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Zikan
22-04-2009, 01:46
So, my friend is starting Warriors of Chaos and I play Vampires (to moderate success). I've had about 15 games and am around 10-5 and all of my losses have been to this friend, albeit with his current army of high elves (null stone hurts vamps).
Anyway, onto the purpose of this thread: I humbly ask for help and strategies in my endeavour to finally defeat him with my vamps.

Makarion
22-04-2009, 01:51
Unless he is playing magic-heavy, you should be able to tarpit his chaos infantry and cavalry, then use your own cavalry and perhaps wraiths for a flank charge.

Zikan
22-04-2009, 01:59
One of the other things I think he'll probably be taking is a dragon, and possibly the -1+ save juggernaut lord.

jax40kplyr1
22-04-2009, 03:39
WoC suffer just like any other army that isn't sporting lots of dispel dice against a VC army. He can kill alot with his knights or warriors, but with the average VC list pumping out 8 or 9 PD (alot more in alot of lists), he can raise them back just as quick.
You really only need 2 spells - Invocation and Dance. Tie him up in the front, dance a unit into his side or flanks.
If he takes the uber dragon or juggernaut - raise zombies and invoke them up to a large unit size. With your powerdice, you can literally tie him up the entire game.
Another combo - run graveguard in a large block with a Wight Lord regen BSB. Give them the banner of the barrows. Throw the helm of commandment on your vampire lord - have him bunkered in a unit directly behind the grave guard. When you get into combat, you'll be hitting on 2s (3+ from the WS7 from the VC Lord and +1 from the banner). Arm them with great weapons, cast dance in combat to give them ASF - he's going to be looking at 5+ AS (against warriors using HWS combo).
Lots of tricks out there - VC are one of the most adapable and nasty armies out there.

Witchblade
22-04-2009, 12:46
If he's smart, you should expect loads of screened khornate knights.

W0lf
22-04-2009, 16:29
Yep and the best way to counter them = flanks and vanhels.

I find its not too hard to break khorne knights as after they lose combat they are usually auto-broken. OFC Ghouls are far superiour to skeletons vs Chaos knights.

Another not is that zombies = epic fail vs khorne knights. Hell their horses are hitting on 3's killing on 2's with 2 attacks...

Witchblade
22-04-2009, 18:06
Auto-break knights? They cause fear. If you can hit them in the flank, they will break regardless of course.

BTW, broken and fleeing khornate knights are so unfluffy it just hurts my eyes looking at them. After losing all their dignity, I find it amusing to use them as bait, since they can now flee from charges. My opponents never expect it.

W0lf
22-04-2009, 18:38
Oh yeah....

amazing how i forgot they cause fear and i play WoC..

Wow thats embarrising.

Peregijn
22-04-2009, 20:58
Oh yeah....

amazing how i forgot they cause fear and i play WoC..

Wow thats embarrising.

nah you switcht from chaos to vamps, so you're more like a halfling..
a halfling vampire who loves chaosgods...
sorry for the bad joke....

just dont use khorne... its verry good but if you get lokt in combat and the vamps start raising a new armie in you flanks that isn't good.
i haven't played against vamps yet but i will be playing with slaanesh. you cant lose that imuum to psychologie and against an whole armie that causus fear you'll need it.
also remeber that chaos knights have magical attacks, they can kick the asses of any ethereal units he wishes to bring againt you

(i have a feeling that i am confusing something here)

Witchblade
22-04-2009, 21:04
Oh yeah....

amazing how i forgot they cause fear and i play WoC..

Wow thats embarrising.
I actually forget it all the time in battles, because most opponents either cause fear themselves or are ItP. A friend of mine who plays TK actually forgot his army caused fear, because he never gets to use it. ^_^

MarcoPollo
23-04-2009, 15:51
The best bet is to raise lots of zombies and vanhel them. Use the sombies as screens. Raise a small unit out front of his lines on an angle. And then pump them up later. This will cause his advance to stall and then you use your superior vanhel's to dance around your screens and hit them. They are tough, you better make sure you can handle armor. So having a couple of nasty hammer units is important too.

CaliforniaGamer
23-04-2009, 17:53
WoC is fairly good match up for VC. With the correct list it should be fairly straightforward.
Pick one of 2 routes:
either a fast hard hitting cavalry set up with black knights, bloods or wolves etc supported with wight king drak bsb+hitty vamps perhaps with a vamp lord with red fury/dreadlance

OR

a "receiver" type set up that catches enemy charges in large, fat, resilient infantry units which would allow follow up flank charges for you from Vargulfs, wraiths (perfect for the job) or even a black coach.

Zikan
23-04-2009, 20:27
Thanks for the comments so far. Unfortunately I don't own a black coach :( but if I start losing hard against him, I think I will be picking one up. So basically the same basic strategy as fighting bretts? Just tarpit and win through attrition/flanks?

Any other way I could tool my lord aside from the Helm, Skull Staff, MotBA, Forbidden Lore, and the +1 to invoc casts?

MarcoPollo
23-04-2009, 21:30
I'm not too fond of the black coach against WoC. With all the strength 7 out there for WoC, you gotta be careful with it. Plus something like a hell cannon just loves to munch on chariots.

Zikan
23-04-2009, 23:44
Even with its 4+ ward? I feel like I would be able to keep it safe enough. It's just so much damage that thing can do on the charge, not to mention the chance of it being able to fly...

CaliforniaGamer
24-04-2009, 02:55
I'm not too fond of the black coach against WoC. With all the strength 7 out there for WoC, you gotta be careful with it. Plus something like a hell cannon just loves to munch on chariots.

You arent dangling the coach out there like a slab of ribs in front of a pit bull to be charged.

Its hanging way in the back, sucking up the occasional PD (eventually become ethereal perhaps) and counter charge when your enemy is tarpitted amongst zombies and crap.

MarcoPollo
24-04-2009, 16:17
Don't get me wrong. I like the black coach. All its tricks are great fun. But against WoC, there are so many ways of getting strength 7 hits on it.

1) Exalteds/lords with flails, on discs or whatever mount you like.
2) Tzeetch magic missles can reach st7
3) Hell cannon
4) Dragon Ogres

And the psychology of chaos is quite capable of handling terror.

Plus the best WoC I see are ones with an MSU base with solid magic support. And given the fact that the BC can't flee will make it more vulnerable.

Saying that, I have had the black coach be totally dominant against WoC too. I had to get a bit lucky a few times (with ld tests). And smart generals play it as CaliforniaGamer suggests.

Against WoC, I just see it having alot of weaknesses for the points you pay for it.

Zikan
25-04-2009, 19:30
Fair enough, I won't be taking it the first game anyway as I don't own one.
Any other suggestions? I'm looking more in the side of tactics and less of 'what units to take'.

Griffery
29-04-2009, 00:41
WOC are extremely weak magic wise so if you mass some necromancers and maybe a level 4 wizard lord, you should be fine

Witchblade
29-04-2009, 02:27
WoC are weak magic wise? LOL!

Magic defence is average, I'll give you that, but overall, WoC magic is one of the best in the game.

Griffery
29-04-2009, 02:56
I didn't mean they have weak spells but it is difficult for them to obtain power and dispel dice.

Kill-Freedom
29-04-2009, 03:41
I once played a game, and i had a unit of 10 skellies charge by chaos knights, put the helm of command on them, so he was hitting on fours, he failed to kill many and they survive only to hold up for a charge into the flank by my blood knights

Pray to the dice gods before you play........

As for warriors of chaos magic, its only strong if they spend alot of points on it, then you really dont have much other things to worry about, cause the points the spend on trying to beat you in the magic phase is taking away form there army size

Save your dispel dice for pandamenio, or however it spelt

wingedserpant
29-04-2009, 18:51
Thanks for the comments so far. Unfortunately I don't own a black coach :( but if I start losing hard against him, I think I will be picking one up. So basically the same basic strategy as fighting bretts? Just tarpit and win through attrition/flanks?

Any other way I could tool my lord aside from the Helm, Skull Staff, MotBA, Forbidden Lore, and the +1 to invoc casts?

Just be careful when flanking warriors with zombies. They might end up giving them more combat res.

Chaos are very good at attrition themselves.

Kill-Freedom
29-04-2009, 20:55
Just be careful when flanking warriors with zombies. They might end up giving them more combat res.

Chaos are very good at attrition themselves.

Yeah zombies blow........... LOL cant even beat skaven slaves :(

Zikan
30-04-2009, 04:05
Well guys, thanks a lot for the advice. The game went down today at 2250 a side. My list was (a lot of it is actually due to what models I own, so be a little bit nicer ;) ).

Vampire Lord - 450
Master of the Black Arts, Dark Acolyte, Lord of the Dead
Crown of the Damned, Helm of Commandment, Book of Arkhan

Vampire - 195
Dark Acolyte, Avatar of Death
The Cursed Book, Dispel Scroll

Vampire - 200
Walking Death, Infinite Hatred
Flayed Hauberk, The Gem of Blood

Wight King BSB - 170
Barded Steed, The Hand of Dust

3x10 Skeletons - 300 (Each of the vampires have one)
FC on all

2x5 Dire Wolves - 80

20xGrave Guard - 290 (Wight king)
GWs, FC, Standard of Everlasting Death

5xBlood Knights - 360
FC, Royal Standard of Strigos

Varghulf - 175

Battle Report on the way.

Zikan
30-04-2009, 04:23
The board had a river running almost all the way through the middle of it with 2 buildings toward each end. This effectively split the board into 3 seperate battle lanes. I deployed my main force (3x skeletons, and the GG unit) in a straight line with my lord's bunker unit of skeletons in the back, the GG on the right side next to one of the buildings, and a Dire wolf unit on the left. One the far right flank I deployed my Varghulf, and my Blood Knights screened by the other wolves.




His list was something like:
Chaos Lord on juggernaut
MoK, Chaos Runesword, Crimson armor, favor

2xTzeentch sorcerers on horseys

3x5 Knights of Khorne

3x4 Marauder Horsemen
Flails

3xDragon Ogres
GWs

2x warshrines of tzeentch






He deployed his warshrines, jugg lord, drogres, 1 knight unit and 1 marauder unit on my right. And deployed with the rest of his stuff (apart from 1 sorc in a unit of marauders which took the far left) centrally.

I'll try to keep this brief,
Chaos 1) Moves everything up, holds back slightly on my right flank. Sorcerer miscasts and loses magic level, flickering fire, and 1 wound.

VC 1) Move dogs up to march block on both flanks. On my right flank I move my dogs with their backs to the board edge but in charge range of his khorne knights and lord (either exposing their flank to both BKs and Varghulf if they don't overrun the dogs, or make them overrun off the board :D). Magic phase sees me raise both my skeleton units (not my lords) up to 15-20 (can't remember), I cast a 4 dice Gaze at a knight unit but it does nothing. I also raise a unit of 9 zombies on my left side where my wolves were at first.

Chaos 2) Knights, Lord, and unit of Marauders all charge my dogs with their backs to the board. His far left unit of Horsemen try to charge the zombies I just raised for easy VPs (there is only 9 remember) as he is march blocked by my dogs, but his ld7 viking cavalry are too scared (failed on a 9). Everything else moves up. Magic was shut down again (I think...). In the shooting phase he gives his lord 2 rolls on EotG from the shrines: +1T, and +1 LD. I just remove the dogs that were charged by his Lord, Knights, and Marauders and he elects to not overrun with everything but fails his ld test on his knights so they go 7" which lands them right at the very edge of the board, but not off it.

VC 2) Now this is where things get sticky, since his lord, his drogres, and his marauder horseys are withing LOS and charge range of my BKs. I end up charging his drogres with both BKs and Varghulf. They flee and instead my BKs hit the lord :cries: (in case you didn't check, his lord now has 7 WS9, S6 attacks and his jugg has 3 WS5 S5, he also has a 0+ save). My Varghulf ended up in position to charge his lord next turn. My only other charge is with my left side dogs in the flank of a marauder horsemen unit (the unit who was too scared to fight zombies). The rest of my movement phase is my marching my GG/BSB unit straight toward a unit of Knights with a Sorc (I'm now about 2" away from them), and I protect their left flank with the 2 Skele/Vamp units in a staggered formation.

In the magic phase I open with a Winds of Undeath that absolutely RAVAGES his army (he fails to dispel my 18 with all of his 4 dice). I take a wound off 2 Marauder Horsemen, 2 Knights, and 1 wound off of a Drogre. I placed the hosts to the right of my GG. I raise my skeleton units up more, and bring the zombie unit to 17. Finally I use the book to get my GG into combat with his knight/sorc unit (it breaks :cries:), then I use The Hand of Dust and roll 6 hits, 2 randomize to his sorc, and..... I fail to wound with all 6 hits. Great.

Not to worry, my Vamp Lord uses his helm on my GG unit, the Wight king KBs (with +1 for 1 overkill wound) his knight champion, and my GG KB another 2 more bringing the knights down to 1 + the Sorcerer. He hits back with both and kills 1 GG. I win combat by a ton and he's breaking on snake eyes, and fails but escapes by 2" (not like I care). In the dreaded combat of his Lord and my BKs the dice gods seem to be on my side as I roll 2 hits on his lord, then reroll for another (Strigos banner), wound with all 2 (wounding on 3s remember his EotG +1T) and he fails both of his 4+ saves! Woo! This apparently was not tolerated by the Khorne Lord as he proceeded to tear the insolent vampire knight a new you-know-what with +4 overkill bonus. However that means that it was a tie combat as I outnumbered and had a standard, AND it just so happened I took a musician. Which means not only do I not crumble, but the lord loses his frenzy as well. (He passed his break test with ease). On my left flank my hounds kill one marauder horseman, the unit breaks, and is caught by the undead doggies.

Chaos 3) He charges my skeleton unit with the Gem of Blood vamp in the front with a unit of 4 knights (1 was lost to my wind of undeath), and in the flank by a unit of marauder horsemen. No rank bonus... fack. He rallies his fleeing knight/sorc, and his Drogres who remain facing the same way (they are looking hungrily at the flank/possibly rear of my GG unit. He turns his knights around who overran despite the Khorne lords ld10 (EotG... 2 warshrines can be broken). And his sorcerer who was on his own charges the rear of my wolves (he wasn't scared of 'em!).

Magic doesn't happen again.

In combat his Khorne Lord cleaves 2 BKs in half, and shrugs off the pitiful S5 Knights' return attacks. Meaning he loses combat again by 1 due to musician (outnumber, standard). His Chaos Knight Champion challenges in the Vamp/skele combat, and is immaculately beheaded by the Gem of Blood Vamp (oddly enough, he failed to even wound the vamp, so I didn't need to even use it), with +1 overkill bonus (<3 Infinite Hatred). The rest of that combat is knights and horsemen hacking at WS7 skeletons. 4 more skeletons crumble leaving me with ~10. His lone Sorcerer kills one wolf, and 2 more crumble.

VC 3) I declare my GG into his knight/sorc duo, and my varghulf into the rear of his Dogres (as he left this open when he decided to face my GG, not the massive bat-thing). I also flank his knights with my other skeleton/vamp unit. At this point he surrenders. Yay!




This game taught me a lot and I'm really thankful for a) luck, and b) the ideas you guys gave me. Ill keep you updated with my unholy crusades against chaos.
Thanks a lot! :)

Althwen
06-05-2009, 12:38
Holy cheeseness...

I have only played against VC a couple of times now, but as a WoC general myself, I can say that your opponent's army doesn't get any credits for being any fun.... Does the term 'fun of the game' ring any bells here?

Zikan
07-05-2009, 04:02
Heh, not in my gaming group, and certainly not with this particular player.
Every single game he plays (be it with high elves, chaos, eldar, or tau) he takes the absolutely hardest list possible.

Sometimes he changes it up, but only to avoid being countered by taking the same lists.

Kalec
07-05-2009, 04:31
Maybe your friend will learn that chaos lords are trash someday, and that nurgle is always better then tzeentch for mages.

My_Idea_Of_Fun
08-05-2009, 01:37
1.) Hmmm all those chaos knights and and marauder horsemen, such shenanigans are really uncalled for. I mean thats almost as bad as... playing vampire counts...

2.) Only little girls dont fill up their core and special choices with chaos knights and marauder horsemen.

3.)Zikan you should take a zombie dragon. It takes less skill and I bet it would make the game go quicker.

Sevitan
08-05-2009, 01:40
Maybe your friend will learn that chaos lords are trash someday, and that nurgle is always better then tzeentch for mages.

Well for low level mages maybe, but I'd rather have my disc and gateway on my Lord.