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wamphyri101
20-04-2009, 21:21
Hi all. Very new to empire (first list) and was wondering some help on a 1999 army. Short 72 points atm but not many models left (like 10 knights)

Wondering how this would do?

Bsb would be with the spearmen with the other captain probably as well (or running around behind the army)

Battle wizard in one of the swordsmen units probably


1999 Empire Army (1927atm)

Captain of the Empire
Full plate, Barded warhorse, Handgun, Shield, Sword of Might, Van horsemanís speculum: 129pts

Captain of the Empire
Full plate, Barded warhorse
Battle standard bearer
Imperial banner: 197pts

Battle Wizard
2nd level, Rod of Power, Power stone: 150pts

Characters: 476pts

25 Swordsmen
Banner/Musician
Detachment 1: 6 Hand guns
Detachment 2: 8 Halberds: 253pts

25 Swordsmen
Banner/Musician
Detachment 1: 6 Hand guns
Detachment 2: 8 Halberds: 253pts

25 Spearmen
Full command, Shields
Detachment 1: 10 Hand guns: 250pts

10 Hand Guns
Marksmen with repeater hand gun
Detachment 1: 5 Crossbowmen
Detachment 2: 5 Crossbowmen: 180pts

10 Archers
Huntsmen upgrade: 100pts

Core: 1036pts

Great Cannon: 100pts

Great Cannon: 100pts

Great Cannon: 100pts

Special: 300pts

Helblaster Volley Gun: 115pts

Rare: 115pts

RainbowConnickJr
20-04-2009, 22:34
Question: Are you constrained by what models you have? The spearman block could certainly use a flanking detachment of their own. There are a few other small tweaks that would make sense. You definitely need a Duelist in at the very least the unit that the Battle Wizard is in. Making your flanking detachments as either 3x3 blocks or 5x2 blocks, depending on whether they are state troops or militia, is usually a solid setup, so it might be worthwhile to add a man or two to those detachments.

Now, you have 72 points left, which isn't a whole lot. Your basic vanilla knights unit costs 115 points, a detachment of halberdiers for your spears plus another halberdier for the other two would cost 55 points, and a Duelist would be 10 more. That's 180 points total, which is 108 we don't have. So, let's see if there's some fat we can trim.

The Captain's handgun might as well go, freeing a whopping 10 points. There are worse buys than a reapter handgun for your marksman, but it's a non-essential so maybe let's trim that for 15 more points. That's 83 points left to go by my count. Now we have to make some more difficult choices. The horses would give us 28 more points, but they serve a pretty valuable purpose. In my opinion, the real place to mine for points is the Wizard. He'll certainly serve a purpose with magic defense, but his second level and powerstone might not be enough for him to have a real lasting effect on offense, or at the very least not the sort of effect a knights unit would have. That's 55 points potentially freed up, leaving us...28 point to go. Well, the horses certainly would fit the bill. Or, the Speculum would suffice just as well, if not a little better.

So, in summation, that's the handgun, repeater handgun, second magic level, powerstone, and horses/speculum for 108/110 points, which with the 72 points you still had is enough for a 5 man knights unit, a Duelist, a 9 man halberdiers detachment and one man upgrades to make your other two detachments 9 men strong as well.

Beyond that, there's nothing that just springs out. Some would say that spearmen and halberdiers aren't as good as swordsmen, but it doesn't make that much of a difference in truth and if nothing else I like how to the models look a lot. Another 5 man knights unit would work wonders, but I'd have more difficulty finding the points. Maybe in the Huntsmen unit and the Speculum or Horses, but that's more a matter of personal choice/model options. I will say that knight units work best in pairs, though.

Hope that helps!

Kalec
21-04-2009, 01:51
Drop the wizard down to level 1, cut his power stone, and swap the VHS captain for a warrior priest. Give the WP a great weapon and the armor of meteoric iron. Get rid of the archers.

Swap the spearmen for swordsmen. Make their handgunner detachments 5 men strong. Get rid of the halberdiers completely, the supporting charge isn't nearly as good as it looks and they bleed combat res.

Now for some knights. A unit of 5 with a musician is nothing short of amazing and will give you the flanking charges your infantry need. You're going to need two, so cut into the handgunner unit with the xbow detachments as much as you need to, or axe the helblaster. I, personally, would never bother with the helblaster but others swear by it. Your call.

RainbowConnickJr
21-04-2009, 02:09
Just something I noticed, I'm fairly certain that's meant to be a Helstorm? He put the points for the Helstorm and the name of the Hellblaster.

ICEMANQ
21-04-2009, 02:33
Three cannons will make you popular :p

People have an irrational hate of cannons, despite your army not being a total gunline.

Even still, ouch;) Are you going to place the characters on horses in units? They'll feel the pain otherwise. If so, why give them a horse? Is it for giving them the ability to charge into annoying skirmisher units in front of you? if so, they'll flee and you'll be stuck in the open again..

RainbowConnickJr
21-04-2009, 02:50
The horses are for the additional +2 to armor save. You place them within the infantry units; it is a pretty common tactics. And if you keep your captains cheap, it can be fun to pop one out of a unit to pursue every once in a blue moon.

wamphyri101
21-04-2009, 20:34
Thanks for the Reply so far. I’m basically working with the models I have at hand (posted a thing a while ago as got a good deal on eBay) so till I have some money it’s all that I have. I Might be able to scrounge enough to find some replacement arms for the spearmen/halberds so I can use them as swordsmen and am thinking of getting outriders as I like them.

Sadly I’m really not a fan of knights and don’t plan to use them in any army I do (worked will for my high elves and orcs so far) so really don’t want to have to use them unless I cannot win without them.

Characters will be in the units with Duelist, bsb and WP in the middle, Duelist and wizard on one flank and other unit of swordsmen on the other flank)

Had a redo and is this any better?

1999 Empire Army (2001)

Warrior Priest
Armour of Meteoric iron, Hammer of Judgement: 140pts

Captain of the Empire
Full plate, Barded warhorse
Battle standard bearer
Imperial banner: 197pts

Battle Wizard
2nd level, Rod of Power Ring of Volans: 150pts

Characters: 487pts

25 Swordsmen
Full command
Detachment 1: 6 Hand guns
Detachment 2: 10 swordsmen: 283pts

25 Swordsmen
Full Command
Detachment 1: 6 Hand guns
Detachment 2: 10 swordsmen: 283pts

25 Swordsmen
Banner/Musician
Detachment 1: 6 Hand guns
Detachment 2: 10 swordsmen: 273pts

10 Hand Guns
Detachment 1: 5 Crossbowmen
Detachment 2: 5 Crossbowmen: 160pts

10 Archers
Huntsmen upgrade: 100pts

Core: 1099pts

5 Out Riders: 105pts

Great Cannon: 100pts

Great Cannon: 100pts

Special: 305pts

Helblaster Volley Gun: 110pts

Rare: 110pts

RainbowConnickJr
22-04-2009, 02:51
I don't know that I agree that the war priest is an improvement. Basically he all he adds is one dispell dice, then a bound spell that won't ever go through and a few points of magic items. If you must take him, you might as well swap the hammer with the bound-spell ring.

Chipacabra
22-04-2009, 06:46
I've had good results with a war priest with a modest sword (hammer) of might. The prayer is actually surprisingly useful. Either use it early to consume dispel dice, or use it last when the opponent's already used up their dice, depending on the situation. Using the 'reroll hits and misses' on my wizard seems to make my opponents use their dispel dice unwisely.

I'm a big fan of the griffon standard, rather than the imperial banner.

Finally, I think pistoliers would be more useful than outriders for you. Give them a try (You can just use your outrider models as proxies). Keep them moving fast, standing around out of the enemy's LOS, march blocking, shooting up warmachines and vulnerable units, and chasing down fleeing units.

RainbowConnickJr
22-04-2009, 18:41
The Imperial Banner is an absolute boon here, since the bulk of the army is a large block of infantry. And I do know that war priests are very useful, I'm just not certain that he has enough right now to beef up his magic phase to the point that it'll make a difference. If he found room for the Doomfire Ring, he'd probably be able to actually get some spells out between his priest and his wizard.

Pistoliers probably would be a bit more effective, but the problem is that to be really effective he'd need to find room for two units of them.

Kalec
22-04-2009, 21:43
Swordsmen detachments only need to be 9 strong, deployed 3x3. This keeps them small enough to not block your parent and can still negate ranks while taking fewer wounds than any other infantry detachment.

Give the priest a great weapon and the doomfire ring over the hammer of judgement. Drop the ring of volans from the wizard, it is horrid.

PapaSmurf
23-04-2009, 17:30
Totally agree with dropping the detachments down to 9 (3x3), I would drop the handgunner detachments and take another unit of handgunners instead.

Pistoliers trump Outriders for me, they ahve the same effective range (OR shoot 24", Pis move 16" shoot 8") and Pisotliers can do it EVERY turn, plus their not terrible at combat

your magic defense is lacking, 1 scroll is almost a must

I love the Icon of Magnus on my priest cause I fight lots of fear and I always fail that critical fear check
dropping all the missile detachments could give you a unit of knights which can serve as your hammer to the infantry anvil

Quick thoughts

PapaDmurf

CuddlyCuteKitten
26-04-2009, 13:45
I like handgunner detachments because they are small and easy to fit.

I don't think his magic phase (especially on the defense part) is as poor as you say.

He has 2 dice basic, WP gives 1 dice extra, mage gives 1 dice extra and the rod of power gives between 1-3 dice depending on need. Against magic heavy lists he can just bunker down with the rod of power because there's no way he'll get spells of, against magic ligth lists 2 bound spells +1 level 2 + powerstone +rod of power is enough to do some decent damage.

For the price he pays the magic part of the list is very decent.

I don't know if he really needs it that badly but I can agree that some sort ofmarch blocking unit like a cheap unit of knigths with a mus (pretty good if they are the only one) or a unit of pistoliers would be good with that much shooting.

I agree on the 3x3 detachments though mostly because with that many handgunners the battle line could quickly become unwieldy.

pkain762
26-04-2009, 15:27
I don't know that I agree that the war priest is an improvement. Basically he all he adds is one dispell dice, then a bound spell that won't ever go through and a few points of magic items. If you must take him, you might as well swap the hammer with the bound-spell ring.

look in the magic section of the rule book, but i'm pretty sure if you already have bound spells, that you're not allowed to add additional bound spells to that person.

and that bound 4 spell can go off.... you just need to suck some dispell dice out and there's always the occasional roll of double ones or one and a two

kain

PapaSmurf
26-04-2009, 16:28
Okay here's the thing, your going to have to move those infantry blocks and when you do the handgunners have to move to stay with 2 or 3" otherwise they lose the special detachment rules and when they move they can't shoot - the only reason that they are there in the first place. Taking them out as detachments and putting them in as individual units gives you another unit to shoot the enemy with.

As for magic 4 DD and no scrolls is asking to get you head handed to you by ANY decent magic phase and your army mashed by a serious magic list, it simply isn't enough, no where no how, sure you could save up to 3 dice then have a 50/50 chance of losing them. While I'm on about the magic items WHY WHY WHY ring of volans?????? its a 30pt ONE shot item that could wind up with a totally useless spell, you'd be better to take the doomFire ring, atleast it can shoot every turn

As I said before, you have some good anvils but absolutely no hammer to smash anything with

I play against a lot of vamps, nurgle daemons and WoC, lizards and dark elves so magic defense is somewhat critical for me

PapaSmurf

wamphyri101
26-04-2009, 17:39
As i stated at the start im new to empire so still getting a feel of what things can actually do.

For a start ive now scrapped this list because I only have half the models to make it so can try something different.

what would you take for an Empire hammer? most of the units pretty much suck.

Kalec
26-04-2009, 21:06
what would you take for an Empire hammer?

You don't.

bob_the_small
26-04-2009, 21:51
Why only 6 handgunners?
and TBH you need some magic defense so probably drop the magic items on the mage and give him x2dispel scrolls...

Atrahasis
28-04-2009, 16:41
Okay here's the thing, your going to have to move those infantry blocks and when you do the handgunners have to move to stay with 2 or 3" otherwise they lose the special detachment rules and when they move they can't shoot - the only reason that they are there in the first place. Taking them out as detachments and putting them in as individual units gives you another unit to shoot the enemy with. No, no, no.

Detachments are better than normal units for two reasons:

1. If they're within 3" they can stand and shoot at charging enemy
2. They don't cause panic in friendly troops.

This second ability is not dependant on being within 3" of the parent unit. The only downside is the inflexibility at deployment time, but seriously, in an Empire army having units that can die/flee without causing panic is eminently useful.

My shooting detachments are completely separate from my infantry blocks as soon as the game starts for the most part.


As for magic 4 DD and no scrolls is asking to get you head handed to you by ANY decent magic phase and your army mashed by a serious magic list, it simply isn't enough, no where no how

The "need" for a high magic defence is a myth. You could spend 120+ points on a scroll caddy, or you could add 20 swordsmen/spearmen/etc to your units so you can effectively ignore magic missiles and save your 4-7 dispel dice for the spells that actually matter.


sure you could save up to 3 dice then have a 50/50 chance of losing them.

So save 2. 6 dispel dice is more than respectable if you choose which spells to dispel and screen your units well.


While I'm on about the magic items WHY WHY WHY ring of volans?????? its a 30pt ONE shot item that could wind up with a totally useless spell, you'd be better to take the doomFire ring, atleast it can shoot every turn20 points.

I have to agree though, doomfire before volans every time. I only ever take that particular ring if I have 20 points left over and none of my infantry units need bulking up.


As I said before, you have some good anvils but absolutely no hammer to smash anything withEmpire doesn't do hammers. Yeah, you can spend over the odds for substandard knights in big blocks, but you're better off using several "anvils" in conjunction to win combats.

wamphyri101
28-04-2009, 18:54
cheers for the recent Advice. As I stated before though im just going to bide my time with models (just got a deal on the new steamtank! woot) so to begin with im going to try building up a 2000pt army and test it a few times and see what works and what not.

PapaSmurf
29-04-2009, 15:43
I've found that a Stank or 6 inner circle knights with a warrior priest and the war banner do just fine as a hammer thanks

Unless you plan to go magic heavy then 1 lvl 2 caster is going to do zip, you would be better served to take a scroll caddy or another fighting hero (warrior priest on barded steed for better save) rather than a substandard wizard who might (Might!!) get one spell off per game.

PapaSmurf