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Sarah S
24-04-2009, 18:09
War of the Ring, because of the Might point system, is lacking the GW standard "1's always fail" nonsense.

This means that it is possible to generate situations where rolls will automatically succeed.

For example, putting Gil-Galad, Aragorn and Elendil in the same company means that every attack the company has will automatically hit their targets, because even if you need 6/6, each roll gets +6, so the lowest you could achieve on either of the rolls would be a 7.

Throw Gimli or Dain in for a Rampage that is guaranteed to destroy every formation they fight.

Jorgen_CAB
24-04-2009, 18:16
I know, that is mean... though a bit pricey and munchkin type of formation though... :)

Though, would be fun to flank charge that unit with a formation of Rohan Royal Knights with Theoden and Gandalf with Blinding Light... formation destroyed in turn one... ;)

Why they would do that is another story...

xxRavenxx
24-04-2009, 20:25
I know that 2H weapons, dain (I think?) and legolas is used quite regularly to that end.

Epic rage, epic rampage + legolas's speed boost = strike first, no survivors.

2 might to kill a huge unit is fairly meaty. I imagine chucking in an aragorn or similar to not require the rage would be nice.

Erethor
24-04-2009, 22:20
...For example, putting Gil-Galad, Aragorn and Elendil in the same company ...Throw Gimli or Dain in ...

If you do this, then you officially have no respect for anything LOTR stands for.

Dain and Aragorn, possible. Gil-Galad and Elendil, given. Dain, Aragorn, Elendil, Gil-Galad fighting side by side...Tolkien has rolled over in his grave.

Granted, this IS allowed by the rules, but that doesn't make it right.

FuzzyOrb
24-04-2009, 22:33
If you do this, then you officially have no respect for anything LOTR stands for.

Dain and Aragorn, possible. Gil-Galad and Elendil, given. Dain, Aragorn, Elendil, Gil-Galad fighting side by side...Tolkien has rolled over in his grave.

Granted, this IS allowed by the rules, but that doesn't make it right.

This is warseer, we all left our morals at the door:D.

Sarah S
24-04-2009, 22:38
If you do this, then you officially have no respect for anything LOTR stands for.

Dain and Aragorn, possible. Gil-Galad and Elendil, given. Dain, Aragorn, Elendil, Gil-Galad fighting side by side...Tolkien has rolled over in his grave.

Granted, this IS allowed by the rules, but that doesn't make it right.

Like I have said in another thread, if I wanted to hear what Tolkein has to say, I would read the books. The appeal of the game is the "what-if" factor.

That said, I don't think anyone should be scrambling to make a thousand point formation anytime soon. There are sufficient gameplay reasons to not do so.

Nu Fenix
24-04-2009, 22:39
This is why the game will cause two camps to appear.

The first camp want to build armies around the theme and story of the game, and whilst they admit the army the face might not be appropriate at the time, such as a Last Alliance army of Elves led by Gilg-galag fighting an Isengard Uruk-hai force, both forces would be built appropriately.

The second camp want to build armies to be effective, and on the whole win. The settings gives them good looking models and reasons for X character or formation to exist and have their cool rules. But if they want Elendil and Aragorn leading the Grey Company to hit on 1s, then they will.

Due to my local gaming environment, where they all believe in option 2, I am forced to go towards option 2 also, whilst trying to stay within option 1 as much as possible.

The example of Aragorn and Elendil [though not the Grey Company] working together is an example of what another store is planning to do for a tournament at Warhammer World between their store and mine. I will put money down that the person doing that combination isn't old enough to drive, perhaps even have finished school.

In regards to 1's, it can be done with Durin's Guard against Defence 3 Orcs or Goblins, due to the appropriate Bane and Two-handed weapons. In that circumstance, my response would be that the Orc/Goblin player should have used something Defence 4+ against them if at all possible.

Sarah S
25-04-2009, 01:41
Have to bear in mind that die rolls still can't be modified past 6 though... So burning tons of Might in duels is less viable...

Emissary
25-04-2009, 02:17
For example, putting Gil-Galad, Aragorn and Elendil in the same company means that every attack the company has will automatically hit their targets, because even if you need 6/6, each roll gets +6, so the lowest you could achieve on either of the rolls would be a 7.

Throw Gimli or Dain in for a Rampage that is guaranteed to destroy every formation they fight.

Why bother play if someone wants to pull this type of garbage? Yeehaw, you "win". If your self esteem is so bad that you you have to pull something like this to pull off a victory you need to stop playing altogether and seek help.

Sarah S
25-04-2009, 02:22
Oh please. That kind of attitude isn't required.

That combo, though it might kill an enemy formation, isn't going to win any games.
If it did win a game, then I would be incredibly impressed at the skill of the player doing so.

That's 900-1000 points of Epic Heroes in a single formation. If the enemy player is somehow prevented from flanking that unit or getting in its rear, or killing the Heroes by whatever means are available, then the player who wins with that deserves a win and a trophy!

Also, anyone who thinks that Gil-Galad, Aragorn, Elendil and Dain in one formation shouldn't chop through hundreds of enemy models in a single turn is kidding themselves.

Emissary
25-04-2009, 02:32
It's required every time some person decides they have come up with some magical win button for the game. Especially when you say something like "1s always fail nonsense". Woohoo! I've taken any type of real skill or chance out of the game. Bow before my tactical greatness. It's like those losers that show up with the flavor of the month deathstar in WFB that's killing the game and then trying to get everyone to acknowledge their tactical "superiority".

Sarah S
25-04-2009, 02:38
Chance does not equal skill.

If you think it's a good idea to dump all those Heroes into a single formation for the benefit I have described, then try it. I daresay you would be better served by taking a more moderate list, or even taking the same list and spreading the Heroes around.

It's self-balancing because it's just not that good of an idea. The formation will be able to mulch whatever runs smack in to the front of it. Meanwhile the other half of the army is easily smashed by the enemy and the "deathstar" gets annihilated from every angle except the front.

And 1's always fail is nonsense because it's stupid to have an automatic 1/6 fail rate on any action no matter how likely it is to succeed. Previous editions of Warhammer had 1+ armour saves that barring modification would automatically succeed. Even in D20 systems, 1's always failing is nonsense. It's particularly stupid in a D6 system.

xxRavenxx
25-04-2009, 06:38
Have to bear in mind that die rolls still can't be modified past 6 though... So burning tons of Might in duels is less viable...

Are you sure? I can think of several rolls that can go to 7 or more. (Artillery fire, and charge rolls, and hard to kill tables, off the top of my head).

Quannum
25-04-2009, 08:56
Agreed with xxRavenxx.

Also, where does it say that "1's don't always fail"?

Q

Emissary
25-04-2009, 11:45
Chance does not equal skill.
Having no chance to fail requires less skill then having to manage risk. Tabletop wargames are pretty much exercises in managing risk to get the outcome you want. When you take the risk out, especially when it's to the level being described here, you're pretty much trying to ignore playing a big part of the game.

There are several other things about this type of deathstar you aren't addressing, mainly from my experiences with WFB.

1) the other units in the person's army aren't there to fight, the player should try to do keep them alive as much as possible while the main unit does it's thing. Yes, it's less likely in a scenario where you need multiple units doing things, but it brings me to my next point. Deathstars are about VP denial, not wiping out their army.
2) Epic Journey. With Aragorn's ability, that unit can basically teleport around mangling things. Plus you'll have three heroes with epic challenge to hold their target in place. Teleport in, then challenge until they're not moving. Plus if you take a hard unit (Def 8 or more) they'll probably still be there the next turn.

Overall, having some sort of deathstar list in the game is not a good thing.


Are you sure? I can think of several rolls that can go to 7 or more. (Artillery fire, and charge rolls, and hard to kill tables, off the top of my head).
The only rolls you can take over 6 are charge rolls and rolls on tables. The rules state it on page 64 or 65 (in the might section).

Nu Fenix
25-04-2009, 11:49
Where does it say 1's do fail?

Just because other games do, we can't apply the same rules to this one.

As for Might having limits on a dice roll, it is on page 65.

Each point of Might that is expended can be used to adjust a single dice score up or down by one to a maximum of 6 or minimum of 1.
[...]
Rolls for charge distances and on tables (such as the Extremely Hard to Kill! table) have no upper limit - Might can be used to modify these rolls beyond 6 if the player wishes.

Sarah S
25-04-2009, 17:20
1) the other units in the person's army aren't there to fight, the player should try to do keep them alive as much as possible while the main unit does it's thing. Yes, it's less likely in a scenario where you need multiple units doing things, but it brings me to my next point. Deathstars are about VP denial, not wiping out their army.
2) Epic Journey. With Aragorn's ability, that unit can basically teleport around mangling things. Plus you'll have three heroes with epic challenge to hold their target in place. Teleport in, then challenge until they're not moving. Plus if you take a hard unit (Def 8 or more) they'll probably still be there the next turn.

They're totally different games. Combats in WotR are so brutal, there's no way that half an army can even delay an entire army. It works in Warhammer because combats are so much less dependent on actually killing things. Stuff dies so much faster in WotR it's not even an option to try that sort of delaying tactic.

As far as Epic Journey - Have you looked at the Might cost for that lately? Unless the formation is exceedingly small he's going to be doing that exactly one time during the game.

It really is not a viable strategy.

Emissary
25-04-2009, 17:36
As far as Epic Journey - Have you looked at the Might cost for that lately? Unless the formation is exceedingly small he's going to be doing that exactly one time during the game.

It really is not a viable strategy.
Bah, maybe you haven't noticed the fortune called Desperate Heroics, Epic Renewal or Counsellor. This isn't to mention if he has a small army, keeps the entire thing together and uses them as bait for the epic unit with heroic fight.

All he needs to have happen is for his army to survive until that main block and cripple out the important things which would become the focus of the game which is not good.

xxRavenxx
25-04-2009, 17:38
Ahh, grand. Thanks for that info.

Sarah S
25-04-2009, 17:46
Bah, maybe you haven't noticed the fortune called Desperate Heroics, Epic Renewal or Counsellor. This isn't to mention if he has a small army, keeps the entire thing together and uses them as bait for the epic unit with heroic fight.

All he needs to have happen is for his army to survive until that main block and cripple out the important things which would become the focus of the game which is not good.

So now you're throwing more points, in the form of a Fate or another 200+ point Hero.

Please, make up such a 2000 point list so I can laugh at it.

Emissary
25-04-2009, 17:58
Woohoo, 50 points for a fortune. That'll break the bank right there.

Something tells me you'll just continue to ignore what you want and focus on what is easiest to keep up with your facade. Rather like the managing risk bit. I'm not saying that it's unbeatable, but it isn't going to make for a balanced or fun game either.

Sarah S
25-04-2009, 18:04
Something tells me you'll just continue to ignore what you want and focus on what is easiest to keep up with your facade.

What are you even talking about?

I used it as an example of a situation where a player can modify the dice to the point where the actual rolls don't matter, which is a result of the rules of the game.

It's an extreme example, and I bet we never see it on the table - but I only mentioned it to illustrate a point. I have no idea what "facade" you are talking about, and I don't really understand your attitude.


I'm not saying that it's unbeatable

I'm saying that not only is it beatable, but it's a damn poor idea. Putting that many Epic Heroes in one place provides significantly diminishing returns. The game is better balanced than for this "tactic" to be viable.

Emissary
25-04-2009, 18:22
I'm saying that not only is it beatable, but it's a damn poor idea. Putting that many Epic Heroes in one place provides significantly diminishing returns. The game is better balanced than for this "tactic" to be viable.
I used to think the same thing about WFB. The game is still new so things haven't gotten worked out as well as they have been in WFB. The fact that something like this can exist is worrisome.

What I've been thinking is far less grand. All you need to do is take a normal 1500 point dwarf army including a large block of khazad guard kinbrad and have balin (for epic defense) and gimli (for epic rampage). Actually, Dain would be better then Gimli because for 25 points he's harder to kill, comes with inspiring leader, terror, counsellor and epic challege. The rest of the army would be fleshed out as normal with an emphasis on guys with shields (especially the rare D10 vault guardians). Then take Elendil and Aragorn as your allies to bring the army up to 2000 points with the 50 point fortune.

If you throw the 4 characters into the khazad guard, they get a +4 to their rolls and an additional +1 for great weapons getting to that hallowed +5. In addition, you have the epic rampage to destroy formations and the epic defense to make the unit D9. The army's hard to kill, has a good courage for the spirit grasp models out there on the khazad guard and can function rather well.

Overall, I don't think the army is that far out there.

Sarah S
25-04-2009, 18:33
And are you saying further that it would make for an un-fun game given the way the WotR scenarios work?

Emissary
25-04-2009, 19:01
Are you honestly saying that such a unit would not be good in the 3 standard scenarios? You don't think it would be good at keeping the hill if it could wipe out a unit or two every round as long as it's standing on it? Or that it wouldn't do well trying to take the 5 objectives when it could be fed 1-2 early, then it could teleport a few time to ambush a unit for their token then maybe even teleport away to the safety somewhere else? Or that when you're trying to get points for killing companies and heroes if a lot of your points are tied up in your army and you can mulch theirs without rolling? Which one of those would the army suck at?

And yes, I think it would be unfun for your opponent if they have to go up against a unit that wipes out 1-2 formations a turn without rolling and is D7-9 with good mobility.

Sarah S
25-04-2009, 19:16
Ok. I give up. It's the greatest thing ever.

Heroic Duels are impossible to win. Black Breath doesn't exist. Black Dart doesn't exist. Artillery doesn't exist. Monsters don't exist. Cavalry doesn't exist. A million spells that reduce Courage don't exist. Terror certainly doesn't exist. There's nothing we can do.

We might as well just concede every game. Not just the ones where the opponent dumps a thousand points of Heroes into a formation, but every single game. Because someone's always doing something that we can't counter.
:rolleyes:

EDIT: By the way, when I first got the book, these kind of units were the first thing that leapt into my mind. I actually proxied a handful of games - not using Dwarves, Gondor with Wardens of the Keys joined by Aragorn, Elendil, Dain and Gil-Galad. --> it was actually a theme, because I was trying to cram as many Kings into a single formation as possible...

It doesn't work well. It is too hard to protect anything from anything in this game. Things simply die too fast to make effective use of that sort of investment.

Reinholt
25-04-2009, 19:26
How many games have you two played so far?

;)

One of the things I find interesting when people discuss WotR tactics is the emphasis on character ability combinations; they are quite powerful, but they are also extremely limited.

Why?

Because you only have a few might points. You cannot Epic Rampage every single turn for 8 straight turns (at least not without Gandalf, but then the answer to that is just to kill Gandalf in a duel - every character has a weakness). Sure, you can bust out things that are pretty ridiculous on a one-off basis, but so you can your opponent!

When your epic rampaging unit runs into a roadblock with Epic Sacrifice (or Khamul) and then gets flanked the next turn by a large cavalry unit and wiped out, it's not as impressive.

There are all kinds of powerful things in WotR that are available to both sides. For my part, if someone fielded that unit, I'd just field Khamul and make you keep rolling; after all, you are doing infinity hits, essentially, which means I can also reflect back infinity hits and wipe out every single unit you have within 12" of Khamul.

Oops.

There's a counter to everything, and the best tactics are often extremely limited use tactics as well, because might is not infinite. From my experience playing so far, the most dangerous things are either the ones that generate might every turn (Aragorn, Gandalf, etc) or things that get free abilities they can use constantly and are lethal with them (Gulavhar).

Emissary
25-04-2009, 19:40
With Desperate Heroics and Dain's might of 4, you can do it quite a few times. If you had those 4 characters in the unit you're looking at 14 might to play with, plus Touched by Destiny, plus the fate. I don't see them having might problems until they've done quite a bit. One of those counters could stop them in a turn, but it looks to me like the unit will be able to start it up again the next turn without too many problems.

There are a few things that can slow it down, but it can be done quite a few times. Plus the unit can duel well which will help against stuff like Khamul happening several turns. Aragorn is +2 fight over khamul and gets to roll 2 dice. Both have epic strike but Khamul won't be able to strike plus duel.

Yes, it's all theoretical and could change on the battlefield. But from my experience it looks fairly staunch.

Sarah S
25-04-2009, 19:46
How many games have you two played so far?

;)

One of the things I find interesting when people discuss WotR tactics is the emphasis on character ability combinations; they are quite powerful, but they are also extremely limited.

Why?

Because you only have a few might points. You cannot Epic Rampage every single turn for 8 straight turns (at least not without Gandalf, but then the answer to that is just to kill Gandalf in a duel - every character has a weakness). Sure, you can bust out things that are pretty ridiculous on a one-off basis, but so you can your opponent!

When your epic rampaging unit runs into a roadblock with Epic Sacrifice (or Khamul) and then gets flanked the next turn by a large cavalry unit and wiped out, it's not as impressive.

There are all kinds of powerful things in WotR that are available to both sides. For my part, if someone fielded that unit, I'd just field Khamul and make you keep rolling; after all, you are doing infinity hits, essentially, which means I can also reflect back infinity hits and wipe out every single unit you have within 12" of Khamul.

Oops.

There's a counter to everything, and the best tactics are often extremely limited use tactics as well, because might is not infinite. From my experience playing so far, the most dangerous things are either the ones that generate might every turn (Aragorn, Gandalf, etc) or things that get free abilities they can use constantly and are lethal with them (Gulavhar).

This is what I've been trying to say, and like I said, I have proxied a few games using such a combo in Hurin's group. It just doesn't work well enough for its investment, and if falls down once you lose some of the pieces - or even board position.

Emissary
25-04-2009, 20:19
I mainly have been posting through this just to get the counters and stuff out there so if people see something similar they have an idea of what to do. The worst part of something like this is the shock of seeing it and trying to come up with something on the fly.

That being said, I'm going to do this list of said counters and how the unit would react based on a 2000 point dwarf list including the combo of 4 Khazad Guard Kinbrad, Balin, Dain, Elendil, Aragorn and the fortune Desperate Heroics. The entire unit plus the fortune costs 975 points.

1) You aren't going to see a realistic list with the formation. Well, the formation still leaves 1025 points worth of dwarves and already has 1 formation plus your general. That's up to the person playing it,
2) List of spells to debuff the formation. The formation has at least 14 might available for will of iron and can have more if it has a champion, any counsellors (Dain or others bought) or the fortune. The formation also has a base courage of 5 and 3 of the heroes provide a 6 which allows it to take a courage debuff or two and still have a decent chance to pass the test.
3) Duels. Every character in the formation has a resilience of 3 (4 for dain) and have fight values of 6, 7, 7, and 10. The 6, 7, and 7 all have epic strike and Aragorn have epic duel.
4) Artillery or shooting could damage the unit on the way in. The unit has a defense of 7 which can be brought to a 9 with gloin's epic defense. Also, artillery cannot move so if a real problem presents itself, the unit could teleport behind the unit and take them out the next turn. If they really had to, the formation could teleport back out by the fortune to replenish Aragorn.
5) Specific things like Khamul or Epic Sacrifice could blunt the attacks to waste the might. Dain has 4 might available for epic rampage and has the fortune. Khamul could also be dueled by any one of the 4 superior duelers in the unit.

These are just some thing I see available for the unit right off the bat that aren't too out there and are decent counters for the proposed counters. Again, it's something to think about for someone to have to play against such a setup.

Axis
25-04-2009, 21:27
Like I have said in another thread, if I wanted to hear what Tolkein has to say, I would read the books. The appeal of the game is the "what-if" factor.

That said, I don't think anyone should be scrambling to make a thousand point formation anytime soon. There are sufficient gameplay reasons to not do so.

Whilst i agree that what-ifs make the game very interesting, I don't see a great what-if in this instance. Elendil and aragorn are both using the same sword really. Anduril is just Narsil reforged. That combo is just dumb and shouldn't even be considered a what-if.

xxRavenxx
25-04-2009, 21:49
On a character note - I find that the strongest of them arent the men with lots of flashy abilties (though a couple of them fall into the category I name next), but the ones with heaps of might.

Might seems to be the big thing in this game, and having it to throw about seems wonderful.

Best 3 evil heros? I'll give you a hint, its 2 goblins and an orc... 11 might for under 300 points. yummy. (Plus some awesome abilities too, to be honest, but id pay the points for that might anyway).

Good heros I've had the most problems with? Aragorn and his friend the bearded pin-cushion (Boromir to those of you who dont make the connection based on him being shot up with 2" dowel by everyones favorite Uruk-hai...) because they just have so much bloody might to funnel into actions. Turn after turn of popping epic actions and heroic whatnots, or just them simply burning through a stack of the chips to bash all my own heros down with ease.

Big angry abilities look nice untill you realise that some fight 10 dueling monster is going to mop up a few hundred points worth of heros and then kick your units ass because everyone with a name just up and got murdered. (Well, I say that, but Aragorn is obviously going to win the duel, being a dueling monster himself, but y'know, all his friends get owned.)

Lord Asuryan
28-04-2009, 21:48
Both sides of this argument are stupid.

From the fluff perspective, can't gamers have one game that isn't invaded by WAAC? I mean, GW did a good job on this one, do we need to ruin it with the quest for the holy combo?

from a gaming perspecitve, the formation's not even that good. flank and rear charge it (not hard, when you've got, lessee, 300+200+200+225+unit=925+ points to deal with it) and woopee! you kill a ******* load of them, even if they mangle your formations after.

also, that particular combo doesn't work, I believe. there is a rule, IIRC thatsays that you only ever use the best modifier.

even if I'm wrong, the unit can only use the combo on one formation a turn, leaving two others to continue attacking. SO SCARY.

also, while you can what if Gil-galad surviving, you simply CANNOT what-if Elendil and Aragorn in one army. men don't live a thousand years, even numenoreans, and, as said before, they're essentially wielding the same sword.

sheesh.