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Foegnasher
21-04-2009, 18:47
been thinking about changeing the way my oldblood is kitted out, i have been useing the blade of realaties and the enchanted shield. but it's got my opposition kind of rolling thier eyes. if i am not going to ty to take out big monsters and characters, the next best thing is to turn him into a rank and file mook killing machine:

with the sword of +2 attacks (50 points) the shield of +1 attack (30 points) and the carnasaur trinket (15 points) i can give him up to 9 attacks when frenzied, that combined with the carnasaur's 6 frenzied attacks should be able to mulch just about any ranked unit in a head on charge, provided he attacks first.

has anybody else tried this build? how did it work? what are the prevailing thoughts on the big scaley chainsaw?

Whitesox
21-04-2009, 20:07
doesnt he suffer from frenzy when the carnasaur gets it anyway?

if so give him the talisman of protection

Foegnasher
21-04-2009, 20:37
doesnt he suffer from frenzy when the carnasaur gets it anyway?

if so give him the enchanted shield or talisman of protection


i havent been playing it that way. i think that's one for the FAQ.

Gaargod
21-04-2009, 20:42
Nope, it very clearly says in BRB under character mount psychology, that if any part of the mount suffers from frenzy, the whole model does. Can't give you a page reference off by heart, but basically he gets the carnie's frenzy.

Give him some protection instead

Ultimate Life Form
21-04-2009, 20:51
How does a frenzied Carnosaur have 6 attacks?

Despite that, it cuts through Wood Elves and Dryads like paper.

Necromancy Black
21-04-2009, 22:33
The Carnosaur pendent provides no additional benefit at all if he's riding a carnosaur. As people have said, frenzy applys to mounts and riders no matter which one has it.

Also, you only get 5 attacks with a frenzied carnosaur, not 6. Apart from that, those 14 attacks should definitely do some damage.

Death Disco
22-04-2009, 01:21
I had absolutely no idea the mount's frenzy applied to the Oldblood. I've been attacking too few times since July 2004, apparently. Unless this is new in 7th ed.

walo
22-04-2009, 06:47
i tried carny with BoR and ES, kills anything on charge, but IMO the main disadvantage is less protection and that you canīt get him in good combat position if the opponent plays it right...
the second version was with wardrums, mirror shield and burning blade... its better in that way, that he cant be marchblocked and you can surprise your opponent with running behind his lines, he has better protection too, at least from magic missiles, but havenīt used it yet, but the killing potencial is alterent in comparison with BoR
third im thinking about version without carnosaur, so he is cheaper, with cold one or even horned one heīs mobile and can hide in a unit a then charge... another possibility is on foot, have you any ideas about equipment if these two variants are used:?

SiNNiX
22-04-2009, 19:29
I actually have tried this build, Foegnasher. Through trial-and-error, I have found this combination to work best for a carnosaur build:

Sword of Striking
-This enables your Oldblood to usually hit on a 2+ which is almost like having the "all attacks hit automatically" rule.
Maiming Shield
-This gives you a 2+ armour save (with light armour of course) and an additional attack, meaning you'll have 6x S5 attacks that hit on a 2+ against almost any regular model.
Glyph Necklace
-This gives you your much-needed 5+ Ward Save. I always find it very important to have protection because I've found that it's actually not as hard as you'd think to kill a Lord riding a monster with a 6+ ward save.
Bane Head
-This is an optional upgrade, but I like it in case I do come into contact with my opponent's general and find myself in a challenge against him.

Spirit
22-04-2009, 19:44
I actually have tried this build, Foegnasher. Through trial-and-error, I have found this combination to work best for a carnosaur build:

Sword of Striking
-This enables your Oldblood to usually hit on a 2+ which is almost like having the "all attacks hit automatically" rule.
Maiming Shield
-This gives you a 2+ armour save (with light armour of course) and an additional attack, meaning you'll have 6x S5 attacks that hit on a 2+ against almost any regular model.
Glyph Necklace
-This gives you your much-needed 5+ Ward Save. I always find it very important to have protection because I've found that it's actually not as hard as you'd think to kill a Lord riding a monster with a 6+ ward save.
Bane Head
-This is an optional upgrade, but I like it in case I do come into contact with my opponent's general and find myself in a challenge against him.


Ok, the maiming shield is a separate attack, so i doubt it gets the +1 to hit.

Also, 2+ ward save vs the first wound is better than 5+ ward i find. 5+ just doesn't pass enough.

My favourite build is revered blade of tzunki + charm of itzl. Has out performed any other combination i've tried by miles.

Ultimate Life Form
22-04-2009, 20:52
Well, I think thatīs what makes LM so awesome, itīs the plethora of possible item and unit combinations which many other armies lack. As with units, there probably is no "best" Carnosaurus build. Everyone can use what they like best. So great was the foresight of the Old Ones that they would create a toy for everyone!:D

SiNNiX
23-04-2009, 00:45
Ok, the maiming shield is a separate attack, so i doubt it gets the +1 to hit.

Also, 2+ ward save vs the first wound is better than 5+ ward i find. 5+ just doesn't pass enough.

My favourite build is revered blade of tzunki + charm of itzl. Has out performed any other combination i've tried by miles.

Maiming shield is an attack that uses your WS to hit and thus benefits from +1 to hit. Additionally, 5+ ward save works well enough for me.

kardar233
23-04-2009, 05:40
Firstly, the Maiming Shield. It specifically says that the extra attack does not benefit from any magical items. I don't see what the discussion is about.

Secondly, the 5+ ward is better than the 2+ on first wound when you're talking an Oldblood except when you're facing people with Killing Blow. The math shows that since you'll get a 5+ ward on all three wounds, you're essentially assured to save one, which puts you equal with the 2+ ward, and then you take into account that if you save one, you will get another chance to save. Verdict: Against DE, take the 2+. Against anyone else, go for the 5+.

SteelTitan
23-04-2009, 07:14
My favourite build is revered blade of tzunki + charm of itzl. Has out performed any other combination i've tried by miles.

Blade of Tzunki, that is the +1S + no AS allowed right...

...somehow i fail to see how this is better than the blade of realities/piranha blade/etc

Might be my noobness :P

Spirit
23-04-2009, 10:18
Firstly, the Maiming Shield. It specifically says that the extra attack does not benefit from any magical items. I don't see what the discussion is about.

Secondly, the 5+ ward is better than the 2+ on first wound when you're talking an Oldblood except when you're facing people with Killing Blow. The math shows that since you'll get a 5+ ward on all three wounds, you're essentially assured to save one, which puts you equal with the 2+ ward, and then you take into account that if you save one, you will get another chance to save. Verdict: Against DE, take the 2+. Against anyone else, go for the 5+.

The 2+ ward is also better against cannons, stone throwers, bolt throwers, all of which I find LOVE to deviate towards my old blood.

And sinnex, just because the maiming shield uses the old bloods WS does not mean it gains +1 to hit. It uses his base S and is a separate attack.

If you used a sword of might you would not argue that it gains +1 S, so why would the sword of striking be any different?

Braad
23-04-2009, 10:19
@ Death Disco
You haven't been playing it wrong for that long, it's a 7th edition thing, and specifically did not apply in 6th.

Spirit
23-04-2009, 10:21
Blade of Tzunki, that is the +1S + no AS allowed right...

...somehow i fail to see how this is better than the blade of realities/piranha blade/etc

Might be my noobness :P

It gives you reliability. 3+ to hit, 2+ to kill, reliably, against most troops. s5 will be wounding a lot of things on 3+ and giving them a 4-6+ save usually.

The pirana blade is only good vs characters or in challenges, but the carnosaur does the same job, the blade of realities (while good) only works well against specific opponents, even then it's a one trick pony, if it fails, your old bloods probably dead. Using the cheaper weapons allows you a save so your much more likely to get 2 rounds of attacking into something.

Ultimate Life Form
23-04-2009, 13:10
It gives you reliability. 3+ to hit, 2+ to kill, reliably, against most troops. s5 will be wounding a lot of things on 3+ and giving them a 4-6+ save usually.


Youīre right. But it completely depends on what enemies you face the most. I usually play against Orcs, Tomb Kings and Wood Elves. These guys have no armor save whatsoever, especially against S5. Heīd kill your standard rank and file even without any equipment. The blade would be wasted for me. Iīd rather give him the Blade of Realities to deal with the nasty stuff, since, seriously, the standard stuff can be steamrollered with Stegadons just as easily. I wonīt waste my general on such lowly troops. Thereīs nothing more satisfying than a Treeman with 4 wounds left failing his Ld test...

AAAAAAAAAaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh.....:D

Wolf 11x
23-04-2009, 14:26
@Ultimate

We could argue all day about which weapon is better in a given situation.

However, the Blade of the Revered Tzunki and the Blade of Realities are the only two worth taking in a consistent, take-all comers list. Pre 7th, the Blade of the Revered Tzunki was the only weapon worth taking. I used it the entirety of 6th with great results.

The Blade of Realities lets the Oldblood easily take out all sorts of odd creatures that the army might have trouble dealing with otherwise. Varghulfs, Hydras, Trolls, etc. However, you need to be sure of what you can and can't cause to fail a LD test. The rulebook helps a lot with this against armies you're not used to facing.

The Blade of the Revered Tzunki is the best at taking down any sort of troops.

The Sword of Striking & the Scimiar of the Sun Resplendent are nice, but both suffer from the "weak" S5. -2 to your opponents armor save isn't very impressive. I would never take the Maiming Shield & Scimitar combo. It simply isn't as good as it sounds on paper. The 20 magic points leftover doesn't leave you much for protection either.

I also find the Piranha Blade to be rather useless, unless you're using a Bane Head to take down a 3 wound character. Again though, S5 won't really get the job done against an enemy character.

In the end, there is no reason to kit out your Oldblood to have mass attacks against lightly armored enemies. Your Skinks, Saurus, and Salamanders should be handling those quite capably. Let the Oldblood take down enemy Knights, Monsters, etc.

walo
23-04-2009, 14:40
i think the main problem isnīt the weapon taken, but to get it into appropriate combat... smart opponent can avoid your 450 point general for less points used.. against some armies you will hide him turn or two behind terrain or units...

Wolf 11x
23-04-2009, 14:47
He's a 14" moving monster. How big of a board and how much terrain would it take to avoid him? :D

Biggest weakness if being forced into a frontal charge. 5 static res is annoying.

Spirit
23-04-2009, 14:49
i think the main problem isnīt the weapon taken, but to get it into appropriate combat... smart opponent can avoid your 450 point general for less points used.. against some armies you will hide him turn or two behind terrain or units...

A smart lizard will have him in combat turn 2, turn 3 against any target on the board. Good luck avoiding it.

Unless im missing something, how would you avoid it?

MarcoPollo
23-04-2009, 15:28
A smart lizard will have him in combat turn 2, turn 3 against any target on the board. Good luck avoiding it.

Unless im missing something, how would you avoid it?

There are plenty of ways to stall big nasties from getting into your lines. It comes down to target priority. Screens, tarpits, and supertanks can stall any big nasty from getting into the lines. With a proper screen set up, and the ensuing frenzy that occurs from the carnosaur it is quite possible to lead him around by the nose for most of the game.

If the lizard player is smart, he will avoid charging such screens thus stalling his movement.

If he doesn't watch his movement and gets stalled, he can be charged by a plethora of things that can hurt or atleast tarpit it. Besides, even if the charging unit lasts more than the initial combat round and doesn't allow him to move in his next movement phase then that to will stall his movement.

As a lizzie player, and as a regular opponent against lizzies carnosaurs can be trouble if there is no plan to deal with it. But they can also be incredible point sinks (but as point sinks go they are better than most).

Personally, the best set up for an oldblood is without the huge expense of the carnosaur and just using a cold one. Spend less and make him more survivable (hm... seems like a no brainer decision to me.) In Judo, the idea is to use the size of the opponent against him.

Wolf 11x
23-04-2009, 16:31
Personally, the best set up for an oldblood is without the huge expense of the carnosaur and just using a cold one. Spend less and make him more survivable (hm... seems like a no brainer decision to me.) In Judo, the idea is to use the size of the opponent against him.

And do what with him once he's on a Cold One? Stick him with a unit of Cold One Knights? Stupidity could completely screw you and you have now added him to a flanking unit that doesn't need any more punch. If you stick him with Saurus, you're wasting a lot of points and had might as well have taken a Scar-Vet. Do you really want a 245+ point lord moving 4" per turn in a unit that has to wheel / change formation / etc?

Carnosaur is the way to go. Otherwise, avoid an Oldblood entirely. A Slann or Cold One riding Scar-Vet are better alternatives.

MarcoPollo
23-04-2009, 21:24
And do what with him once he's on a Cold One? Stick him with a unit of Cold One Knights? Stupidity could completely screw you and you have now added him to a flanking unit that doesn't need any more punch. If you stick him with Saurus, you're wasting a lot of points and had might as well have taken a Scar-Vet. Do you really want a 245+ point lord moving 4" per turn in a unit that has to wheel / change formation / etc?

Carnosaur is the way to go. Otherwise, avoid an Oldblood entirely. A Slann or Cold One riding Scar-Vet are better alternatives.

It is true about the scar-vet. But to say that a Carny is "the" way to go is completely false.

so you suffer from stupidity. Keep him in a unit of saurus with spears or keep in a skrox unit or whatever you like. But investing alot of points in a monster IMO is not efficient.

walo
24-04-2009, 06:49
There are plenty of ways to stall big nasties from getting into your lines. It comes down to target priority. Screens, tarpits, and supertanks can stall any big nasty from getting into the lines. With a proper screen set up, and the ensuing frenzy that occurs from the carnosaur it is quite possible to lead him around by the nose for most of the game.

If the lizard player is smart, he will avoid charging such screens thus stalling his movement.

If he doesn't watch his movement and gets stalled, he can be charged by a plethora of things that can hurt or atleast tarpit it. Besides, even if the charging unit lasts more than the initial combat round and doesn't allow him to move in his next movement phase then that to will stall his movement.

As a lizzie player, and as a regular opponent against lizzies carnosaurs can be trouble if there is no plan to deal with it. But they can also be incredible point sinks (but as point sinks go they are better than most).

Personally, the best set up for an oldblood is without the huge expense of the carnosaur and just using a cold one. Spend less and make him more survivable (hm... seems like a no brainer decision to me.) In Judo, the idea is to use the size of the opponent against him.

totally agree, ...
you need to make old/carny worth its points and there are many possibilities for opponent to avoid it... marchblock, diverse with cheap units, or just keep units that can be hurt out of his charge move and field of view... if you want take good charging position, often you have to place him in very exposed position vulnerable to enemy fire or hard hitting units... iīm still testing the carny version, but im thinking about the cold one or horned one version in skrox unit,...

Staurikosaurus
25-04-2009, 04:56
How exactly is the carnosaur less survivable? The Carnosaur is not a large target anymore, has more wounds, does more damage and is easy to hide in units such as fast moving rnf skinks etc. As well, if he charges out of a unit, the screening skinks/saurus/whatever don't have to charge with him. Additionally, according to http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2220025_Warhammer_FAQ_part2_Feb_2009 , your opponent won't be able to use a stand and shoot response at your carnosaur lord.

walo
25-04-2009, 05:20
How exactly is the carnosaur less survivable? The Carnosaur is not a large target anymore, has more wounds, does more damage and is easy to hide in units such as fast moving rnf skinks etc. As well, if he charges out of a unit, the screening skinks/saurus/whatever don't have to charge with him. Additionally, according to http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2220025_Warhammer_FAQ_part2_Feb_2009 , your opponent won't be able to use a stand and shoot response at your carnosaur lord.

sorry but i donīt understand... yes he can go with a RnF unit, but he can still be picked as a sepparate target against enemy shooting, and why wonīt get the opponent stand and shoot:?

Staurikosaurus
25-04-2009, 06:06
read the FAQ

SiNNiX
28-04-2009, 14:12
Finally got my email reply from GW (took about a week). This was copied and pasted from the email they just sent me. Their response is in blue.



"Does the +1 to hit from sword of striking apply to extra attacks that are

not simple +1 attack +2 attack situations? For instance, does an attack with

Maiming shield (Lizardmen) benifit from the +1 to hit?

It would apply to the maiming shield."

Shamfrit
28-04-2009, 15:11
Strength 5 attacks also suffer from \omg STALLZED\ as far as I'm concerned whenever you run into let's see...Orcs...of any description. Grave Guard, Tomb Guard, Saurus and Temple Guard. Black Knights, Chaos Knights, Chaos Warriors, Dwarves of any description...

Add in armour to that and a -2 to modifier is not not enough to count on kills, I mean, with a flank, you might get away with it. But counting misses and failed wounds vs. T4 It's not an assured bet. Blade of revered Tzunki is much better. Quelle, infinitely better, then the 'Chainsaw' Carnosaur. It's a good idea but won't work against enough foes to count.

I'm biased to having him as a character/large target/armour killer though.

MarcoPollo
28-04-2009, 15:16
read the FAQ

What page is the faq on the stand and shoot assertion made? I can't seem to find it.

EvC
28-04-2009, 15:30
The FAQ question refers to a general situation of a character charging out of a unit. It doesn't cover every situation, such as if the character only comes into range after leaving the unit, or if the character can already be picked out. In those cases, you hit the character.

I quite like the idea of the Carnosaur being used to kill armoured and multiple wound things, and the Lord taking 7-8 S5 attacks to kill rank and file. Is nice! A lot of people just load on all the most powerful stuff- but how often are you going to face something that the Blade of Realities will kill, that a Carnosaur won't? (And remember chaps, before you say "Bloodthirster", he might have Obsidian Armour and even if he doesn't, then it's still LD9 with 2-3 tests being taken on average- not enough to be sure of killing it)

Death Disco
28-04-2009, 16:10
Finally got my email reply from GW (took about a week). This was copied and pasted from the email they just sent me. Their response is in blue.



"Does the +1 to hit from sword of striking apply to extra attacks that are

not simple +1 attack +2 attack situations? For instance, does an attack with

Maiming shield (Lizardmen) benifit from the +1 to hit?

It would apply to the maiming shield."

My book is presently 4 000 miles away, but I am 99% sure it says explicitly that only strength increases from other weapons don't apply to the Maiming Shield-all other bonuses carry over just fine.

Altaramere
29-04-2009, 05:10
The exact text regarding the Maiming Shield:

Shield. The Maiming Shield confers +1 Attack to the bearer. This additional attack is worked out using the base Strength of the wielder, and counts as magical.

So basically, it is a Strength 5 attack (Strength 4 on a Skink Chief) that works exactly as all other attacks, except that the strength cannot be modified in any way.

Staurikosaurus
29-04-2009, 11:52
What page is the faq on the stand and shoot assertion made? I can't seem to find it.

It's on page 4 of the most recent FAQ for the main rulebook (the one I linked to)

MarcoPollo
30-04-2009, 15:35
That is certainly a good bonus. But the bonus also applies to a old blood on a cold one too.

My assertion that a cold one is a safer bet than a carny comes from the targeting restrictions/look out sir rules, and the added armor save with respect to the point cost.

A carny cost (IIRC) 200 pts. While a cold one costs significantly less. It can hide from shooting alot easier as the base is smaller, and doesn't suffer from frenzy. I will acknowledge that the carny is much more dangerous (it should be for 200 pts). But, I am a huge fan of MSU tactics, so when I see anything over 300 pts, I begin to see it as a point sink. I prefer to spread the points around more evenly, and earn attacks and wounds that way. The statistics behind big nasties illustrates that those few wounds and attacks, all be it high quality attacks, still possess the ability to wiff and put a significant amount of points at risk. This risk does not go unnoticed on the table, as the decision to invest the big boy into the fray is considered much more delicately than if those points were spread around.

Plus I am also talking about 2k points games. Obviously, with the more points the game is played at, the more viable the carny gets. You have the luxury of dumping more eggs into a basket.

That being said, the carny does have a significant role that cannot be filled quite easily. If you want to take down other big nasties/armored cav by using combat, then there is no better substitute than the carny. Hands down the best in the book for that role.

And it is a personal choice of mine to not go that route. As a result, I most certainly have to work harder to kill off big nasties. The funny thing is, I have a carny model, but do not use much.

SiNNiX
30-04-2009, 17:41
What is this "eggs in a basket" metaphor I keep hearing??? :confused:

Rabid Bunny 666
30-04-2009, 17:57
It means placing everything good into one thing, it means that you have a good chance of it being succesful, but if it goes wrong (dropping the basket) then you've lost everything.

Spirit
01-05-2009, 13:48
How exactly is the carnosaur less survivable? The Carnosaur is not a large target anymore, has more wounds, does more damage and is easy to hide in units such as fast moving rnf skinks etc. As well, if he charges out of a unit, the screening skinks/saurus/whatever don't have to charge with him. Additionally, according to http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2220025_Warhammer_FAQ_part2_Feb_2009 , your opponent won't be able to use a stand and shoot response at your carnosaur lord.

I fail to see the point of hiding him in a unit.

Stand and shoot rules aside, he can still be targeted within the unit because he is US6, so that's at least one whole round of shooting at him you've just given then enemy, probably 2, in order to stop one unit standing and shooting?

Wheres the logic? Just hide him behind a unit of skirmishers and wait an extra turn, no shooting risk.

Ultimate Life Form
01-05-2009, 14:04
That is certainly a good bonus. But the bonus also applies to a old blood on a cold one too.

My assertion that a cold one is a safer bet than a carny comes from the targeting restrictions/look out sir rules, and the added armor save with respect to the point cost.

A carny cost (IIRC) 200 pts. While a cold one costs significantly less. It can hide from shooting alot easier as the base is smaller, and doesn't suffer from frenzy. I will acknowledge that the carny is much more dangerous (it should be for 200 pts). But, I am a huge fan of MSU tactics, so when I see anything over 300 pts, I begin to see it as a point sink. I prefer to spread the points around more evenly, and earn attacks and wounds that way. The statistics behind big nasties illustrates that those few wounds and attacks, all be it high quality attacks, still possess the ability to wiff and put a significant amount of points at risk. This risk does not go unnoticed on the table, as the decision to invest the big boy into the fray is considered much more delicately than if those points were spread around.

Plus I am also talking about 2k points games. Obviously, with the more points the game is played at, the more viable the carny gets. You have the luxury of dumping more eggs into a basket.

That being said, the carny does have a significant role that cannot be filled quite easily. If you want to take down other big nasties/armored cav by using combat, then there is no better substitute than the carny. Hands down the best in the book for that role.

And it is a personal choice of mine to not go that route. As a result, I most certainly have to work harder to kill off big nasties. The funny thing is, I have a carny model, but do not use much.

Well, thatīs your opinion, and I accept it. Everyone has the right to customize his army as he sees fit (you however seem to think only your point of view is right). If you look back to the original post, Foegnasher asks you to come up with alternative ways to kit up his Carnosaur and how it played out, and not to convince him he should leave the beast at home. I feel this is not the right place for your anti-monster-crusade.

MarcoPollo
01-05-2009, 16:37
If you look back to the original post, Foegnasher asks you to come up with alternative ways to kit up his Carnosaur and how it played out, and not to convince him he should leave the beast at home. I feel this is not the right place for your anti-monster-crusade.

Did you even read the OP. Here is his question.


has anybody else tried this build? how did it work? what are the prevailing thoughts on the big scaley chainsaw?


My thoughts (opinions) are clear, and on topic. Sorry you feel that way Ultimate Life Form.

And just to be clear, I am not on a "anti-monster" crusade. I am expressing my opinions like anyone else on the web.

Foegnasher
02-05-2009, 14:48
just to be clear. i love the carnasaur. I think he is much more fun than the Hypnotoad. i think my opponent is going to have an easier time dealing with him than a tooled up slaan with saccompanying bodygaurd. and last night, in my mega battle, that beautiful scaely son of a gun won the game for me. I think in the final analysis the blade of realaties is fun, and kind of gimmicky, but not maximum killy. i like it, there are more effective builds, but i think it is cool.

SiNNiX
02-05-2009, 15:10
You guys are putting too many eggs in one basket. Put your eggs in several smaller baskets so that they're lighter and not so hard on your back. Besides, if you drop your basket of eggs then Mom's gonna be super mad and you'll ruin Easter.

Thought I'd bring this thread back on topic. :)