PDA

View Full Version : What does Grail Reliquae do for Bretonnians?



Ultimate Life Form
21-04-2009, 13:21
Strangely, there are 3 armies that almost never get mentioned in any of these forums: Dwarves, Beasts, and Bretonnians. Why?:confused:

Because of that, I thought it a good idea to start a Bret thread. I donīt play Brets, but whenever I read their army book, Iīm a little confused. Now that even veteran Bret players have admitted the list is boring, the question I always had is all the more urgent:

Is the Grail Reliquae worth anything?

Being a LM player, I always expect stuff like this to do all sorts of cool things, but it doesnīt! Basically, weīre looking at a bunch of stat-wise goblinesque models without much skills or anything else. Peasants, nothing more. They have Ladyīs blessing? Cool, who doesnīt? Like it would matter anyway! They have high Ld? So what, any peasant with a Knight around has as well. The only thing that sets them apart from normal peasants are their stubbornness and the hatred, but being so weak, it doesnīt make much of a difference. In addition, they sure are pricey! They cost twice as much as your standard peasant without actual additional skills. 9 pts, for crying out loud! This already places them in the mid level pointswise.

So is the GR worth taking? Weīre looking at a unit of glorified 9 pts Goblins who drag a corpse around. Iīm interested in the opinion of veteran players.

Malorian
21-04-2009, 13:52
Due to the size of the lance you can pack a lot of units over a small area thus making it very easy to overload one flank.

The problem is that lances have huge flanks and if you get caught then you're entire line falls apart. BUT if you had a nice stubborn unit of grail reliquae to guard your flank then your knights can go ahead and do their job.


In a shooty army you can also use them to set up counter charges. The grail reliquae moves up while you pepper the enemy with arrows and trebuchets and when the enemy charges the stubborn peasants you counter with the knights.


Personally however I just like to have a bunch of knights ;)

chivalrous
21-04-2009, 13:54
4+ armour save and Stubborn at Ld8 means that except against high strength units they aren't going to loose the CR too quickly and they aren't going to run very often.
Don't be so quick to dismiss hatred either. The unit will always get the full number of attacks from the reliquae and might find an extra attack or two from the front rank depending on how many get cut down by the opponent.
They're a very useful unit to use to defend a flank or occupying a terrain feature (or table quarter).
A reasonably sized unit, unless you're unlucky with your break tests, will hold up an enemy unit for most of the battle, where peasant units would flee after the first round.

I never took an army without it when I was still using my Bretonnians.

Ultimate Life Form
21-04-2009, 14:04
The unit will always get the full number of attacks from the reliquae and might find an extra attack or two from the front rank depending on how many get cut down by the opponent.


See? Thatīs why I asked! Itīs easy to miss these things if you have no experience with a unit!:D

Rolo Ramone
21-04-2009, 15:19
I like that unit, but itīs clear that the reliquae does not fit in an army with pnly cavalry. But if you play an army well balanced, with units of men-at-arms, itīs one of the best options. Also, it always get the atention of the enemy, they try to shoot it or just evade it.

MTUCache
21-04-2009, 15:24
From what I've heard on Bretonnian forums and podcasts, I do think that it's generally agreed that the Grail Relique is a pretty weak selection in their army.

Not only is it more expensive points-wise and is a relatively minor upgrade over standard Men-at-arms, but it takes up a special slot that could otherwise be used for Mounted Yeomen or Peg Knights.

As for the reason Dwarves, Beasts, and Bretonnians don't get talked about very often....

I think Dwarves is because it's a fairly vanilla army. There's a couple of generally accepted builds, and there's really no question as to the strong and weak choices in the list, so most Dwarven armies end up looking fairly similar.

Likewise, with the Beasts, they're a very broken army at the moment. Taking away DoC and WoC out of the BoC list has left them rather impotent. There's not that many Beast players around right now, although I would expect them to pick up fairly quickly when rumors of their book start popping up.

Brets, like Dwarves, have relatively little good variety in their list. The good units are pretty obvious to anyone who's played them for a while, so there's only a couple of standard builds that don't warrant much discussion anymore.

Most other armies have enough selection in characters/magic-items and good selections in their army lists to at least give you a bunch of different types of builds.... which leads to confusion, and therefore discussion. When everything is cut and dried quickly, there's not much to talk about anymore.

Ultimate Life Form
21-04-2009, 15:41
Most other armies have enough selection in characters/magic-items and good selections in their army lists to at least give you a bunch of different types of builds.... which leads to confusion, and therefore discussion. When everything is cut and dried quickly, there's not much to talk about anymore.

So... is this good or bad then?

MTUCache
21-04-2009, 15:55
So... is this good or bad then?

Depends on if you like that/those particular armies/builds.

Brets are still a pretty competitive army out there, and there are lots of Bret players who will tell you that they wouldn't consider fielding any other army. So for them it would be a good thing.

For me, personally, I would prefer an army that I could own 3k points worth of models for and play a half-dozen different ways, like Empire, DE, O&G, etc. Brets seem, to me at least, to have a fun/friendly build (peasant-army), a medium/average build (hard chars/limited magic/plenty of lances), or an over-the-top cheese build (peg-knight army). That's it. There's really no other builds that you can use to be competitive or friendly. So, personally, I don't really consider them an army I would enjoy collecting.... but that's just me.

Keller
21-04-2009, 15:56
One nice thing that people overlook about the Relique is that it grants the peasant the blessing of the lady as well. They become 4+ AS, 5/6+ ward infantry, which isn't too shabby (atleast at the time it was written.)

Our local Bret player uses the Relique pretty often; it seems to make a nice anchor to help support the M@A's and back up the knights.


As for the other armies....

Dwarves are a bit on the boring side, when it comes to armies. Their limited movement forces a defensive game, but they are rock solid. Their biggest problem is that they cannot catch whatever they break in combat, so the unit just rallies and tries again. Because they can't completely kill units off with good consistancy, they have trouble getting tons of VP's. Round that out with little variety w/in the army, and you can guess why people don't play them as much.
Dwarves are a very dependable army. You will seldom lose big, but you also won't win big because of their drawbacks. Expect a lot of draws and minor's.

Beasts are just rather weak these days, about on par with Ogres. Our local Beast player does well with them, but I don't think they'd make a good tournament build (compared to other armies.) Since most players that take time to use these forums (and others) tend to be competetive and look for advice for winning tournies, Beasts are one of the less represented ones online.

The Beast Walks Among Us
21-04-2009, 22:05
Stubborn

There's your answer. The Reliaquae is a cheap, stubborn, durable unit that is great for tying up enemy blocks to let your knights get in position to charge. Since so many armies have unbreakable, immune to psych, or stubborn troops, a straight ahead knightly charge usually doesn't work anymore. Bretonnians now rely on careful manouvering of units and coordination of charges to be successful. Having a unit which can tie up a section of the battlefield for a couple turns really frees up alot of your more expensive units to get favorable charges. Never leave home without a unit of at least 15+.

Jedi152
21-04-2009, 22:09
It's a lovely model and fits the background perfectly. Do models need to win games to be included in lists?

Ultimate Life Form
21-04-2009, 22:15
Do models need to win games to be included in lists?

In my opinion, no, but if you look around here, you get the impression thatīs the case.:eyebrows:

Candleshoes
21-04-2009, 23:23
For more balanced armies who use spread numbers of shooting, line infantry, and knights, the GR is an excellent line anchor. Their points cost isn't for killing power, speed, or armor... quite the opposite... they are there to stand their ground against horrendous casualties and live long enough to reign in a counter charge with a knight unit.

They are a unit that compliments 'certain types' of armies, don't get me wrong, and are widely sought for by some, and treated like trash by others. People who take them, use them in combination with the rest of their force, are the ones to hear from. Many take a larger block of around 24 GR, and form them up with 2 units of 24-30 men at arms with space inbetween for lance formations to fit/ skirmishing archers/ Trebuchet line of sights.

Having this multi phased battle line is tough for an opponent to deal with, since the peasants are so cheap, it is almost not worth the risk getting caught up in combat, or getting caught out of position after a kill, and the Reliquae adds not only another target, but forces your opponent to second guess where he might strike.