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Sedge
22-04-2009, 15:37
So has anyone used this monster of a hero?

His price tag does seem like a lot but you sure do get a lot of bang for your buck.

+++Edited by The Warseer Inquisition to remove points values and rules+++

Very hard to kill. (Can your Might points bring this result down?)
Charge and move like flying monster.
And Lvl 2 Command spells :eek:
Move to a flank, Cast light of valar, then blinding light. Charge d6+8" normal non command formation (hope they fail terror test at -1). Heroic Duel, then fight 4 +6 dice add battle skill dice and glaive +1 dice. Butcher unit! :cool:

As long as he can be protected from some enemy archer fire early in game, he should be awsome. :D

What have you elven players found so far? Does he live up to expectations?

Faeslayer
22-04-2009, 15:41
I'm pretty sure you can only use might on your own rolls. Your enemies would be able to use their Might to influence a Hard to Kill roll of their own, if that's what you mean.

He is hideous! I just wish he moved as fast as a normal horse.

I have yet to use him, but on paper he's glorious (pun intended).

Sedge
22-04-2009, 16:23
I thought that was the way very hard to kill modification swould work.

As for movement, doesn't he move like a flying monster? How far is that? I was thinking 20" but that was warhammer:eyebrows:

Emissary
22-04-2009, 16:32
Flying monsters all list their movement. There isn't a standard fly distance. In Glorfindel's case, he can "fly" 8". Flying monters can ignore other formations when the move and charge and also have a bigger modifier to their charge distance dice. Flying monsters also get extra attacks against infantry and non-flying monsters.

Hoster
22-04-2009, 19:21
In the games I've played with him, he is only let down by his low (for a monster) strength. High courage armies lower his potential also, due to their low chance to fail terror check.

Axis
23-04-2009, 00:29
I've used him twice. The first time i played him really badly and he didnt do much. The second game he killed heaps. a formation of crossbow urukhai, an isneguard troll and sharku's raiders. He also added his magic to the whole piece. He is quite powerful. As someone mentioned his S4 isn't the best, however, with orc, spirit and troll bane it isn't nearly so bad!!

The only thing he has sucked at so far for me is charging. No joke he has rolled about 5 1's for his charge out of his 7 charges. If not for the i would be able to use his might for more useful things. I rate him!

thorgrim
28-04-2009, 22:33
I use him regularly and offer the following advice. Avoid line of sight from enemy magic users when ever possible (Sunder Spirit and Visions of Woe are brutal) and any unit that has Spirit Grasp as his main weakness is his courage of 5. If hes used right he can be devestating but if used wrong or against a good opponent his abilities are limited.

Biel496
02-05-2009, 05:43
Does he get bonus charging attacks like a flying monster or just the move/charge distance?

Axis
02-05-2009, 07:45
I think just the move/charge.

JHK
02-05-2009, 15:18
I don;t think thats the case. His rules state that he "moves and charges" like a flying monster.

Emissary
04-05-2009, 11:47
Right, but it doesn't say he "fights" like a flying monster. There are separate rules for how a flying monster charges and moves on pages 34 and 43 in the movement and flying sections of the rules. Remember, moving and charging are 2 separate things and you actually have your movement value and your charging value. This isn't where it states that flying monsters get the +6/2 attacks later in the fight section.

I'm inclined to say he only gets the +1 attack for charging as he is a monster, not a flying monster but that he gets a D6+8 charge value like a flying monster.

Mors
06-05-2009, 04:08
I would argue that his charge is a flying monster charge which meets the condition in the fight section for the +6 attacks - the conditions seem to be based on the type of charge. This is also how it is played at the LGS - doesn't make it right but seems to be the common opinion locally and no one disputes it.

Also I wonder if his courage is actually a misprint considering every other eleven unit can have courage 6 by just adding a captain.

Axis
07-05-2009, 04:51
Yeah i wondered about his courage.. but then Dain has only courage 5 too which is stupid for a dwarf king!

It doesn't say glorfindel fights like a flying monster so he only gets the attacks of a monster. The only way to come to the conclusion that he gets +6 attacks on the charge is to actively interpret a lot of things in non-standard ways. The conditions of the +1/+6 attacks is not the type of charge but the type of model (inf, cav, monster, flying monster). It only says glorf moves and charges like a f.monster not that he fights. So i do not think it is reasonable to claim +6 attacks..

Just take the simplest and most natural interpretation.

He is good in any case.

p.s. btw there is also the approach some take which is, in situations where the rule isn't 100% clear, to always choose the option that is least beneficial for you. That way it minimises bias and means that if the faq falls on the other side it is no problem to adjust.

Mors
08-05-2009, 06:42
The conditions of the +1/+6 attacks is not the type of charge but the type of model (inf, cav, monster, flying monster). It only says glorf moves and charges like a f.monster not that he fights.


I think this is the area our interpretation differs on. I don't have the book at hand but I believe the first coloum of the table refers to the type of charge - infranty, cavalry, flank etc. It then in brackets highlights the unit types typical for some of these charges. The primary consideration for the attack modifiers is not the type of unit but the type of charge. A flank charge has the same negative modifer regardless of unit type as it is a flank charge.

The point is that Asaloth(?) changes the charge type for Glorfindel from that of Infrantry to Cavalry Charge (flying monster) - so hence the +6 attacks. Again no book at hand but Glorfindel is pretty unique in that he has a wargear item that changes his charge type from his base unit type.

Again this is my reading.

Axis
08-05-2009, 16:08
I do not think that is how it reads. Pg 47 is the table you refer to.

It certainly groups two types differently 'charging (infantry and monsters)' and 'cavalry charge (cavalry and flying monsters only)'. However, under both the condition given is 'the company charged this turn'. It makes no mention of a type of charge, it just says the type of unit. It calls the two things differently but the conditions are the same. So I think it follows that it is the units type that determines whether it is +1 or +6.

I might also point out another thing. If Glorfindel has the +6 dice on the charge how is he different from a flying monster? It seems that they would have just classed him as a flying monster, or said Asfaloth: due to swiftness etc etc Glorfindel is treated as a flying monster. Now i know it isn't great to draw conclusions like this since GW is renowned for inconsistency in book writing and they often do not choose the best wording but i thought this is a point to consider.

Quannum
08-05-2009, 23:54
The clue is in the name, people:

"CHARGE BONUS"

GLorfindel moves and charges like a flying monster. Ergo, he gets a charge bonus appropriate to a flying monster.

Sigh....lawyers.....

Q

Emissary
09-05-2009, 02:29
Where is "charge bonus" even listed? A "cavalry charge (cavalry and flying monsters only)" is what is listed on page 47 for the combat modifiers.

You move in the move phase, charge in the charge phase and fight in the fight phase. Flying monsters are allowed to: 1) move over terrain and formations while they move but cannot enter defensible terrain or impassable terrain (p34). Flying monsters: 2) ignore other formations and terrain while the charge and have a charge value of D6+8" (p43). Flying monsters: 3) get a combat modifier of +6/+2 if they charged this turn. The rules state that Glorfindel moves and charges like a flying monster but says nothing about him fighting like one. If he got all three, why wouldn't they just be simple and make his classification a "flying monster"? I still don't see where in the rules it states he gets #3.

I think people are getting messed up by fantasy/LotR SBG where charging and moving are in the same movement.



GLorfindel moves and charges like a flying monster. Ergo, he gets a charge bonus appropriate to a flying monster.

Sigh....lawyers.....
You're making the assumption that A+B=C when there isn't a clear correlation. There is a very reasonable argument against it.

Axis
09-05-2009, 06:27
Good post Emissary. You put forward the point of view i hold in much clearer english.

Mors
09-05-2009, 08:18
Why is it a "charge bonus", because you only get this if you "charge in the charge phase". The whole premise on getting any modifier (except Battle skill or if Disordered) is based on your charging an enemy formation and is why the conditions are "Charging" and "Cavarly Charge". Units are then listed in brackets that identifying what type of charge action their charges normally fall into. Glorfindel has a special rule that changes his normal monster "Charging" action to a "Cavalry" action. Also the "Unstoppable Charge" entry at the bottom of the table refers to a 6 being rolled for the charge range in the charge phase providing an additional D3 attacks modifer in the fight phase. Again this is an action that happened in the previous phase. This to me says there is a direct correlation between the charge action in the charge phase and the applied modifer in the fight phase.

In the charge phase Glorfindel charged like a flying monster which meets the "condition" for getting the +6. If you say that this action in the charge phase does not apply in the fight then you should never claim the "Unstoppable Charge" benefit or really any other charge bonuses - you dont get these for just being in a fight.

So why not just make him a flying monster? Well this would then have an impact on other scenarios that the developers may not want to have effected. Consider that at the moment if Glorfindel charges he gets the +6, but if he GETS charged by a cavalry unit then they get the +6. If Glorfindel was a flying monster then cavalry charging him would only get +2. So his unit type does have an impact in other areas.

Axis
09-05-2009, 14:47
Why is it a "charge bonus", because you only get this if you "charge in the charge phase". The whole premise on getting any modifier (except Battle skill or if Disordered) is based on your charging an enemy formation and is why the conditions are "Charging" and "Cavarly Charge". Units are then listed in brackets that identifying what type of charge action their charges normally fall into. Glorfindel has a special rule that changes his normal monster "Charging" action to a "Cavalry" action. Also the "Unstoppable Charge" entry at the bottom of the table refers to a 6 being rolled for the charge range in the charge phase providing an additional D3 attacks modifer in the fight phase. Again this is an action that happened in the previous phase. This to me says there is a direct correlation between the charge action in the charge phase and the applied modifer in the fight phase.

I don't think this is a very good interpretation of the rules. The conditions are not 'charging' or 'cavalry charging'. Those are the names of the bonuses. The units in brackets are the units that the rule applies to. It doesn't say anything about 'normally'. Glorfindel does not have a rule that changes his normal charging action into a cavalry action. He has a rule that says he moves and charges like a flying monster. This means he can go over units and has a much bigger charge range. In the charge phase, the only role a unit's type has is to determine how far it charges (and flyers are allowed to jump units/terrain). Everyone has the same type of charge, different types have different rates of charge.

There is definitely a correlation between a charge action and applied modifier in the fight phase but only if that action is the fulfilling of a condition. In this case it is. It fulfills the +1 attacks condition but not the +6 condition (since glorfindel is not cavalry or a flying monster)

The condition for bonus attacks for charging is the same. That is, you charge. You get +6 if you are cav or flying monster, you get +1 if you are infantry or a monster. Glorfindel is a monster so he gets +1.
I can see how you can interpret it the other way but i don't think that is the intended way of reading it nor is it the way the rules are written.

As to your unstoppable charge point. I don't think it works. It says the condition for unstoppable charge is rolling a 6 for your charge value. That is fine and simple. The condition for bonus charge dice is just 'the company charged this turn'. The +6 dice only applies to cavalry and flying monsters (it says 'cavalry and flying monsters only'). Glorfindel is neither of these so he doesn't get it.

To put it simply.
A company gets the +6 dice (assuming charging infantry) iff
i) The company charged this turn
AND
ii) The company is Cavalry or Flying Monster.

Glorfindel only satisfies condition (i) so he gets +1 dice.

Until it gets FAQ'd then i would strongly recommend playing glorfindel in his least powerful rules interpretation. I play elves and i am doing this so you can't say i'm just an elf hater or something.

p.s. I realise i've repeated myself a few times. I can't be bothered editing it so it is as succinct as possible. Sorry.

moar barmu
12-05-2009, 23:24
I think that any interpretation that separates the act of charging from the charge bonus is a problem. If Glorfindel can charge as a flying monster and move like a flying monster, when generally only flying mosnters can mvoe and charge like them, then why does he not get the charge bonus. He "counts as" as flying monster for these other thigns and no one complains, but he cannot "count as" a flying mosnter for a charge bonus? That makes no sense at all to me. Additionally the bonus he gets is a charge bonus and as such counts as part fo the act of charging. Since he "counts as" a flying monster for charging purposes, he "counts as" a flying mosnter for the purpsoes fo bonuses. Therefore, he gets the darned cavalry charge bonus. Stop rule lawyering jsut to inflate your own egos people! He is clearly intended to count as a flyign monster for everything related to movign and charging, despite he technically not being a flying monster.

Axis
12-05-2009, 23:49
I disagree. I think he is clearly intended not to fight like a flying monster. The reason no one complains about him counting as a flying monsters for moving/charging is because it is explicitly written in his rules.

Obviously we are getting nowhere here so i guess i'll just revert to my standard response to these issues. Talk to your opponent before the game and wait for the FAQ.

Mephaine
13-05-2009, 00:11
Ok here is how you simplyfy it.

Yes in the rules it says he moves and charges like a flying monster which easy enough to say "Ok +6 attack since he is a flying monster on the charger." Sadly you gain a charge bonus based on your unit type. Glorfindel is unit type "Monster." Now how can I justify he only gets +1 attack some what simply.
Radagast grants his unit the charge range of cavalry however not the benfits such as speed or attacks. Similarly WIngs of Terror give the unit it was cast on in all rights Flying monster movement and charge but not the bonuses. In other words you can only claim your unit type for charge bonuses the onyl advantage dear Glorfindel gets is the fact he can move at insane speeds, is an ok spell caster but could suffer alot in the long run due to his relatively low monster S.

Axis
13-05-2009, 02:08
Wings of terror doesn't let it charge like a floying monster because it can't go over stuff. So that example doesn't quite work. The radagast example is quite good though. It seems if you want glorfindel to get +6 dice then so should radagast's formation.

The other bonus glorfindel has is three types of bane which offsets is low S. Plus magic and 3 points of might.

sheck2
13-05-2009, 02:34
Where is "charge bonus" even listed? A "cavalry charge (cavalry and flying monsters only)" is what is listed on page 47 for the combat modifiers....
You're making the assumption that A+B=C when there isn't a clear correlation. There is a very reasonable argument against it.

Your missing something from page 47.

Move, charge, and fight are all different phases...and he does not fight like a flying monster. So I'd agree with you except...

In the top paragraph under Combat modifiers it specifically says one of the combat modifiers is ...whether or not the formation charged into combat.'

He charges into combat - so he gets that combat modifier. And based on his rule, he charged like a flying monster. Combat mods are listed under conditions. NOTE the conditions are not listed by unit type as someone has written but by activity (charging or not), skill differences, orientation to a charge, dis-organized or not, and type of charge.

So you look up the condition...charging. And since he charged like a flying monster...he gets those bonuses.

Now - if he is in combat i.e. he GETS charged. He fights as a monster.

sheck2
13-05-2009, 02:39
Ok here is how you simplyfy it.

Radagast grants his unit the charge range of cavalry however not the benfits such as speed or attacks.

Getting the charge range of another unit is extremely different than becoming that unit type during the move and charge phases.



... the onyl advantage dear Glorfindel gets is the fact he can move at insane speeds...

Where does he gain insane speed? No where does it say all flying monsters move at 'X' speed. Rather each flying monster has a movement value, which happens to be commonly 12". Glor. still has a movement value of 8" when moving or charging.

Emissary
13-05-2009, 03:58
Glor. still has a movement value of 8" when moving or charging.
Correct for the movement, but he charges D6+8" like a flying monster.

I think all the reasons why he could or could not get the +6/+2 attacks have been stated at this point. It's probably just better to hope this comes up in the FAQ.

Axis
13-05-2009, 07:31
I guess he gets good speed because he comes with might so can At the double... and a large charge range.