PDA

View Full Version : [WotR] Mordor Tactica



ThrowN
24-04-2009, 10:34
With all those tactica threads started in the forum, I think its time for a Mordor one, too.
To give some subjects:
- Ranking of the 9
- Orcs/Morannon/Uruks uses?


The question of uses for normal orcs lead me to the following idead:
Khamul, starting of in a unit of Morannons with shields. As the army closes in, he switches to a nearby (18") formation consisting of 9 companies of mordor orcs with 2-hh weapons. With their low fight and defence they will take lots of casuallties of which I can reflect a third onto the enemy. This allows me to trade some of my cheapest models for key units of the enemy like Vault Wardens.

Zap Branigan!
24-04-2009, 12:01
At the moment think my top three are Khamul,Dark marshal and the Betrayer :).Like you said ill send Khamul in with my first wave of attack(i always attack in waves with orcs).Dark marshal will support my armies attack from behind sat in a unit black numa numa norians(i usaully take tree companies of castellens with the cursed armour,combined that with F5 and it is a shocking unit!).Betrayer sits at the mo sits with the siege bows(got seven) untill i get some morgul knights.

Nu Fenix
24-04-2009, 22:07
With the Nine, I think ranking them is difficult as their uses vary depending on what the enemy are using, as well as your own army composition.
For example, The Undying is great against an army with lots of spellcasters [most likely Evil or Elves], but useless against one with no spellcasters.

I was planning to do a review of each of the Ringwraiths, so it would be best to include it here.

The Witch-king of Angmar - Shadow of Terror
The most expensive of them all, which is mainly due to his heightened combat statline. An extra 1 Fight and 2 Might over the others, allowing him to be more flexible with using his Might, better odds in a Heroic Duel, and also granting higher Fight to his company.
His other ability is best used when on a Fellbeast, as it allows him to either be behind your own army to rush them forward faster, or behind the enemy to try and slow them down.
Useable in Mordor and Angmar.

Khamul the Easterling - Essence Leech
The only character to offer a 5+ save to his formation, which is enhanced by either rebounding them onto an enemy formation within 12" or simply ignoring. The only way a better save can be made in the game is through Epic Sacrifice, which can only be done once, and only during the Fight phase. As such, the usefulness of Khamul's ability cannot be doubted, which stories of combats being won due to Essence Leech used as proof.
On a purely personal level, whilst he is useful, and the first Ringwraith I tried, I prefer the abilities of others as my first choice. That may be down to my style of playing, as well as trying out other characters to see how good they are.
Useable in Mordor and Fallen Realms.

The Undying - Arcana Leech
In the right situation, he is a very strong character, but without any or much spellcasting on the enemy's side, then he is the most useless out of all of the Ringwraiths.
His ability to make Will of Iron rolls without expending Might can either force the enemy to target another formation with their spells, and as such protect an important unit, or make them expend more effort in hoping that they go through.
In addition, his Mastery is increased for each enemy spellcaster within 12", giving you more options in spellcasting. If two within range, Sauron himself! [Although lacking Spells of Ruin.]
Useable in Mordor and Fallen Realms.

The Tainted - Miasmatic Presence
Very useful in Angmar forces, as the ability to stop formations using the Courage of a Hero makes it more likely to hit with Spirit Grasp attacks and also for them to fail Terror.
In a Mordor list or Angmar list with few spirits, I would make this a low priority choice of Ringwraith, as the abilities of many of the others will serve you better.
Useable in Mordor and Angmar.

The Dark Marshal - Rule through Fear
The first of his two abilities varies in use depending on the size of your army, and the selections involved. Being able to give Courage 5 to all friendly formations within 12" regardless of race is very useful, and one I have been grateful of in my games so far.
His second ability is the main reason he is used, as he can give his Fight value to an entire formation with 12", which can be his own if he needs more than just the command company to be Fight 5. Because the formation becomes Fight 5, it is used for comparing Fight values both attacking and defending, not just attacking as with using the Fight of a hero normally.
I like him, but unless you will be giving his Fight to another formation within 12" multiple times, I would use The Knight of Umbar instead. If you are granting it to another formation alot, decide if it would be better to move him to that formation instead.
Useable in Mordor and Fallen Realms.

The Shadow Lord - Cloak of Darkness
I haven't tried him out yet, so can only give my opinion from a theoretical perspective, and will say so now.
His utility is similar to The Undying in that it is limited on your opponent's army. If they pick an army with lots of shooting, such as an Elf army with archers and Haldir's Elves, then The Shadow Lord can protect one formation a turn by either preventing them being shot if at long range, or denying them bonus dice from accuracy [which won't impress Haldir].
They say prevention is better then the cure, and whilst he can mitigate being shot at, I think Khamul would do a better job of saving being shot. Personal experience has shown me that if you want to close quickly with the enemy [such as through Wings of Terror], then you will be in short range of shooting attacks anyway,
Useable in Mordor and Fallen Realms.

The Dwimmerlaik - Sap Fortitude
This is one ability I think the community overlooks. Which how quickly Might gets used in a game, having it where on a 4+ you need to spend another to make the initial one work or be wasted would put me off using Might in all but the most important of situations!
Against 1 Might heroes such as Dragon Knights, most spellcasters and some other cheap heroes, it could completely shut them down.
I hope to see him turn up in more battle reports and army lists, as although he may not be the number 1 pick for everyone, he should be high on the list.
Useable in Mordor and Angmar.

The Betrayer - The Bane of Kings
Currently this is my number 1 pick for Ringwraiths, as he works well with shooting and fighting. Dalamyr spends 1 Might to allow his formation to re-roll their missed hit, whereas The Betrayer does it constantly and for free every turn.
Imagine combining him with a maximum sized unit of Mordor Orcs with two-handed weapons. Against a unit with Defense 7 [Easterlings, Morannon Orcs with shields, Minas Tirith Warriors, etc], you would be hitting on 5s, but would be able to re-roll all your misses, allowing you to kill alot more models. If only one company was in contact, that would still be 24 attacks with re-rolls, discounting any more from higher Fight value. None too shabby, hey?
Useable in Mordor and Fallen Realms.

The Knight of Umbar - Combat Mimicry
Another high pick for me, and one I prefer over The Dark Marshal. Whilst his ability can only boost his own formation, it has the flexibility to copy either Strength or Fight, which depending on what you are fighting against, either give them less attacks [Fight], give you more attacks [Fight], or just hit easier [Strength].
Whilst the ability relies on something having a higher Strength or Fight within 12", if there is nothing better than your formation within range, either get closer or they only have weaker models.
Useable in Mordor and Fallen Realms.

So, there is my opinion on each of the Nine.

Some parts you may agree with, some you may disagree with, and others you may not have even put much thought into.

Marauder
27-04-2009, 15:30
Here's just a few things I've used my wraiths for:

Khamul - like ThrowN suggests take him in as big a formation of regular mordor orcs as you can. Don't buy them shields. Rush them towards the enemy (wings of terror). If they start killing them 1/3 of the hits will be reflected back. Before you get into combat, cast strength from corruption to give a huge boost to the formations fighting ability - and transfer some of the wounds to the enemy again!

Tainted - I love him on a fellbeast. Send him to harass enemy units. I usually do a swoop attack on the first turn to get him behind enemy lines. A good combo for your first two spells is usually sunder spirit followed by visions of woe. If the unit won't be able to get into combat you can cast strength from corruption on them for more damage. If you are worried about their shooting you can always go with Pall of darkness or transfix. In subsequent turns you'll probably want to start rear charge or flank charging units. Again start with sunderspirit then visions of woe, and finally terrifying aura (to add a further penalty to their terror check when you charge). The goal is to get them to fail their terror check so you get more attacks on account of their fight being 0. You can always use black breath if you are worried about a hero challenging you. Most of this isn't really that specific to the Tainted, he's just the best at it as he doesn't allow formations to use a heroe's courage (and believe me that 1 or 2 points makes the difference).

Witch king - I plan on using him in conjunction with Gorbag's morgul rats - who can make 2 on the double tests a turn - combined with the witch king that's 3 movements in the first turn... if you have a shaman in the unit than he can cast wings of terror - thus moving up to 36" before charging! You can take out enemy artillery/shooting units on turn 1!


The next formation I'm adding to my force is a largish formation of wargs lead by a wraith. Anyone have any suggestions as to which one (can't be one of the above)?

Zap Branigan!
27-04-2009, 23:22
I would say either the betrayer for combat or the shadow lord just a little bit more safety when ya trying to out flank your opponents army:)

Emissary
28-04-2009, 00:02
A couple of thoughts from Nu Fenix's post:

1) Witch King. I think he's about useless unless he's on a fellbeast. You just can't use his ability without it. However his increased might is the true winner that just about makes him worth it on foot. With allies and everything I just can't see him used unless he's mounted.

2) The Tainted. He's probably the one nazgul of them all that does better as the games get bigger. A lot of things in the mordor and evil lists cause terror or can get them. It's really easy to seed terror characters through your army with the nazgul. In my 1500 point army, I have 3 nazgul, the morgul knights, black numenoreans and a troll. Well over half the army causes fear. In addition, your opponent will tend to have more heroes as the points go up and you can have more spellcasters.

3) The Undying. His problem is that he doesn't have any way to help out his focus rolls. Hence the increased spellcasting rarely helps too much. I have problems enough getting the 9 to cast 3 spells, let alone more.

4) The Dark Marshal. I find his value goes down a bit in larger games. In Mordor armies the 9 tend to be used quite a bit in addition to Gothmog. All have a courage of 5, so if most of his units have a character, the inspiring leader is less useful which is a big part of his rules.

5) The Knight of Umbar. I find his ability to steal fight values is actually a good defensive measure. If his unit is in danger of having a ton of attacks against them, you can pick their hero/captain and zero out their attacks against you, or reduce the bonus attacks to 1 total if you have great weapons.

The rest I pretty much agree with.

Another thing to mention is that a ringwraith's big weakness is his 1 might, but Gothmog is great with them with his overlord rule. It allows you to use the epic strike + heroic duel ability or to call out multiple actions if needed.

And Marauder, I'm not a fan of taking epic heroes in cav units because it's too easy to get to them, especially if you take any of the upgrades like a hero, standard or whatnot. If you do, the wraith can't be in the command unit.

Marauder
28-04-2009, 17:20
And Marauder, I'm not a fan of taking epic heroes in cav units because it's too easy to get to them, especially if you take any of the upgrades like a hero, standard or whatnot. If you do, the wraith can't be in the command unit.

Hmm, good point. I wasn't planning on fielding any of the command upgrades right now, but had considered it for larger games.

Man, I wish the Nine abroad had the option of being mounted!!! Or at least the twilight ringwraiths!

Anyway, while we're on the subject, what do people thing about wargs and what's the best way to field them?

I am planning on having a healthy sized formation (4+ companies) with bows. I'm going with bows because of skilled rider and because I don't think giving them shields is really that exciting. However, I've been thinking just how bad they are at shooting, and wondering if just taking them with no upgrades would have made more sense. Not that I have an option because most of my figs are the metal ones with bows :cries:

In general I think a regular captain would be all that is required for support. You both need the ability to do on the double and something to prevent the failed charge. It would be great if they made a taskmaster model for them too, as the extra courage would be very nice.

I however, as mentioned above, am going to stick a wraith in there. The extra courage is very nice, and of course the spells are amazing - not to mention the terror. The only issue is the single point of might. Ah well, can't have it all!

@Zap - yes, those are both very good choices. I had considered the shadowlord before, but hadn't given the betrayer much thought. I can see how the betrayer would help give them a bit more out of their shooting, and of course make them very deadly on the charge. For me the choice would almost come down to who my opponent was. I guess I'll have to give them both a try (thank you generic wraith models!)

Angelust
02-05-2009, 01:21
On the dark Marshall. Use it to give a formation fight 10 with epic strike. Could you imagine a simple unit like charging wary riders all at fight 10? Could easily be a game winner

moar barmu
12-05-2009, 00:53
Can someone do a unit by unit summary for this faction and also a synopsis of the non-Ringwraith heroes of Mordor. Thanks

Emissary
29-05-2009, 17:58
Okay, finally getting around to getting this written. For the record, we do not play that you can epic strike before a duel because it's used at the start of a formation's fight.

Common Formations

Unit Upgrades
Captain: I usually put a captain into all my units except archers. The extra courage is necessary on orcs to bring them from below average to average, plus allows the units to at the double. The might is never bad. Being able to charge cav first or get a will of iron roll is never to be underestimated.

Banner: Banners are great on cav, but not as necessary on infantry. The reroll on panic tests won't help much unless you roll that 1 when you're below half companies and don't have a hero or if you're going for that 6. The reroll charge is nice and really good for cav to ensure they get that charge bonus, but on infantry depends on the availability of might to bump the 1 up to a 2 to still pass. Once battle is joined and the units start getting really close, the charge distance doesn't always matter, especially in infantry vs infantry battles.

Musician: I don't feel these guys are necessary at all and only bring one when I have 15 points I can't spend on anything else. +1 movement isn't great and doesn't affect your charge distance.

Taskmaster: Decent in units that don't have an epic hero, but only if you need the unit and have the points. Most units that run around either have the epic hero or aren't that necessary. +1 courage and a captain can turn your unit into an above average courage unit which can be helpful, especially when opponents are within 6" and you still only need a 7 to solve being disordered or at the double.

Mordor Orcs
Mordor orcs are our cheap infantry. They aren't great at doing anything on their own other then dying. Their biggest issues are their 3 defense and their 2 courage. You'll find they die in droves and that they can be hard to pass at the double, terror and disordered checks. Luckily you can buy a lot of them. I feel buying the captian helps to solve the leadership problem a bit, but it's only really fixed by bringing a ringwraith or gothmog. The mob rule though is fantastic for them. Since you can buy 9 stands you can both absorb a lot of the wounds you take without losing attacks from the front and you can also get some good mileage out of them.

Orc with bows: A cheap way to get some firepower into the unit. They don't get an accuracy bonus and don't like to get shot at. One good thing is that if they are in defensible terrain and can't all attack because the capacity is low, their supporting attack still get 2 shots.

Orcs with shields: A servicible unit. They're about as middle of the road as it gets for the poor orcs. The biggest issue they have other then being an orc is that they're the same points as a morannon orc without shields. A morannon orc gets +1S and keeps the 5D on side and rear attacks with the loss of the mob rule.

Orcs with great weapons: My favorite version of the mordor orcs. They'll die fast and will rarely win a fight, but they'll take a good number of the enemy down with them. My feeling is that this unit only really comes into their own if they have at least 7 companies becuase they need to get a decent amount of attacks back. They also usually advance up the table 3 wide unless there isn't room so it doesn't matter a ton if they get charged. This formation really gets better with the addition of the betrayer, khamul or knight of umbar. The betrayer allows every single attack to be rerolled which can make the bucket of dice this unit throws out turn into an avalanche. I think this is the only real way the unit has won a battle of casualties for me. Khamul can help to turn their horrid D3 into a bonus for them as you'll get the chance to rebound a ton of wounds back. The knight is the 3rd option well below the other two. He can give the unit more attacks, defense against some other attacks by denying extra attacks against them or give your unit a good strength, but is very dependant on what you opponent brings and has nearby.

Morannon Orcs
Mordor's ultimate anvil unit. There's nothing wrong with a S4 D7 unit that only costs 25 points other then their low courage. This unit can withstand a lot of punishment and still keep going. The S4 also helps against every even numbered defense unit. S3 wounds D6 on a 6 while S4 does it on a 5. It also helps that the morannon orc box comes with 3 stands right away, so you only have to buy 2 boxes to get a full sized unit. One of the first things in my lists is always a 6 company morannon unit with shields and gothmog. Epic defense on this is fantastic and can absorb almost any charge without too many problems plus Gothmog solves their courage problem. I actually think this unit is about 5 points/company undercosted. I haven't figured out why they think that terror and -1S (my Black Numenoreans) is 10 points more expensive then a morannon orc stand.

Orc Trackers
A unit you won't see too often due to the fact they're metal. They're 50% more points then mordor orcs with bows and don't get the mob rule, but do get ambushers, pathfinders and prowlers and an accuracy bonus. Put them into some terrain where they'll get some good flanking shots (to avoid shields) and they'll do well, and if they're close they'll also deny some movement. Having an ambushing, prowling unit as a common unit is very underrated IMO. They can thin out that dangerous unit at the right time or cause your opponent's battleline to have to adjust to something new right away.

Warg Riders
Cheap cav that have one underrated bonus: They can be in formations up to 9 companies. This size can let them take a lot of casualties and keep going, plus can charge multiple parts of a battleline at once. In addition they have throwing weapons so can shoot them then still charge adding to their attacks as long as they don't at the double. Their D5 is average, but can't stand up to a ton of firepower, but again you can have 9 of them. I'm not sold on bows on them as you don't get many attacks and can't charge after firing them. The nastiest combination I've seen has been 9 stands of warg riders with shields, the betrayer and the +1S feat. At this point you get a lot of S5 attacks that all get to reroll misses (both for the throwing weapons and melee attacks), strikes before infantry and has the ability to get an earth shattering charge.

Mordor Uruk-Hai
A decent unit that's really hamstrung by the fact that they're metal. You won't see a lot of these unless they're proxied or converted. They've got a good fight and courage, but have a low defense. The great weapons on them are also really good and would be my suggestion should you bring them. Overall though, they aren't that different then the mordor orcs with great weapons, only a bit more elite, but also a lot more expensive both in money and points.

Morgul Stalkers
Another common ambushing unit. They've got a good strength plus prowlers so can put quite a hurting on your opponent should they get that flank or rear charge. Their problem is that they don't have a natural hero so you'll have to bring an epic hero should you want any might with them. They still have a low courage and if there are enemies with 6" they probably will fail that courage test to leave the terrain and then you won't get to charge. They also are 5 points more expensive then the orc trackers but function in much of the same way which is a factor.

Emissary
29-05-2009, 17:59
Rare Formations

Mordor Troll
They have a good fight, defense and strength for a monster. They also strike first, only get into base to base with 1 company and only lose if they die. I find it's usually better to field 2 of them to get more attacks and try to get them both on the same company. The high strength also allows them to wound most things effectively. The problem is that hard to kill really should be renamed easy to kill, especially with might around. All they have to do is get 2 hits on you and then bump that 5 up to a 6 with a point of might and your expensive troll just died. They'll usually get attacks back at you as you aren't going to do enough wounds to anything but the smallest formations to really affect how many attacks they'll get. What's really nice is if they don't kill you, they'll pretty much always lose (unless you are really unlucky with your attacks) and have to fall back and usually be disordered. One more thing I see many people forget is that they get throwing attacks. You can only move 4" and throw, but when you're close it's a good source of 3 extra S7 attacks.

Mordor Troll Drummer
50% more points for a troll that counts as a drummer for all models with a radius around it. The extra cost is a little over 3 more drums for you. It's really only good for things that can't have drummers like other trolls but it still isn't an attractive option for me for the same reason a regular one isn't: namey that +1 movement isn't that important and doesn't affect your charge distance.

Mordor Troll Chieftan
The real money troll. 1 Mordor Troll Chieftan > 2 regular mordor trolls even though they cost the same for 1 reason: 2 might. The might means it can at the double and, more importantly, call out heroic actions. A fight value of 8 means it will beat most other heroes in a duel and then still fight well. It can also call out heroic fight so that it can charge in, not die and then be able to charge (in any direction since it's a monster) again. It also has the ability that when it calls out a heroic charge other trolls within 6" also have to for free. This is nice, but they all don't charge at once, rather, 1 at a time. Because of this your opponent will go between every other charge. It's neat but not great unless they don't have any might. Usually the first troll charges and ties up the target right away and the others don't matter since their target is stuck. The very hard to kill is a bit better then hard to kill, but with might you can still 1-shot the thing as 2 of my last 3 games have proved (to me at least). Don't forget throwing weapons for your free 3 S8 attacks when you're close too.

Black Guard of Barad-dur
IMO, a very underrated and over-ignored unit. Probably due to the fact that they don't have an official model and don't have a picture in the book. They're uruks on steroids pretty much. 5 basic fight, S4, D5(7) with, most importantly, berserk. They'll have either a S6 or S8 in fights which can damage most other things in the game reliably. The captain also has a fight value of 6 which allows him to duel regularly and consistantly. Most of my opponents have been surprised to see my unit champion not only seriously duel their high level epic hero, but beat him soundly. They also have the defense to take on many things and not lose many models. Their only, and not that important, weakness is that they can only have 3 companies in a formation. Still, what makes them better then uruk berserkers, court of the dead kings or similar formations is that they can get multiple companies into a fight for a cost that isn't 100+ points per company. Also, for some reason they're rares and not legendary so you can have multiple formations if you wish (which is a scary thought to me).

Mordor War Catapult
It can do some good damage, especially against that 9 company Rough Rider fomation or a large opposing orc formation, but is 2x the cost of a siege bow but doesn't do 2x much more damage. It does have a very large range, which can really help when you play on the ends of the table rather then a standard setup. Also, remember you can put up to 3 of them into 1 formation which can increase the damage they do as they base their table modifier before any casualties are done and before the resilience resets.

Mordor Siege Bow Battery
Another popular choice. They're very cheap for what you get and you can have up to three of them in one formation. They have an excellent 48" range and a great strength. Most often used to start thinning out large formations or to start getting wound counters on that large monster like the balrog or mumak. Either way they can have a good effect on the battle without taking a lot of your points. Remember they can't move though so keep them with a good field of fire and be wary of flying monsters or ambushers.

Mordor Battering Ram
Can't see this one used except in specific scenarios. The stats on it are terrible and it won't get any mileage out of it's points.

Emissary
29-05-2009, 18:00
Legendary Formations

Shagrat's Tower Guard
An urk formation that comes with a standard and musician and a decent special rule. The same problem with the regular uruks kicks in with them: namely they're expensive money-wise. Shagrat does give them a better then average hero to lead them. His special ability is excellent but the problem is that you have to fail the test to get it to kick in. Hence you can't necessarily get that berserk to kick in when you want it to plus he's got a good courage value which can decrease the amount of times the unit fails the test.

Castellans of Dol Guldur
Excellent fighting unit that is hideously expensive. They move well and hit hard (especially with spirit grasp). They also have a good defense, resilience 2 and indomitable. Thier biggest non-points cost issue is that they can't have a hero nor can they have an epic hero. This means no at the double and they can't heroically charge or heroically fight without another unit in the fight. Gothmog can help out with this, but it leads to him babysitting them a bit (with their points cost it will happen anyway). Overall for the points cost I like the Black Guard better as they both hit similarly most of the time, but you get 3 stands of black guard with a champion for 80% of the cost of 2 stands of Castellans.

Gorbag's Morgul Rats
Mordor Orcs with an above average hero, standard and musician. The same things that were said about the mordor orcs stand here. I think I like them best with great weapons to really get into someone's face. Gorbag has an excellent special ability that can lead you to moving all the way across the table in 1 turn should you wish it, though remember you'll probably be unsupported, which gets even better if you cast wings on them from the darkness list for a potential 3x12" move with a D6+8" charge. They're great for chasing down cav, outflanking your opponent or moving in to take out his artillary early. I also think that a taskmaster is more important in them if you don't have an epic hero to make sure you get both at the double rolls off.

Shelob
Probably the 2nd underrated, over-ignored unit in the list. She's probably the best ambusher in the game other then treebeard. She's fast, got a good fight, defense, strength, 3 might and some fantastic special rules. She gets a lot of attacks on the charge and being able to reroll all of them means she can kill a lot of guys for a monster. Having 3 might gives her a lot of flexibility in that she can at the double and call out heroic actions. I've seen her kill over 60 dwarves in one game as she rampaged around. Her problem is the same that the troll have: she's hard to kill. I've also had her do some damage, then my opponent get 2 hits back, roll a 4, blow 2 might and watch her go legs up and die on me. I think it's much more important for her to duel out the champion/hero first, get rid of their might, then start fighting the company to protect her from that fate.

Grishnakh's Trackers
Another legendary version of a common formation. Again, the tracker stuff is applied here. Grishnakh allows them to at the double, then heroic shoot and hit them from the flank or rear easier to rid them of a shield defense bonus and to let them kick in the prowler ability much easier. His ability will also add 2 shots per company which is also very helpful, especially if you're in the flank and within 12".

The Necromancer
The weenie version of Sauron. He's pretty much all spellcasting. He can cast well and the ruin spells are a welcome addition to the army, but at the same time he isn't that much better of a caster then a ringwraith. He also fights average for a monster in melee. The big killer is that he's a monster, hence out on his own and they roll on the hard to kill table against him. Hence for the points investment it's easy to kill him, especially when you get might involved. You'll have to be very careful with him to make sure he doesn't get an arrow in the visor that has a might ticket stamped on it.

The Nine are Abroud
Probably one of the most powerful formations in the game. They get every single ability the ringwraiths possess. Can throw out up to 9 different spells every turn and have 9 might for a steep points cost. The abilities are fantastic on them. They have a 5+ save, reroll all their misses, free will of iron rolls, get to copy their opponent's strength or fight value, can't be shot over 12" and so on plus spirit walk, spirit grasp and terror amongst other things. The spell selection can help them move and mess up their opponent through a lot of debuffs. Their biggest problem is that they're only R2 rather then R3 like the good hero formations so die quicker. They suffer at the hands of monsters and cav should they get charged as well as anything that does auto-hits or has mighty blow. They also start to fall apart as they lose ringwraiths and their associated abilities. Also, unlike the good hero formations, the 9 might is only on the witch king and he is a hero. Hence he can be dueled and killed, costing you all the might plus the duel auto-hits. Also, remember that if you take this unit you can't use winged nazgul and will only have 3 non-ally epic heroes available.

Twilight Ringwraiths
Each stand is very expensive, easy to kill and not that impressive. All 3 stands costs you all of your ringwraiths but gives you substantially weaker versions. The only good thing about this unit is that each stand counts as a separate spellcaster, so they can spam the same spells and if one fails a focus test, the next stand can start in. However, this stand is more expensive then a single ringwraith which gives you the same thing but goes into another unit and has a great ability.

Sauron
The big doggie himself. Again really expensive, but has great stats plus a good selection of epic abilities. He can fight well and cast well at the same time. He also gets a lot of spells and can can debuff to make himself even better. Even better then all of this he gets to use a free epic ability every turn without getting into his might in addition to being able to spend a free point of might every turn. Hence he can use 2 free epic abilities, 1 free epic and 1 free heroic or 1 free epic and 1 free dice modification. The only downfall to him is the crappy very hard to kill rule. Again, some rohan peasant with some unwashed captain can shoot him in the balls with a might stamped arrow and ruin your day.

Winged Nazgul
Fantastic models for fantastic additions to the army. They fight well, have a good defense, are about the fastest things in the game and can cast spells while doing it. The 6 strength + spirit grasp means they wound most things on a 3-4+ which usually drops it to a 3+ with sunder spirit. The swoop attack is great to get them into position over other units without having to at the double. They can't charge after doing it but can cast. In addition it can be used to get out of charge arcs, out of shooting arcs and get them to move half speed or for that -1 to disordered tests. Even though they're large models they can't be seen through enemy models which also helps to shield them from fire. They're great at foiling your opponent's plans as long as you remember that they aren't gods on the battlefield. Again, their downfall is that they're hard to kill which I've already mentioned about 300 times. Here's a breakdown about which ringwraiths are good and which aren't for a winged fellbeast mount:

The Good:
The Witch King: This is the only way to take him. You can start him behind your army, have all of them go first and auto-pass their at the double checks, then swoop forward to get moving. Auto-passing terror is also fantastic against elf or angmar armies. If you get to go first you can also swoop him behind your opponents lines to foil their movement and can help when those cav try to at the double out of there. The higher fight and 3 might also makes him a much better fighter and duelist then the regular mounted nazgul.

The Dwimmerlaik: Being able to fly near their army and stay on their flanks can mess up their might usage badly. It only has a 50% chance of working, but when it works a time or two it gets into your opponent's head. Most opponents I've seen start second guessing wether or not what they're about to spend the might on is really worth it, especially if it will cost them 2 might or not even work.

The Tainted: You can use him to make their main battle line all have big problems with any courage tests, especially terror, at the double, disordered, panic or random tests from your spells. Being on the fell beast allows him maximum placement to affect the most of their army possible.

The Shadow Lord: His ability will allow him to fly around with impunity and limit how many attacks you get againt him. Great for a model that fears the hard to kill table so much.

Betrayer: Good if you want a melee winged nazgul, but watch out for the might-hard to kill rolls in retaliation

The Bad
Khamul: With his D8 and potential to be killed quickly he won't have that many rolls to rebound unless you get really lucky (unlucky)

Dark Marshal: The inspiring hero and his other ability can be used equally well on the ground if you place him correctly and keep your army together.

The Undying: Extra casting on him isn't that great unless you can keep passing those focus tests, plus he can still do it in a unit. In addition the free focus tests depend on your opponent.

The Knight of Umbar: His 6 strength + spirit grast already doesn't really need help. He also has a fight of 5 which isn't usually going to get improved much either. He does a lot better in units.

Emissary
29-05-2009, 18:01
Epic Heroes

Gothmog
Maybe the best hero in the game, point for point. He's got good stats, 4 might and a 5 courage for a low points cost. He also counts as an army banner so that's another 35+ points you get free. The overlord ability is great as a might battery for your low might heroes like ringwraiths or champions. Want that unit over there to heroic charge and then heroic fight, but only have 1 might on the champion? Never fear, Gothmog's here! 24" for overlord is quite a bit of the table. His copying ability is great as you can get some really nice free stuff like epic rampage or poison with it and can make your opponent a little skittish about using epic/heroic actions if he knows you'll get it also for free. Lastly, epic defense is very underrated. If used on your morannon orcs they get a defense of 9 which makes them stupidly hard to kill. I've seen 6 companies of easterling kataphrakts charge them, only wound on 6/4s and do almost nothing and lose because of it. Overall he's the best package in the army and practically an auto-include unless you have fluff reasons against it.

The Mouth of Sauron
Same points as a shaman but better, 25 points less then a ringwraith and much worse. You shouldn't ever bring a shaman while this guy is around, but then you shouldn't ever bring this guy if you have 25 extra points and haven't bought all the ringwraiths unless you have fluff reasons. For the 25 points the ringwraith fights better, has a better courage, has an awesome special ability, can potentially cast 1 more spell and has a better epic action. Overally there isn't much this guy brings to the table other then looking cool.

Kardush the Firecaller
A much better version of a shaman for the same points. Same stats, but uses the ruin spells rather then the darkness spells plus can cast up to 2 spells and has 2 epic abilities. Early you can use him to fireball your opponent as you close, then when you start fighting, you can use the 2 melee spells to give your unit the rerolls on 1-2 and the fantastic shatter shields. He's also great against ents and the only source of ruin spells amongst our epic heroes. I really dig this guy.

Ringwraiths
All of them bring some really good things to the table. First they all have a decent fight value of 5 (6 for the witch king), a good command of 5, but only have a resilience of 2 and 1 might (3 for the witch king). They also only have 1 epic ability and are level 3 darkness/dismay casters. They're a good combination of abilities but the lack of might can really hurt them. I've taken to running captains in their units to help with heroic charges and dice modifications. They're also easy to duel with their medium fight value and 2 resilience. I've had/seen a lot of them killed this way. The do bring terror into the unit and have a good selection of spells which can act like good buffs/debuffs or can mess up your opponent's battleplans.

Now I'm going to lay out a basic set of tiers for the ringwraiths that's my own opinion as to their power and use and why:

The best
1) The Betrayer: Probably the only underpriced ringwraith. He allows you to reroll every attack in the unit which is filthy. Given the volume of attacks you can roll in the army this gets pretty bad. The 3 units he's usually running around in is 9 companies of great weapon mordor orcs, 9 companies of S5 warg riders or a full unit of Black Guard of Barad-dur. He's going to cause your formation to remove entire companies of the opponent, sometimes even whole formations depending on how many they have. He's even worse when you throw in Amdur and his epic rampage ability. The biggest worry is him getting dueled and killed before your formation fights and gets the ability.

The upper crust
2) Khamul: I know a lot of people will rank him ove the Betrayer, but he isn't that way in my experience both with him and in multiple games against my friend's easterling army. You'll hear a lot of cries of broken about him, especially early (at least until they see the betrayer in the units I described above). His ability is solely based around the defense of the unit he's in. The lower the defense, the more hits the unit takes, the more saves he rolls, the more hits rebounded. That being said, he only rebounds about 1/3 of the hits you take, so it's dependant on what's attacking you and how many attacks they're rolling. He can swing a 3 casualty loss into a 2 casualty win. I prefer the betrayer though because he isn't dependant on my opponent's unit and the potential for carnage is so great.

3) The Tainted: Probably the most under-appreciated one of the 9. Not letting units use the hero's command is huge in this game. It makes terror 100% better, especially with the dismay spells. He also has a very large radius of effect and screws up other tests like panic tests, disordered tests and at the double tests.

Above Average
4) The Knight of Umbar: Completely dependant on your opponent. He can give some extra attacks or extra stength or give nothing. Half the time my unit can't get any extra strength as we're both the same and I might get +1 or +2 fight which gives me an extra 2 or 4 attacks since he already has a 5. The extra fight can reduce the number of attacks back at him though. He really shines when you can copy that balrog's fight of 10 or that mumak's strength 8. Leaving it up to your opponent is always a problem though and why I bumped him here.

5) The Dwimmerlaik: In a game where might is king, this guy has some really good potential. I had one 1000 point game where he worked 5 out of 6 times and limited his heroes dramatically. I had another game where he worked 1 out of 4 times and didn't do a lot. He has a good psychological edge when he works that can limit how often your opponent will want to use might points which is great.

6) The Dark Marshall: Depends on your army. If you have a lot of heroes running around, his courage is less important. Being able to share his fight is nice, but it depends on what's fighting with him. Most times it will be a few attacks but it won't be better then rerolling every attack with the betrayer.

The worst
7) The Shadow Lord: Shooting in the game is okay, but against most units it won't do a ton as you close. He is good against artillary from shooting you up, but for regular archers he isn't better then the guys above. Plus once you get close, they can still shoot, but they lose their accuracy which most of the time is only a few attacks.

8) The Undying: Completely dependant on your opponent's army. The extra spells only matter if you roll focus tests well. I usually don't even get 3 spells off. The free will of iron is nice, but only if you're targeted. Against a lot of the armies out there it won't be that helpful.

9) The Witch King: Pretty sad he's at the bottom, but his special ability is so worthless in units. You have to be behind your units for this to work, so either he starts in at back unit and then moves foward never to get another ability usage or you get nothing. Being in a unit also means he won't get behind you opponent too often. What he's reduced to is 200 points for 3 might and 1 epic ability. Not that great.

Angelust
29-05-2009, 20:48
What do you think is the best use for "9 are abroad"?

They're not really a combat unit, and their spellcasting is bottlenecked by no epic channeling....

Emissary
29-05-2009, 23:10
They're just a good toolbox. They can do it all but you have to be careful with them. I don't think they're a good front line unit, but would work well as a flanking or counter-charging unit

Nu Fenix
30-05-2009, 12:59
Very nicely done Emissary.

And I concur with you about Betrayer being better than Khamul, as I kept saying to people last Monday at a tournament. I would rather wipe out the enemy, then assume they will hit me and hope some of it deflects back.

fracas
01-06-2009, 01:54
since they are particularly affordable, what would you think are particularly interesting ringwraiths duo combinations?

Emissary
01-06-2009, 11:27
There really aren't many since their abilities are rather specific. Probably the best is the dark marshal plus the knight of umbar. The knight copies the fight value of something for his formation then the dark marshal passes that same fight value off to another formation as well. The knight of umbar plus the betrayer can make the unit particulary hard. I also like khamul plus the betrayer in a 9 company orc unit with great weapons as it gives them good offense, plus more offense and defense because of their defense 3. Lastly, a minor one that can be nice is the dwimmerlaik plus undying. The between the 2 of them you can get 6+ spells and the dwimmerlaik can make any will of iron tests cost 2 might. The biggest problem with that is that the undying could get more spells, but you have to pass a lot of focus tests without help.

Marauder
02-06-2009, 15:46
Great write-up Emissary! I hadn't noticed that Shelob was an ambusher, nor had I realized that Prowler worked on shooting attacks!

I think I'm getting more excited about my warg unit with bows - which I'm now definitely going to lead with the Betrayer.

I was in a small tourney this past weekend. I did quite well and mostly due to my wraiths. My unit huge orc block with Khamul used Wings of Terror and Strength from corruption quite a bit. I love casting strength from corruption when I'm close to the enemy and transferring a hit or two onto them as well. But the wings can let you get off first turn charges (task master is quite handy for a more reliable at-the-double).

Angelust
02-06-2009, 16:30
Wait, prowler works on shooting attacks? And you can negate shield bonuses with flank and rear shooting attacks too?

Emissary
02-06-2009, 16:36
Shields only give you a defense bonus to attacks from the front. Any attacks, be it shooting or melee, don't have to worry about the shield bonus. It's in the shield rules.

Prowlers only works in hth (Edit, got this one wrong originally)

Angelust
02-06-2009, 16:40
Wow. That would make my Moria goblin archers "teh sex".

Edonil
02-06-2009, 17:43
I agree completely with you on the Black Guard of Barad-dur. I've gotten to use them a couple times (I stick Gothmog in there) and they hurt. 250 points for a full formation minus a shaman, but absolutely worth it. Gothmog's Epic Defense in them is also extremely mean- Defense 9 with a potential S6-S8 attack is very painful. Granted, the formation doesn't benefit from Gothmog's Fight value, but they're a hard to kill unit, that do a lot of damage, so they'll keep him alive for a while.

Emissary
02-06-2009, 23:42
Aaaaaand I got the prowlers rule wrong. It only works in hand to hand.

Angelust
03-06-2009, 01:18
Haha. I guess Goblin Bowmen are now just "the sex"...

Angelust
03-06-2009, 01:53
I can't remember, why doesn't the black guard benefit from Gothmog's fight? (At least the command company)

Edonil
03-06-2009, 02:06
the Black Guard have a natural Fight of 5, and the Captain's is 6. Gothmog's Fight is the same as the rest of the formation.

Angelust
05-06-2009, 09:57
So I played with the 9 abroad today. They were ridiculously good for their points.

In small games, they can maneuver into really advantageous positions, and completely disorient and screw the enemy. Wings of Terror + At the Double + Spirit Walk means they're basically going where they want.

The only downside is that it's hard to remember all of their rules. I was looking at the rulebook every few seconds...

Morthak
30-06-2009, 19:16
Mordor is one of the most versatile armies, even though you can take allies in WotR. The Nazgl are the most powerfull wizards for their costs and Morannon Orcs are some of the best common troops, I don't see any reason why not to take them.

I seem to prefer a fast army with cavalry, infantry with wraiths or at least a drummer and monsters, which all have or are heroes to gain the precious AtD. Trackers are also great for their points, they do lack defence, but ambushing with prowling makes up for it. I always ally Morgul Knights, not only because I have the models, but also because they are very effective cavalry with Terror.

My 1000pts list for a local tournament this week:

Gothmog - Great for his points, my army leader.
The Betrayer - A wraith had to be included, him being the best choice for the unit he will be in.

6 Companies Morannon Orc Warband with schields and Drummer - I had 15 pts left, and they are worth it. Gothmog will join them to create a powerfull anvil.
4 Companies Wargrider Warband with shields, banner and Captain - cheap, effective and fast, they had to be included. They stay close to Gothmog to receive Heroic Advance.
2 Companies Orc Tracker Warband - I had to take archers, and they seemed best, as they can show up near the enemy without having to move around and get shot.
3 Companies Black Guard of Barad-dr with Captain - I love them, they kill most monsters easily, and because the Betrayer joins them, they smash their way through everything! I chose Captain instead of Banner as I wanted him to duel against wraith-threats.
3 Companies Morgul Knights with Knight Commander - Great models, fast and Terror can be deadly with the Wraith supporting.

The BGoBD are so dangerous with Wings of Terror, that they killed Quickbeam in turn one, while being in combat with a formation of Galadhrim Knights in the first turn, because my opponent underestimated them. They are good monsterkillers, I'd recommend them to everyone with a Wraith. The Betrayer, the Tainted or The Dwimmerlaik would work best IMO.
The Morannon Orcs work like a dream with Gothmog in them. Not only does the C5 help out, but Overlord, Army Banner and Master of Battle makes him a true master of battle! Epic Defence turn them into an unbreakable unit!
Warg Riders' true weakness is their reliability. C3 is too low to get every AtD and pass every Terror Test. They do alot in your battle, or nothing at all. To make them more trustworthy, a taskmaster is a good option, if the points would have let me.
Morgul Knights are my hammer. They swoop around terrain pieces to charge poor formations in the rear or flank, doing heavy damage in the proces.
Trackers are good for their points, but they are always supporting in my battles, they hardly do anything, but enough for their cost.

I'll soon expand the Mordor army to 1500, adding Khamul in the 9 comp 2handers and increasing the size of most formations, turning the Trackers into Grishnakh's trackers (3 comps), which seems to me as a pretty good choice.

My only fear is this Isengard army:

The Undying
Shark's Hunters (4 comps with shields)

4 Comps Uruk-Hai with shields and banner (joinded by the Undying)
2 Comps Uruk-hai Phalanx
2 Comps Uruk-hai Phalanx
3 Comps Wargriders with shields
2 Comps Uruk-hai with crossbows
2 Comps Orcs with bows
1 Comp Uruk-Hai Sappers
Isengard Troll Chieftain

I'm afraid he has such a large amount of formations will swallow my small army. And that his archery will tear holes in every formation. Does anyone have fought against Isengard with Mordor, or the other way round? I'd like some advice on this, but then again, I might not need it.

,Morthak

Emissary
30-06-2009, 19:24
Those are really small formations in that isengard army. It won't be too hard to do some damage to them and reduce them to the point where they aren't effective. Just keep your army together and hit them at once. Also, he doesn't have any captains in that army so there will be very little might. Hence you can use terror effectively and can get the charge on him when you want.

Morthak
30-06-2009, 19:44
Ok, thanks. I haven't fought against them yet, and that is why I needed confirmation. I think the pikemen will be easily slain, and his non-sharku formation easily destroyed.

Is my way to play Mordor good enough? My whole army is on the opponents side in the first turn, and I'm very often in combat right away. It works fine for me now, but will larger battles be unfit for this style of play? Oh, and is my army any good?

,Morthak

darkened sun
09-02-2010, 00:43
reviving/saving this thread.

can anyone tell me why so many WOTR threads like this got deleted all those months ago? it's not like there more than even one page of threads in the tactics section right now. maybe they get auto-deleted when nobody posts on em

Nu Fenix
09-02-2010, 15:38
They don't get deleted - It is just the default thread viewer only shows the past month. Change it to forever and you see alot more ;)

Nu Fenix
25-02-2010, 15:51
To continue the necromancy here, I am thinking of putting my Fallen Realms on hold for a while, and moving on to Mordor instead.

So, since it was all the way back in May 2009 that Emissary posted his [her?] excellent tactica. However, it means we have all had nearly a year to get more practice with them, and see what formations are better/worse then originally thought. We have also had models actually made, such as Kardush and Black Guard, which some may not have used or had used against them until they were really made.

I'm thinking that the bulk of my army will be Mordor Orcs with two-handed weapons for killing power, Morannon Orcs for staying power, and Emissary's wonderful combo of a nine company strong formation of Wargs with Tormented Steeds and led by The Betrayer. Even though they're metal, I'm thinking of a full formation of Black Guard too.
This will probably be supported by another Ringwraith, Gothmog, Shelob, and Kardush.

I'm aiming for 2k games, as due to the big WOTR events going on in America at the moment, I think it is likely that the upcoming GT may also be 2k.

The one thing I see as a major weakness of Mordor, and would like suggestions on this, is the lack of pikes. Isengard and my beloved Fallen Realms have pikes, whilst Angmar can put out an extreme amount of Terror, which makes it harder to charge them. But Mordor don't. Should I accept the fact I am likely to be charged, and hope to drag more of them down with me, or try and get the charge in with Shelob, Trolls, Wargs and Heroic Charges?

Morthak
25-02-2010, 18:44
Pall of Night? With three wraiths they won't be able to get the charges against you, without pikes, Mordor handles it fine.

Morthak

Nu Fenix
25-02-2010, 19:06
I hadn't thought about Pall of Night, thanks for reminding me of that spell - I always focused on other spells, such as Wings of Terror, Strength from Corruption and most of Dismay.

Whilst they will try to negate it with Will of Iron, it is a good way to force them to burn through their Might.

Anything else spring up Morthak?

I'm debating the viability of Mordor Orcs with two-handed weapons. Are they worth it, or will you lose more then they do, even with the +1 to hit, and end up losing combat? Or do they rely on Khamul/Betrayer to support them and use their abilities to tip the scale?

Because of the lack of playing locally [which I'm hoping to change], I currently have nothing but Warseer to help me know if the amount of stuff I have in a Mordor army is good.

I just worked out a 2k list based on formations I mentioned in my previous post, which ends up with 4 common formations costing 775, 4 rare formations costing 750, and 3 epic heroes costing 360. In total there are 35 companies on the board, of which 2 are monsters, 9 are cavalry and the rest are infantry.

But should a Mordor army be a massive horde backed up by Gothmog and Ringwraiths, or is there room for Trolls, artillery, Legendary Formations, and so on?

Should Troll Captains be used for Heroic Dueling, Heroic Fighting, or trying to do both? As the best they can do is both once, but seem like either can be done as a sole focus. Or is dependant on what the enemy is, and if they're Resilience 2?

Reinholt
25-02-2010, 23:25
My thoughts:

1 - I don't think the lack of pikes is a bit problem as long as you have enough Morannon Orcs. They absorb charges pretty well with their numbers and their D7, and if you are really concerned, you can put Khamul with them to be able to reflect back enough hits that you will actually wipe out a lot of cavalry formations that hit you.

2 - There are definitely some units in the army that stand out above the others. I'm not a huge fan of the 2H weapon orcs (they die in such huge numbers that I just can't convince myself they are good; maybe it is the huge amount of shooting in the local area, but the staying power is very low), but I am a huge fan of both Mordor Orcs and Black Guard.

3 - Warg Riders are decent, but I don't regard them as top tier. Still, proper combinations with them can be very powerful, so I don't mind the Betrayer in a large formation. Again, shooting can be a problem.

4 - Definitely make sure to bring some siege bows, if you can fit the points. Probably your best defense against things like Ents and large blocks of Minas Tirith warriors.

5 - I definitely think there can be room for Trolls, artillery, and legendary formations (especially the Castellans, who are amazingly good when used correctly). Troll captains are good, normal trolls are good augmentation to units (use them as combined arms to charge with both), and artillery can be key to facing some of the more problematic good units.

Nu Fenix
26-02-2010, 00:37
Thanks for the input Reinholt.

Your opinion on the poor success of your Orcs with 2HW supports my thoughts that I should stick to Morannon Orcs for the bulk of my Common, as well as the army overall.

For Wargs, I was thinking of only having the one maxed out formation of them, and no others. I see Wargs as a glass cannon, and definitely a go big or go home unit.

I was thinking about some Siege Bows, for the support of some powerful shooting. I was debating them versus Catapults, but it seems completely one-sided and that Catapults just don't come close to Siege Bows for effectiveness.

However Castellans are something I'm dubious about, due to their high cost of them. The big thing that puts me off is the fact they can't have a Hero, so no ATD! or declaring heroic actions. However Indomitable, R2 and D7 seem very nice. I just think how many other things I can get instead of two or even three companies of them.

darkened sun
26-02-2010, 11:35
Mordor are my main Evil army. I also have alot of Fallen Realms as well, but there are so many exotic Mordor units to choose from than FR which is more rank and file.

This is my 2k army,

Gothmog
The Betrayer
Khamul
The Dwimmerlaik
The Tainted
Kardush

9 Mordor Orcs + shields, captain
6 Morannon Orcs + shields, captain
2 Orc Archers
Mordor Troll Chieftain
Mordor Troll

6 Easterling Warriors + captain
6 Kataphrakts + captain

Tokens of Terror (Kataphrakts)

1,995 points

Mordor with some Easterling allies. Tokens of Terror is a really good Fate since you can combine it with the ringwraith's -Courage spells, plus the Tainted. Hopefully it'll stop the Kataphrakts from getting charged.
***
Castellans are a bit slow since they can't At the Double. They are a bit inflexible since they have no might, etc.

Not a huge fan of thw on Orcs because it leaves them at a devastating D3. You want D4 minimum for units you are getting into combat with. OK, you could bounce back more wounds with Khamul that way, but still.

Yeah, for wargs you need at least 6 companies. 9 is awesome, since so few cavalry formations can take that many companies. Their D4 sucks, but hey. They have high strength plus throwing weapons. I only have 6 warg riders (1 box). I wanted to get some more but I prefer sticking to heavier cavalry (i.e. kataphrakts).

Tormented steeds is an excellent upgrade for a cav formation. There is also the same fate for infantry (+1S), but take some hits if they loose.

A decent Mordor army is basically Gothmog, plus 2-4 ringwraiths, kardush, 2 max. size orc units (mordor or morannon), some cav (ally to Fallen Realms for heavier cav), plus some monsters like Trolls or something else.

Black Guard are great. If you look on the GW website, the latest article about the Nazgul there's a WOTR army where the guy used morannon orcs for black guard, simply painting them in a black colour scheme. They are definitely black guard, although they aren't mentioned on the actual army list cuz of some typo. The metal models are awesome, but oh-so-expensive. Morannon orcs or uruk hai warriors are a decent alternative.

Sedge
26-02-2010, 12:11
It looks quite small for a Mordor army. I have almost as many models in my 1k list :D. I was wondering, due you allow ES in duels? If so then yes this army is nasty you can win just by dueling away. Gothmog and A nazgul = dead hero. :eyebrows:.

Anyway, i have to say I love orcs with DHWs. Yes they die quickly but blimey don't they take people with them. Teamed with almost any Nazgul makes them so much better.

The Black Guard is always worth a look. With high D7, berserk and high fight (especially on Hero ;)) teamed with a Nazgul and wings of terror, you have a unit that got hit your enemy hard on the first turn and cause havoc.

Shelob should also get a mention I think, her dueling ability and ambush are fantastic.

darkened sun
26-02-2010, 12:46
Hmm, it's a pretty big army, bigger than alot that I have seen. 3 max sized infantry units + extra. It has 198 models plus 6 epic heroes. If that's not comfortably big enough, then what is? If you have too many models you can't bring them to bear against the enemy army efficiently and they get in each other's way.

I like Shelob, but I don't have her. I have a Mumak though. Then again they can just be immobilized by spells, LOL.

I dunno about Epic Strike. Technically they should be allowed in duels (calling an ES will raise your FV for everything/every kind of use for that turn). But it's obviously so cheesy to use it as a purely defensive measure because I don't think that's how it was intended. At worst you call one if you get challenged, then the other does the same, so you both have F10 (but the guy who called it still gets +1 for calling). We need the FAQ.

I have not tried thw for the maxed out orc unit, but maybe I should try it out at least once. Thw are the best close combat weapons in the game, that is the most improved weapons since SBG. -1FV is nothing, while +1 to wound is massive. It is especially good on units with naturally high armour, i.e. Dwarf Warriors/Khazad Guard.

darkened sun
26-02-2010, 13:27
I would like to swap off the easterling warriors for a unit of black guard. But for now it just means buying even more models when I'm not properly using ones that I already have.

So, one way to protect orcs with thw is to use to -1S spell, Enfeeble. Which is a really good spell anyway.

I'm pretty happy with my trusty 1,500 pts list...

Gothmog
The Betrayer
Khamul
Kardush

9 Mordor Orcs + two handed weapons, captain
6 Morannon Orcs + shields, captain
2 Orc Archers
Mordor Troll Chieftain
Mordor Troll

6 Easterling Kataphrakts + captain

1,490 points

Reinholt
26-02-2010, 16:05
A few more thoughts...

First, epic strike in duels or not matters a lot. If you allow it, ringwraiths are so insanely good that you'd be a fool not to take several. Without it, they need to be played more carefully and remain good, but not broken to the point that they carry the whole army.

We play without it, so I tend to support more troops and shooting than I would if you could do it.

Second, if you take the castellans, they are a cleanup unit. Pin something with orcs, then annhiliate it with castellans.

Third, you need some shooting if the other guy has monsters or heavy cav. Specifically siege bows. Don't leave your barren, blasted wasteland without them.

Nu Fenix
26-02-2010, 16:35
Another impact of if ES can be used in a duel, is that it gets round Black Breath, which is currently the main weapon for a Ringwraith to duel. Granted, if ES is allowed and they don't have ES, then Fight 10 versus 1 with an extra +1 for calling a Duel is not going to end well...

darkened sun - Where do you place each of your Epics at the start of the game? I ask as I tr to roughly aim for 1:1 between formations with a command comapny and [Epic] Heroes. Whereas you have four formations and seven Heroes. Are the Captains there to balance the out fact your Ringwraiths only have 1 Might?
Kardush is the one I'm having trouble guessing where he goes, as I imagine Gothmog with the Morannon, Khamul with the Mordor Orcs and The Bretayer with the Kataphrakts even with him being in the second company. Or does he stand beside Khamul for a very painful and costly formation of Mordor Orcs?

Oh how I wish Black Guard were plastic, though I will try to proxy them soon and find out if I like them. On paper they seem amazing, as do the experiences I have read.

darkened sun
26-02-2010, 18:01
I know how you rule ES makes all the difference in the world. All I said was that if you read the rules literally ES counts for duels (it simply counts for everything, without exception, since it doesn't state otherwise);... but that many people have the house rule of it not counting in duels, in other words people have made a house rule that overrules the One Rulebook. But in a tournament that house rule might not be there (though maybe some tournaments would use it). I have so far played that ES works for duels... I haven't played against anybody who said otherwise. I think if you take into account really high-points games where you have Counsellors and Touched by Destiny characters, your heroes can get their might back so calling ES is less big of a deal for either side, especially if you call a duel and then having to call an ES in reply, costing 2 might (insane).

Kardush has the spell Dark Fury, which lets you re-roll 1s and 2s in combat. So he goes in a different unit than Khamul. The Betrayer will go with the thw Orcs since that is the best way to get the most deflected wounds from his 5+ thing. The Betrayer goes in the same unit, sometimes moving to the 'phrakts. Gothmog will be in either of the large orc units. In 2k the Dwimmerlaik and Tainted can go anywhere, depending on where their 12" radius reaches. Yeah, I try to spread my Epics out too. But they are more evenly spread in my Gondor army than Mordor. Mordor it's just 1 general plus a ton of magic users, which is crazy.

Thing is I don't neccesarily keep my Epics in the same unit all the time, for example if I'm doing an important charge with my cav I might move a hero or two to them for a turn. I have to take as much might as possible via captains because Evil armies have less might than Good armies in general.

I wonder if the low max. size for the Black Guard is any hindrance? Probably not, but it IS *slightly* small. But you can get large units elsewhere so BG aren't supposed to soak wounds like Mordor or Morannon Orcs.

I worry that Siege Bows might get shot/magicked and killed easily... But if any of you guys have any good stories of a unit of 3 Siege Bows staying alive and racking up alot of kills over a game, feel free to mention them.

Nu Fenix
05-04-2010, 18:01
Since I like the idea of keeping the assorted Tacticas going and having appropriate queries/advice within, I felt it would be better for me to post here then start a new one?

Now, after suffering from a 51 impulse buy for WOTR in GW today, I now have one Sauron the Necromancer. I have been debating getting one for a while, and like the idea of him, whilst not being as pricey as Sauron the Dark Lord.

However, has anyone ever used him? How have they found him? His closest comparison seems to be the Winged Nazgul, as they are both monsters and spellcasters. However, the utility of them seems different, with the Necromancer seeming more designed for standing behind a screen of his own army, moving out to blast spells and pop back, whereas the Winged Nazgul have the option to fly over the enemy, or even Swoop Attack them, whilst also getting more attacks for charging.
Being Mastery 5 with Darkness, Dismay, and also Ruin, who is only available on Kardush from Mordor, seems very useful indeed. Depending on his plan for the turn, either Epic Ruination or Epic Channeling seem nasty, to hopefully drain all the Might from opposing formations from repeated Will of Irons rolls. A dirty trick I am tempted is to use Gothmog's Overlord ability to pay for them, with the image of his soul slowly being drained by the Necromancer as he fuels his magic.

In response to darkened sun's previous post, now that I have started to use my Siege Bows and Blck Guard [as mentioned elsewhere], the small size of Black Guard isn't a painful negative. Due to their points cost, I wouldn't go much further than three, maybe four companies. As you said, their job isn't to soak wounds in general, which is why Morannon Orcs cost half the amount for the same Defence. Their smaller size makes it easier to fit where you want, with the option of being more likely to occupy defensive terrain, making them truely annoiing for the enemy.

Siege Bows have to be very careful, as I went for a hill in my deployment zone to grant me an elevated position. Unfortunately, my opponent used Haradrim with bows, rushed them forwards 24" thanks to Wings of Terror and ATD!, followed by a Heroic Shoot to thin down my numbers. I then fired back, which was a terrible idea since Khamul was inside, and within 12" of the Siege Bows, causing them to end up killing themselves. On a positive note, my opponent did state that if they had been alive from Turn 2 onwards, he would have been very scared of them and focused even more attention to them.
So, a part of me now expects them to die, but in doing so can act as bait to pull the enemy towards them, allowing you to get into a better position for a counter-attack.

darkened sun
07-04-2010, 13:38
I think the Necromancer is very, very good. He is quite expensive but he has alot of special abilities and is one of the best spellcasters in the game. I do not think Nazgul can be compared to him in likeness (although they are the closest things to him, yes), as the Necromancer is much magickier, but slower, and basically different. There is only one drawback to him which is that you really have to go out of your way to protect him (he will be a target) and not let him die to artillery, archery, or some spells or abilities (e.g. Khamul's). I think it should be possible to use his 16" move to keep him safe most of the time by placement.

The extra access of Ruin is one of the things that make him great. You have to go easy on the magic to be able to make use of his mastery 5 and not overdo it on the high focus spells, but cast alot of low focus spells first (obviously). He might mess up from time to time, but his epic channeling might be one of the best uses of his might, although you won't be able to do it too many times. I used to have the model, but sold quite a while ago now. I did not get to use him in WOTR, though I used him in SBG. So, taking him in a Mordor army it would mean taking less ringwraiths and not definitely not Kardush. But it'd be good to take 2 RWs or so, say the Necromancer, Khamul and the Betrayer in 2000 points (plus Gothmog as the general), that's 1 third of the army and 11 mastery levels

Yeah, I am sure the Black Guard should be fine off with their smallish unit size. They are tough and should annihilate most of what they get into combat with.

I've been thinking about taking two units of 9 Mordor Orcs with two handed weapons and putting Khamul in one and the Betrayer in the other. I only have 9-12 companies worth of Mordor Orcs at the moment, but it seems like a decent setup. Spreading the Betrayer and Khamul over two of units instead of just one together, which is excessive. The thw will kill alot and take alot of wounds, but they'll probably lose their combats every single time, though they'll take a heck of alot with them, especially combined with the +2 strength spell strength from corruption and RW special rules.

I think I'll consider converting some Siege Bows to use, though I doubt I would ever purchase the blisters of them.

Nu Fenix, what else did you buy with your 51 pounds? The Necromancer and what else?

Nu Fenix
07-04-2010, 19:06
I also picked up Black Guard Command, Kardush and a blister of Morannon Captains.
It was a combination of thinking that they may be handy in future lists, the Black Guard Command will likely have 2/3 of them used for the 1500 point tournament and I want to use actual models, and generally means I have those items if I want a bit more variety one the fly for a pickup game.

I worked out a 2k Mordor List which had Necromancer, four Ringwraiths and Kardush, whilst having five infantry formations each with Captains and two Siege Bows. Since magic has been doing well for me, I wondered how much further I could push it and still have a board presence ;) 18 Might and 19 Mastery seems nice in theory, it just needs the practice...

Whilst I think Khmaul will do very well in the Mordor Orcs, my concern with Betrayer is that whilst you will cause noticeable harm to the enemy [5+ with re-roll against D7], you will take alot of casualities back [S3 only needs 4+ to kill you back], which will cause your formation to thin down very quickly. Whilst I haven't tried it, Emmisary's idea of sticking him in a nine strong formation of Warg Riders with Tormented Steeds, to be S5 in combat and with their Throwing Weapons seems very nasty.
Don't forget to reflect the hits back on the enemy from Khamul when you use Strength from Corruption - It just adds insult to upcoming injury!

It is a shame that we seem to be the only ones representing Mordor at the moment, or at least discussing them in the tactica.

Sedge
07-04-2010, 19:26
It is a shame that we seem to be the only ones representing Mordor at the moment, or at least discussing them in the tactica.

I have used Mordor quite a lot now but I found them slightly too easy to win with. The betrayer in a formation of black guard hurtling along with wings of terror is enough to knock the wind out of most peoples armies. I wanted to get more people to playt rather than just crushing them so I changed to Rohan which I now love.

Mordor really do rock in a competitive way. Nazgul swap with magic with the best special rules in th egame. Heck they should cost about 175pts to balance them out a bit. The hordes of orcs (either type) look great as well which helps. Shelob is another useful adition to the army a great ambush unit.

Nu Fenix
07-04-2010, 19:51
I ended up turning away from my Fallen Realms because they were too popular locally [almost every Evil player used them, and most people play Evil] and I was too successful with them.

The Ringwraiths being so good is what seems to be the swinging point for Mordor. I might not use them in games to ease people in, using Gothmog, Kardush and the Necromancer, plus good old Troll Chieftains and Siege Bows.

Just because we can be so powerful, doesn't mean we are forced to. It just seems easier than other armies, which locally is Rohan - Our local Rohan player has the exact opposite success to you Sedge. However on the upside, he is learning more tactics and rules each time he plays me, whilst appreciating the fact I don't have pikes anymore ;)

Xelee
07-04-2010, 22:25
The Ringwraiths being so good is what seems to be the swinging point for Mordor. I might not use them in games to ease people in, using Gothmog, Kardush and the Necromancer, plus good old Troll Chieftains and Siege Bows.

Just because we can be so powerful, doesn't mean we are forced to. It just seems easier than other armies....
Good to see. Gothmog is good but everyone gets a good value leader, it's chucking in all the free abilities the cheaper Wraiths get that seems to take it too far.

Mordor is a very cool list with a lot of variety in there, so it's good to see some of the other stuff used on the tabletop. I really like the look of the black guards as a unit, very cool.

Nu Fenix
08-04-2010, 18:54
I know some have found the limited choice of Common Formations an issue with Mordor, when Fallen Realms dominates the game in terms of Common choices. Yet both often stick with at most three different Commons, sometimes two or even just one [Easterling Cohort and Morannon Orcs in my case].

But, to me they are like Skaven - You need lots of the same few basic things to act as the core of the army, whilst having a wide choice of more special things to create the variety.
An army with all Ambushers on a terrain heavy board backed up by Shelob will play completely differently to one running assorted Trolls backed up by Sauron.

A part of me wants to get more players locally playing Mordor, and then I shall rule over them like Sauron, my gaze dominating them ;)

Nu Fenix
10-04-2010, 15:35
Now, whilst battlehosts isn't out for a while yet, we now have more information about what is going to be within it.

Due to a combination of cockyness and devotion ot WOTR, my local GW staff let me have a good read of the book today. Whilst reading, I made several notes, including the entirety of the Mordor chapter of the book, which I have copied to Warseer here - http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4562704&postcount=76

So, what do my fellow agents of The Eye think of the battlehosts? What about the fates?

At first I saw Gothmog's Morannon Orcs and felt quite pleased that I can already use it if I wanted. The City Rats rule isn't going to do much for me at the moment since locally we only have trees. But Men turn up alot, either as Gondor, Rohan or Fallen Realms, meaning Hunters of Men should be handy for me [though I would rather win the fight ;)]. Kill All in Your Path seems to be the dominant ability however, which seems best when there is charging cavalry or a monster also involved in the fight, to increase chances of winning.
But then I realised a major downside - I would no longer have any Common formations in my army, making it illegal and also preventing me from taking any Rares.

For Fates, the big one mechanically is Doom and Despair, which when combined with charging Wargs or a large block of Black Guard could make many units in trouble, or just be used as a form of revenge against Elves and dropping their Fight, letting them see how they like it for a change.
But style wise, it has to be the Eye of Sauron. I wish it alos lowered the Courage of Good by 1 as well, but then it would probably just sit in the middle of a Good army all game and make things more troublesome for them, which would be a steal for 50 points.

ThrowN
10-04-2010, 20:16
I think the Gorgoroth Orcs are quite interesting for the following reasons:
- Equipement: Right now, Morannons with shields are better than orcs with shields. A lot. Now you get shields vs ranged attacks and still have those 2-handed weapons in CC (right now, nearly the only reason to take normal orcs instead of Morannons)
- Cost: 9 companies of orcs, with 1 option of your choice, captain and taskmaster vs 12 companies with all options and the same command. For only 75 points more. 0 if you take into account the 3 additional equiped companies you get...

So if you alway wanted to field a formation of 9x orcs with 2-handed weapons (like me) a minimal sized Gorgoroth horde might be the way to go!


For Fates, the big one mechanically is Doom and Despair, which when combined with charging Wargs or a large block of Black Guard could make many units in trouble, or just be used as a form of revenge against Elves and dropping their Fight, letting them see how they like it for a change.
I see that one too.
But overall, "Enamoured by Evil Knowledge" seems to really give you something you'll never get otherways!

Nu Fenix
10-04-2010, 20:45
I love the idea of Gandalf casting Blinding Light on on of his own formations thanks to Enamoured by Evil Knowledge - You know when you pull that off, it will help swing the battle.

I just did another mail order, preparing to expand my Mordor to accommodate Battlehosts. Primarily I want to expand what I own for the Fortress of Bara-dur, however since I would need Mordor Orcs for it, I decided to make the most of it with two formations of nine, which means I also have 18 if I ever want to use the Gorgoroth instead ;)

darkened sun
10-04-2010, 23:04
None of the fates stand out except for Doom and Despair which looks useful. Good has a the identical fortune in the WOTR book. Seems quite lacking in imagination when good and evil have the same fortunes/fates basically, that's one thing that I don't like as many of them are both so similar anyway. For good it's best for elves (who all cause terror).

Gorgoroth Orc Horde - looks like a very good battlehost, one of the best. Then again it is a huge unit, twice as big as a max-sized Orc unit which is already the biggest in the game. But unit size 12 should be sufficient (almost 100 models in one unit!). 18C is 144 orcs big......

The Fortress of Barad-dur - quite a good one as it involves a mixture of units which you would already be taking for a Mordor army. Only thing is make sure the Mouth of Sauron doesn't get killed.

The Black Legion of Mordor - lots of Morannon Orcs and Trolls... more than I've seen anyone take. Re-rolls on the charge seems great, just depends whether you have 3+ Morannons and 3+ Trolls already. Commanding Below seems useful, similar with the MTC rerolling 1s.

Gothmog's Morannon Orcs - doesn't seem that great, but at least it's cheap. The heroic fight rule would be good though.

Mordor Siege Lords - a powerful, alternative use of Trolls... This one seems good, especially for use in conjunction with the catapults shooting at large formations. Not sure how I feel about hanging Trolls back. Maybe you could use them in CC later when the battle lines get closer.

The Hunters of Cirith Ungol - nothing special, only 25 pts.

Morgul Rat Warband - this one is very good. It basically means having a large portion of your army ambushing.

The Knights of Morgul - seems ok.


The Nazgul - reason to take Nazgul! But you'd need alot! Hah... I only have 1 (metal). Tougher, stronger terror, plus it looks like you can swoop units to death with them.

Those were just some initial impressions. It's hard to tell how good these formations are without knowing what the rest of the armies ones are like. But there are some good battlehosts, especially the ones for units that you would already be taking, ones that you don't need to buy a ton of new stuff for.

Paraelix
20-04-2010, 21:12
Great write-up Emissary! I hadn't noticed that Shelob was an ambusher, nor had I realized that Prowler worked on shooting attacks!

I think I'm getting more excited about my warg unit with bows - which I'm now definitely going to lead with the Betrayer.

I was in a small tourney this past weekend. I did quite well and mostly due to my wraiths. My unit huge orc block with Khamul used Wings of Terror and Strength from corruption quite a bit. I love casting strength from corruption when I'm close to the enemy and transferring a hit or two onto them as well. But the wings can let you get off first turn charges (task master is quite handy for a more reliable at-the-double).

Another thought is also throwing Tortured Steeds onto those boys, bumping them to S5 (with rerolls from Betrayer) :D

Nu Fenix
20-04-2010, 21:38
Warg Riders
Cheap cav that have one underrated bonus: They can be in formations up to 9 companies. This size can let them take a lot of casualties and keep going, plus can charge multiple parts of a battleline at once. In addition they have throwing weapons so can shoot them then still charge adding to their attacks as long as they don't at the double. Their D5 is average, but can't stand up to a ton of firepower, but again you can have 9 of them. I'm not sold on bows on them as you don't get many attacks and can't charge after firing them. The nastiest combination I've seen has been 9 stands of warg riders with shields, the betrayer and the +1S feat. At this point you get a lot of S5 attacks that all get to reroll misses (both for the throwing weapons and melee attacks), strikes before infantry and has the ability to get an earth shattering charge.

Unfortunately Paraelix, Emissary actually suggested that on page 1 of this very thread, on 29-05-2009, which I have underlined for clarity. Sorry.

ForgottenLore
20-04-2010, 23:50
Ah, but would it be advantageous to put tortured steeds AND sigil of fallen kings on them in big games for S6 attacks (with reroll) at the cost of taking casualties if you loose combat. (of course resilience 2 might mitigate the casualties some)

Nu Fenix
21-04-2010, 15:43
Generally, no - Even numbered Strength would only give you a bonus against Even numbered Defence. There is no difference when rolling To Hit against Defence 7 with Strength 5 or 6.

Since a majority of formations use an Odd numbered Defence, I would say no. Against Elves where they have a more noticeable range of Even numbered Defence, then perhaps.

ForgottenLore
21-04-2010, 17:30
OK, then what about Giant Spiders, S7, prowlers and poisonous? If you get a flank charge they won't have their shields so D5, hitting on a 3+, prowlers makes it a 2+, poison lets you reroll the "1"s so virtually all your attacks for the entire formation should hit, yes?

I mean, there are probably lots of fates I would rather buy first, or apply these to other formations, so I don't expect I would ever use something like this, I'm just curious if it would be effective or too fragile to be worth it.

Nu Fenix
21-04-2010, 18:48
The risk you take with such a combination is the points invested, and that you will need an Epic Hero to join the formation to get the most out of them. Otherwise they will find it hard getting into the flank/rear without ATD!, and there will be numerous spells that will stop them, including the extremely powerful [and my favourite spell] Pall of Night.

Afterall, since they are Persistent effects, you announce them at the start of game, meaning you can't suprise your opponent at what they will do. I would try to charge you first and hope you lose combat [won't be hard since you are D3].

The combination might be viable in the Beasts of the Wild battlehost, as they could be protected by Druzhag, and he can give them Spirit Grasp instead, which then become much dirtier ;)

For the same points, what about Morgul Knights? They wouldn't get the benefit of poison, however the lances would balance out Prowler and with Terror and D7 they have a much better chance at surviving combat. They also have the option for a banner and Captain. Unfortunately, taking all of that on a maxed out formation will be 325 points for a tiny four companies.

Reinholt
21-04-2010, 19:40
On a Mordor note...

In the newest white dwarf, there is an updated entry for the Morgul Knights (to represent their ability to take hornblowers).

Also, in this new entry, it states that Mordor may take Black Numenoreans and Morgul Knights as rare formations (without having to take them as allies in the fallen realms).

Similarly, if you take the Dark Marshal, they become common.

Enjoy.

Xelee
21-04-2010, 20:41
Also, in this new entry, it states that Mordor may take Black Numenoreans and Morgul Knights as rare formations (without having to take them as allies in the fallen realms).
Enjoy.

Heh, they realised making the Mordor players choose between them and Arbalesters was not a smart idea? :)

In seriousness though, it's good to see them updating unit entries to tweak around the edges. I think a better approach to something like this would be to restrict allies to commons (which is in the game's, not the model seller's interest) and then ensure all lists have access to the rares they should have. They have the benifit of the game being out a while now to work through and ensure they include all the appropriate units as options.

dtjunkie19
21-04-2010, 22:30
On a Mordor note...

In the newest white dwarf, there is an updated entry for the Morgul Knights (to represent their ability to take hornblowers).

Also, in this new entry, it states that Mordor may take Black Numenoreans and Morgul Knights as rare formations (without having to take them as allies in the fallen realms).

Similarly, if you take the Dark Marshal, they become common.

Enjoy.

While in the process screwing over all Fallen Realms players by making the morgul knight battlehost only in the mordor list. So now i cant take a morgul knight battlehost formation with my fallen realms. :mad:

Trains_Get_Robbed
22-04-2010, 03:46
Currently I'm in the balance of Mordor and Fallen Relams and with the introduction of these rules and the "black guard" models, Mordor look and sound really awesome! I could always ally both forces though in SBG games right?. Are there any advantages of allying in with a force in WoTR with Mordor? (Side Note)* A troll chieftan seems to do the same purpse as a Mumak for less points, is this true?

ForgottenLore
22-04-2010, 04:04
Well, a mumak should be A LOT harder to kill, has more shooting attacks at better range and can get a lot more attacks in melee than a troll (usually), plus it has other special rules to play with like trampling.

Downside is that it will probably stampede at some point in the game and may hit your own formations or just manage to kill itself.

It concerns me though that they are updating things in the magazine. Other games have done that and it can VERY easily get out of control and make it impossible to have up to date rules.

Nu Fenix
22-04-2010, 15:30
I love my Troll Chieftain, and my opponents have began to fear him.

I see him as being one part unit-hitter, and one part-dueling machine. Whilst he does attract some attention, I try to either hide them behind other formations when possible [which the Mumak can't do] or ensure that there are too many options for what they want to shoot.

I wondered why they made the Knights of Morgul battlehost for Mordor, however now they are amending the formations to be part of Mordor as well, then I don't mind.

Having both Mordor and Fallen Realms, whilst enjoying my Mordor more, means this rules tweak is a positive addition for myself.

gork or maybe mork
26-04-2010, 18:59
I too like the troll chieftan, but since my gaming group allow epic strike with duels (competitive beeps) he tended to die rather quickly. Since then, I've had more success using a stone giant. Granted it takes up ally points and cant at the double, but he works really well flanking units that try to kill the morannon orcs (never lost them yet. go gothmog).

On a different note, what do people think of siege bows? I'm trying to decide between them and arbalesters. they're twice as much as the arbalesters, but are the best way i've found of killing my groups new fotm - 4co of khazad guards with aragorn, leg-o-lamb and gimli in the same unit (short of running towards them with khamul with a huge target painted on his chest).

Nu Fenix
26-04-2010, 19:12
With Epic Strike he is only losing by two, which wouldn't be very useful since there are better, squishier targets they could be beating up on?

I use Siege Bows, and very proud of them. Generally one out of three misses, but they thin down the enemy which is all well and good. Just make sure you keep them protected, as the lack the chance to run away unlike the Arbalesters. Try them with the Betrayer and see how much attention they gather ;)

I wish we had our own version of Merry/Pippin, as I would sacrifice them in a heartbeat to crank up the number of hits against the enemy. It is my plan to do that with some Gondor Trebuchets, aiming for a 7+ on the Artillery table!

As for that FOTM - I would try and defeat them with control, trying to burn out their Might as fast as possible through spells and Dwimmerlaik. Alternatively, use Shades and reduce the number of attacks they get, whilst putting them off calling duels since they will only be ahead by one for calling it. That way any dirty tricks they wish to use can be lessened thanks to our characters, such as Gothmog and various Ringwraiths.

Khamul
28-04-2010, 00:05
Siege Bows are EXCELLENT against Mumaks. I used one and got about 4 hits a turn. They're great for their points.

Nu Fenix
28-04-2010, 18:21
Even with the -1 on the chart to hit a Mumak due to it being a single formation?

I could do with some of your luck ;)

Khamul
30-04-2010, 02:15
Well,the rest of the battle went pretty rottenly for me :(.

malisteen
05-05-2010, 14:02
I'm in the process of collecting a Minas Morgul themed army, and the Morgul Rat Battlehost has caught my eye. Having a bunch of ambushing orcs sounds potentially pretty cool.

Does anybody have any thoughts or advice on how to get the most out of it? Should the required orc formations be smaller (3 to 4 companies), to try and get the most use out of the ambush rule, or larger (8 to 9 companies), because they're, well, orcs? What equipment should they carry?

Mars
08-05-2010, 07:12
Shagrat and the Tower Guard:

Anyone use these?
Are they easy to hide from shooting?
Are Orcs with 2HW that much better? For example against WoMT, High Elves, Ents...
What if you don't use Nazgul?
How does Shagrat do in duels? Is he worth it over regular Captains?
Anyone succesfully use his special rule?

malisteen
08-05-2010, 11:37
I think a lot of the battlehosts discussion is going to hinge on whether 'other models may not be part of the battlehost' means 'other epic heroes cannot join formations that are part of a battlehost'.

I wasn't too impressed with the tower guard at first glance, but I'm not exactly great at evaluating things without playing them, so I think I'll wait for someone else to comment.

Mars
09-05-2010, 07:14
I did an Orc vs Uruk-Hai 2hw comparison

in the end, I think the lower price of the Orcs gives them the advantage: D3 vs D4 is too small a difference; F3 vs F4 matters little; C3 vs C4 (Captains) does make a difference, but most of the time they'll be accompanied by a Nazgul (or have the Dark Marshal nearby)

still, the difference is neglectable in many situations, and the Uruk-Hai do have the advantage when on their own, and in Duels. plus, Shagrat greatly increases the value of a unit, and I just have a good idea for conversions ;)

Nu Fenix
09-05-2010, 11:34
What idea is it you have for conversions Mars?

Also, I have been thinking about how to build my Mordor army in a controlling theme - Dictating how and when events happen on the battlefield, when and how much Might they use, and so forth.
Now, these are what I see helping to do that:
* Spells of Darkness and Dismay - Being able to either lower certain stats of the enemy [Courage primarily, followed by Strength and Shoot], prevent them moving/shooting/charging [Transfix and Pall of Night], strip Might from enemy Heroes [Black Dart], or cause Terror to either reduce the chances of being charged or reduce the enemy to Fight 0 [Terrifying Aura, possibly Wings of Terror].
* Ringwraiths - Primarily the Tainted and Dwimmerlaik, due to their abilities. They also supply me with the best value access to Spells of Darkness and Dismay.
* Fates - Faltering Nerve, There Will be no Dawn, Curse of Morgoth and Tokens of Terror are the main ones that stand out to me. To a lesser extent, Watcher in the Shadows, Infestation, Evil Reputation and Balefire Arrows.
* Shades - Now I know they are not from Mordor, however having an aura that reduces Fight to 2 when in range can help mitigate the fact that many armies and their Epic Heroes/Legendary Formations will have a better Fight then I do. Whilst I will be just as bad as they are, I will have prepared for it in advance. I know that Heroic Duels will be less likely to be called, letting my Heroes stay alive for longer.
* Outside help - There are two Epic Heroes that don't belong to Mordor who I feel will help reinforce the controlling element, and unsuprisingly they are both spellcasters. They are Saruman and Druzhag. Expanding magic to include Spells of Command and Wilderness [Ruin is a bonus but available due to Kardush/Sauron], which grants me several more controlling spells. I also get the added benefit of Voice of Saruman to reduce the chances that I get charged, and Summon Beasts if I need a quick blast of reinforcements.

Now, at first glance it does appear that this could be done by Angmar as well as Mordor. However, I feel that the options available with Mordor are greater. I have access to Morannon Orcs for acting as an anvil. I can use Trolls if I need some heavy hitters. I have artillery for long-range shooting support to thin the enemy before I get to them, or decrease the amount of attacks/shots back towards me.

Is there anything that could be used in a Mordor army to help control the battlefield that I am not thinking of?
And if anyone asks, yes I used to enjoy playing Black/Blue ;)

WD40
10-05-2010, 20:15
What about a gollum/khamul combo? Khamul reflects hits, and gollum does 1 more hit for each hit you do. And the FAQ says you can move gollum to different units. I don't know if thats your definition of control, but i think gollum/grima sorta suit the theme.

What about mordor siege bows + balfefire arrows. The bow is bound to get a casualty, expecially if you give it a fate or something that lets you reroll something.

Also with the shade theme, ghostly legion reduces str to 1 i think if you fail a courage test when in combat with them.

I was wondering if you can screen your troops with spider broodling swarms. They get D10 against magic/shooting, and maybe you could put them in front of your troops that need protecting to block LOS.

Also, as an alternative to saruman, you could get a dragon with the spells of ruin. He also has a nifty breath attack, and D8.

Another thing to try to go for is have as many terror causing units as possible.
---------
This isn't really related to the control theme, but i was wondering if theres any point on using morannon orcs, as an ally to easterlings. Easterling pikemen are already the anvil pretty much, so what use is there for morannon orcs. I'm back on the idea that i want to do fallen realms, but as an exansion do a black gate theme (morannon orcs, gothmog, mouth of sauron, dark marshal, morgul knights... black numenorians are expensive, but yeah).

Mars
11-05-2010, 05:28
for troop screening: Morgul Stalkers with their Elven cloaks

still, I don't believe the problem is protecting your front line troops, but rather the fragile units standing behind them, which can only be shot at by units on a hill anyway, but which you cannot protect

unless you have serious shooting power of your own to take out said hill-mounted firepower, like a bolt thrower or two or three

unless they're Wood Elves with cloaks, than you'll just have to sneak that hill off the table. Good has moving trees, why can Evil have moving hills?

and it seems magic uses different LoS rules than shooting: for shooting placing a unit in front will make them invisible, for magic the target just has to be "visible". did they FAQ this? time for the rules forum

Mars
03-08-2010, 08:00
Some observations from my last game:

- Orcs with bows are actually half decent. Their low cost makes them a bargain, yet they put out almost as many shots as any archer unit double the cost. They pay for this in Defence and Courage, but because they are "just" Orcs, many opponents will ignore them in favor of more dangerous units. Yet the sheer volume of shots they can put out is not to be ignored, especially when deployed on a hill and supporting combat units, they become a good force multiplier.

- Siege bows are brilliant. I've had two of these duel a formation of Dwarf Balista's to death, and than happily blast away Knights, Vault Wardens, Khazad Guard etc. Evil magic really helps here, reducing enemy shooting power if you can get close enough. I do find putting them on a hill makes them a target for massed bow fire, so deploying them on ground level and sniping between your lines might be worth looking into.

- Warg Riders suck. They're not bad, but they won't penetrate D7 armour and get kicked around themselves. I imagine their low cost and speed is useful for flanking purposes, but I figure Morgul Knights are way better for the point cost.

- Castellans of Dol Guldur are great. I expected these to be fragile and expensive, but if screened well they really add punch to my line. I am looking for tactics to boost their hitting power, such as F5 from the Dark Marshal, courage reducing spells, and Shade.

ForgottenLore
03-08-2010, 08:11
If you think wargs with riders suck, don't play misty mountains. Exactly the same stats but without the bows for the same point cost.

On the other hand, I like my wargs. Your right, you use them for flanking. They can get around the outside edge of the board and start threatening the rear arcs of things mid game quite nicely. Can't comment though whether something else would be better.

Mars
20-09-2010, 14:09
some more observations from my last game (Mordor + Angmar vs Isengard + Easterlings):

- Siege Bows: these killed one Troll and a unit of Archers. Monster units with some luck can take a decent amount of shots. They are most useful against tough infantry and cavalry units, such as Khazad Guard and Swan Knights.

- Orcs with bows: cheap and good for sniping at fragile but expensive units, like Uruk-Hai Berzerkers. They'll die fast to any enemy shooting, but most opponents won't bother. I've yet to try them as flank guards/speed bumps, but talk about fodder!

- Morannon Orcs: with shields these are your dirt-cheap bread and butter, more points-effective than Uruk-Hai and Easterlings in my eyes. Their greatest weakness is their lack of courage, so some Epic leadership is needed.

- Black Guard of Barad-Dur: absurdly hard with their newly FAQed S5, I had 2 companies rip through a unit of Uruk-Hai in two charges. Still their D7 is relatively low, so they need to be adequately supported; I used Trolls for this, their Terror, survivability and small base makes them great supporters :D.

- Morgul Knights: another superb assault unit. I had these guys charge two units of Easterlings in the front while my Ghostly Riders took the enemy flank with their incredible speed and mobility. Two turns and a heroic fight later and I had annihilated both units and the Kataphrakts that were trying to counter-charge, with hardly any losses of my own, lovely stuff!