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mightymconeshot
23-04-2009, 16:11
What is the size of a legion? Also the size of the companies inside them.

PondaNagura
23-04-2009, 16:41
eh in older fluff we were lead to believe they were around 10k strong, but in the advent of the HH artbook and novels they might be tens of thousands strong. granted each legion is different and some vary vastly more while others rather less
like the UM vs say early EC

Luke.13
23-04-2009, 16:45
black templar codex states that legions are amassed in 10 000 strong legions..some legions like the UMs are probably more like 20k though

Inquisitor Engel
23-04-2009, 17:41
This varies wildly depending on the legion.

The Death Guard only have seven companies (not split into chapters it would seem) but are mentioned as being "slightly" larger than a standard company but since those Companies are the sub-Legion organizational unit, I find it hard to believe there were more than, say, 5,000 Death Guard.

The Luna Wolves have somewhere in the region of 20 Companies, again using Company as a sub-Legion unit.

The Word Bearers have some ungodly amount of Chapters, which are then split into companies, as are the Ultramarines.

There's no defined structure pre-Heresy like there is now. It was left to Primarch or the traditions of the Legion (The 7 Companies of Death Guard was an allusion to their pre-Unification achievements)

starlight
23-04-2009, 18:09
It varies through most of GW's publications. There is no *official* size.

After the Heresy (ie after the fighting) the UMs numbered at least 24,000 because they had 23 Successors in the Second Founding. It is generally assumed that they were the largest Loyalist Legion at that time.

Col. Tartleton
23-04-2009, 20:18
Lets see:

The Luna Wolves have thirty six hundred man companies. So lets say eighteen thousand conservatively. They were one of the most important legions so this feels small, but then they seemed to use minimalist tactics.

The Deathguard have probably about seven thousand man companies. So lets give them a reasonable seven thousand.

The Imperial Fists probably have a good thirty thousand marines. After all the major battle of the heresy there were still like ten thousand left as they broke into three (four) chapters after whittling themselves down severely.

The Space Wolves were mentioned as the smallest legion. Perhaps five-six thousand. They had 13 great companies (whatever that means) and an additional chapter worth of marines (Wolf Brothers) not to mention their casualties in the Heresy.

The Word Bearers must have had a good hundred thousand marines. They managed to wage a legitimate campaign against the Ultramarines and on Terra with half of their men in each engagement.

The Ultramarines were mentioned to have a crap load and were described as the largest (like 100-250 thousand) as even after their severe casualties they still had like thirty thousand (A chapter is like 1.3 thousand)

The Khan probably had at least ten thousand. I imagine a ten base system would have existed thanks to their mongol inspiration. After fighting on Terra and additional campaigns they still had several thousand marines as they had several second foundings.

The Emperors Children were probably quite small. Their 200 marines grew into probably ten thousand.

The Thousand sons probably were in the twenty thousand range.

That's about what comes to thought right now.

Condottiere
23-04-2009, 21:10
The Thousand Sons were originally called Ten Thousand Sons, which may reflect their actual size.

pookie
24-04-2009, 12:50
The Imperial Fists probably have a good thirty thousand marines. After all the major battle of the heresy there were still like ten thousand left as they broke into three (four) chapters after whittling themselves down severely..

only one Author refrences the 4th Chapter, i really dont think we should count them.



The Emperors Children were probably quite small. Their 200 marines grew into probably ten thousand.

which maybe true, tho in the HH Short story book thats just come out, they have members of the 43rd company taking part in a conflict, which would possible make the Ec at around 40.000+ strong.

starlight
24-04-2009, 13:51
Given that a Company is about 100 Marines, that would be 4300ish... Now if it was the 43rd *Chapter*...

pookie
24-04-2009, 14:29
Given that a Company is about 100 Marines, that would be 4300ish... Now if it was the 43rd *Chapter*...

damn you Starlight . . . :evilgrin: no wait Damn my maths/memory! :D

Landsknecht
24-04-2009, 15:02
The Thousand Sons were originally called Ten Thousand Sons, which may reflect their actual size.

How nice of them to comply with the Codex Astartes :p

Havarel
24-04-2009, 15:12
I've been awake for 32 hours now so my brain might be playing tricks on me, but isn't there a figure of roughly 100,000 marines thrown about? Think its in the HH artbooks.

starlight
24-04-2009, 16:06
How nice of them to comply with the Codex Astartes :p

You mean the Codex that wasn't written (ie officially codified by Guilliman) until after they turned Traitor... ;)

Magos Explorator
26-04-2009, 15:01
The Thousand Sons were originally called Ten Thousand Sons, which may reflect their actual size.

Where does this information come from?

Idaan
26-04-2009, 15:30
The Imperial Fists probably have a good thirty thousand marines. After all the major battle of the heresy there were still like ten thousand left as they broke into three (four) chapters after whittling themselves down severely.
(...)
The Ultramarines were mentioned to have a crap load and were described as the largest (like 100-250 thousand) as even after their severe casualties they still had like thirty thousand (A chapter is like 1.3 thousand)

So they had like 80 and 90% casualty rates respectively before the second founding? Sounds a "bit" unlikely.

Leftenant Gashrog
26-04-2009, 16:08
So they had like 80 and 90% casualty rates respectively before the second founding? Sounds a "bit" unlikely.

There is precident for it, theres an old 1st edition reference to the Sons of Horus and Ultramarine contingents on Tallarn suffering 90% casualties.
I'm pretty certain the 100,000 number was an attempt to return the Horus Heresy to the brutal bloodbath it was when it was first created rather than the cut-priced 'sneeze and you miss it' war that it became during 3rd edition.

Condottiere
26-04-2009, 16:11
Where does this information come from?From one of the original editions, I forget which.

starlight
26-04-2009, 16:55
You mean back when the Ultramarines were a Second Founding Chapter and their Librarian was half-Eldar? Back when Harlequins had Land Raiders?:eyebrows:

Techgardist
26-04-2009, 17:09
The Thousand Sons were originally called Ten Thousand Sons, which may reflect their actual size.

I may be wrong, but weren´t they called Thousand Sons because due to faulty geneseed? They could create just about 1000 marines, and had to play tag along to other legions until they found Magnus and could correct the flaw, and then to honor the original Thousand Sons kept the name.

Condottiere
26-04-2009, 17:17
I don't recall Harlequin having land raiders, which indicates that the edition would be after this.

starlight
26-04-2009, 17:24
I don't recall Harlequin having land raiders, which indicates that the edition would be after this.

Youngsters these days... :p

Leftenant Gashrog
26-04-2009, 17:43
You mean back when the Ultramarines were a Second Founding Chapter and their Librarian was half-Eldar? Back when Harlequins had Land Raiders?:eyebrows:

You mean Third Founding ;o)

Can't say I've ever seen any canon fluff calling them Ten Thousand Sons, in any edition.

Condottiere
26-04-2009, 18:01
I thought it was a stupid name as well, but there was a list of twenty legions, and something saying that half revolted.

Mind you, with the exception of the Ultramarines, most of the names listed seemed cheesy.

Shadowlance
02-05-2009, 08:18
what i remeber reading on the preheresy SM legions troop numbers was that they averaged 100,000 each except the ultramarines which maintained roughly 300,000.

after crap hit the fan in the horus heresy it was the ultramarines which held the imperium together after horus was defeated. they lost most of their numbers but still numbered the most out of all of the remining loyalists. thats why they say that the ultramarines gene seed makes up about 70%-80% of all loyalist marine's ATM

WastedWhiteBoy
02-05-2009, 08:39
I actually like the think (in my own world) that the legions were millions strong. They basically conquered a million worlds within what, two hundred years or so? That is insane, and even with the legions in the millions still seems impossible.

Of course, with the legions in the millions that'd mean the vast majority of them were nearly annihilated, as there were only so many founding chapters. But I'm willing to go with that.

starlight
02-05-2009, 14:04
Except that the Legions didn't conquer all those worlds on their own...:eyebrows:

And Ultramarine Geneseed makes up about 60% of the total...

Demon Druss
02-05-2009, 21:52
In fairness most planets they conquered were single planet systems that hadn't had contact with anyone since the Age of Strife so for a legion of 10,000 probably a pushover when combined with the Imperial Army and Navy.

abasio
03-05-2009, 13:16
Surely a lot of that number of "conquered" worlds came into the fold happily too. Making it less of a push over and more like a walk in the park :D

WastedWhiteBoy
03-05-2009, 18:38
I still think the numbers are way too small though. The legions were the Emperor's spearhead, essentially. A world is freaking huge. Ten thousand per legion just seems...tiny, on a galactic scale, especially for something that is suppossed to be the brunt of the fighting force.

starlight
03-05-2009, 19:06
Give me an average Mech Infantry Regiment with modern support and Medieval Earth would kneel... :)


Many worlds likely consisted of a medieval level of technology and a comparable population...no real match for the Imperial Army and Navy, let alone an Imperial Crusade.:eek:

Condottiere
03-05-2009, 19:35
The problem is less with Shock and Awe, and more with garrisoning the place.

starlight
03-05-2009, 20:42
That's what the Imperial Army was for. :) After the world was conquered and suitably understanding of what would happen in a rebellion, it would take a fairly small garrison to keep things on track. :)

Maidel
03-05-2009, 23:53
The Space Wolves were mentioned as the smallest legion. Perhaps five-six thousand. They had 13 great companies (whatever that means) and an additional chapter worth of marines (Wolf Brothers) not to mention their casualties in the Heresy.


Huh? Where did it say they were the smallest? Anyhow - they cant have been the smallest - the emperors children were definately smaller seeing as they were so small they couldnt even manage a crusade by themselves! They had to be tagged along with another legion until they were strong enough, and then the heresy happened so...


Great company = grand company (At least in my understanding) and in one of the novels a grand company had 4 captains - one was the 'lead' captain and the other three each had a company - which means a grand company is about 300 marines strong.

Basically that means every time 'company' is mentioned in a pre-heresy setting it could be talking about either 100 OR 300 men - which throws everyones calculations out.

Going back to the wolves - if a grand company = great company then you are looking at at least 3900 marines NOW - not during the heresy.

At the time of the hersey you are looking at a MINIMUM of 10,000 marines in the legions and really I think you need to looked 50,000+ before they started taking casualties or else it really doesnt make much sense (especially when the traitor legions were basically spilt in half when they wiped out their own men who they thought wouldnt be loyal!)

So if the traitor legions were 10,000 strong (on average) at the start - that means they were 5000 strong afterwards. I think 6 traitor legions (correct me if thats wrong) attacked earth - that would be 30,000 marines...

Which sounds like a lot? - no - not in the slightest - seeing as 27 loyal chapters confronted the 13th black crusade - which would be about 27,000 loyalist marines - the horus hersey was meant to be the biggest and most horrendous battle the human race has seen - 30,000 traitor marines + ships and support is nothing really.


The way I see it is that the emperor had always invisaged 1,000,000 marines (which is what, roughly, there are now) his mistake was putting them into just 20 legions and giving them too much strength. (not my idea - thats cannon)

therefore dividing that by 20 means 50,000 marines per chapter.

If, as is widely said the ultramarines numbered 250,000 - then that leaves 750,000 marines for the other legions - therefore they average 40,000 men in each legion.

Just my thoughts

pookie
05-05-2009, 14:24
I don't recall Harlequin having land raiders, which indicates that the edition would be after this.

they had em in RT, ive never known em being called what you said ( Ten Thousand Sons)

laudarkul
05-05-2009, 14:42
I think that each Legion was at least 75.000-100.000 marines. The UM were the largest Legion (more than 200k).