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Quannum
24-04-2009, 10:01
Hi all,

I have been following Emissary's thread on the correct way to play Heroic/Epic Actions over on the General Discussion sub-forum (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194122). I applaud Emissary's intentions to resolve a tricky rules debate but the thread has descended into a mess of opinions and arguments (in the broadest sense) and, quite frankly, I find its bringing up more confusion than it is resolving. Sorry if this has been covered in the other thread, but I just couldn't trawl through seven pages of circular argument.

If only for my benefit, I'd like to set down the way that I definitively play the Heroic/Epic Actions element of the game and introduce something I've termed "Queue Priority". I hope its easy to read and would like to know if you agree with my interpretation. Until it is FAQ'd, I will be playing this with my opponents as, IMO, it makes common sense.

SO...

We are all agreed on the correct way to announce the use of Heroic Actions in a phase, paying heed to priority, multiple announcements and multiple heroes involved. A "queue" of Heroic Actions is called, based on which player wins priority (in the case of multiple announcements) and they are resolved first to last after all have been announced. The main problem seems to be about activation of Epic Actions within the "queue" system. People are confused over when they can call certain combos of Epic/Heroic Actions.

It is a given that Epic Actions can be called as per usual like Heroic Actions and are "queued" accordingly. But the thing that sets Epic Actions apart (aside from being considerably powerful, e.g. Epic Strike) is their ability to be called within this queue system. Heroic Actions can't do this. That is, IMO, the noticeable benefit of investing points in Epic formations and heroes.

The BRB states specifically under the Epic Actions entry on p.69:

"Epic Actions do not always have to be declared at the start of the phase, but are called WHEN THE HERO'S FORMATION IS DUE TO ACT."

This disclaimer, IMO, is the definitive answer to our debate and introduces the idea of a term that I call "queue priority". If I and my opponent have both called Heroic Actions, when it is my turn to resolve one of the actions I called (in other words, when I have queue priority) I can, where appropriate, call an Epic action on top with the same Hero who called the Heroic/Epic Action I am resolving.

Note that these Epic actions still use up Might points as stated on p.69.

For example, my single company of Minas Tirith Warriors led by Aragorn is facing a single company of Easterlings led by Khamul. It is the start of the Fight Phase and I have priority:

1) I do not wish to use declare any Heroic/Epic action(s) and let my opponent know.
2) He counters by declaring that he does wish to with Khamul.
3) I respond by declaring that I now wish to with Aragorn.
4) As we both have Heroes using Actions, we roll off and he wins.
5) The Actions Queue forms as such:
i) Khamul - Epic Strike
ii) Aragorn - Epic Duel
iii) Khamul - No response. Pass.
iv) Aragorn - No response. Pass.
6) Note, that the Heroes alternate until each player passes. Thus, the queue is formed and resolves starting from i) to iv).
7) My opponent has queue priority and i) resolves. Khamul's formation is now Fight 10 for the rest of the phase.
8) I now have queue priority with Aragorn and his formation to resolve ii) - my Epic Duel. As my formation (strictly, Aragorn) is "due to act" I now am free to call another Epic Action (Epic Strike) with him to aid my Epic Duel. This is entirely legal as I have the Might points, I have the ability, I possess "queue priority" and it is the appropriate phase. This is immediately resolved before the Epic Duel as we have effectively created a "sub-queue" that resolves from first to last, the last being the original Epic Duel.
9) We resolve the Epic Duel called by Aragorn (now at Fight 10) - Khamul, along with some Easterlings, is slain.
10) As he is slain, Khamul can longer fight but the rest of his surviving company still benefits from the Fight 10 bonus as this has already been resolved.
11) The rest of the fight is resolved normally.

Some may want to question why Aragorn's Epic Strike is resolved immediately (i.e. in the "sub-queue") and there is no clear-cut answer for this. It needs an FAQ but I believe the RAW intends this procedure to be the correct one. It makes common sense and highlights the advantage of Epic Heroes and their Epic Actions.

Q

Jorgen_CAB
24-04-2009, 10:36
I think this thread will go down the same road as the other one... ;)

My interpretation is not entirely the same as yours... I interpret that a formation act when the formation actual do something. Not when a Heroic Action is resolved.

The second question that you failed to rasie, which actually was why the other thread was started in the first place is when Heroic Fight/Duel are actually resolved. Can you actually resolve Heroic Fight before a Heroic Duel in what you called "Queue Priority".

I will not argue this anymore because I think that both side of the argument actually have merits. And in my opinion you can interpret it either way... so the rules are poorly written in this instance.

Quannum
24-04-2009, 12:40
I interpret that a formation act when the formation actual do something. Not when a Heroic Action is resolved.

I'm afraid your logic is flawed. All of the Heroic Actions - unless specifically stated otherwise - call for a hero's formation to do something, e.g. Heroic Shoot. Heroic Duel is no exception. It may be just the Hero fighting, but he counts as part (or sometimes the whole) of a formation and is "acting" with an Action, therefore the formation is "acting". As discussed, Gulavhar is a good example of this. He counts both as a hero and a formation. When "Gulavhar the Hero" is in a Heroic Duel, "Gulavhar the formation" is necessarily in it too for they are one and the same.


The second question that you failed to rasie, which actually was why the other thread was started in the first place is when Heroic Fight/Duel are actually resolved. Can you actually resolve Heroic Fight before a Heroic Duel in what you called "Queue Priority".

Yes, a Heroic Duel and Heroic Fight are Heroic Actions and are therefore subject to being queued. Of course, this will be abused for a while until it is cleared up by an FAQ. But read the wording of Heroic Fight carefully, it doesn't entitle you to what you're thinking it does:

"If the Hero declared a Heroic Fight at the start of the fight phase, the combat his formation is involved in is worked out before all combats that turn" (p.66)"

All this does is force you and and opponent to resolve that combat before any others, not dictate HOW you work it out. And it's only useful if there are multiple combats on the battlefield. A 'combat' means exactly the same as a 'fight' in the BRB (see p.46). So, if one flank has a combat/fight between some Dwarf Warriors and some Haradrim, the centre has a fight between Dwarf Archers and a Mumak, and the other flank has a fight between some Vault Wardens and some Kataphrakts, and I queue a Heroic Fight with my Dwarf Warrior Captain, we fight that one immediately after the Action resolves, even if, for argument's sake, it was preferential to fight the one against the Mumak first.

Q

Jorgen_CAB
24-04-2009, 12:54
Ok, I might actually agree on your first point... that the Heroic Dual should work as any other Heroic action and therefore the formation is activated during a Duel. So both heroes have the chance to use Epic Strike.

I'm not sure that I understood your answer on the second one.
Did you mean that you can and should resolve the Heroic Fight before a Heroic Duel if it is first in the queue or not?
Or was it simply that it could be interpreted that way but you don't think that it was the intention and that it will no longer be allowed once the FAQ arrive?

Rirekon
24-04-2009, 13:02
I have to say I'm not 100% confident that Heroic Duel is resolved during the "Priority Queue". The bit that makes me doubt this is that it states that you resolve the rest of the combat immediately after... If anyone has the book handy it's the last paragraph on Heroic Duel.

Jorgen_CAB
24-04-2009, 13:10
It simply state that after the Dual you continue the fight as normal. In my view this can be interpreted in any number of ways.

Fight could men the combat between those formations involved, it could mean that you continue the fight phase as normal since this action is an interruption of it. I think this is part of the problem...

Heroic Fight also tells us to work out combat before other combat... what do they actually mean by that??
Is it now, during the actions step, since it is clearly before other combat... or do you work through all the action declaration and then perform the combat before other combat... it is very unclear to me.

Jorgen_CAB
24-04-2009, 13:18
"If the Hero declared a Heroic Fight at the start of the fight phase, the combat his formation is involved in is worked out before all combats that turn" (p.66)"

All this does is force you and and opponent to resolve that combat before any others, not dictate HOW you work it out. And it's only useful if there are multiple combats on the battlefield. A 'combat' means exactly the same as a 'fight' in the BRB (see p.46). So, if one flank has a combat/fight between some Dwarf Warriors and some Haradrim, the centre has a fight between Dwarf Archers and a Mumak, and the other flank has a fight between some Vault Wardens and some Kataphrakts, and I queue a Heroic Fight with my Dwarf Warrior Captain, we fight that one immediately after the Action resolves, even if, for argument's sake, it was preferential to fight the one against the Mumak first.

Q

Sounds reasonable... so the Duel are fought when the Formation fight and are resolved just before.
That would be the logical thing here I believe.

Rirekon
24-04-2009, 13:19
It simply state that after the Dual you continue the fight as normal.

That's the one; My reading of that leads me to believe that Heroic Duels don't occur until you decide to resolve the combat involving Heroes that have declared them - at this point you resolve the Heroic Duel(s) first (in order that they were called) and then go onto resolve the rest of the fight.
I've not read all of the previous thread, but I'm assuming that this is where the contention over Epic Strike + Heroic Duel vs Heroic Fight occurs?

Either way this (Heroic action queues) is the one area of the rules that feels over complicated. It feels like a CCG mechanic has been implemented by people who don't make CCG's.

Reinholt
24-04-2009, 15:35
I think part of the confusion also stems from this:

In the move, shoot, or charge phases, what happens with a priority queue is pretty unambiguous.

In these phases, people act one at a time (I go, You go). I declare a charge, you declare a charge. I declare a shoot, you declare a shoot. There's nothing complicated about this one, and there's a clear order to work them out in that just comes naturally from this sort of construct.

The fight phase, however, is a different animal. It is not the case that I fight all of my fights, then you fight all of your fights, if I had priority! We fight simultaneously, and the resolution mechanics for the fight phase work differently than any other phase.

Quannum referenced it above, but I think it is not coincidence that the following are true:

1 - Heroic Fight is worded differently with regard to when it happens than other heroic actions.

2 - Heroic Duels reference the combat continuing as normal after the duel.

I think, if we were making a flow chart, the way it works is this for each fight:

Formations Turn to Fight --> Resolve Heroic Duel --> Resolve Normal Fight

A Heroic Fight, then, means that you run through that sequence FIRST for the formations in the Heroic Fight, and that if you win the Heroic Fight, you get to charge and do it again (which is pretty awesome).

That seems to fit the intent of the rules in every case (Heroic duels come before the normal fight for a set of formations, and likewise, the formations become active first so people can use Epic Defense, Epic Strike, Epic Rampage, etc, without weird, weird priority things happening), as well as the wording of Heroic Fight and Heroic Duel with regard to resolution.

This also means there is zero ambiguity with regard to when it is a formation's turn to act, there is no confusion with regard to monstrous heroes, and there are no weird inter-woven sequences of events that occur where you jump from fight A to duel B to fight C to Duel A to Fight B or some such nonsense as a result of the priority queue.

I'm with Quannum here.

Quannum
24-04-2009, 16:37
I'm not sure that I understood your answer on the second one.
Did you mean that you can and should resolve the Heroic Fight before a Heroic Duel if it is first in the queue or not?
Or was it simply that it could be interpreted that way but you don't think that it was the intention and that it will no longer be allowed once the FAQ arrive?

You can and should, yes. Bear in mind, all of our examples have assumed all the heroic actions are called in a single combat. It is quite feasible to start the Fight phase by calling a Heroic Fight with a Captain in Combat 1, and your opponent responding with an Action in Combat 2. This is where Heroic Fight comes into play - as soon as it resolves, you and your opponent must now fight the combat it was activated on.

In other words, Heroic Fight entitles you to bypass the Priority player's decision in choosing the order in which to fight combats on the battlefield. There may be a tactical reason for this, etc.

Whenever a Heroic Fight resolves, the attentions of both players are forced onto whichever combat the Heroic Fight was applied to. You then move on from there. This may leave you with an Epic Strike, etc. resolved on a hero in another fight as it was queued and resolved first, but this doesn't mean it is negated. When it comes to that particular fight, that Hero will still be Fight 10. It is up to you to remember what has successfully resolved.

Certainly in the other thread, I think people are completely misunderstanding what Heroic Fight actually does.

Q

Quannum
24-04-2009, 16:38
This also means there is zero ambiguity with regard to when it is a formation's turn to act, there is no confusion with regard to monstrous heroes, and there are no weird inter-woven sequences of events that occur where you jump from fight A to duel B to fight C to Duel A to Fight B or some such nonsense as a result of the priority queue.

I'm with Quannum here.

Exactly. (And thanks!)

Jorgen_CAB
24-04-2009, 17:20
Ok, I buy your argument... but in regard to Epic Strike. Since a formation is activated when you either duel or fight there are no point in calling an epic strike in the normal queue. You can always call it when the fight or duel occur.

There might be other reasons to call for an Epic Strike before a fight, such as for the Dark Marshal to give another formation a fight skill of 10.

FuzzyOrb
24-04-2009, 17:21
1 - Heroic Fight is worded differently with regard to when it happens than other heroic actions.

2 - Heroic Duels reference the combat continuing as normal after the duel.

I think, if we were making a flow chart, the way it works is this for each fight:

Formations Turn to Fight --> Resolve Heroic Duel --> Resolve Normal Fight

A Heroic Fight, then, means that you run through that sequence FIRST for the formations in the Heroic Fight, and that if you win the Heroic Fight, you get to charge and do it again (which is pretty awesome).




I really believe that this is it:).
I'm not 100% sure how it's backed up by the RAW (german copy owner here) but in can easily imagine Mat Ward and Jeremy Vetok standing at the gaming table with this concept in their minds and just assuming that the players would take it as given.

skallagrimsson
24-04-2009, 20:38
Please do not forget that priority is not a given, even if you have priority in a given turn. If both sides call heroic actions in the same phase a dice is rolled 1-3 evil has priority in resolving the heroic actions, 4-6 good has priority.

Edonil
24-04-2009, 21:05
There might be other reasons to call for an Epic Strike before a fight, such as for the Dark Marshal to give another formation a fight skill of 10.

Epic Strike can't be combined with the Dark Marshal's Rule Through Fear ability. Whatever the timing of when you call Epic Strike, the effects work out during the Fight Phase, however the Rule Through Fear rule comes into effect at the beginning, before Epic Strike occurs.

Rirekon
24-04-2009, 21:23
Surely it's a persistent effect?

dtjunkie19
24-04-2009, 21:30
I believe that is incorrect. Namely The Dark Marshal's Rule says that the formation may use the Dark Marshal's Fight value instead of their own. So if the dark marshal's FV is increased via epic strike before the formation benefiting from his ability fights, they would use the fight value he is at.

Edonil
24-04-2009, 21:30
Rule Through Fear. The Dark Marshal has Inspiring Leader (Master). Also, you may choose one formation within 12" of the Dark Marshal at the start of the Fight phase. That formation uses the Dark Marshal's Fight value instead of their own.

And, as has been discussed, Epic Strike happens when the Dark Marshal's formation fights, not at the beginning of the phase.

Rirekon
24-04-2009, 22:33
You choose at the start of the Fight phase, they then use his Fight value until the end of the phase. If his Fight value changes they use the modified value - in exactly the same way that his Company use it.

Quannum
24-04-2009, 22:36
You choose at the start of the Fight phase, they then use his Fight value until the end of the phase. If his Fight value changes they use the modified value - in exactly the same way that his Company use it.

This is the correct way to play it. But we're straying off topic here.


Ok, I buy your argument... but in regard to Epic Strike. Since a formation is activated when you either duel or fight there are no point in calling an epic strike in the normal queue. You can always call it when the fight or duel occur.

Yes, that is right. But it takes a cunning general to realise that. Players are all too eager to overextend with Heroic/Epic Actions. Epic Strike is lethal as it should be.

Well, as I think we've solved it, who's up for a pint and some pipeweed?

Q