PDA

View Full Version : Forsaken - Polishing a ****.



Makaber
23-04-2009, 23:05
Warning: The following is pure theory-hammer. I see Forsaken get a lot of flak, and I feel a lot of it is undeserved. While they're maybe a bit on the expensive side, I refuse to believe they're the waste of points people make them out to be.

For 18 points a model, the Forsaken might seem like a ridicilous waste of resources, compared to other infantry models. This, I feel, is a large part of the problem: They get compared to other infantry models, and they get so on a points-per-model basis. First, their high Move stat makes a unit of them more suitable to a role traditionally filled by Ogre-sized infantry. As for the latter, you'll never purchase a single Forsaken; in Warhammer models come in units, which should form the base of comparison.

So, with that settled, let's compare a unit of 10 Forsaken to the unit I feel matches it best in both stats and purpose: A unit of 4 Minotaurs. The two units costs about the same, has very similar stats (same Move, WS, Strength, Toughness, and roughly the same average number of attacks). They do have a couple of differences; they handle damage a bit differently, Minotaurs being better at substaining melee damage, Forsaken handling ranged damage better. The Forsaken suffer from Frenzy, but their frontage is a lot smaller so they're easier to wheel around, and subsequently makes better flanking units. All in all, I feel their strengths and weaknesses roughly even out.

So where am I getting with all this? Nobody claims Minotaurs (especially with additional hand weapons) are the unit-to-end-all-units, but they're hardly a waste of points either. A Minotaur unit has the potential to do good stuff, so I see no reason why the forsaken shouldn't. The problem is, of course, that whatever Forsaken do, Knights do better. The Forsaken has some merits over Knights, but in a head to head matchup, they'd be hopelessly outclassed.

This has been annoying me for some time, because I feel Forsaken don't deserve their stamp as "bad", they're merely a "not as good" unit. I've been trying to discover a niche for them, and I think I ran into one in a game today.

They're infantry, so they can enter buildings.

Not only can they enter buildings; they excel at assaulting them. There's other, similarly fast infantry choices in the Army List, namely Trolls, Ogres, and Dragon Ogres. These are either unreliable (Trolls), not that great to begin with (Ogres) or expensive (Dragon Ogres). However, a common weakness is how they don't get the same benefits from fighting in a building as normal infantry does. A unit of Ogres with Additional Hand Weapons, capped to a max US of 10, gets 12 attacks when attacking a unit in a building. A similarly priced unit of Forsaken gets somewhere between 20 and 40 (!). And, if your battlefield contains no buildings, they're still fast enough to keep up and contribute, as opposed to, say, a unit of Chaos Warriors, who will get stranded far behind the action with their Move 4.

So there you have it, a niche for the Forsaken. Of course it depends on what kind of terrain you use, but everybody likes a village to sack and nobody does it better than these guys.

Nicha11
23-04-2009, 23:17
. I see Forsaken get a lot of flank, and I feel a lot of it is undeserved.

Damn right with movement six these guys should never get flanked:p


So there you have it, a niche for the Forsaken. Of course it depends on what kind of terrain you use, but everybody likes a village to sack and nobody does it better than these guys.

Except Khorne warriors with halberds who do more for less...

Makaber
23-04-2009, 23:22
And, if your battlefield contains no buildings, they're still fast enough to keep up and contribute, as opposed to, say, a unit of Chaos Warriors, who will get stranded far behind the action with their Move 4.

(Added some text here for length. What about a joke? Uuh, what's the difference between a dog? It can neither bike.)

Godgolden
23-04-2009, 23:24
But ogres.. in the same book... the same slot.


12 forsaken - 216

4 chaos ogres - 140
chaos armour - 20
aditonal hand weapons - 20
mark of khorne - 30

total - 210

its fair to compare these, they literily solve the same problem, just one does it better.

edit: of course ive never play tested either :)

Makaber
23-04-2009, 23:42
4 Ogres, capped at US 10 for building, means 3 ogres get to fight, 5 attacks each: 15 attacks (at WS3).

12 Forsaken, capped at US 10 means 10 fight, 1d3+1 attack each: 20 to 40 attacks (at WS4).

... Which was sort of what the entire post was about in the first place.

Godgolden
23-04-2009, 23:47
your basing a units worth solely on buildings?

in that case take warriors of chaos with shields and MOK, they are practically custom built for buildings.

sorry if im coming off as annoying im too tired to make this fun :)

rtunian
24-04-2009, 00:06
yes, he is.
the whole point of the post was that forsaken fill the "assault the building" niche.

this point wasn't hidden, veiled, or obscured. he spent about 1/3 of his post talking about it rather explicitly. you just had to read all the way to the bottom


edit:
one thing makaber didn't take into account, though...
how do they look while doing it???

if the answer is "meh, not as cool as knights" then there ya go :) case closed!!!

Sirroelivan
24-04-2009, 00:07
I was thinking off leaving a small unit of forsaken (6 or so) behind my lines to catch skirmishers, scouts, fliers marchblocking / attacking me from the rear.

Makaber
24-04-2009, 00:12
Please, read the post properly. I try to write something constructive instead of the usual "buy more knights" one liner drivel that normally goes on around here, and it's very fustrating to answer questions I've already covered (twice) in the span of a very short thread.

To a certain degree, yes I'm basing the units worth entirely on buildings. The reason for this is, I feel they're not that bad of a unit on their own, but are outshadowed by Knights. So I started trying to find something they do better than Knights. During a game today, I placed a Sorcerer in a building, which my opponent, having pretty much nothing but cavalry in his army, was unable to flush out. Now, it made little impact on the game, but I started thinking, what if it was a unit of Shades? Or some Handgunners? They'd be able to sit comfortably dishing out damage, and short of magic missiles, he'd have no way of countering them. And I believe Forsaken would do well in that role.

So yes, I feel that's what they might be good as. So I'm judging them on their ability to take out stuff in buildings, the way I judge the worth of a flier based around its ability to fly.

As for the Warriors argument, it gets raised in the first reply to the original post, and I answer it in the second. In short, if there's no building on the battlefield, a unit of Warriors is too slow to keep up with the kind of cavalry force that'd need a designated building assault unit in the first place. Forsaken, on the other hand, have a spiffy Move 6 and can keep pace.

Furthermore, if a building on the battlefield is near your deployment zone, it's unlikely to get occupied in the first place. I think it's safe to say that the nearer a building is to the opponents deployment zone, the more likely it is to feature in his battle plan. Forsaken, being faster, can reach it sooner. If the bulding is moderately near the opponents deployment zone, a unit of Warriors, on the other hand, might very well spend three or more turns reaching it.

Ed.: Thank you, rtunian. Also, I'd like to add that I see my argument isn't waterproof, and I am in no way trying to prove that Forsaken is the best unit in the list or anything. I'm just trying to explore what they can do and in what context they might be practical.

Isabel
24-04-2009, 01:20
I sure could have used these guys in a game the other day against wood elves. 2 unites of 10 waywatchers ravaged my army from buildings. Being completly cavalry, I had nothing to counter it besides getting them all into combat.

Thanks for an interesting post. Maybe forsaken will make an appearance in my army one of these days after all.

Avian
24-04-2009, 07:58
It's too bad nobody I know want to play with buildings because their rules are so bad.

I consider Forsaken to mainly be useful at filling a points gap. For 90 pts you get a unit that works a bit like Marauder Horsemen, except that they average out at 18 WS4 S4 attacks instead of 5 WS4 S5 and 5 WS3 S3 with the Horsemen. They are a bit more resilient, but naturally somewhat less manoeuverable.

I'll be getting another Spawn box at some point and I've considered converting up some Forsaken out of spare bitz.

ashc
24-04-2009, 09:12
I was thinking off leaving a small unit of forsaken (6 or so) behind my lines to catch skirmishers, scouts, fliers marchblocking / attacking me from the rear.

And that is actually what they are probably best for.

Briohmar
24-04-2009, 10:09
I have tried them in a game or two now, and can honestly say, I'm underwhelmed. If they were stubborn, maybe. If they were unbreakable definitely, if the were skirmishers, yep! But as a ranked infantry unit with no upgrade options, taking up a special slot, they're really not worth it.

Weemo
24-04-2009, 11:45
thats the problem, give them skirmish (why the hell not i mean they not suppose to be organised), they would fill the niche and be able to achieve the above mentioned roles, being movement 6 skirmish would also make them much more maneuverable

the only problem i can see from that is their frenzy rule, that could get a bit lame, charging all over the place

Avian
24-04-2009, 12:37
So give them D3 attacks and Hatred, then.

Or D3+1 attacks, Hatred and dump their Movement down to 4.

W0lf
24-04-2009, 13:01
TBH make them S5 and 17 pts.

Much more viable then.

Kerill
24-04-2009, 14:19
108 points for a unit that is tougher against shooting than 2 units of marauder horsemen, and is threatening enough for the enemy to need to react to them. They are a unit not just for buildings but there to throw at anything unexpected or simply to force your opponent to react.

Knights are great but 270 points for 6 khorne knights doesn't have the same level of throw-awayness.

In the last few battles where I have used them they have only failed in their purpose once. They've not earned me a single VP so far but they have helped me to win games nonetheless, and their presence seems to have greatly improved the survivability of my marauder horsemen.

W0lf
24-04-2009, 15:22
If you want throw-awayness take warhounds... that is afterall their job and they are possibly the best unit in the game for said role.

Lafkak
24-04-2009, 16:54
Let's look on the bright side, kids. They could be worse! Hah.

I played a game last night with 6 of them against High Elves and they did fairly well, although I was playing against someone who was relatively new so he made some crucial errors. It ended up that I had warhounds screening them on the flank (to deceive him during deployment). First turn RBT shot the hounds, hounds moved up, Silver Helms charged at them, I fled with the hounds, in my turn Forsaken charged the Helms, ate 4 out of 6 (didn't catch them in pursuit), and took two rounds of RBT shooting in the face leaving 1 alive. That last dude ended up charging the RBT and eating the crew. Then, since the other RBT on the other side of the table was busy trying to shoot my then-exposed Knights and Warriors, that one Forsaken ended up traversing the entire deployment zone and eating the second RBT as well. Hilarious.

Granted, the opponent could've just spent 1 volley to kill him before he got to the RBT, but I think (and other people have been saying this) part of the value of Forsaken is that you can't ignore them (and if you do, you pay the consequences). All in all, my Forsaken and hounds took 3 turns of shooting from an RBT, where 3 turns of shooting might have disastrous consequences for my Warriors or Knights. If the other RBT had wasted a turn on the lone Forsaken to protect itself, that would have been just as well. If a unit of Forsaken buys me 2-3 RBT salvo's and ends up eating an RBT (or more) anyway, I think they're worth it. Obviously in a normal game they would not end up eating 6 Silver Helms and 2 RBT, but I think they make pretty good warmachine hunters with their high resiliency (compared to Marauder Horsemen or Warhounds), ItP from frenzy, and decent Movement. Even if they get led around from frenzy, at least the opponent might waste some shooting on them. And if he doesn't, they make great flanker complements (kills!) to a static CR block (marauders!).

That's just my two cents. I plan to play more games with them and see how they do, just because I converted them and I like the models.

To play devil's advocate, however, Chaos Warriors with AHW+Shield have -2 Movement, +1 WS, same Attacks (on average), command upgrades, the ability to take a magic banner and a Mark, a +2 save vs. shooting compared to Forsaken, and Forsaken can be led around by Frenzy. Warriors are Core and ONE POINT CHEAPER! Tell me, are all those disadvantages really worth TWO MOVEMENT? I don't know.

RaZeR
24-04-2009, 17:12
To play devil's advocate, however, Chaos Warriors with AHW+Shield have -2 Movement, +1 WS, same Attacks (on average), command upgrades, the ability to take a magic banner and a Mark, a +2 save vs. shooting compared to Forsaken, and Forsaken can be led around by Frenzy. Warriors are Core and ONE POINT CHEAPER! Tell me, are all those disadvantages really worth TWO MOVEMENT? I don't know.

Forsaken have 1 massive other advantage over warriors that everyone ignores for some reason, and that's the minimum unit size of 5. Put simply, you need twice as many warriors to achieve the same role (and worse, with the -2 movement), and that makes it a not-throw-away unit...

I intend to use a unit of 6, if not 2 units of 6, in a 2k point army, because I love the idea, the conversion possibilities (this is pretty much why I went for WoC :p), and I actually think they'll do alright in games.

Oh yeah, and Lafkak, how did you convert yours? :)

Lafkak
24-04-2009, 18:04
I used Marauder and Horror bits to create monstrously mutated Chaos beasties for my Forsaken :D The fact that they have 3 arms (usually!) I feel represents the whole D3 attacks thing pretty nicely, and the fact that they have weapons (instead of just the grasping Horror hands, etc.) represents the fact that they don't completely suck in combat, I think. I play mono-Tzeentch and had some Horror models left over from Hordes so I used their parts to convert 'em up...looks pretty good, I think. I think using Bloodletter or Daemonette parts for converted Forsaken would be awesome, too, if you're running one of those themes (too bad Plaguebearers are metal and have crappy models IMO), even though they don't have the Mark you would think they would mutate in the direction of their patron god ;)

HellRaid
25-04-2009, 01:24
If you really want a reason why you should take Forsaken as a supplement to an army (as opposed to, say, even more knights) then I propose to you the fact that Forsaken won't get instagibbed by things like Spirit of the Forge, which almost all of the recently released armies have reasonably reliable access to (Empire, Lizardmen, Vampires, High Elves) or lucky war machines.

Chaos knights follow an 'I'm a deadly unit, kill me ASAP' theme, whereas Forsaken (in small units of 10, say) can take a similar flanking role without drawing so much attention to themselves.

Briohmar
25-04-2009, 07:16
My forsaken are older plastic chaos warriors using the mutation sprue. They have mutated heads and arms. I think that gets the point across well enough. They used to be part of my chosen warriors with 2 hand weapons, but I did away with that unit when I discovered how much better hand weapon and shield combo was. I want them to work, they just don't seem to do very well.

Kalec
25-04-2009, 07:45
Forsaken compete with knights, dragon ogres, and chariots for slots. Spawn and marauder horsemen don't.

Avian
25-04-2009, 09:49
That's not a big problem for me, I usually run out of points before I run out of slots anyway.

Jericho
25-04-2009, 11:01
Agreed. Filling slots is difficult when everything is so damn expensive. In an army like Empire you have to worry about choosing Special slots carefully... not so much with WoC.

Anyway I'm starting to come around a bit on Forsaken. I think in small units they can be an interesting in-between unit to add some character to an army. Maybe not tournament list worthy, but who knows. Marauder Cav simply don't have the toughness to do much (in my experience losing all of 2+ units by the top of turn 2 is pretty common) so these guys might be an interesting alternative.

wingedserpant
25-04-2009, 11:29
TBH make them S5 and 17 pts.

Much more viable then.

How about making them skirmishers?

Griffery
29-04-2009, 00:44
I'm sorry but I absolutely hate Forsakens. I would much rather have some trolls or ogres or something. They seem unnpredictable, much like Spawns, but at least Spawns have a better chance of doing more damage or moving further.

championofkhorne
13-05-2009, 07:47
I'm sorry but I absolutely hate Forsakens. I would much rather have some trolls or ogres or something. They seem unnpredictable, much like Spawns, but at least Spawns have a better chance of doing more damage or moving further.

see now you are just going into the essence of chaos armies, keywords are 'better CHANCE'

spawn are fun, there is no denying it, and getting 2 for one rare choice can be really nice, but they arent reliable, so you cant really expect them to be anything but complimentary. Forsaken can be there own unit, albeit not a very cost effective one, but if they flank a unit engaged in combat with one of your warriors, the unit is dead, i dont really care what it is.

I use forsaken in fluffy games, like i'll take some spawn, a few forsaken, some marauders and say a giant and call them the remains of a larger army that was defeated, basically what happens when chaos goes wrong. It is great fun.

in tourneys, forsaken are going to be left out, they just weren't intended to be used in flexible roles that tourneys require, and with most WoC tourney lists being magic heavy, there just isnt enough points to allot to them.

ive never thought any unit in the army book is a throw away unit, every one has its strengths and its weaknesses, and every unit has its background, the fun part is to tie the background into the game. That is where the forsaken really earn there spot

Nostro
13-05-2009, 21:31
I'll fully quote a post (out of the quotation box for easier reading) form Neknoh who advocated the use of Forsaken, in the WoC Tactica thread that I've coincidentally been reading quite extensively these days:



see below


Two groups of six, that's two times one hundred and eight points, that's 17 points more than a unit of five marauder horsemen with flails, musician and the Mark of Slaanesh, one more wound, and way more attacks.

The Forsaken in themselves are, to me, an invaluable infantry screen, since really, "one unit of cheap fast cavalry or similar" isn't going to drag them in front of your entire line, more times than not, they'll slaughter anything sitting in front of them, and with good spacing, even the "failed charge" movement of six inches will be enough not to hamper your normal infantry march move of eight.

Furthermore, they can also be used to rush down a flank and scare the bejeebus out of most any units that aren't fully ranked up on said flank, and they can even put some quite nasty hurt down when flanking, especially since they break ranks and their high movement and charge range.

And really, one hundred and eight points of toughness four and heavy armour actually makes them slightly MORE survivable than the same ammount and points (i.e. six) of Marauder Horsemen, for a higher damage output but a lack of Horselord and the three dice pursuit, as such, I feel they make excellent flank-hunters or screens where the horsemen make wonderful diverters and cleaners. And let's face it, people seldom use all four special slots, I use chosen, dragon ogres and knights, and I really don't need any more special choices, as such, I pick Forsaken for my fourth since I need one more screen/suicide/special-tasks unit.

They might not be able to flee, but combined with horsemen and warhounds, they make for an excellent infantry support unit.


EDIT: Snottle, the Horsemen are five, and cost fifteen points more? Then why not buy a sixth Forsaken? Suddenly, the Forsaken are throwing out, on average, 18 strength 4 attacks at weaponskill 4, so far, it is about equal with the 10 strength 5 (one round only) and 10 strength 3 attacks of the Horsemen. The Horsemen move longer, the Forsaken LAST longer, Toughness 4, 5+ save beats Toughness 3 6+ save. Forsaken covers a larger area for screening, marauders are slightly easier to manouver.

Now, compare them to non-khornate horsemen, and suddenly, the forsaken outpreform the Horsemen, does that mean the Horsemen suddenly suck? Really, you need to factor a LOT more than number of attacks, since the Horsemen only win out with 2 more attacks on average, whilst the Forsaken also have a 1/3 chance of getting 6 MORE attacks than the Horsemen. And, not to mention, a dead forsaken (harder to achieve at that), = 3 attacks less, a dead Horseman in a unit of fewer horsemen = 4 attacks less, suddenly, the Forsaken have 15 attacks on average, the horsemen have 16, the difference will keep decreasing each kill, and the horsemen are easier to kill at that.

Troah
13-05-2009, 21:35
What's a Forsaken?

championofkhorne
14-05-2009, 04:02
it's you, now

Nurgling Chieftain
14-05-2009, 05:35
...Do people really take Chaos Ogres with additional hand weapons instead of great weapons like Khorne clearly intended? :p

changer of fate
14-05-2009, 06:37
well if every one listens to khorne there won't be much left in this world would it?

Troah
14-05-2009, 07:18
it's you, now

Very mature. -.-

ROCKY
14-05-2009, 07:26
Very mature. -.-

heheehe he was kidding us chaos worshippers tend to tease :) but anyways forsaken are the opposite of chosen. their gifts made them go kookoo and they are frenzied and TOO expensive for actual use...

changer of fate
14-05-2009, 07:46
What's a Forsaken?

chaos warriors half way to spawnhood running around in underwears

Leogun_91
14-05-2009, 08:42
heheehe he was kidding us chaos worshippers tend to tease :)once and then we get killed by another chaos worshipper

EvC
14-05-2009, 09:28
Hehe, it's funny seeing people write essays on simple stuff that I worked out ages all by myself ;) The one game I've used Forsaken was a capture the tower affair. It worked out nicely when they first assaulted a building with Skinks (no duh), and they even survived an attack from White Lions thanks to the numerous attacks. Eventually they got cleared out but they did a damn fine job.

Meanwhile Ogres stay in my list for building assault. I prefer 12 S6 attacks, thanks :)

TheDarkDaff
14-05-2009, 10:56
so i'm guessing the general concesus is you can't really polish Forsaken (the ****) but you can roll them in glitter.:angel: (sorry, i just had to get that out as soon as i saw the title)

Havock
14-05-2009, 11:12
You want to compare the forsaken to something?
Khornate marauder horsemen. With flails, of course :)

PinkFellSquig
16-05-2009, 23:27
I myself run a Troll-based army (Throgg & 20 trolls) with 40 Marauders, 10 Marauder Horsemen, 20 Warhounds, Shaggoth/Sliiant/Spawn, and supported by either Valkia (hilarious regeneration results) or Nurgle Buboes spam.

My special slots usually run kinda light, so I bought a group of 12 old-school plastic chaos warriors, the mutation sprue, some Spawn tentacles, and a selection of the Possessed Chaos Marine heads and arms and went to down. I'm still trying to see what is the best combination with them, but I think I'll be going with 2x6 for flanking or rearguard. Most of my games lately have been against Lizardspam EotG cavalry, so it's hard to tell what is working effectively or not. My trolls took the day once, though. They're my lovelies...

~J~

Seville
17-05-2009, 08:06
What about sticking Sigvald with a unit of 5 Forsaken? That could be pretty wicked, I think. Could probably generate enough active CR to trounce most units.

Just a thought I had!

Nurgling Chieftain
17-05-2009, 09:05
Sigvald is M4. He'd slow them down in open terrain.

danny-d-b
17-05-2009, 09:33
What about sticking Sigvald with a unit of 5 Forsaken? That could be pretty wicked, I think. Could probably generate enough active CR to trounce most units.

Just a thought I had!

why just not put sigvald in a unit of warriors/chosen?

Seville
17-05-2009, 17:22
Sigvald is M4. He'd slow them down in open terrain.


why just not put sigvald in a unit of warriors/chosen?

The thinking behind this idea is that Forsaken come in minimum units of 5. I think Sigvald is nearly badass enough to take on and break entire SCR5 units by himself, especially since he is stubborn. But with a small 75 point investment of Forsaken, you can almost guarantee that he will smack into and break units.

You could have them running through terrain and hitting people where they least expect a Chaos army to charge from!

Again, it's just a thought I had. We're trying to figure out how to polish this ****, and this is just one shining agent I thought of.

Dexter099
17-05-2009, 20:17
The problem is, Forsaken are worse than every other unit in the army at everything. Warriors fight better, Ogres move and fight better, etc...

Plus they are random, even if you roll a 5 or 6 for their attacks that round, warriors of khorne get that many attacks every round. Plus, Forsaken don't get full command.

Kerill
17-05-2009, 23:49
The problem is, Forsaken are worse than every other unit in the army at everything. Warriors fight better, Ogres move and fight better, etc...

Plus they are random, even if you roll a 5 or 6 for their attacks that round, warriors of khorne get that many attacks every round. Plus, Forsaken don't get full command.

But they are faster than warriors and cheaper than ogres. They also fight better than a similarly costed unit of ogres. They are random but that is an issue for your opponent as well as for you- they can't be sure of how dangerous they might be, just like you and 24 S4 attacks from 6 forsaken hurts almost anything.

Nurgling Chieftain
18-05-2009, 01:37
They also fight better than a similarly costed unit of ogres.I really don't think they do. It's a bit problematic to compare straight points costs, though, since an Ogre unit hits its stride at about 200 points and up, while forsaken are most effective by wasting as few points on the unit as possible. :p

Kerill
18-05-2009, 05:13
I really don't think they do. It's a bit problematic to compare straight points costs, though, since an Ogre unit hits its stride at about 200 points and up, while forsaken are most effective by wasting as few points on the unit as possible. :p

Indeed, forsaken are best as a unit of 6 for 108 points. 3 naked ogres is 105 points. Forsaken have an average of 18 Ws4 S4 attacks, ogres have 9 Ws3 S4 attacks. If you buy the ogres a/hw they are 120 points and still don't hit as hard with 12 attacks. If you mark them khorne they are now 150 points and still have less attacks, if you add another ogres they are 190 points and now have more attacks (20) but at a lower WS so hit about the same. Of course you would probably want to give them GW but now they are twice as expensive as the forsaken.

Forsaken also are important due to their potential threat value, your opponent has to react to them since if they remain intact they have the potential to beat a lot of things. They are also decent mage hunters, even if they take a couple of casualties. Finally 5 forsaken are more resilient against S3 shooting than 10 marauder horsemen and it takes about the same S4 firepower to down 6 forsaken as it does 10 marauder horsemen. They are a decent unit if you have points to spare if you want an extra fast cheap unit to force your opponent to react to. Mine tend to get shot at and magic missiled a lot- great. My marauder horsemen have become a lot more survivable as a result.

Khorne marauder horsemen hit much harder and are faster but are more expensive and die an awful lot more easily.

Havock
18-05-2009, 15:03
Indeed, forsaken are best as a unit of 6 for 108 points. 3 naked ogres is 105 points. Forsaken have an average of 18 Ws4 S4 attacks, ogres have 9 Ws3 S4 attacks. If you buy the ogres a/hw they are 120 points and still don't hit as hard with 12 attacks. If you mark them khorne they are now 150 points and still have less attacks, if you add another ogres they are 190 points and now have more attacks (20) but at a lower WS so hit about the same. Of course you would probably want to give them GW but now they are twice as expensive as the forsaken.

Forsaken also are important due to their potential threat value, your opponent has to react to them since if they remain intact they have the potential to beat a lot of things. They are also decent mage hunters, even if they take a couple of casualties. Finally 5 forsaken are more resilient against S3 shooting than 10 marauder horsemen and it takes about the same S4 firepower to down 6 forsaken as it does 10 marauder horsemen. They are a decent unit if you have points to spare if you want an extra fast cheap unit to force your opponent to react to. Mine tend to get shot at and magic missiled a lot- great. My marauder horsemen have become a lot more survivable as a result.

Khorne marauder horsemen hit much harder and are faster but are more expensive and die an awful lot more easily.

5 marauder horsemen with flails, LA and MoK is 110 pts.
6 forsaken are 108 pts.

Take the following into account: Movement = defense.

Makaber
18-05-2009, 15:11
5 marauder horsemen with flails, LA and MoK is 110 pts.
6 forsaken are 108 pts.

Take the following into account: Movement = defense.

But the horsemen can't enter buildings. ;)

Havock
18-05-2009, 15:19
Buildings are on the playing field like what, once in a blue moon? Most tournaments even specifically say they are impassable.

Also: If I roll an 11/12 on gateway strength, do I remove the building as well?
Forceful eviction ftw >:]

Harwammer
18-05-2009, 15:35
Buildings are on the playing field like what, once in a blue moon? Most tournaments even specifically say they are impassable.

Also: If I roll an 11/12 on gateway strength, do I remove the building as well?
Forceful eviction ftw >:]

Yeah, but those tournaments are playing crazy house (pun unintentional) rules. When you play a normal game of warhammer you can control whether or not there are buildings on the field.

Kerill
18-05-2009, 15:42
5 marauder horsemen with flails, LA and MoK is 110 pts.
6 forsaken are 108 pts.

Take the following into account: Movement = defense.

Not enough of a defence I'm afraid, if they are cowering behind terrain all battle they aren't fighting either.

Havock
18-05-2009, 16:48
Forsaken have the same armour save, yet move more slowly. I think the marauders will face less shooting as in: a turn less.

Horsemen are also core, so don't detract from realy hard hitters.
Like knights.

Kerill
18-05-2009, 17:03
I think you'll find that's not really the case.

Assuming you are can get a second turn charge on a missile unit you will still suffer the stand and shoot. Forsaken will charge the following turn but no stand and shoot.

T4 is also a big difference, and 5 horsemen hit about the same as 6 forsaken.

Havock
18-05-2009, 17:41
I think you'll find that's not really the case.

Assuming you are can get a second turn charge on a missile unit you will still suffer the stand and shoot. Forsaken will charge the following turn but no stand and shoot.

Fair.
Assuming you don't use the far greater maneouvrability of the horsies to deny your opponent good shots.
Odds are the horsies can find flanks, it's going to be far more difficult for the forsaken to do so.