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View Full Version : Purging of the 1st founding, why are there only 18?



DeClaw
19-12-2005, 01:45
Of all the speculations and rumours about the 'real world' reasons for there being only 18 of the 20 legions recorded, dose anyone know the truth? And what theorys are there?

Were there 20 leed designers of rouge trader, but only 18 picked names for the legions/primarchs?

Is it a fluff reason? Or is the reason hidden in the fluff?

If anyone knows (and is allowed to tell;) ) please tell as I am sure I'm not the only one who would be interested.

Ophidicus
19-12-2005, 01:49
You might as well ask where "IT" came from. They don't tell, we ask, they still don't tell.

But one of them's obviously Sigmar. But they won't tell you that.

sigur
19-12-2005, 01:58
Let's hope they'll never tell. Sacral things like the 1st founding always contain mysteries which should never be uncovered.

Tom - Heretic
19-12-2005, 01:58
The numbers of the missing legions correspond with Roman legions of the same number who were also lost. That's probably the favourite theory as to where they got the idea from.

Despite the way the worlds are seperate now, Warhammer and 40K used to be very closely linked, as in the WHworld was in the 40K universe somewhere, and sigmar was obviously a lost primarch.
The other one was George Formby, who decided that a life of war wasn't for him and decided to ply his trade as a cheeky northern chappy of some repute instead.

Sephiroth
19-12-2005, 02:06
But one of them's obviously Sigmar. But they won't tell you that.

Doesn't it say he was born to mortal parents though?

Ophidicus
19-12-2005, 02:13
Depends what 'it' is. Where does it say that?

Sephiroth
19-12-2005, 02:28
Depends what 'it' is. Where does it say that?

I was referring to the WFB background in general on him. I'm not exactly a devoted fan of that fluff, but recall reading he was born to parents in the Unberogen tribe. Gav Thorpe wrote a short story in Inferno magazine where he saved the Dwarf King, and the men under his command referred to him as 'surpassing even his father', etc.

Also, most of the background I've read states the night of his birth was marked with the appearance of a twin-tailed comet, which the human tribes took as a sign of great portent from the gods.

Tom - Heretic
19-12-2005, 02:34
Well yeah, that's the current version - hence Gav Thorpe writing it.

look....two went missing, a big comet lands on the WHW and sigmar the young whelp jumps out and starts bashing stuff. Easy, simple, true (for a given value of true).
A problem GW has is trying to go back over the background with new stuff, which they do alarmingly often. Things like are bound to crop up when they keep changing the story.

VanHel
19-12-2005, 02:49
Sigmar isnt one of the two missing primarchs. GW has stated this time and time again.

geoffkemp
19-12-2005, 03:27
Yes it was an adminisatrive Error

damz451
19-12-2005, 03:34
there prolly legions that never found a primarch thus couldnt stabalise their geneseed and were dismantled, or that they primarchs were corrupted by chaos or something

Purge The Weak
19-12-2005, 06:04
Sources indicate that the assupmtion of sigmar being a primarch are true.

Most of the primarchs had some sort pf father to teach them during there early years. The IA of guiliman for example.

Coffee Man
19-12-2005, 08:02
This has been gone over sooo many times now. Everyone knows there's correlations between the two worlds, it's to be expected. I mean seriously, GW can't come up with original material without ripping off Lord of the Rings, Starship Troopers, and everything else out there. Do you seriously expect them to not rip off their own universes?

That said, Sigmar being a primarch still doesn't fit into the fluff of 40k. The two legions had records expunged. If Sigmar was a primarch, there's no room in the fantasy storyline for a legion to have been made from his geneseed (at least to my knowledge, i'm more up on 40k fluff than fantasy, feel free to correct me here).


The other one was George Formby, who decided that a life of war wasn't for him and decided to ply his trade as a cheeky northern chappy of some repute instead.
This however, sounds perfectly plausible to me.

Decius
19-12-2005, 08:06
there prolly legions that never found a primarch thus couldnt stabalise their geneseed and were dismantled, or that they primarchs were corrupted by chaos or something

This seems the most likely of all the theories and, unfortunately, the least exciting. GW probalby did it to keep something in reserve, plotwise. In actuality, they may have just shot themselves in the foot.

Also, I don't like the theory that the WHFB world is a planet inside the WH40K world. It just seems to cheapen both games. This may have been the intent earlier within GW, but it is much less supported now. The two games have the same inter-continuity as all 20 of the James Bond movies. Fantasy and 40k both have the chaos gods, just like all "Bond" Movies have James Bond, but these are only similarities in plot, not proof of continuity.

By the way, how old is James Bond supposed to be now? 100?

TheSaint
19-12-2005, 09:36
I thought all the legions were mentioned in a very very early Rogue Trader book, or perhaps the Astronomicon. The missing Legions should be THE RAINBOW WARRIORS and the FIRE HAWKS (or something like that).

I think the Rainbow guys were expunged due to their ugly colour scheme. And the Fire Hawks were lost in the Warp and sort'a returned as the Legion of the Damned.

But then again, I might be wrong.

Captain Ardias
19-12-2005, 09:43
The fire hawks where of the 21th founding(called the cured founding)

ankara halla
19-12-2005, 09:49
@TheSaint: You are wrong, they are both successor chapters.

As to the two legions, there has never been any official fluff written about the two missing legions and there propably never will be. As long as there's no written fluff people can go nuts trying to figure out "the reason" behind GW not writing fluff about them.
Give it a rest allready, the people writing the background for both of the universes change all the time as do the universes themselfs (sadly quite often going over allready established fluff) and that's all "the reason" there is to it.
The Roman Legions -reference is in all likelyhood the original reason why there are two missing legions in the first place.

Chaos and Evil
19-12-2005, 09:52
By the way, how old is James Bond supposed to be now? 100?

He's as old as Sean Connery.

That'd make him 134 then.

TheSaint
19-12-2005, 10:50
I am pretty sure that there is a book in which all of the 20 legions are mentioned. But we would need to ask somebody really ancient. Does Sean Connery play 40K?

Stu
19-12-2005, 11:44
Perhaps those two legions have something to do with the custodians and the grey knights and so where expunged from the normal files?

my_name_is_tudor
19-12-2005, 11:50
real life reasons? to add mystery, simple as that.

I think sigmar could be one of them, plenty of primarchs were raised by parents who found them as children. Maybe sigmar's parents just pretended they'd birthed him naturally?

Of course, it's all just base conjecture this. GW never really says one way or the other (not nowadays anyway) whether they are the same universe, merely dropping a lot of hints either way. I think it is personally, it just makes it more interesting and plausible to me. The Old Ones in fantasy and 40k could well be exactly the same species, there's no difference.

But as I said, we most likely will never know.

Griefbringer
19-12-2005, 12:05
As for the Sigmar thing, please take hold of the good old original WFRP supplement, Enemy Within (later integrated with Shadows over Bögenhafen). This states (from a totally objective, GM only, word of God - style perspective) that Sigmar was born to mortal parents, not found by them.

Also, there are no mentions of him having had abnormally fast development in his childhood (unlike most Primarchs), it was only at the relatively mature age of fifteen that he started doing great deeds.

Mind it, this WFRP fluff was published before 40K RT even came out (and thus predates primarch-fluff by even more - I do no think primarchs were mentioned before RoC and Space Marine 1st edition came out).

my_name_is_tudor
19-12-2005, 12:06
Also, the Ultramarines are 3rd founding, and Leman Russ was a mere Commander - it's not like fluff changes or anything...

Scythe
19-12-2005, 12:12
Perhaps those two legions have something to do with the custodians and the grey knights and so where expunged from the normal files?

Grey Knights were created after the Hersey if I remember correctly (together with the foundation of the Inquisition). Custodes have always been the Emperors personal guard, I don't think they are regarded as a legion.

my_name_is_tudor
19-12-2005, 12:13
Custodians aren't even marines.

Captain Ardias
19-12-2005, 12:16
Perhaps those two legions have something to do with the custodians and the grey knights and so where expunged from the normal files?

Nope. The grey knights where created after the horus heresy, because they realised that even a primarch could be corrupted by chaos. So the high lords decided to create chaos resistant space marines.

As for the custodian guard, they are the emperors personal guard and where created by the emperor to conquer terra, hence where created before the first foundings

ArtificerArmour
19-12-2005, 12:22
One's a Squat C'tan, the other Malal.

I'd lean to say that the primarchs had indeed died or were never found. What would have been their legions were sucked up into the other 18 legions. Their lack of two legions thus probably led to the creation of the imperial guard. They probably don't talk about the two dead ones - I mean primarchs dying in a non-epic battle, but from their craft landing in a sun or black hole - Impossible, Primarchs are God amongst men, only other Gods can kill them - faith in the emperor would collapse.

Stu
19-12-2005, 12:24
I wasn't sure about when the Grey Knights had been created so thks for the info.


Custodians aren't even marines.

What are they?In the fluff they are supposed to have been created by the emperor as a test when he started doing research in bio enhancement and they had his gene seed. Or did I get it wrong?

ArtificerArmour
19-12-2005, 12:31
Custodians are quasi-marines - probably not as strong, but well trained in martial arts. think sisters of battle, but with grey knight weapons.

Captain Ardias
19-12-2005, 12:35
I'm not sure, some say they are über marines (even better than space marines), but since they are the emperors personal guard they must be a lot better than regulare humans.

Griefbringer
19-12-2005, 12:45
Well, back in the RT when the Adeptus Custodes actually had stats, they had quite an impressive profile - though not quite that impressive armament.

Captain Ardias
19-12-2005, 12:48
Can you get their stats griefbringer?

Yodhrin
19-12-2005, 12:48
Custodians are quasi-marines - probably not as strong, but well trained in martial arts. think sisters of battle, but with grey knight weapons.

Actually they are generally considered to be even stronger than Grey Knights, perhaps created directly from the Emperor's DNA, rather than that of a Primarch.

Captain Ardias
19-12-2005, 12:52
Actually they are generally considered to be even stronger than Grey Knights, perhaps created directly from the Emperor's DNA, rather than that of a Primarch.

I belive that this is correct.

ArtificerArmour
19-12-2005, 12:53
I thought they were lesser than space marines - why don't they base all marines from their DNA then?

Rabid Bunny 666
19-12-2005, 13:27
because the custodians are 100% loyal to the emperor, and are there to guard him no matter what, and after the heresy they gave up their armour and donned robes whilst protecting the emperor, so unless terra was attacked, they wouldn't be going anywhere

TheSaint
19-12-2005, 13:34
The Custodes are stronger than normal space marines as stated in the Horus Heresy books. The are not considered Space Marines because unlike Space Marines they were recruited as adults. And Space Marines are inducted as young teenagers.

Rabid Bunny 666
19-12-2005, 13:39
in the heresy, marines were recruited as adults, Luther was a grown man, and Kor Phaeron would have been in his mid-twenties, its just that younger men could be indoctrinated easier, or the technology is no longer available

Kahadras
19-12-2005, 13:44
Well I have never seen much fluff about the Custodies during my time in the hobby. They are ment to be a bit mysterious IMO and the same goes for the first founding legions. I assume that the legions were created for primarchs that were just never discovered (and no I don't think Sigmar was one of them, the fluff is just to far out of alignment for that). Therefore the legions were probably just disbanded.

Kahadras

TheSaint
19-12-2005, 13:46
Luther was indeed a grown man, although pre-heresy. And I guess fluff-wise it isn't completely correct. However he was second only to Lion'el, so a great man even amongst Space Marines. He didn't receive all the bio-upgrades a normal SM would get, neither did the Custodes.

It might be true that the technology is no longer available. And therefore only childeren are recruited. Who knows?

Griefbringer
19-12-2005, 14:22
Can you get their stats griefbringer?

Well, posting full stat lines here is rather frowned upon, though I am not sure if that applies also to RT-era stuff. Anyway, I will take no chance - and the RT-era stats are not fully compatible with the current stuff anyways.

But basically the Custodes had as their minimum stat-line equivalent to a minor human hero, putting them on par with basic inquisitors, rogue traders and assassins (without synskin and other enhancements).

However, their basic equipment was not as impressive: a ceremonial spear with inbuilt lasgun, knife, protective helmet, cloak, boots and breeches.

Gavmo
19-12-2005, 15:01
Personally I dont believe that Sigmar was a Primarch. He only cruised around for 50 years or so, and when he went to the Dwarves he was an old man. (I think:eyebrows: )

And it is fairly obvious that Chuck Norris was the other lost Primarch. He must have roundhouse kicked himself back into our time to flog off Total Gym's.:evilgrin:
...In the name of the emperor of course.

ankara halla
19-12-2005, 15:18
The Custodes Guard indeed come from the first batch of genetically engineered supersoldiers ever created by the Emperor and are indeed stronger than normal space marines and they pre-date the Primarchs in their creation.

After the Primarchs were lost to the Emperor he found out that by using the genetic material of the primarchs the creation prosess of a space marine could be increased more than a tenfold and though this prosess had it's weaknesses such as mutations and the recruits had to be children it was nevertheless implemented becouse after the loss of the primarchs the imperium was in dire need of legions of supersoldiers (time was of essence becouse of to the birth of slaanesh) to conquer the galaxy with.

After the Heresy the normal space marines were still created by the new found method of using the primarchs genetic material but the Custodian Guard were still, as they allways had been, created by the original method which while a whole lot slower (thus limiting their numbers) produces superior results.

The conclusion here is that the Custodian Guard would hand the Grey Knights their silver plated bottoms on a platter (as they are created with the new method), but since there are no stats for them this is and will remain a matter purely of fluff discussion. Gameswise I'd personally use GK stats to represent them nevertheless.

As to the Custodes' genetic material, there is none. If anything the Emperors DNA is used as a basis for the GK, but the custodes' creation process requires no outside catalyte to create them.


This is all according to RT, 2nd ed. and 3rd ed. fluff, I haven't read the HHCGM books nor do I ever intend to. Sabertooths fluff shall forever remain solely in their own game IMHO.

my_name_is_tudor
19-12-2005, 16:05
custodians were a test, a test that went very well. And I'm sure the Emperor would have created the marines in the same method, but the process was too lengthy and uneconomical to do on any large scale. Making a marine takes something like 4 years, which isn't very long, and with Gene Seed it can be done on quite a large scale.

People like Luthor by the way, were never full marines. They were humans elevated to a similar (but not quite as good) level of fitness/whatever to marines, through lots of extra implants and stuff. They wouldn't have the same control over their extra functions as marines, and probably wouldn't have stuff like sus-an and things.

Apollyon
19-12-2005, 16:12
Bjorn The Fell Handed? An Eldar, one of the Fallen, Cypher, any CSM. The list goes on !




I am pretty sure that there is a book in which all of the 20 legions are mentioned. But we would need to ask somebody really ancient. Does Sean Connery play 40K?

Apollyon
19-12-2005, 16:16
Luthor was a full marine and it is possible to turn adults into marines the reason they prefer youths it more for indoctrination rather than rejection.



custodians were a test, a test that went very well. And I'm sure the Emperor would have created the marines in the same method, but the process was too lengthy and uneconomical to do on any large scale. Making a marine takes something like 4 years, which isn't very long, and with Gene Seed it can be done on quite a large scale.

People like Luthor by the way, were never full marines. They were humans elevated to a similar (but not quite as good) level of fitness/whatever to marines, through lots of extra implants and stuff. They wouldn't have the same control over their extra functions as marines, and probably wouldn't have stuff like sus-an and things.

my_name_is_tudor
19-12-2005, 16:17
i would dispute that. They use young candidates so they can grow with their implants, and have psychological understanding and control over their new bodily functions.

Brothergrimm
19-12-2005, 17:22
We all seem to forget that the hersay stoped the great crusade and there has never been a drive to start it again so it is possiabel that the lost primarchs are still out there somewhere.

So maybe in WH 40K 12 ed there will be a campainge where the templars try to subdue a system protected by one or both of the lost primarchs.

If the HH art books a canon the emporer only started to produce alpha legion marines a couple of decades before alphy was found.

Apollyon
19-12-2005, 17:32
There is old fluff about whole guard regiments getting marinification as adults.



i would dispute that. They use young candidates so they can grow with their implants, and have psychological understanding and control over their new bodily functions.

mfv
19-12-2005, 19:21
In the LIBER CHAOTICA(did I spell that right?) a guy from
the Warhammer universe discribes chaos SM and Defilers.
I can`t seem to find it I think I used it as TP but
its stuff like this that leads people to belive that
WFB and 40K are the same universe:cheese:

my_name_is_tudor
19-12-2005, 20:21
also remember the amazonians who carry weapons that fire explosive bolts, that aren't magic, and swords that gleam with a field of electricity.

Snakebite
19-12-2005, 22:46
I wanted to be a Primarch, but X-Factor had an opening...

Tynesh
19-12-2005, 23:18
I always enjoyed the idea I came up with on Portent. The Custodes are in fact a race of super-men created as a Homo Superior by the Emperor for several thousand years prior to conquering Terra. They were created by controlled breeding.

But there you go...another fanciful theory!

Cheers

Tynesh

boogle
19-12-2005, 23:39
well considering the HH fluff is written by Alan Merritt, it is heading the way of being considered as canon

my_name_is_tudor
19-12-2005, 23:46
i bloody well hope not.. sigh

boogle
20-12-2005, 00:09
some of the stuff is cool and plausable, other stuff (the Fate of Ferrus Manus), isn't

Lord of ???
20-12-2005, 11:18
About Custodes i dont remember where but i do remember reading that although the Custodes are stronger than a Space Marine they dont have that lovely lengthy Life Span that Marines do.

TheSaint
20-12-2005, 11:29
About Custodes i dont remember where but i do remember reading that although the Custodes are stronger than a Space Marine they dont have that lovely lengthy Life Span that Marines do.

That sounds plausible if they are adults. Maybe the long-life span gene doesn't work with them?

librerian_samae
20-12-2005, 11:51
I always assumed that the current custodes were still the origional genetic experiments created with the emperors own genetic material, a kind of precursor to the primarc project.

Tiberius Frost
20-12-2005, 13:31
also remember the amazonians who carry weapons that fire explosive bolts, that aren't magic, and swords that gleam with a field of electricity.

Where the heck did you read that??

On the other hand, there's the hilarious power armour and lightning claws you could get after the Dark Shadows campaign.

boogle
20-12-2005, 13:40
its the Amazon Mordheim warband i believe

Helicon_One
20-12-2005, 13:45
I love the delightfully cynical suggestion I've seen made (can't remember who or where) that there were only actually 18 Primarchs and Legions to begin with. Some official fiddled the requisition orders so that 20 Legions worth of tanks, armour and bolters were produced, and skimmed off the excess kit to make an absolute killing on the black market, or disappeared and set up his own personal empire out there somewhere.

Tim

my_name_is_tudor
20-12-2005, 14:23
Where the heck did you read that??

It's from the Amazonians article from UK WD.

VanHel
20-12-2005, 14:36
I can't find the quote, but it says ALL the primarchs were reunited with their legions. So the two other legions obviously did something so horrible that they're records were deleted. I'm guessing they were neutral during the Heresy.

Commissar von Toussaint
22-12-2005, 00:14
Wow, lots of theories out there.

According to the Codex Imperialis, the two "missing" legions were the 2nd and 11th.

These do not correspond to any Roman legions I know of that were lost. The Teutoberger Wald disaster wiped out three Roman legions (XVI, XVII and XIX, IIRC), not two. I know the 19th was one of them, can't remember the other two, but they were all in the teens.

Now, as to the age of space marines and their creation, modern space marines use the slower method of gene maturation and have to be implanted in young people who grow with their implants. This is slower, but produces more loyal and stable marines.

The Great Crusade legions used a faster method whereby full-grown adults were implanted and thus "converted." The results were obviously disastrous.

The Custodes are (from what I've seen) a glorified and elite Imperial Guard that defends Terra. The Companions are the Emperor's bodyguards and may well have the "space marine plus" powers.

Why did they leave the gap?

Why not?

It offers a plot hole that they could always come back and fill later.

Given the way GW is rewriting the fluff these days, I fully expect the "lost" legions to be found and marketed in an exclusive online offer for the bargain basement price of only $10 per figure.