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whydiablo
20-04-2009, 07:17
If a stubborn character join a non-stubborn unit, is that the unit become stubborn?

havoc626
20-04-2009, 07:22
Technically no, but in most cases, the character will have better Ld than the unit, so the combat modifiers wont apply anyway.

whydiablo
20-04-2009, 07:27
So the unit not really become stubborn, but still can use the character unmodifier LD ever I lost 10 points in combat (just like the unit stubborn)?

Necromancy Black
20-04-2009, 08:04
Yes, the unit affectively becomes stubborn but doesn't actually gain the rule.

Unlike Immune to Psychology, character's neither gain or lose Stubborn when joining another unit, so the unit is able to use the Characters unmodified leadership for Break tests.

I'm pretty sure this is clearly stated in the stubborn rules.

Griefbringer
20-04-2009, 08:24
BRB pages 78-79 is your friend here.

Braad
20-04-2009, 09:17
I can only support the answers given here.

The last bit on page 78-79 even describes this specific situation, and tells that you can use the unmodified leadership of the joined character.

Tlotsqi
20-04-2009, 11:02
But according to the p5 you're supposed to use the best leadership value to test, so in the case of a skink chief on stegadon in a saurus unit, what is the right value?
Ld 7 (skink character) or Ld 8, (the unit ld)?

nosferatu1001
20-04-2009, 11:51
*sigh*

Stubborn means you dont reduce your leadership when testing, so whatever happens the best leadership will be 7, as you must have lost by at least 1.

At the time you take the test the Chief will have Leadership 7, and the Saurus will have Ld(8-modifier) - so you are taking the highest leadership

Tlotsqi
20-04-2009, 12:13
We 're having the same discussion in the french forum "warhammer forum" with "someone who has a particular legitimity to talk about the rules", and for him the little sentence between parenthesis (the unit becomes stubborn), means that the rule applies to the unit, so if you take the best ld for tests as said in the BRB, for him the right Ld is 8, the saurus one.
Personally I think the good one is the chief Ld, but the french sentence is tendencious, and with someone so qualified to give rules comments, saying the stubborness test is done with a Ld 8, for me the question is not so simple.

But apparently for you (all?) there is no trouble, the right way to do is clearly to use the character Ld for stubborness even if it's not the highest Ld of the unit. Do I understand well?

theunwantedbeing
20-04-2009, 12:24
We 're having the same discussion in the french forum "warhammer forum" with "someone who has a particular legitimity to talk about the rules", and for him the little sentence between parenthesis (the unit becomes stubborn), means that the rule applies to the unit, so if you take the best ld for tests as said in the BRB, for him the right Ld is 8, the saurus one.
Personally I think the good one is the chief Ld, but the french sentence is tendencious, and with someone so qualified to give rules comments, saying the stubborness test is done with a Ld 8, for me the question is not so simple.

But apparently for you (all?) there is no trouble, the right way to do is clearly to use the character Ld for stubborness even if it's not the highest Ld of the unit. Do I understand well?

Read page 78.
You use the highest leadership after modifiers have been applied.

Tlotsqi
20-04-2009, 12:47
But He could object that this part of the text applies only to a stubborn unit and non stubborn characters.
In his logic you got:
-a rule (p5) who says that you use the best LD of a unit
-a rule (the parenthesis) who says that unit becomes stubborn
1+2=3 the conclusion is for my exemple, the unit is stubborn with LD8.

In front of the simplicity of this logic, it's hard to oppose a perfect rule justification, (in french).

Paz
20-04-2009, 13:07
But the piont is that unit doesn't have stubborn.
It's like your unit is splited in two after combat: your stubborn part after combat has their basic Ld but your non-stubborn part has modified Ld. Then you use Highest Ld value in the unit.
You may have stubborn with ld8 only when your chief has Stegadon Helm :P

Tlotsqi
20-04-2009, 13:40
But the piont is that unit doesn't have stubborn.
In fact this is the true problem, for him the parenthesis grants the unit with stubbornness ("the units becomes stubborn" as writed in the french BRB).

That's why his conclusion is the opposite of yours. But the same interpretation from several players from different countries, should show him that he could be in the wrong.

Paz
20-04-2009, 14:16
Yes, I agree. We have the same problem. The main rule is unit gives psychology to the character whom joined it, but not the oposite. And in the stubborn section it's writen that the unit may use unmodified chracter's Ld (so the unit has stubborn indeed).

stripsteak
20-04-2009, 14:58
i think it might just be a translation problem the only English in parenthesis i could find says "(effectively becoming Stubborn themselves if they are not already)" but thats just saying since the characters LD is stubborn, and you use his LD since it's most likely going to be higher. the effect is that the unit would behave as if it were stubborn. it does not however grant stubborn to the unit.

Paz
20-04-2009, 15:22
that's we are talkin about :) It's clear now.

Necromancy Black
20-04-2009, 15:30
Yeah, the rule in the English one says "effectively" before "becoming stubborn". This means by affect they are stubborn, not by he rule. A big crucial difference, as you can have two completely different rules give the exact same affect under certain circumstances.

Tlotsqi
20-04-2009, 15:54
Well, it seems clear now, the english rule doesn't seem to be subject to any discussion or misunderstanding for you. Thx to all, I will try to convert the last sceptics :)

Griefbringer
20-04-2009, 16:53
Or perhaps in France, Warhammer is just played differently to the rest of the world...

Tlotsqi
20-04-2009, 17:10
We finish in the third place last year at the ETC, so we mustn't play so differently than the other countries. What were the results of the Finland team?
:evilgrin:

Spirit
20-04-2009, 22:32
Or perhaps in France, Warhammer is just played differently to the rest of the world...

Yea every unit suffers from a -5 Ld penalty if placed within 48" of an enemy unit.

Tlotsqi
21-04-2009, 11:18
Very interesting comment......but I don't see a link with my question.