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Unicorn
24-04-2009, 12:10
The death star consiting of 25+ shades with GW, full command and all the charekters with magic resistence, and the rest of the works.

Not to mentione the rest of the army containing a hydra, repeter boltthrowers, more crosbowbolts, some black guard, harpies and outriders?

I am playing DoC and cant think of many good reliable ways to take that unit out when its protected by the rest of the army?

I would be very glad for all the help I could get.

Any suggestions?

Nicha11
24-04-2009, 12:14
Dude.... DOC have numerous counters for this.

Blood Thirster springs to mind.
Flamers?
Flesh hound's
Hell even seekers of slaanesh could catch and hold him up for long enough.

Lord Khabal
24-04-2009, 12:29
Yep, the thirster can do it, so can flamers!

Unicorn
24-04-2009, 12:34
The flamers will be shoot to death with 70+ bolts, the thirster might make it into combat and hold them upp but his army can pump out 110+ bolt a turn thats strength 3 + twelve strengt 4 bolts or the ones that cause d3 wounds. And if I first reach him his lord is there to go toe to toe.

its not as much as holding them upp as manage to kill them or lose the rest of my army getting to them. If my thirst gets there he need support.

I dont own any seekers unfortunatly :( but might try to proxy them along a thirster.

More suggestiens would be appreciated :)

EvC
24-04-2009, 12:53
Nice unit of Furies or three screening the tough stuff of your army. 70 shots is nasty but they'll only hit your Furies on 6s, meaning they might not even be able to take down one unit a turn! Also be sure to make use of tactical wheeling and terrain and the like. Place a wall a third of the way into the battlefield, and fly your Bloodthirster behind it turn one- shots at him will be at -2, so 6s to hit again, even when he charges from there! But the Dark Elves are also strong in combat too sadly, you'll have to hope that the BT can out-kill anything in there.

Or, much much much MUCH easier... Siren Song. Turn 1 dash Herald out, order them to charge you, be sure to have units lined up for the charge after the Dark Elves overrun and yeah they are screwed 100%.

W0lf
24-04-2009, 13:00
Pretty much what EVC said. Siren song + counter charge = GG.

Maybe Post the list.. 25 shades + full charaters is quite expensive, he wont have much else.

Witchblade
24-04-2009, 13:08
I don't think a Thirster will surivive even a single round of combat against that unit. He'll take ~50 bolts and then ASF from multiple characters. If he lives, he'll lose combat very badly.

Unicorn
24-04-2009, 13:11
Ofcourse siren song *Face Palm* I am only afraid that he is going to se it coming, the player that use this army is very good and if I where him I would move forward to leave room behind me and flee when the song have been used (tournaments only gives permisson for 1 song here, to cheddar. And we try to make the armies we use after tournament standards, witch only means max 3 flying units including chareckters) but its my best bet I whould think, screened by furies. Thanks EvC! :)

His list in mostly the units I mentioned with the uber unit beeing 36 shades with Great Weapons, 4 characters, Lord and 3 masters 1 BSB to give the Unit: Always strike first, Immune to psychology, magic resistance 3 and all my spells within 12" all doubles are miscast. I has not used a scroll caddy yeat but that will make the list better I think but not shure

in addition 2 both throwers, 2 units of harpies, 1 hydra, 2 xbow units, black guard 10 strong, 2 outrider units with xbows and spears. Thats the army

But the trick with furies might work, just have to try and see how it goes, only own 10 of them but still, might have to buy more, seems like I am going to need them

Whitesox
24-04-2009, 21:10
use vamps....

mass IoN spamming works wonders, spamm zombies with Spectre de Noitor (not sure of name but gives D3 +9 zombies per raise dead) make it one big conga line and raise it up with lots and lots of IoN... make the unit so wide he cant move around the sides of him and as long as you raise 25 plus a turn he wil struggle to kill them all :) which is three successfull casts (on 10+ power dice it is easy) make sure you only use one dice at a time to ignore the ring

Whitesox
24-04-2009, 21:16
but for DoC siren song is best, or big big unit of regenerating plaguebearers rambling towards them (long range the unit will kill 4 plagure bearers a turn, short range they will kill 6) so make sure the unit is massive to begin with

coalescence
24-04-2009, 21:18
Yeah nice idea! Start a whole new army just to beat one opponent. I would do that.......

vinny t
24-04-2009, 21:22
No need to be sarcastic, people are only trying to help.

You play DoC and are complaining about DE?

Siren Song, GUCO with all the saves, great wall of Nurgle even, Flamers, Keeper would hurt them, Masque would be great, you are not hurting for options with DoC.

Shamfrit
24-04-2009, 21:33
I am bemused.

2XLvl.2's with Master of Sorcery.

Spam Howler Wind.

What 70 bolts where you talking about?

coalescence
24-04-2009, 21:44
No need to be sarcastic, people are only trying to help.

Sorry, but I wouldn't call a whole post talking about any other army than DOC 'help' ;)

On a more serious note. Plaguebearers with a herald? Or is that DE unit really THAT hardcore? (Never played against dark elves, yet)

moose
24-04-2009, 22:00
All you need is one keeper of secrets to charge/siren song, and Ld bomb it (masque/LdBSB).
Hopefully if they pass the terror test, they won't be able to attack.
Probably wouldn't get phantasmagoria off but that would be extra helpful!

Oh, or move within 20" on turn one, and force it to flee making it out of action basically for 1/2 turns. Not quite fair but ya know, neithers a deathstar.


Moose.

whiskeytango
24-04-2009, 22:09
terror bombing wont work if he's equipped with the usual deathstar set up, because one of the masters will have the ItP talisman.

Slot
24-04-2009, 22:14
How about combining a charge with seekers with siren standard and some flesh hounds, they won't get their stand and shoot cos of the standard. screen them with furies till they get there

fubukii
24-04-2009, 22:20
a thrister wont work vs the unit, im sure theres a lovely pendant lord in there, along with a asf banner a ring of hotek and at least mr3, and probably imune to pysc.

Now some things that will work, charge multiple heroes into the unit, how i best this beast was.

thrister
Khorne herald bsb (i normally do unholy victory or sundering)
some hounds
2 units of furies
2 units of flamers (to hopefully whittle down the unit a bit before you attack)

Use the furies to get close to the shades, the other to block the hounds.
oonce the furies are close enough to charge without allowing a stand and shoot do so. also charge in the thrister and the khorne herald. sadly the furies will get mangled, giving him +7 cr for kills/bsb/outnumber the thrister will kill about 6-7, if your lucky you can set up a good flank or rear charge because the unit will have to rank up to our first charger. Hope your thrister doesnt get wounded. now you will have your khorne herald bsb who may wound the enemy pendant lord, the thrister should kill 6 shades.

Now that leaves us with his 7-8
your 6 wounds +1 bsb +d3 for unholy, you may do a wound vs the pendant lord so on average 8-10. HE will probably hold, then next turn its just the challenge and the thrister thats when you will win the fight.

charging the unit with regular units is bad, because the unit of asf shades will maul you. along with all the chars. (13 str 6 hatred attacks plus all the str 5 shades also with hatred)
Keeper with siren song could work maybe, if it can get through the pendant lord.

non targetting spells work great to, such as howler wind, comet, gift of chaos etc.

large units of plague bearers with regen do the trick, aided by unseen lurker :)

HellRaid
25-04-2009, 01:45
I am bemused.

2XLvl.2's with Master of Sorcery.

Spam Howler Wind.

What 70 bolts where you talking about?

YES! You get a cookie.

Howler Wind is the way to go. Immunity to low strength missiles? Yes please.

sulla
25-04-2009, 02:37
I'd go a keeper with siren song and challenge with him... You stand a very good chance of winning the game on turn one or two.

Ld bomb may work too unless they have immune to psych.

whiskeytango
25-04-2009, 03:50
@fubukii: that would really only work if the lord doesnt challenge the thrister before the other daemons get there, which would be really stupid to not do i think. If he does, assuming the lord has regen and the pendant, then the BT probably isnt going to kill him, and will probably get mangled by CR.

You would have to make sure your guys get into combat at the same time. If not, i definitely dont see the BT lastly 2 rounds of combat all by his onesies.

Kalist
25-04-2009, 07:54
If you really want to see this army go down just whip out a dwarven gunline. 2 organ guns, 4 bolt throwers, runes of penetrating/flaming/skewering, cannons...should tear him a new one.

fubukii
25-04-2009, 07:55
i have no idea what you are trying to say, you do a combo charge all at the same time, not in waves. Yes the thrister isnt gonna kill the lord, i said he wouldnt, hence you will need 2 heroes in the combat to not get your thrister sucked into a challenge with mr unkillable. Now this is where the khorne herald comes in handy, he will have a 3+ save vs the lord, and a 5+ ward, has hatred and will wound him on 2+ causing him to take a bunch of saves. as for cr thats why you send your khorne herald bsb and use your flying thrister to smack into the flank. now with KILLs, bsb flank, and +d3 cr you should win the fight. even if you somehow lose the fight instability with a bsb is great on ld9.

i never mentioned a solo charge, actually fighting this unit 1v1 is suicide,period

im not sure what bolt throwers do to skirmishing units, but the organ guns would work. you could be even more effective and take thorek and kill the unit by turn 2-3

Unicorn
25-04-2009, 11:08
Thanks for all the replies guys!! :)

I own all the models mentioned that might work against the death star. I hadn’t thought of howlers wind so special thanks to Shamfrit The Narroq for mentioning it first in this thread :)

In my current 2000 point list that I am testing I am not using a thirster, but it seems I will have to try and get one in. Right now I am using 4 heralds but a thirster or a keeper seems like better option at the moment considering what you all have been telling me
So, how about this list as a possible all comers tourney list, and one that can take on the DE deathstar.

Thirster with armor, fury, axe
Khorne herald, bsb, jugger
Tzeentsh herald, “Scroll” and master of sorcery
Herald of Slanesh, steed, siren song

10 Deamonets, champ,
11 Bloodletters, standard and champ
10 Horrors

5 Flesh hounds
5 Flesh hounds

7 Furies
7 Furies
7 Furies

Any comments? To save points and maybe get more troops I think it might be better to change the thirster into a keeper so that the keeper can get siren song and possible magic so that I might not need the herald of tzeench and slanesh.

Any help is greatly appreciated

And thanks again for all the replies, they help a lot 

fubukii
25-04-2009, 11:45
a good tactic you can do is put the slannesh herald and the thrister in btb contact then call the siren causing him to charge both units. when he challenges with mr unkillable lord, accept with your herald. proceed to pwn all the other heroes in the unit with thrister.

Unicorn
25-04-2009, 11:47
a good tactic you can do is put the slannesh herald and the thrister in btb contact then call the siren causing him to charge both units. when he challenges with mr unkillable lord, accept with your herald. proceed to pwn all the other heroes in the unit with thrister.

That will hopefully work wonders :) and if the herald is in a unit the deamonets gets always strike first and can hopefully get some kills in, or is that just giving away free kills to the deathstar?

Shamfrit
25-04-2009, 14:03
No worries Unicorn, it's exactly what I use to stop it - because after all, they're reduce to a single STR5 attack each on an unarmoured body.

Unicorn
25-04-2009, 15:00
thats what I am going to try :)

thanks for all the feedback

Havock
25-04-2009, 18:25
Ask the guy playing it if he actually owns an army. And a brain capable of grasping the concept of tactics.

whiskeytango
25-04-2009, 19:19
@fubukii: my bad, for some reason i read it as though you were suggesting seperate turn charges.

Makaber
25-04-2009, 22:02
I'd just like to add that the Death Star list has some more general exploitable weaknesses:

First of all, once it's locked in combat it can't stand and shoot, and chargers are moved in the order you declared them, so charge with something you can afford to lose first, then the important stuff after that.

Secondly, it's relativly easy to flank, because it's a skirmisher unit. Since it ranks up against the first unit to charge into it, it shouldn't be that hard to dictate where its flank is going to be.

sulla
25-04-2009, 22:30
I'd just like to add that the Death Star list has some more general exploitable weaknesses:

First of all, once it's locked in combat it can't stand and shoot, and chargers are moved in the order you declared them, so charge with something you can afford to lose first, then the important stuff after that.

This is daemons we're talking about. Just by charging with a unit of slaaneshi steeds with the siren std, they can't shoot anyway. Or flee.

Or don't bother charging at all. Run a keeper or a slaaneshi herald right up to them and use siren to force them to charge or flee. If they are immune to psych (using the pearl, for example), they must charge.

Shooting is the least of your worries.

Makaber
25-04-2009, 23:06
This is daemons we're talking about. Just by charging with a unit of slaaneshi steeds with the siren std, they can't shoot anyway. Or flee.

Or don't bother charging at all. Run a keeper or a slaaneshi herald right up to them and use siren to force them to charge or flee. If they are immune to psych (using the pearl, for example), they must charge.

Shooting is the least of your worries.

That's why I said "general exploitable weaknesses". Because I don't know enough about Daemons to advice on them spesifically.

Unicorn
26-04-2009, 09:00
sadly I dont own any slaaneshi steeds at the moment, but I might buy some in the future, but thanks for the tip :) The banner works on normal deamonets also, they just dont have the same move as the steads but they can be screened.

Makaber, do you mean that I should charge with something I can lose in one turn, and in the next turn charge with the rest? I am only asking since I dont know what I can charge inn that stands a chance of standing against that unit and at the same time be expendable. And if I charge with many units in the same turn they get stand and shoot and a unit they chose since all units that decleare a charge against the same unit move at the same time if I dont remember wrong

EvC
27-04-2009, 14:08
Howler Wind is not a good idea thanks to three little words... "remains in play". If you take two Sorcery Heralds and cast it twice a turn then you might have a chance of it lasting until his shooting phase, but if not then it'll probably be dispelled.

But it's not unbeatable, don't worry. I have only played against it once, the original 45-man Shade Deathstar, and almost beat it with Ogres, only losing because after I broke the unit, he outran BOTH of my pursuing units. In a parallel universe where the dice roll fair, the creator of that list is feeling very stupid after losing to Ogres.