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Axis
20-04-2009, 07:53
The title says it all really. The nine abroad, what can you do? It is pretty pricey but the bonuses are huge. High mobility, 9 might. 9 annoying special rules.

Played against it today in 2k points and really i had no good way to deal with it. I threw everything against it for 3 turns and i only killed 2 of them :(.

For the record i was elves and had glorfindel, elrond and radagast all casting light of the valar. I also threw a lot of archery at them (4 companies of high elves and 3 companies of wood elves) However, the undying's free helm of iron will roll combined with khamul's essence leach and a resistance of 2 meant that they are just really tough to kill. Add to that 9 points of might :(

Billpete002
20-04-2009, 09:49
Great Eagles.

Since he has taken 9 abroad he cannot take fellbeasts - you can use your great eagles to swoop attack the 9 and to my understanding you cannot attack back from a swoop attack.

You can take 3 great eagles and they are still cheaper than the 9 abroad and that's 3d3 str 6 hits per turn on the suckers not including any other critters (orcs) around in the swoop attack!

Charax
20-04-2009, 10:47
Great Eagles.

Since he has taken 9 abroad he cannot take fellbeasts - you can use your great eagles to swoop attack the 9 and to my understanding you cannot attack back from a swoop attack.

Good plan, but as Swoop Attacks inflict "hits" and Essence Leech triggers when the formation suffers "hits" that may end up backfiring in a big way (especially if the eagles end their movement within 12" of the Nine - they can have their hits reflected back on them)

Axis
20-04-2009, 13:11
S 6 to D 8 isn't great odds anyway. And when they do d3 there is a low chance you'll actually do the 2 hits required to kill one (and that isn't even counting khamul). First you have to roll the 3+ to get more than 2 hits and then roll two 5+'s and then they have to fail both khamul's rolls... the odds are really bad.

fubukii
20-04-2009, 16:21
siege, massed shooting, dragons, anything that harms spirits, troops with really high courage, or a well placed rear or flank attack.

Marauder
20-04-2009, 16:35
siege, massed shooting, dragons, anything that harms spirits, troops with really high courage, or a well placed rear or flank attack.

Shooting won't work so well, since you can only shoot at them if you are withing 12" and then you count as SV 6+ thanks to the Shadow Lord. Spells aren't so great because of the Undying.

How about charge him with some cavalry? Anything you throw at them in melee is going to be less expensive than them, so don't worry about essence leach!

Babolat360
20-04-2009, 16:35
Council of Wizardry - read the rules and you'll see what I mean.

thorgrim
20-04-2009, 17:35
Council of wizardry and Siege engines. You can shhot the 9 only if your in half range so Longbows have the kick to hit and avoid Kahmul (at least for 1 turn).

Reinholt
20-04-2009, 17:39
Duel them with Boromir.

Da Black Gobbo
20-04-2009, 18:23
dwarf champion duel, heavy artillery fire in early game, so if Kāmul's abbility triggers it kill some other enemies, i think 2 turn of artillery (3 ballistas for example) can bring them down.

Zubb
20-04-2009, 21:04
Duel 'em with Hero-Killer. Preferably from the Nine (good ones).

Axis
20-04-2009, 23:34
If you want to duel them you are forgetting that they will have equal fight with you (or better) because of the knight of umbar and they have 9 points of might to blow. Also there is a reasonable chance any might you try and use gets doubled (dwimmerlaik) so if you want to heroic duel there is a good chance you'll need 2 might. If you want to add epic strike or whatnot you'll need more, if you want to modify you dice rolls in the duel you'll need even more.

It is hard to flank them since they have move 10 and can run through terrain and troops.

Fighting with high courage isn't that useful because firstly they have the tainted so you can't use heroes courage and secondly they have spells to reduce your courage.

Artillery might work. However, remember they have D8 and khamul so there is a decent chance that they won't lose much. You'll also have to rely on not getting misses and stuff. Finally, they'll be in your lines on turn one or turn 2. (move 10 and also they have wings of terror).

Options so far seem to be dragons and other big monsters and cav. I am not sure how good the odds of a dragon are to be honest. The nine will fight against it's courage of 5. If they take it's strength and let it have a few extra attacks they'll be wounding it on 3's with rerolls.

Really you need to get them to spend their might before it is feasible to kill them otherwise they have too many ways of staying alive.

dtjunkie19
21-04-2009, 00:19
I'd say hit them with lots of infantry. or lots of cavalry. Hit them with cheap basic troops

Axis
21-04-2009, 05:23
That is pretty much what i've concluded after some thought. However, i'm elves so i don't get cheap troops so it looks like i'll be hitting up some allied troops. Numenoreans most likely since i have those models.

Emissary
21-04-2009, 14:39
Also remember with artillary that they are only one company, so you get a -1 to your roll on the chart.

The thing about a large creature is that it will strike before them so can cut quite a few down depending on how it rolls. The R2 and D8 does help to blunt that.

Billpete002
22-04-2009, 04:56
after reading this thread you begin to wonder what on earth the game developers were smoking since it really seems like

Nine Abroad > Sauron > Dragon >= Balrog

and if we go by the other thread about terror being the only ability conferred to a formation from a epic hero it seems almost like a no brainer to take the 9... granted they are expensive but they seem to be even nastier than if you had taken Sauron and a Dragon in the same force...

Don't know might be putting too much into this, but seriously 500 for them? seems a bit daft.

Sarah S
22-04-2009, 05:07
The 9 are not better than any of the other options you have put up there.

They are just all useful for different purposes.

I would rank them all about the same - but vastly different - and would say that 500 points of "other stuff" can take out any of them.

Faeslayer
22-04-2009, 05:38
Good plan, but as Swoop Attacks inflict "hits" and Essence Leech triggers when the formation suffers "hits" that may end up backfiring in a big way (especially if the eagles end their movement within 12" of the Nine - they can have their hits reflected back on them)

That's true, but the eagles swoop up to 36"... with a little foresight to keep other friendly troops out of the way, they could smash the nine pretty handily.

Gandalf was born to kill 'em, too, with his magic flashlight and Light of the Valar.

The resilience 2 makes things a little difficult, but they're 500 points! Each one you kill is worth a company of elves, more or less.

Ksarn
22-04-2009, 06:01
hordes of cavalry torpedo's

Axis
22-04-2009, 14:24
That's true, but the eagles swoop up to 36"... with a little foresight to keep other friendly troops out of the way, they could smash the nine pretty handily.

Gandalf was born to kill 'em, too, with his magic flashlight and Light of the Valar.

The resilience 2 makes things a little difficult, but they're 500 points! Each one you kill is worth a company of elves, more or less.

The nine get a free helm of iron will roll so gandalf wont do much.

I just don't think you understand the odds for the eagles to hurt them. First you have to roll a 3+ on your D3. Then at least two 5+ rolls. Then they have to fail at least two of khamul's saves. You only have a 22% chance to actually get a hit through (assuming S6). You need two such hits to kill one. Your odds are terrible. A third of the time you won't even get enough hits to hurt them.

Sarah S
22-04-2009, 15:18
The nine get a free helm of iron will roll so gandalf wont do much.

It's a 4+ roll. If they fail, they either take damage or they spend Might.

If they don't spend might you are inflicting casualties off the get-go.

If the spend Might then hit them later with a Heroic Duel.

It really seems like you are going out of your way to see the Nine as indestructible when they really are no such thing.

Axis
22-04-2009, 22:57
Have you actually fought them? Because you have just said they aren't that good but you haven't actually given any options for fighting them. You haven't said why they aren't really tough to kill/deal with. So how about giving some reasons or some argument to defend your position.

They do have 9 might so they can afford one or two uses like that and still have a massive stock. They can mimic fight so heroic duels aren't as lopsided as normal. Also the dwimmerlaik's ability means that calling heroic actions such as duels gets pricey.

Finally light of the valar just isn't good against them. Half the time they resist it. Then of those that they don't resist a third of them only do one hit so don't hurt them. If you get 2 or 3 hits then there is a decent chance (at least with the 2 hits) that they'll roll one 5 so deflect the hit then take no casualties. To give some numbers if you roll a 2 on your D3 the nine have a 55.5% chance to bounce at least one hit. If you roll a 3 on your D3 they have a 26% chance to bounce at least 2 hits. To put it all together, on any one non resisted casting of light of the valar you have a 39.46% chance to kill one assuming they spend no might. So overall you have about a 20% chance to pull it off. Rolling a 6 on a single dice is 16.6% chance so it is slightly more likely than rolling a 6 (obviously it is like rolling a 5 on a 5 sided dice).

Gandalf's other spell is only useful if they fail the courage test and given they get a free resist it doesn't look too promising.

Sarah S
22-04-2009, 23:34
There have been a dozen suggestions in this thread. If you can't implement any of them I would say that the failing is not with the game.

mightygnoblar
23-04-2009, 00:17
the problem is that most of the suggestions are sketchy at best and the wraiths can probably deal with them anyway, they really are hard, there combined abilities plus the fact that the can take the fate that gives them +1 defence make them almost impossible to shift without substantial effort, a combined rear/flank charge would do the trick, but getting them in that possition would be hard in itself considering how mobile they are (spirit move, and at the double i beleive plus spells)

id have to say the best bet would be something along the lines of the white council or the fellowship, but they are a hefty points cost as well and no where near as effective

Axis
23-04-2009, 07:12
There have been a dozen suggestions in this thread. If you can't implement any of them I would say that the failing is not with the game.

And most of those don't work. So why don't you add something constructive? Or maybe you just like being critical. Next.

The cavalry idea is quite good, i think i will try it. I suspect the cav will need strength 4 to do much though. Knights of dol amroth perhaps? I was sort of hoping for something cheaper though.

fubukii
23-04-2009, 08:41
i would like to add that the shadowlord is not a enchanted cloak and short range shooting can hit him, luckily most siege has a 36-48 inch range.

In addition as you kill nazgul the unit loses its special rules, they also can not come back unlike the 500 pt allies of good due to blessing of the valar.

Siege bows work great vs them.
Magic in general, gandalfs blinding light is a crippling spell, sure they get a 50% chance to stop it, and can burn might to increase it, then they will be easier to duel. Get a unit with aragorn in combat with them im sure they will fall, just due some wounds from range with spells to burn their might then hit them with cav or challenges.

Eastern Shadow
23-04-2009, 09:07
I agree that while alot of idea's have been given out, few are actually applicable to solving the issue. I'll try to be a help here since i am fond of the ringwraiths and dragon models and rules.

The formation is 500 points. Dream on if you can beat it with anything 300 points or less. Its a formation made to stay and it will. Same with Dragons, Balrogs, and Sauron.

Well lets get things in order in what we're dealing with. Its a legendary formation. The 8 lesser nazguls are infantry type. The Witch-king is the hero type in this formation. Therefore the Witch-king alone has 9 might. Despite the fact they have a mastery of 10, i regard them as a melee legendary unit before a spellcasting due to no epic channelling and only having 2 schools of magic to mess around with.

Since a spell can only be cast once, the list of spells availiabe are not really bad. The worst are black breath and black dart(which will highly unlikely be followed by anything else). Both of these spells effect heroes. After that they can only effect courage (which sadly is good for them for melee) and cause direct damage or immobilize units or make themselves more mobile.

Well due to Spirit grasp and The knight of umbars special, big heavy hitter monsters are a no no. Now that means that duels could be used here. Now most of you are saying that KoU causes high FV to be useless. Wrong. There is a difference between offering a formation FV and the Hero having that FV. If you wish to challenge that statement please do so educationaly and I will offer you why i claim so.
So that implies that the Witch king will have to call Epic strike to be FV 10. Thats no problem for the Balrog or Gilly or Elendil. Due to calling the duel, they get 11 so favour is in thier hands, though slightly. The balrog will get some hits in as stated above and i can only theorize about gilly and elendil.

Boromir is my fav for gondor. Tag him with desperate heroics (or Blessing or Galandriel) and duel the Witch king. Use Epic Duel + Epic Strike + Epic Blow + what ever dice remains after the dwimmerlaik. (you guys forget that a 4+ on behalf of the dwimmer will result in 2 might being used). You should have the upper hand over the Witch king unless he uses A crap ton of his might. In either case you depleted him a ton of his might, killed the witchking or possibly killed off some of his ringwraiths trying to get him. Boromir can kill a few of them folks for only 175. If you follow up this with a cavalry shock, infantry, or my favourite counter, Court of the Dead King, you should find them dying.

I can share more of my ideas depending on the whether or not i'm constructive to this topic or not. In other words your opinions matter :P sry if i type like a pompous prick just my nature on forums.

fubukii
23-04-2009, 10:14
the witch king as part of the 9 can not call a epic strike, as its not one of his actions

Eastern Shadow
23-04-2009, 13:37
the witch king as part of the 9 can not call a epic strike, as its not one of his actions

So if i use rohan as an example. If I use Theodreds Knights instead of Epic Hero Theodred. Does that mean i do not have access to his Epic Intervention in that Legendary Formation? Kinda seems underwhelming then.

Emissary
23-04-2009, 13:46
So if i use rohan as an example. If I use Theodreds Knights instead of Epic Hero Theodred. Does that mean i do not have access to his Epic Intervention in that Legendary Formation? Kinda seems underwhelming then.

That's correct. There are different versions running around, but it's also why the legendary formation versions tend to be cheaper.

All 9 nazgul as epic heroes costs 1,200 points while they're 500 in the formation. There will be drawbacks for going the cheap way but some good things too.

Eastern Shadow
23-04-2009, 13:52
That's correct. There are different versions running around, but it's also why the legendary formation versions tend to be cheaper.

All 9 nazgul as epic heroes costs 1,200 points while they're 500 in the formation. There will be drawbacks for going the cheap way but some good things too.

SO... The my fact in my previous post that states that Combat Mimicry affects formation NOT hero FV is really the answer people were looking for. Epic duel the crap out of the Witchking and you deny them 9 or less points of might and At the Double.

Emissary
23-04-2009, 14:04
Why does something that affects the formation not affect the hero? The hero is part of the formation after all.

Eastern Shadow
23-04-2009, 14:28
I may be wrong. On pg 64 in the rules under Fight, It explains breifly the difference between Formation FV and Hero FV. My understanding of the system was that Hero's and the Company Formation he's in are only combined when on the attack. Not while dueling or defending. Clarify if I am wrong or unclear of what I am getting at.

Emissary
23-04-2009, 14:33
I understand that. It was more of the bit where an effect that affects the entire formation not affecting the hero. IE, if I cast a spell on the formation to reduce its courage, afaik it affects the hero. Same thing were if an effect raises the formation's fight, it would raise the hero's as well.

Eastern Shadow
23-04-2009, 14:39
Ah yes, but below it states that Courage is indeed entwined with the formations, unlike FV. SO spells effecting Courage is referenced off the hero with out quarrel. Spells effecting FV will effect the hero's value on the attack. However on the defense, it will effect the company. Due to that fact that is where i think the formation FV does not combine with the hero's for the sake of dueling.

For example, since i dont even make sense of what i wrote. If Kurdush the Firecaller was put in my easterling Cohort. Does that make his FV of 3 into a FV4 due to the easterlings having a higher natural FV. My answer is no, but if it is otherwise different please correct me.

dtjunkie19
23-04-2009, 15:14
it doesn't, but what he is trying to say i believe is that when a formation is affected by a spell or special ability the hero is as well. For courage, FV, everything

Sarah S
23-04-2009, 18:28
And most of those don't work. So why don't you add something constructive? Or maybe you just like being critical. Next.


the problem is that most of the suggestions are sketchy at best and the wraiths can probably deal with them anyway...


I agree that while alot of idea's have been given out, few are actually applicable to solving the issue.

I thought this thread was about how to deal with the Nine, not how to kill them all in a single turn without expending any effort or forethought.

They're 500 points. They have very limited offensive capability even when you account for their magic. Yes they can do some damage, but in my opinion, they cannot do an amount of damage that is commensurate with their high points cost.

Here's my contribution for dealing with the Nine Abroad:
Any regular infantry - For 500 points, you can get, for example, 5 formations of 5 companies of Minas Tirith Warriors. That's 200 models against 9. Yes it's hard to put hits on the Nine with low strength but by simply grinding them with bog standard troops, the Nine have to inflict over 20 casualties for each they take to simply break even.

Any Cavalry - Even better than standard infantry is standard cavalry. Cav with lances is by far preferable. Yes, you will lose knights that charge the Nine, but the Nine will also be losing Nazgul. On even points, most Cavalry come out ahead in these exchanges.

Anything with Spirit Grasp - Spirit Grasp cuts the Nine's Defence value down to 5. Ghostly Legion, Ghostly Riders, or anything of the sort will chop them down.

Duels - Yes, it is suicide to engage the Witch-king in a duel while he still has 9 Might points. Make him spend his Might points before you duel him. If you can, issue two or three duels in a turn. He might win the first, but at great expense to his Might reserve which will allow the further duels to annihilate him - and the Nine.

Morgul Blades - Only available to Evil, but when taken will absolutely devastate the Nine. Put them on a formation with Poisoned Weapons to ensure you annihilate the Nine completely in one go.

Wear them down - This seems too obvious and stupid to mention, but each casualty that the Nine Abroad takes removes one of their special rules. Khamul is obviously the last to go, but who does he remove as the first casualty? The Dwimmerlaik who could come in very handy in a duel? The Betrayer so the Nine are now really pathetic in combat? The Knight of Umbar? The Tainted? Whoever he removes, you have gained a new possibility that you should attempt to exploit.

With those considerations, it's best to use a combined arms approach to the Nine. Have some shooting and magic to make him pay for removing the Shadow Lord or the Undying early. Force him to spend his might on silly things like Will of Iron rolls. Have Heroes that can threaten the Witch-king with Duels. Have infantry that can wear them down and Cavalry that can ride them into the dust.

With the above in mind, here is at least one specific c-c-c-combo that should explode the Nine into dust in a single turn:
Aragorn+Merry+Pippin in 3 companies of Knights of Dol Amroth: 500 points.

When charging, burn Pippin's Might Point if you have to, to ensure you have an Unstoppable Charge.

Have Merry issue an Epic Sacrifice if able - you will be removing him as a casualty later anyways, so you might as well try and get a 3+ save for the rest of the turn now while you can.

Aragorn issues an Epic Duel, and by expending Merry and Pippin, gets:
Fight 7 + the better of 2d6 +6 +1 for issuing the Duel, for a minimum of 15 and a maximum of 20.
Spending his other Might to modify the result (taking into account the Dwimmerlaik and Aragorn's Mighty Hero rule) leads to between 16 and 23 points.

At worst for the good player, if Aragorn rolled a 1 (on both dice) and the Witch-king rolled a 6, the Witch-king would still have to expend 4 Might points just to DRAW.

EDIT: I forgot Aragorn has Epic Strike too. Throw that in for another +2 for Aragorn's side. There's no way the Witch-king is winning this duel.

More likely than not, Aragorn won't roll a 1 and the Witch-king won't roll a 6, so the Witch-king will need to burn all of his might just to survive. If you forced him to expend some might earlier in the game, you can almost be assured of winning this duel by a wide margin.

At the very least, Aragorn will still be alive after the duel, and lend Anduril to the lances of the Knights. With the charge bonus and Unstoppable Char bonus, the Knights should have 31 attacks hitting on a 3+. Even with Khamul that should wipe most of them out (and all of them if the duel went at least a little in your favour). Now, although a handful of hits get reflected onto you, hopefully you snuck the Epic Sacrifice past the Dwimmerlaik to get a 3+ save against them.

Axis
23-04-2009, 23:49
Thank you, that is the sort of stuff i was hoping for.

My only problem with using basic infantry is that the nine are very mobile and it is hard to bog anything down in wotr (since they can move away the next turn).

If you engage the nine with some infantry next turn they can run behind. Do you turn around to face them and leave your rear exposed to other things or not? It is a tough decision.

Cavalry does seem the way to go. My only worry with using units of cavalry (and this goes for ghostly legion infantry and normal infantry too) is that of failed courage tests. A combination of the undying, sunder spirit, terrifying aura and maybe add transfix into the mix makes the unit of cav not the most likely to make it.

My worry with heroic duels is that, unless you are charging from a long way away, the 9 can black breath or black dart the offendingly powerful hero. This either kills him, drops his might so he mightn't be able to duel/epic fight or, in the case of black breath, turns the hero into a useless lump for the turn.

Finally there is also the risk that the nine could charge, (maybe use a heroic charge) the cav. They have good mobility!

Now i know the nine aren't going to succeed in both these courses of action in one turn unless they get some unholy focus rolls but my point is that the options are there for them. I also realise that sooner or later they will run out of might if they are using it for all these things, the problem is that by the time they have used their might they have killed a lot of the stuff that is good against them (and don't forget the rest of his army too.. it usually can't all be ignored safely).

A final point to note is that the nine can safely remove the dark marshal and probably the shadow lord early without losing much power at all. Usually by turn 1-2 they are in short range anyway so it isn't a big issue for them. After that, i do agree that causing casualties makes for a difficult choice as to who to remove, and that will weaken them more and more.

korskarnkai
28-04-2009, 13:54
How would Aragorn with 4 companies of Grey Company and the Banner of the King do?