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MSU
20-04-2009, 15:20
Can you panic a Dark Elf Hydra? It doesn't say ItP on the profile, so I would assume that if you could kill a beastmaster it would cause a panic test.

On that thought, would you have to kill both beastmasters for it to panic? 1 beastmaster is 33% of the models in the unit, but it is only 14% of the wound total in the unit. The panic test from shooting/magic is only based on models, right?

Necromancy Black
20-04-2009, 15:31
I thought there was something stopping it panic?

If not then yes, Panic is calculated on model losses , not wounds.

Monsterzonk
20-04-2009, 15:37
Since shooting damage (including spells) are always resolved against the Hydra itself, there are only a few magic items / spells that allow you to target one of the Beastmasters. However, you need to take a panic test when you lose one of them. (Even if it seems a little odd, I'll admit...)

Hope that helps!

MSU
20-04-2009, 15:52
Ok thats what I thought. I was referring to the level 1 WoC Nurgle spell or the Wood Elf bow that lets you pick out a target. I didn't realize how brutal it would be to kill both beastmasters -- hydra panic and rally on a 6! (if there's no general around)

Monsterzonk
20-04-2009, 15:55
Yeah, it can be mean. But usually ranged attacks and spells that allow you to pick the target need LoS, so you can still try and hide behind the Hydra, I guess...

EvC
20-04-2009, 16:16
When I realised that Buboes can make a Hydra take a panic check if it goes off I was well happy. Let's hope my opponents don't work out to plac them behind the Hydra...

Monsterzonk
20-04-2009, 16:19
When I realised that Buboes can make a Hydra take a panic check if it goes off I was well happy. Let's hope my opponents don't work out to plac them behind the Hydra...

Uh, oh... maybe someone should delete my previous post...

moose
20-04-2009, 18:37
I killed two hydras with my SSC skulls of the foe on Saturday - causing panics by making them both run off the board in turn one...AWESOME.

Moose.

EvC
20-04-2009, 19:34
And people say Tomb Kings are weak!

garythewargamer
21-04-2009, 00:27
anyway to take care of a hydra is a good way.

knightime98
21-04-2009, 04:08
Pg. 58 of the Dark Elf Rule book.
1. Special Rules of the hydra include "Monster and Handlers".
2. If BOTH beastmasters are killed then you make a monster reaction roll.
It's pretty cut and dry there. If you kill one handler that's not both! The monster causes Terror.. why would it run if one of it's handler's die? The other one keeps him in line.
3. Also, in the BRB under panic - the rules go to say that warmachines and chariots who suffer a loss do not need to check.. They do fall short of saying monsters and crew.. But the point here is that there is only 2 crew with the Hydra in the same fashion as Bolt Throwers, cannons, stone throwers and so on.
4. Lastly, the oddity of being able to kill a handler is rare. Primarily because the handler's hide "behind the bulk" of the monster. Seems fair to me. In the extreme case that you are able to kill both handlers then you roll on the monster reaction table as pointed out on pg.58 of the DE Book.

That's the way, I'd play it. Note that also units that suffer 25% casulaties are meant to be units that have varying unit sizes that you choose before the game (namely blocks or troops). The hydra does not have extra crew you can buy or add.. Which further demonstrates the intent.

Nurgling Chieftain
21-04-2009, 04:35
I'm not seeing anything there that demonstrates any such intent, knightime98. If they wanted the unit to be immune to panic, they would have given it that rule, or just made it immune to psychology outright.

Necromancy Black
21-04-2009, 04:48
Agreed. Considering handlers to be the same as warmachine crew is bending things a bit too far. Monsters and handlers panic as normal.

havoc626
21-04-2009, 06:37
And to Monsterzonk, your 2nd post is valid, just not in both the cases. Buboes can target the handlers, as it does not need LoS. The WE bow, however, is a normal shooting attack, and cannot target the handlers UNLESS it is on the flank/rear of the unit, and can actually see the handlers. This is the same for Skaven characters using Lead from the Back

xragg
21-04-2009, 06:39
You yourself say its a very rare event to be able to kill a handler. One handler dies something allowed to pick it out, then I am pretty sure the other handler could get spooked. The handler gets spooked, loses control of the hydra, and both run. Its easy to explain things by fluff if you want to.

Nurgling Chieftain
21-04-2009, 06:54
Buboes can target the handlers, as it does not need LoS.Buboes does require LOS, thank the gods! :eek:

Monsterzonk
21-04-2009, 07:20
And to Monsterzonk, your 2nd post is valid, just not in both the cases. Buboes can target the handlers, as it does not need LoS. The WE bow, however, is a normal shooting attack, and cannot target the handlers UNLESS it is on the flank/rear of the unit, and can actually see the handlers. This is the same for Skaven characters using Lead from the Back

Like it has already been said, Buboes does need LoS, and there is a magic WE bow (Hunter's Talon or something, don't have the book with me, about 25pts), that specifically allows the shooter to pick any target model, even if he normally wouldn't be allowed to shoot it (like a Character in a unit, for example), so I guess as long as he can see a handler, he can shoot him.

havoc626
21-04-2009, 08:27
My bad about the Bubous in that case, I didn't have the book in front of me.

Milgram
21-04-2009, 08:54
well... there are a whole bunch of other things that can hit the handlers... especially template weapons. which almost every army has access to.

knightime98
21-04-2009, 09:57
Well let me ask this question then...
Say you hit both handlers and kill them..
Are you saying now, you roll for panic and monster reaction???

So, he guards, fights, or acts normal and also runs away????
How does that make any sense!!!

NO.. you don't do both.. I suppose if a troll charged the hydra you'd take a fear test too. The handlers themselves don't cause terror so they might run. The rules don't say the handlers cause terror. You see, it's a package. It's only with the handler getting killed that, I'd say no panic test. However, if a unit runs through them and such - that's a different story. It's because there is no way for you to have a higher unit strength to defend against it. It was the intent of GW to make it that way. I have pointed it out in various ways. Apparently, on deaf ears against anti dark elf players who absolutely dislike the hydra. Not based on any solid ground but by their figments of what they want to happen.
This whole situation goes in line with a dragon and it's rider. If the rider dies.. does the dragon panic?? it's 50% of the model? NO, it does not.. you roll on the monster reaction table. That's the end of it. Why is the hydra all the sudden different? It's not!
If troops run through your dragon.. does that model take a panic test.. Yes.. You see the difference... The same principles apply.

Atrahasis
21-04-2009, 10:16
One casualty is greater than 25% of 3 models. Panic at the end of the phase.

If both handlers are killed, then the hydra takes an immediate monster reaction test, and then a panic test at the end of the phase if it is still subject to psychology.

There is no reason at all to believe that the Hydra ignores panic for lost handlers except wishful thinking. Arguments about taking fear tests are moot as the rules already allow a unit containing a fear/terror causer to ignore fear/terror.

Clegane
21-04-2009, 10:18
Well let me ask this question then...
Say you hit both handlers and kill them..
Are you saying now, you roll for panic and monster reaction???

So, he guards, fights, or acts normal and also runs away????
How does that make any sense!!!

NO.. you don't do both.. I suppose if a troll charged the hydra you'd take a fear test too. The handlers themselves don't cause terror so they might run. The rules don't say the handlers cause terror. You see, it's a package. It's only with the handler getting killed that, I'd say no panic test. However, if a unit runs through them and such - that's a different story. It's because there is no way for you to have a higher unit strength to defend against it. It was the intent of GW to make it that way. I have pointed it out in various ways. Apparently, on deaf ears against anti dark elf players who absolutely dislike the hydra. Not based on any solid ground but by their figments of what they want to happen.
This whole situation goes in line with a dragon and it's rider. If the rider dies.. does the dragon panic?? it's 50% of the model? NO, it does not.. you roll on the monster reaction table. That's the end of it. Why is the hydra all the sudden different? It's not!
If troops run through your dragon.. does that model take a panic test.. Yes.. You see the difference... The same principles apply.


Um no. It is NOT the same situation as a dragon and rider.
There are rules for Monstrous Mounts with character riders and there are rules for Monsters with handler teams.

They are not the same type of 'package.' Monsters with handlers do benefit from some special rules, such as being able to ignore the Handlers' inferior movement rate while charging, as well as being able to ignore difficult terrain due to having skirmishing handlers.

But the Monster/Handler rules make no special allowances for the rules of Panic tests. Those rules clearly state that if a UNIT (which the Hydra and handlers are) loses 25% of its models in the shooting or magic phase, then that UNIT takes a panic test.

The Hydra having Terror has nothing to do with this. When one model in a unit has Terror, the entire unit is considered to have Terror for the purposes of tests.

But the panic test from shooting has nothing whatsoever to do with Terror.

The arguments have nothing to do with the Hydra being overpowered and undercosted (which many people, including myself, feel that it is). They have to do with the fact that neither the specific rules for the Hydra, nor the general rules for Monsters/Handlers possess inherent exceptions to the rules for Panic.

chivalrous
21-04-2009, 10:23
Well let me ask this question then...
Say you hit both handlers and kill them..
Are you saying now, you roll for panic and monster reaction???
The book specifically tells you to take the Monster reaction table, while it doesn't say anything about panic, meaning you default to whatever the rulebook has to say on the matter.
If you can find the section in the book that states words to the effect of "Monsters are Immune to Psychology" or "Monsters are Immune to Panic" then I'll jump right on board with you.
However the rulebook default is to take a panic test when 25% (or more) of your unit is killed by shooting.



So, he guards, fights, or acts normal and also runs away????
How does that make any sense!!!
There have been no rules written for this scenario and GW in this instance failed to account for it. Make a house rule until it's addressed by a FAQ.
That makes it difficult when both handlers are killed but at no point does it say that Hydras are Immune to Panic/Psychology.



NO.. you don't do both..
According to which page of the rulebook?


I suppose if a troll charged the hydra you'd take a fear test too. The handlers themselves don't cause terror so they might run. The rules don't say the handlers cause terror. You see, it's a package.
Your Troll example is flawed. It states in the rules for Fear and Terror Liability that if one model in the unit causes Fear or Terror then it passes on it's own immunity to Fear and Fear and Terror respectively.
If you want to go a step further, even if the Hydra had Immune to Panic/Psychology it wouldn't matter because the rules also make a point that any models in a unit that are Immune to Panic, must stay and move with a unit that has failed a panic test. The handler that isn't immune to panic must still take the panic test and if the handler fails then the Hydra is foced to move along with it.


It's only with the handler getting killed that, I'd say no panic test. However, if a unit runs through them and such - that's a different story. It's because there is no way for you to have a higher unit strength to defend against it. It was the intent of GW to make it that way. I have pointed it out in various ways.
The Hydra rules state that the Hydra and Handlers are treated as a skirmishing unit, ergo they suffer panic as any other unit would. there is nothing in the rules that suggest the Hydra is treated any differently to any other model in the unit.


Apparently, on deaf ears against anti dark elf players who absolutely dislike the hydra. Not based on any solid ground but by their figments of what they want to happen.
I am a Dark Elf Player, exclusively I might add and these ears are not deaf. But any claim you make need to be backed up with more than just hope.
It's a daft situation that a Hydra should panic and run, more daft when you have to make two conflicting tests.



This whole situation goes in line with a dragon and it's rider. If the rider dies.. does the dragon panic?? it's 50% of the model? NO, it does not..
In that case you are dealing with a monster and its rider, which forms a single model unit.
Hydra and Handlers, as I've already mentioned above are a multi model skirmishing unit which follow the rules for units rather than ridden Monsters.


The arguments have nothing to do with the Hydra being overpowered and undercosted (which many people, including myself, feel that it is).
However it is one unusual-for-a-monster vulnerability for Dark Elf players to highlight as a reason for the low cost. ;)
There are a few weapons that can be used to pick off single models, Hochland longrifles and the aforemention Wood Elf item;
Spells that designate a model, such as Soul Stealer in the Dark Lore;
Template attacks may only kill handlers. Hey, think about it, anything with a flame template that' s close enough could flank the unit, flame the unit killing both T3 handlers and force the hydra to take the test on it's own Ld. in the unlikely even of it passing, it still won't be able to charge the template-toting opponent and it can only hope to score a single wound with it's breath weapon.
Score!
The Lesson here? Dwarfs should always take a Gyrocopter against Dark Elves :p

knightime98
21-04-2009, 10:29
Ok, let's try this approach then.
BRB pg. 51
Under fear and Terror immunity (the boxed in type) on the right side near bottom of page.
Paragraph 5. Now, read that...
Can you now tell me why the Handler's don't take Fear or Terror Tests? The immunity is only for riders of mounts.
So, by your reasoning the handlers WOULD take Terror test, They WOULD take fear tests and if they are outnumbered and blow it - they would run away.
There is NOTHING in the rules to say the handlers are immune to terror or fear. So, they are subject to all of it. According to the RAW...

Kalandros
21-04-2009, 10:32
The unit has a component that causes Terror, therefore the whole unit is Immune to Terror and Fear.

knightime98
21-04-2009, 10:37
So, are you saying that if the Hydra dies and the handlers live - that the handlers cause terror. So, I can charge with my 2 beast masters and you need to take a terror test. Great!

Necromancy Black
21-04-2009, 10:40
A character causing terror joins a unit. What happens?

Exactly the same as with the Hydra and its handlers.

Monsterzonk
21-04-2009, 10:50
So, are you saying that if the Hydra dies and the handlers live - that the handlers cause terror. So, I can charge with my 2 beast masters and you need to take a terror test. Great!

No, absolutely not.

People have been quite clear on this: The rules say that if a unit contains a model causing Fear or Terror, the entire unit is immune to that. However, if the Fear/Terror causing model dies, the unit again is subject to Fear/Terror.
Never, ever does the unit itself cause Fear/Terror, it's just immune to the effects.

So if your Hydra lives, the entire unit is Immune to Terror. When the Hydra dies, the remaining handlers are prone to Fear and Terror and do not cause Terror themselves.

knightime98
21-04-2009, 10:53
So, why are you having it both ways then Monsterzonk... Did you read the BRB pg.51 as I had asked.. AND then do you read the follow up post after that.
According to the RAW - the handler's MUST take Terror, Fear, and yes Panic tests..
This is straight from the rule book... The handlers are NOT riding the hydra. So, they are not immune to the effects according to the exceptions listed on pg. 51.

knightime98
21-04-2009, 10:56
The unit has a component that causes Terror, therefore the whole unit is Immune to Terror and Fear.

Pg. 51 of BRB - is where the exception comes from.. Specifically paragraph 5 of the boxed type on the right side..

No exception is given for handlers...
only riders....

Ultimate Life Form
21-04-2009, 10:58
Somehow, all this reminds me of the whole "Slannīs Guardian Rule" discussion, only that this time, there are no typos or actual uncertainties involved...

Clegane
21-04-2009, 11:03
A character causing terror joins a unit. What happens?

Exactly the same as with the Hydra and its handlers.

I agree with you. This is certainly how I have always played it, anyway.

But, out of curiosity, where is the rule for this in the BRB?

I know where the rule for fear-causing characters joining units is at. But it is in the Characters section and applies only to characters. The Hydra is not a character. The section on fear itself only addresses Monstrous mounts and their riders, not monsters and handlers.

Again, I think you are absolutely correct on the point. But now my curiosity is up and I'd like to know where the actual rule is. Is it in the DE army book?

Necromancy Black
21-04-2009, 11:04
Somehow, all this reminds me of the whole "Slannīs Guardian Rule" discussion, only that this time, there are no typos or actual uncertainties involved...

Ah...good times. :D

knightime98
21-04-2009, 11:04
No, absolutely not.

People have been quite clear on this: The rules say that if a unit contains a model causing Fear or Terror, the entire unit is immune to that.



The rule DOES NOT support what you are claiming.. RAW - read pg. 51, the exceptions DO NOT include handlers.. Only riders!!!

If you want to hack rules.. We can hack rules... You want to say they take panic tests.. then why do they not take terror and fear tests???
You have flawed reasoning and the rules support exactly what I am claiming. There is NO exception for the handlers to be immune to terror or fear. GW is infamous for this..

My big point on this is to show that GW, leaves things out. If the monster loses a handler - then I'd say that NO it does not take a panic test because it is "liken to a warmachine, a chariot, a mountrous mount w/rider". It is much closer to those things - similiar to your argument that the crew does not take Terror, Fear tests because the hydra causes Terror. You just tie the two together and make the best of it.

It is unlikely that the crew members will get hit. If they are in combat when it happens then the hydra is Immune to Psychology.

Atrahasis
21-04-2009, 11:07
knightime: You are correct that strictly by the rules the handlers would be bound to take fear and terror tests, but that by parallel with characters in units they are generally accepted not to have to do so.

That does not change the fact that they are bound to take panic tests. There is no reason to believe that the hydra or the handlers are immune to panic.

Clegane
21-04-2009, 11:08
The rule DOES NOT support what you are claiming.. RAW - read pg. 51, the exceptions DO NOT include handlers.. Only riders!!!

If you want to hack rules.. We can hack rules... You want to say they take panic tests.. then why do they not take terror and fear tests???
You have flawed reasoning and the rules support exactly what I am claiming. There is NO exception for the handlers to be immune to terror or fear. GW is infamous for this..

My big point on this is to show that GW, leaves things out. If the monster loses a handler - then I'd say that NO it does not take a panic test because it is "liken to a warmachine, a chariot, a mountrous mount w/rider". It is much closer to those things - similiar to your argument that the crew does not take Terror, Fear tests because the hydra causes Terror. You just tie the two together and make the best of it.

It is unlikely that the crew members will get hit. If they are in combat when it happens then the hydra is Immune to Psychology.

A valid point. I still don't believe that I agree with you, but I am now quite interested in seeing where the rule about "if one component of the unit has Terror, then the entire unit has Terror" comes from. I found the rules for Characters and for Mounts/Riders.

But a Hydra is neither of these, as you have said. Hopefully someone will provide a reference for the rule. I believe it exists somewhere, I just cannot find it.

knightime98
21-04-2009, 11:13
Thank you Atrahasis, finally I drive a point home. That's all, I was asking for.. Simply that GW does not address all these situations.
By contrast, you then must associate what is closest ruling they have with similar situations. It seems to me that, the Hydra closely follows all the crewed warmachines, chariots, and monstrous mounts... The BRB gives exceptions for these things.

I'm sure that my stand on this is very clear. It seems to be the case if you go strictly by RAW - that the hydra does take a panic test. However, was and is this the intent of GW. No, they didn't think of it when they wrote the book.. They thought the line where the crewmembers hide behind the bulk of the monster was enough. They also went to say that if the crewmembers croak that you roll on the reaction chart. Furthermore, it even goes on to say that the crew are not calculated for victory points only the hydra itself. They only fall just short of actually saying "immune to panic"..

edit: Immune to panic due to loss of crew - like warmachines..

EvC
21-04-2009, 11:18
No, you're still wrong knightime98- pretty sickening to see a Dark Elf player trying to claim more unfair advantages for an overpowered unit, even the chaps at druchii.net would think you're being a rules lawyer- and a bad one at that. Why don't you go ask over if you think we're just anti-Dark Elf.

Yes, the section on fear/ terror immunities is not well written, and doesn't expressly cover this situation. Perhaps by RAW the Handlers should be taking fear tests, but I see no reason to bend the rules to screw opponents over. The panic discussion is entirely separate- and a Hydra is simply not analogous to a chariot or ridden monster. It's a unit of three models, so if one dies, that's a panic check. Rules are 100% clear, no matter of smoke and mirrors from you will change that.

And clearly GW DID think of this- this is why they made Handlers so difficult to hit with shooting and magic attacks, because they felt that sniping off the handlers like that and causing panic should not be easy. However, if they felt it should be impossible, then it would have been so easy to write a rule covering it. Look at Salamanders and their handlers- one casualty from a single hunting pack, and you take a panic check there, too.

BattleofLund
21-04-2009, 11:27
It is much closer to those things - similiar to your argument that the crew does not take Terror, Fear tests because the hydra causes Terror. You just tie the two together and make the best of it.


The Hydra causes Terror, so it shouldn't take Panic tests? :eyebrows:


Don't forget that it's already Immune to Psychology from it's Frenzy knightime98! Since it has the Uncontrollable rule. Or eh, well, the Manticore, which is only on the next page from the Hydra in the Dark Elf army book, has the Uncontrollable rule. It must be what they meant when they put the rule there!

No. You are wrong knightime98.

Edit: dang this took me ten minutes to write!? EvC of course said it better.

EvC
21-04-2009, 12:07
Let's keep going with this ridiculous charade. The Hydra and handler are like warmachine crews, so don't take panic tests. Of course, warmachines cannot declare charges, so therefore the Hydra can't either. Seems like a fair trade-off to me.

Monsterzonk
21-04-2009, 12:40
Let's keep going with this ridiculous charade. The Hydra and handler are like warmachine crews, so don't take panic tests. Of course, warmachines cannot declare charges, so therefore the Hydra can't either. Seems like a fair trade-off to me.

Please let's not go there...

Alright, I think all contributors have their points, and agree with knighttime98 that GW sometimes lacks a little in the clarity department. So for now I'll set aside the rules as written and go for a more "common sense" approach.

The Hydra causes Terror, so I think the Beastmasters herding it towards the enemy wouldn't be too fussed about all those nasty things roaming the Warhammer world, as long as they can hide behind that huge, multi-headed, regenerating, fire-breathing monster.
=> ruleswise the entire unit is immune to Fear and Terror as long as the Hydra is alive.

However, I think it may be quite unsettling for these guys, if the protection the Hydra supposedly offered proves to be not enough. So when these guys actually are reminded of their mortality by a mean, tree-hugging sniper or a fat, stinking sorcerer, then they might lose their nerve pretty quickly.
=> ruleswise the unit has to take a panic test, if they lose one of the handlers.

Now when both handlers are killed, I think the Hydra wouldn't care much, but still it might get confused by the sudden lack of prodding.
=> ruleswise roll on the monster reaction table and apply the result.
I'd say in this case ignore the panic test for 66% of the unit dying, because, honestly, it's your own fault when you go to some lengths to kill BOTH handlers. Now do and deal with that rampaging beast!

I know this is by no means RAW, but to me at least it makes sense...

kramplarv
21-04-2009, 12:55
or... Chariots are killed when wounded by S7+ attack.
Should be the same to the hydra then...

Commodus Leitdorf
21-04-2009, 13:01
I'd say in this case ignore the panic test for 66% of the unit dying, because, honestly, it's your own fault when you go to some lengths to kill BOTH handlers. Now do and deal with that rampaging beast!


Why would you ignore the panic test? the two rules don't conflict.

Handlers die, you must IMMEDIATELY roll a Monster reaction test.

should the Hydra pass the test and is fine, he only needs take a panic test at the end of the shooting/magic phase. Should the Hydra go frenzy, then he doesn't have to take the test as he is immune to psychology.

Honestly, I don't see these rules conflicting...

EvC
21-04-2009, 13:02
Now when both handlers are killed, I think the Hydra wouldn't care much, but still it might get confused by the sudden lack of prodding.
=> ruleswise roll on the monster reaction table and apply the result.
I'd say in this case ignore the panic test for 66% of the unit dying, because, honestly, it's your own fault when you go to some lengths to kill BOTH handlers. Now do and deal with that rampaging beast!

I know this is by no means RAW, but to me at least it makes sense...

There's really no need. The majority of the time that the Handlers die frim magic/ shooting, the Hydra will fail its monster reaction test and two thirds of failures result in the Hydra instantly becoming immune to psychology (frenzy or unbreakable). So that either leaves the possibility of the Hydra passing the test, in which it has a chance to flee if it fails the panic check (And if it fails, it's just like the old monster reaction test failure that resulted in the monster trying to escape the battlefield: and nobody ever thought that was odd in the slightest). That or it becomes stupid and does the same.

Either way, a Hydra fleeing as a result of its handlers dying? Perfectly fitting.

Monsterzonk
21-04-2009, 13:05
Why would you ignore the panic test? the two rules don't conflict.

Handlers die, you must IMMEDIATELY roll a Monster reaction test.

should the Hydra pass the test and is fine, he only needs take a panic test at the end of the shooting/magic phase. Should the Hydra go frenzy, then he doesn't have to take the test as he is immune to psychology.

Honestly, I don't see these rules conflicting...

Granted, they don't really conflict. So I think the problem's solved! ;)

chivalrous
21-04-2009, 13:27
A character causing terror joins a unit. What happens?

Exactly the same as with the Hydra and its handlers.

The unit has a component that causes Terror, therefore the whole unit is Immune to Terror and Fear.

No, absolutely not.

People have been quite clear on this: The rules say that if a unit contains a model causing Fear or Terror, the entire unit is immune to that. However, if the Fear/Terror causing model dies, the unit again is subject to Fear/Terror.
Never, ever does the unit itself cause Fear/Terror, it's just immune to the effects.

So if your Hydra lives, the entire unit is Immune to Terror. When the Hydra dies, the remaining handlers are prone to Fear and Terror and do not cause Terror themselves.


Actually, there is nothing written in the rules about un-ridden monsters or any models in a unit conferring this immunity, only Characters.
We use the character rule because it sets a precedent but it is only directly applicable to characters.
It's become convention, without ever becoming a rule.

Daemonic monstrous characters can confer the liabilities because they also count as characters (duh;) ) as well as monsters.

I believe that an FAQ has dealt with the Kroxigor-in-Skink units but again that only sets a precedent, not a rule.

Damn:mad:

The unit still takes a Panic test though, he's not RAW'd himself out of that one yet ;)

Witchblade
21-04-2009, 15:40
If you shoot a beastmaster, the hydra is still able to use the leadership of the remaining beastmaster, right? That's still Ld8, so I don't see how that is a great problem.

Edit: *looks for ignore button for knightime*

chivalrous
21-04-2009, 15:53
If you shoot a beastmaster, the hydra is still able to use the leadership of the remaining beastmaster, right? That's still Ld8, so I don't see how that is a great problem.

Edit: *looks for ignore button for knightime*

Of course. Any reference to the Hydra's leadership assumes both handlers are killed.