles, to (more or less) where ever i want them to go.

yay for Hand of Gork.

Urgat
24-04-2009, 12:50
jup or from the back of your own unit.

You know, I never thought about that. But I gotta admit, even if they're just gobs, I wouldn't really want them to take 3d6 hits unless it's really worth it...

WarlockOMork
24-04-2009, 12:50
Demon prince of avaragly 500 points sounds worth it to me :D

Urgat
24-04-2009, 13:39
Yeah well yeah. So it's back to 100% chance of all of them to hit twice now... dang, why didn' I ever think of that? 6D6 S5 hits, man >>

WarlockOMork
24-04-2009, 13:44
and thats why i said its always easyer to talk a match then to play one,

you can never be sure how sneaky and or cunning the other player, playing said army can be :D

Milgram
24-04-2009, 13:49
DP used to come on 40mm bases - bel'akor was the exception. did that change?

then there is no obligation for the DP to sit ontop of the fanatic. you could even just clip the unit in order to avoid the fanatic. yes, you have to go in a straight line to the goblin unit with only one pivot during the charge, but... you can easily wait with that pivot until the fanatics are released and then turn in order to miss the one sitting in front of the unit. as for maximising ranks: why do you think that anyone has to move into the fanatic in order to maximise ranks? one could even argue that the defender has to be moved in order to maximise ranks.

next point: each fanatic that is sent out from the corner in order to sit next to the unit will not hit the DP on a 8+. so the chance of a hit is reduced.

Cragum
24-04-2009, 14:18
there is a simple trick to something flying in and trying to land so that fanatics cant hit it. you just throw the fanatics from say maybe like you have 5 wide unit og ngs, and the flying bugger is at the left hand side of the unit and you simply throw the fanatic from the the very right hand side. you can still throw a fnantic to the side, you find O&Gs players always feel they should throw them forward.
My favourite tactic with that idea is try and sneak the goblins into a very open space near to the opponents side and release when ready!

Urgat
24-04-2009, 16:06
then there is no obligation for the DP to sit ontop of the fanatic. you could even just clip the unit in order to avoid the fanatic. yes, you have to go in a straight line to the goblin unit with only one pivot during the charge, but... you can easily wait with that pivot until the fanatics are released and then turn in order to miss the one sitting in front of the unit.

If they're released from the back, and all sit 1" next to each other, good luck avoiding them all.
And defenders don't have to move to maximise ranks, it's always the attackers that has to, and a fanatic changes nothing. The DP has to maximise, and since fanatics are the only unit in the game you're allowed to step on afaik, he can't be used as an excuse not to.
Anyway yes, according to the recent charts, DP are on 50x50 bases now.

Storak
24-04-2009, 16:36
there is a simple trick to something flying in and trying to land so that fanatics cant hit it. you just throw the fanatics from say maybe like you have 5 wide unit og ngs, and the flying bugger is at the left hand side of the unit and you simply throw the fanatic from the the very right hand side. you can still throw a fnantic to the side, you find O&Gs players always feel they should throw them forward.
My favourite tactic with that idea is try and sneak the goblins into a very open space near to the opponents side and release when ready!

i did a test with this, and it doesn t really work. even a single fanatic passing through the unit might force a panic test. basically it is just the numbers 2, 3 and 4 that hit the unit and a 5 will still be in range. (corner release, diagonally through the unit)
the flyer can indeed ignore the second fanatics most of the time, by landing on the other side of the units flank. the probability of 3 fanatics landing close to each other is tiny. so is the probability of passing 2 Ld tests against 6 per turn....



GGGGG
GGGGGF
GGGGGF
GGGGGBT
GGGGGBT

(the BT will typically be forced to touch the middle fanatic when maximising ranks)

Milgram
24-04-2009, 17:32
the german version for forming a battleline states:

"Wenn es nicht möglich ist, eine Einheit aufgrund von im Weg befindlichem Gelände, Modellen usw. vernünftig auszurichten, ist es durchaus in Ordnung, die angegriffene Einheit ebenfalls (oder stattdessen) auszurichten, damit eine einheitliche Schlachtlinie gebildet werden kann." WH GRB S.21

I use this quote because I don't know the exact wording in the BRB - and it seems important here. one important thing for our discussion is, that you can move the charged unit because of 'models' in the way. the other important thing is the word 'vernünftig' - which means 'rational' or the (on warseer overused) term 'comon-sense'. so to me it sounds rational that you will not move into a fanatic if you dont want to - or absolutely have to.

btw: how are the goblin units discussed here formed? 5x6? so a fanatic released from the backside of a unit has to move a maximum of 120mm+12.5mm+2" -> 7". and he can't reach the dp then anyways. and you will have to do a panic test - after you passed that terror test at the beginning. two times on a 5 or a 6? well, that chance I would take with the dp.

Urgat
24-04-2009, 19:08
i did a test with this, and it doesn t really work. even a single fanatic passing through the unit might force a panic test. basically it is just the numbers 2, 3 and 4 that hit the unit and a 5 will still be in range. (corner release, diagonally through the unit)
the flyer can indeed ignore the second fanatics most of the time, by landing on the other side of the units flank. the probability of 3 fanatics landing close to each other is tiny. so is the probability of passing 2 Ld tests against 6 per turn....



GGGGG
GGGGGF
GGGGGF
GGGGGBT
GGGGGBT

(the BT will typically be forced to touch the middle fanatic when maximising ranks)


Your diagram is not really correct though, fanatics must be moved 1" away from anything when they've touched something. Besides, their base is 25mm wide, not 20 mm wide like goblins.


I use this quote because I don't know the exact wording in the BRB - and it seems important here. one important thing for our discussion is, that you can move the charged unit because of 'models' in the way. the other important thing is the word 'vernünftig' - which means 'rational' or the (on warseer overused) term 'comon-sense'. so to me it sounds rational that you will not move into a fanatic if you dont want to - or absolutely have to.

Yes, but the fanatic is not in the way the rule book means it. Enemies in the way prevent you from moving someplace, the fanatic doesn't since you can step on it. And common sense would dictate that the gobs wouldn't be so nice as to move and let the bloodthirster fit in, they would stay behind the fanatic for protection. I'd refuse to move my unit, that's for sure, the whole point of fanatics is that they hit you, nothing in the rule forces a goblin player to do what you wish to do, so they'd refuse, and rightfuly so.




btw: how are the goblin units discussed here formed? 5x6? so a fanatic released from the backside of a unit has to move a maximum of 120mm+12.5mm+2" -> 7". and he can't reach the dp then anyways.


Why? That's a perfect illustration of when the goblin player would send the fanatic through his own unit at an angle, to increase the distance to get through the unit, since he will be sure that the fanatic will get on the other side anyway. You send the first one from the back left corner towards the front right corner, the second one on the opposite corners, and then the last one from a corner towards the middle. There you go, fanatic shield, most likely 1" or 2" in front of the unit. 2" in front of the unit, yuo still get in contact with it, you don't take the 2D6, but still 1D6 at least. It's perfectly viable I believe.

Well I got to point out I'm just arguing for arguments sake, I'm not really using fanatics anymore anyway. Quite frankly the idea of using 21 fanatics is a ludicrous onein my eyes, so many points that may do nothing at all if you got even average luck...

Pathosis
25-04-2009, 01:41
Well, Fanatics are destroyed if the unit containing them breaks.

Charging them from over 8" away with a terror causing unit is generally be a good way of removing a battle line of night gobbos, with their puny LD of 5!

sephiroth87
25-04-2009, 04:49
I run an army like the goblin one occasionally, with the exception of throwing in two doom divers on top of the bolt throwers. I lose to players who run a 30 point unit in front of my night goblins, kicking them out of the units, and then hiding behind terrain for the rest of the game. 3 point gobbos DO fear their own fanatics when they take enough wounds to do a panic test.

pkain762
25-04-2009, 05:08
best thing you could do is sell your hellcannon.... they don't do much each time i've seen them on the board... half the time they either misfire and blow up or eat it's own crew and then it's useless. points are better spent buying a giant with the mark of slaanesh.... ASF FTW!!!!

kain

Milgram
25-04-2009, 06:07
Yes, but the fanatic is not in the way the rule book means it. Enemies in the way prevent you from moving someplace, the fanatic doesn't since you can step on it. And common sense would dictate that the gobs wouldn't be so nice as to move and let the bloodthirster fit in, they would stay behind the fanatic for protection.

yes, you can step on a fanatic. as you can on quicksand. or on very difficult terrain. but rationally you would not do so. therefore if you don't move your unit, I will not move my dp. the disatvantage is on your side as you have less goblins that... will die anyways before they can strike back. :)


probably I have to mention, that I argue for the arguments sake as well. I play orcs myself. as everyone believes I have fanatics in my nighters, I dont actually have to use them. :) It's funny how people like to lose their fliers against the nightgoblins instead of hunting the warmachines down...

Urgat
25-04-2009, 07:43
best thing you could do is sell your hellcannon.... they don't do much each time i've seen them on the board... half the time they either misfire and blow up or eat it's own crew and then it's useless. points are better spent buying a giant with the mark of slaanesh.... ASF FTW!!!!

kain

Yes, we all know how good giants are against fanatics and spear chukkas alike :p (remember what's the topic of the thread...).


yes, you can step on a fanatic. as you can on quicksand. or on very difficult terrain. but rationally you would not do so.

But, you MUST get through that difficult terrain, and if you can't complete the charge because of that it's your loss. That's in the rules you know.


therefore if you don't move your unit, I will not move my dp. the disatvantage is on your side as you have less goblins that... will die anyways before they can strike back. :)

Excepted that would be cheating because you can't take your precious DP to charge a unit packfull of fanatics and accpet that they may have a way of hitting you. Therefore my goblins wouldn't die, I'd just pack up. You must maximize, fanatics don't prevent you from doing so, so if you don't do it, you're cheating.
Next time a frenzied unit wants to charge one of your units in a wood, tell the guy it's ok, he doesn't have to, it wouldn't be a rational move >>
Discussion over for me, sorry but I just don't feel like going on with that one.

Milgram
25-04-2009, 08:12
But, you MUST get through that difficult terrain, and if you can't complete the charge because of that it's your loss. That's in the rules you know.


uhm, no.

I'm not talking of a unit TOTALLY behind that difficult terrain but a unit PARTIALLY behind the difficult terrain. e.g. unit 5 wide, 2 models behind the difficult terrain. corner to corner you get 4 in contact, for the 5th you would have to go into the difficult terrain. why on earth should anyone do that? not even frenzy units...

if that unit is mainly in the woods and can be seen, sure, you go into the forrest, even if part of the unit is outside.

Cragum
27-04-2009, 19:44
for me tbh people are bringing up the point of using their NG unit to push the fanatic through right? well think it this way as i usually do.

you have a DP charging your unit and your afraid of killing you night goblins with your own fanatic right? surely that DP will bitch slap evryone of you gobbos to the next gaming system!

my army bases the NGs on being carriers and aiming if they dont run away at small units such as assassins and leaders due to the amazing quality of winning a combat without fighting it.

but may i ask as i read someone put this up on this thread that a fanatic has to be 1 inch away from the uni after it hits them?

Urgat
27-04-2009, 21:03
basic BRB rule: no unit may be closer than 1" from another unit, so when the fanatic goes out, he's moved 1" away. People tend to overlook that point.