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Devil
25-04-2009, 00:02
I enjoy using Manfredd Von Carstein. I have a friend who likes to field the Prince and Star Dragon Combination in 2250 games. That dragon should be feared and respected by any army if you ask me. How do you think I should deal with him given that I'd rather not take the whole Zombie Dragon Red Fury /Beguile/Dreadlance approach and opt to take Manfredd along?


One way that I thought of is challenges. ION can bring back your champions and you can challenge the Prince and tye up his Dragon in the challenge. Because the rules say that a heroes mount must fight in the challenge also. I would be giving him one champion who could be brought back into combat the next round to challenge again if needs be, and in turn have a combat resolve of 5 or 6 depending on the unit. But this is only a viable solution to tying up the dragon and if he hits me in the flanks you can kiss that goodbye. I stupidly forwarned him about my challenge plan.. I dont know why but I seldom keep secrets from the players at my table. I generally let them know my tactics. I figure if I let them know ahead of time and I still win then that makes me a better player ( this does not mean during the game I warn them of every little thing im about to do).



So you VC players out there. You who have had much success against the Star Dragon Prince Combination. How would you handle that thing?

Shiodome
25-04-2009, 00:28
i'm no vampire player, and i've never seen a game with vampires vs a dragon... but i'd guess most vampire players would summon a small unit in front of the dragon, and 'danse' the unit into the dragon... leaving it tarpitted for the rest of the game.

pure theoryhammer though, hopefully a vampire player will be along shortly to speak from experience :)

ARVO
25-04-2009, 01:01
Im a five year vampire vet so ill try to help out...

I have a couple suggestions...

1) If youre clever enough, try tying up the dragon long enough to nail a heavy cav charge onto it.

2) A vampire with the nightshroud in a unit of skellies will be a nice suprise to that sneaky elf and can certainly take him out since he is striking first. Once hes dead, the dragon can be taken out with a unit of wraiths.

Granted this is all easier said than done, but consider these suggestions more of a "along those lines" sorta deal.

HellRaid
25-04-2009, 01:07
There is one unit in the Vampire Counts armylist that can single-handedly deal with Lord-level characters on monstrous mounts, Steam Tanks, Stegadons, Bloodletters, Skinks and Chariots.

This unit is named: Zombies.

You have Mannfred - this is good. Give him the staff of +1 to casting rolls and +1 to dispel - this means that your opponent (with his fighting-Lord) will not be able to combat your superior magic as easily. To deal with this elven lord, you must perform the following steps:

1. Raise zombies near Lord.
2. Vanhels zombies into Lord (like he'll try and stop you... it's just 6 or so zombies, after all!).
3. Invocation those zombies!

You'll want about 20 (roughly 2-3 castings of Invocation added to your original 5-7 zombies) so that you'll last at least until your next magic phase.

The next step is to completely ignore the Lord until you're ready to deal with him, other than raising those zombies back to 20 guys (Black Knights rear charge? Yes please!).

50 points of zombies = 500 points of elves.


Zombies are my favourite unit right now. They win things for me :)

fubukii
25-04-2009, 07:58
it will depend on how much magic defense he has, the zombie trick would work, if he doesnt have alot.

Gaargod
25-04-2009, 10:08
Star dragon + lord on top = about 600pts and 2 character choices.

2 Mages for magic defense = another 350pts or so.

He now has about half his army gone into characters (which coincidentally, if you're taking Mannfred, you probably will too). And he has at best, 4 dispel dice. You have about 15, with Mannfred's Skull Staff cancelling out his +1dispel.

Oh dear. Methinks he won't be stopping too many of your spells.

Zombie danse in, laugh at silly expensive lord - at best, he can kill 11 a turn. Except him to actually kill about 6 or 7, which is very easy to keep up with, especially with the bonus to Zombie raising. Try magicing him to death if you have the spare dice occasionally.

You can if you feel like it even try lobbing a unit of black knights into him on a rear charge (challenge, win on combat res, hope his dragon goes away. If not, res and repeat).

W0lf
25-04-2009, 18:10
Countering star dragons with vampires is incredibly easy.

Option A) Challenge with champions who can be re-raised
Option B) Tarpit
Option C) BOTH

Seriously just push some zombies into it and then flank/rear with another unit.

Devil
25-04-2009, 19:29
Hmm I'm getting the picture that most of you say zombies are the wisest choice.
I totally agree. But he is not stupid he knows I will tarpit him and he always brings no less then 2 dispel scrolls and I can see him bringing 3 dispel scrolls against me as he has nothing against tailoring lists if you know the opponent your about to play. Still he may not be weak weak in magic but he should be weaker then I

W0lf thanks for the advice I did however already know about the re raising champions/challenging idea. Its a plan I plan to use. I shared it with him unfortunately so he will not be charging any unit of skeletons or ghouls or graveguard from the front I can assurre you. See I kinda take the high road in my group. I tell the guys how I will play and what I would do to stop them. Because my whole goal since I win 95% of the games I play in my group is to help the others to become better players because I want them to kick butt down at the local bunker where quite a few douche bags reside (jaxom I am not speaking of Ernies games) and I would enjoy nothing more then for me and my crew to stomp them. This asside I still like to win at my table at my home as well. It kinda sucks believe it or not if you win alot, because there is this expectation and this added pressure that you have gotta win. To tell you the truth when I do lose there is this wave of relief that comes over me like that expectation is removed for the time being=). So thats why I tell my buddies what to prepare for when playing me. This sometimes makes it harder especially with the High Elf player since he is a great general and wins alot of games hisself.



If he doesn't tailor his list and he runs it the way he did he will have one level 2 caster with 2 dispel scrolls and his Prince will be using a standard lance. This means both the Dragon and the Prince will fight with mundane nonmagical attacks. But the Prince is warded and armored out the wazoo. Hopefully in the first round I can cast some very agressive magics on his units that he will dispel with a scroll such as wind of undeath and Curse of Years and lower his ability to stop my magic and set him up for the raisedead/vahnelsdansemacabre combination.


Question. What happens if you cast Vahnels Danse Macabre on a unit that is in hand to hand combat with say the prince? Does it override his strike first since its a spell and I get to attack first or does it come to initiative?

fubukii
25-04-2009, 19:34
ok even with 3 scrolls, heres the scenario

you have 15-16 pd.
he has at most 5 dd with the crystal item.
first turn if you get it cast alot of raising spells, such as invocation to beef up your lines, throw out some damaging spells to suck his scrolls out. curse of years comes to mind as its cheap and rather effective.

and even if he scrolls our vanhels right away, theres alway next turn :) i doubt he will smash through your unit quickly,unless he gets behind you. unit champion challenges work great to hold him off as well

i could give you more tactics, but id have to know what you field.

generally all vc answers to anything come from the magic phase :)