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blkdymnd
23-04-2009, 04:24
Ok, something doesn't make sense to use the way the rules read. If I have the following:

XXX
XXX
OOO
OOO

AAA
AAA

Ok, the X's and O's are engaged. The A Formation charges the O's in the back. According to the rules, this would not reduce the front companies of the O's attacks because they are not technically the company being attacked and combat is done on a company by company basis, not formation by formation (which I think was a slight mistake on GW's part as battles this mass should be on a formation by formation basis)

So what would the point of attacking a multiple stacked company formation in the rear, when you don't actually reduce it's attacks? And what would happen in the example to the rear companies of the O's, would they lose their support attack by being attacked in the rear?

I just think you should always get rewarded for attacking a formation from behind, but the rulebook seems to contradict that.

Mad Makz
23-04-2009, 06:15
You do reduce the formations attacks in ratio to the number of attacks you are getting to put on the formation. I am assuming you are charging not just to prevent the enemy killing you, but also to kill them in return.

If it's a significantly more dangerous formation than your rear charging formation, then there may not be much benefit when it's still multiple companies deep, but this is true in other game systems as well (in Fantasy, charging archers into the rear or flanks of a unit of chosen is such an example, the negation of the rank bonus can easily be outweighed by kills in return).

Charging a formation in the rear is less dangerous for the unit doing the charge because the suffer less attacks back, and if the companies in that formation WHERE engaged in the front as well, it's doubly bad for them, which represents the greater threat when companies are surrounded on all sides and unsupported

Jorgen_CAB
23-04-2009, 06:24
Well, first of all... as I understand... a formation is just a coherent entity made up of independent fighting companies. If you have a deep formation you need to penetrate deep before you can affect the companies that are further in the back, or in this case in the front.

It will certainly be beneficial attacking the rear. Those companies will not be able to do any support attacks. Companies in base contact can not support and must attack any company they are in base contact with. Any company that are in base contact at their rear get a -5 attack penalty, that is pretty steep, so they will not do much damage to that rear charging formation in return. The rear charged formation will most probably crumble pretty fast if you ask me.

Unless you charged some nasty Dwarf high armored infantry unit with an Epic hero that has Epic Defence, pretty impossible to crack with normal troops... :)

Rirekon
23-04-2009, 08:35
(Assuming each X/O/A is a single Company)

Copying your layout, prior to the A's charging the green Companies are engaged and the red Companies are supporting
XXX
XXX
OOO
OOO

AAA
AAA

After the A's charge the green and blue Companies are engaged (each colour fighting it's counter part), while the red Companies are supporting.
XXX
XXX
OOO
OOO
AAA
AAA

As you can see by charging the O's in the rear you have removed their ability to support those in front.

I believe (at least this is how I read it) that if you have this;
XXX
OOO
AAA

The O's lose the attacks for fighting to the rear even if they direct their attacks at the X's... I could be wrong though - in which case I see your point :)

Jorgen_CAB
23-04-2009, 09:35
A company looses their attacks no matter in which direction they direct them if they are engaged in the flank or rear. That is pretty clear in the rules.

From page 47 in Fighting in the Flank

Note that this penalty applies to any attacks the company makes, not just those directed at the foe in the flank. This represents the company's order being disrupted by the flank attack.

blkdymnd
23-04-2009, 13:57
A company looses their attacks no matter in which direction they direct them if they are engaged in the flank or rear. That is pretty clear in the rules.

From page 47 in Fighting in the Flank

That doesn't help. The companies in the front were not rear charged and so would be unaffected by a rear attack.

And losing the support attacks would be part of the issue, If I am tactically gifted enough to attack my enemy from behind, I would hope to make him lose more than one attack :)

Jorgen_CAB
23-04-2009, 14:12
You need to see this from a totally different angle. The rear companies are the only companies that fight with the rear charging formation. The rear charging formation need to cut down the rear companies before they can affect the front companies. Each company is practically fight as their own entity. The formation is just an abstraction of a battlefield formation... companies that simply support and fight in close proximity with each other and who has a supreme commander that decide how the formation will move and act on the battlefield.

That is the logic that you need to apply on the abstraction of the rules.

Whether you deem a company to be eight men or 300 men, depending on what scale the battle are fought on, does not really matter.