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Angelust
22-04-2009, 18:45
Hey guys.

I'm making a MM force, and I really like the Balrog (one of the models that drew me to the army).


I'm still very new to the rules, however, and I'd like to know before purchasing the model.

Is the Balrog a hero, a monster, a monstrous hero...??

Which means, theoretically, when he's out and about, can someone like Aragorn just call an epic duel, roll with a +1 (along with extra might points he wants to use), and just trash him in a duel despite his high fight value, defense, and attacks, etc?


i.e. Aragorn epic duels, rolls +5 (because of might), while Balrog rolls +3 because of might? It just seems pretty easy to get dead balrogs that way.


I'm sure I'm missing something. What makes these guys the "character killers", when guys like Boromir or other high Might heroes just seem like they'll dish the damage in duels.

Thanks!

PS: Does that mean the Balrog can use all the heroic actions, like At the Double, etc?

Emissary
22-04-2009, 18:53
Hello

The Balrog is a monster and a hero, so can be dueled. The balrog can also do all the heroic actions. That being said, I think you have the dueling stuff wrong. You roll a D6 and add your fight value and +1 if you initiated the duel. Because the balrog has a natural fight of 10, Aragorn really can't go +5 on him. Even if Aragorn wins, you still roll on the extremely hard to kill table and only then for every 2 auto-hits you take from the duel table. An unwounded balrog isn't going to die from a duel.

And yes, the good characters can dish out some hurt in duels.

Angelust
22-04-2009, 20:44
So on average, if Aragorn challenges, he can epic strike, use 4 might pts to bump his roll to +4, while the Balrog uses 3 might pts to bump it up +3.

Meaning for the first round, Aragorn would only ahve a +1 to the duel, +2 if he challenged.

Next round, I'm guessing Aragorn uses epic strike again, and Balrog and him are about even for the challenge, and so on and so on.

The mitigating factor, I'm guessing, is that the Balrog only needs to get over his resilience once to do him in. Am I right?

Lord Asuryan
22-04-2009, 21:11
except for the might points spent on him calling the duel and the epic strike. Aragorn would only have 2 left after that, however, he'd be better off calling an EPIC duel, rolling 2 dice, after epic striking, and using his might as necessary. basic +1, rolling 2d6, etc. means Balrog takes some hurt.

but boromir does it better.

Marauder
22-04-2009, 21:39
I wouldn't worry about your Balrog being dueled to death too much. Yes there are some good heroes that can stand up to him - but it will cost them a good chunk of might and their unit (don't forget you have to do a regular fight phase afterward) is going to take a beating. Once they run out of might and can't epic strike anymore, they are as good as dead and their unit along with them!

Nu Fenix
22-04-2009, 22:22
I would just Black Breath the Balrog [or any hero really] and make it Fight 1 ;)

Easy way to kill them with a duel, and quite possibly their unit too.

SJBenoist
23-04-2009, 03:21
Can the hero spend might on the Hard to Kill rolls?

Sarah S
23-04-2009, 04:04
Yeah he can.

Reinholt
23-04-2009, 05:09
I would be more worried about the Balrog being ballista fodder, personally.

The only person I would really avoid in a duel is Boromir.

Angelust
23-04-2009, 05:16
Actually, I was just thinking about that. Don't Avenger Balistas put out a ridiculous amount of S7 hits? How does anything survive that?


As for Balrog, he can at least slink behind a big unit of goblins until he's in range, right?

Jorgen_CAB
23-04-2009, 06:46
Actually, I was just thinking about that. Don't Avenger Balistas put out a ridiculous amount of S7 hits? How does anything survive that?


As for Balrog, he can at least slink behind a big unit of goblins until he's in range, right?

No , the Avenger is only strength 6... but then again it only cost 50p. You also get a -1 penalty on the artillery table because monsters count as single companies. So you need to roll 4+ to actually hit anything at all. The avenger does 1D6+4 attacks/hits. So a formation of three of avengers would to an average of of 11-12 strength 6 attacks, that would be a total of about 4 hits and two rolls on the ridiculously hard to kill table.

If you compare that with some regular archers for the same points cost when they fire their bows. That is five companies and fifty shots and they hit in 6/4 so that is also about 4 hits and two rolls on the ridiculously hard to kill table.

In the light of that I don't think that the avengers are all that dangerous, unless you consider the usage of might points can be more efficient on the avengers than in a formation of archers.

Jorgen_CAB
23-04-2009, 11:04
I would just Black Breath the Balrog [or any hero really] and make it Fight 1 ;)

Easy way to kill them with a duel, and quite possibly their unit too.

Yes that is one way, but a hero with Epic Strike can increase it again to 10 in the Fight Phase to effectively dispel the effect... but a Balrog don't have Epic Strike so he is toast... ;)

Marauder
23-04-2009, 15:36
Yes that is one way, but a hero with Epic Strike can increase it again to 10 in the Fight Phase to effectively dispel the effect... but a Balrog don't have Epic Strike so he is toast... ;)

Okay, so Mordor armies can duel the Balrog to death. Anyone else? :D

ThrowN
23-04-2009, 16:08
Okay, so Mordor armies can duel the Balrog to death. Anyone else? :D

Sure, but that 's the reason, why there is a whole phase for movement. Maybe the movement value is the first in the profile for some reason. A long way before resistance...:angel:

Angelust
23-04-2009, 18:05
Any tactics to amp up a Balrog's chance in these kinds of duels?

Spend a might point to try and dispel black breath is one, and black breath the opponent with the Balrog can use up their might points maybe....

Nu Fenix
23-04-2009, 18:48
The Balrog only has access to Spells of Ruin, and so would need another spellcaster with Spells of Darkness to Black Breath the enemy.

Ideally I would try to keep the Balrog away from any risky duels, and go chew through some normal fodder instead. With Dark Fury, Shatter Shields and one of the damage spells [depending on size and Defence of enemy], he should have good odds of chewing through them.

stiggie
24-04-2009, 12:00
hey, i use a balrog and bein honest i prefer it to get into a duel.

using my last game as an example (against rohan)

i charged my balrog into combat with his rohan riders and theoden. i issued a heroic duel and we both rolled off.. i rolled 6 higher than him because of balrogs cheesey fight skill :P i got lucky and rolled like 4 6's 1 5 and a 1 or something like that.. but anyway i took out theoden and the whole cavalry unit in the duel alone.. and because balrog is treated as a "monstorous hero" after the heroic duel has taken place he is still able to do his normal attacks against the unit (which would've been about another 14 at strength 10?..

balrog is very overpowered, he wounds pretty much everything on 3's and u can use dark fury which at basic level makes him re-roll all ones and 2's in combat.

but i guess misty mountains needs models like that to keep them up to par due to the rubbish defence of the other units..

also if people have trouble with high fight value heroes etc theres one really fun answer..

shades :D

just make sure that they're within 12" of the enemy model but more than 12" away from urs that means arragon or whoever is fight 2 and balrog is still fight 10 :D = guaranteed win in duel lol.. and its not that hard since in WOTR u are allowed to pre-measure

fubukii
25-04-2009, 20:45
another thing to consider when using a balrog, is that good armies have a fate that causes a terror check to auto fail, now imagnie gilgalad charging your balrog, you failing your terror becoming f0 then a challenge happens...........

yea.

nalik
27-04-2009, 16:57
Hello
The Balrog is a monster and a hero, so can be dueled.

I've been trying to find in the WotR book where it lists the Balrog as a hero. Can you tell me where he's listed as a hero?, I can only find the monster listing and nothing saying he is a hero. Are people assuming that he is a hero because he has might points? Can't you do non-hero actions with might points? (Will of Iron)

Assuming it does list him as a hero, that means he can then join units correct?

Nu Fenix
27-04-2009, 17:01
The Monstrous Hero rule on p67 say they are heroes in addition to being a formation.

Pretty much, if it has Might, it's a hero.

No it cannot join other formations, since it is a formation and not an Epic Hero.

Jorgen_CAB
27-04-2009, 17:31
another thing to consider when using a balrog, is that good armies have a fate that causes a terror check to auto fail, now imagnie gilgalad charging your balrog, you failing your terror becoming f0 then a challenge happens...........

yea.

Or why not charge the Balrog with a unit that has Gandalf and Boromir and cast Blinding light on it... tough luck Balrog i say... ;)

Avatar111x
04-05-2009, 23:36
another thing to consider when using a balrog, is that good armies have a fate that causes a terror check to auto fail, now imagnie gilgalad charging your balrog, you failing your terror becoming f0 then a challenge happens...........

yea.

actually something similar happened in a game I recently played. Balrog attempted to charge High Elf unit with Gil-Galed in it. Failed Terror on a double 1. Gil-galed declared the charge and Balrog takes a second Terror test. Another double 1. Result? Pieces of Balrog ...