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Angelust
25-04-2009, 00:37
Edit: Making a proper unit by unit tactica.

Moria Goblin Warband - The bread and butter unit of Moria. With prowler, M8, mob, and pathfinder(all), these units can really excel as outflankers and high mobility units. When comparing this unit to a unit such as men of Minas Tirith, Morannon Orcs, or other regular common troops, it's easy to be underwhelmed by their courage, fight value, and comparatively high point cost for their basic stat-line. However, their great mobility along with prowler can really put the punch back into this unit if you manage to get a good formation of 3-4 into someone's flank. The only downside to this unit is that Prowlers hit harder, and Gundabads have a much better defense. THis can be a good screen unit or filler unit to bulk out your common formations and get more wounds onto the table. Consider adding shortbows as an added bonus and offensive option, but the 18" range will force you to get close.

Moria Prowler Warband- With two handed weapons, prowler, and poison, these are a mobile hammer unit for our army. With a low defense, they won't survive much shooting or combat, but they'll be able to put on the hurt if you can get them into a flank or rear. Possible tactic with these guys is to position them through and near difficult terrain so that you can outmaneuver your opponents.

Gundabad Blackshields- This unit is much better than shielded moria goblins, with a great defense. I personally like them in very large formations, with 6-9 companies acting as my main force. Add a drummer and a hero (or Durburz' overlord ability), and you can move into the opponent's deployment zone on the first turn, adding the pressure to a gunline army. Only downside is that they take a rare slot.

Cavalry:
Warg Pack - A great unit at a great price. Take them in units of 3-4, an look for an opportune time to charge.

Giant Spider Brood - Very good on the offense, though pretty pricey in a Moria list. I personally prefer to take Druzhag and summon these guys rather than buying them normally.

Cloud of Bats - A unit with a lot of possible uses, but very expensive and not that durable. Maybe keep them in reserve, and fly them in if you see an opportune charge open.

Spider Broodling Swarm - With a D10 from shooting, these guys can be a perfect counter to shooting heavy armies, and can go after those war-machines. Don't let them get charged, and if possible, use them to screen your pricier units from shooting.

Monsters:
Spider Queen. The only reason I can see to use her is if you want a themed spider army, and want to use her leadership to boost up your other beasties. Not really sure she's worth it otherwise.

Cave Troll - Cheapest troll in the game, and nothing particularly special about this one. It's still a little early, but I personally find trolls a little too easy to kill. For the same price, you can get 3 units of troops, which will usually kill and survive more and longer than the troll. However, there are some advantages. Monsters have a small profile, so they usually won't receive as many attacks back as a big unit of troops. Also, they strike first, which can reduce a few of the attacks coming back on whittled down formations. Terror can also cause trouble to low courage formations, and the fact that the troll, as long as it lives, will not lose combat, means you can disorder a formation for charges later.

Stone Giant. Extremely hard to kill, relatively low point cost. I haven't used this guy, so I don't really know how he operates in a game.

Cave Drake. I'd personally rather take two trolls than a cave drake, but can be useful for taking out wizards and other epic-strike-less heroes.

Dragon of Ancient Times - The choice usually comes between a balrog or a dragon when including a heavy monster into your force. The dragon has a slightly higher defense, an awesome breath weapon attack, and is a flying monster. He has the option to be a spellcaster. However his offensive combat ability is less than the balrog generally. I think this one is better as a formation killer and big heavy harasser, especially against static units. Dragon can be pretty vulnerable to epic-strike duelers, and anything that reduces it's fight prior to a duel. Black-breath, the fortune which causes an instant terror failure, etc, and your dragon just became F0-1.

Balrog - Balrog has higher fight and comes as a Ruin Spellcaster. The reroll 1s and 2s means he'll usually do at least 8-10 wounds per combat, and even hard anvil units with shields will find their defense dropping to 5-6 before your other weedy goblins charge. Balrog has same basic weaknesses as Dragon, though lack of flight means he's a lot less mobile. I personally like the Balrog better for fluff and looks, but I think the dragon will usually be a better performer for the money.

Characters:
Durburz - Possibly one of the best epic heroes of any army list. For 25 pts more than a regular captain, you get LOTS of special abilities. Make him your main hero, and his epic cowardice will save you from losing a lot of victory points int he Kill Point style mission. Overlord means your goblins can remain very cheap, and do heroic moves, heroic fights, and other heroic actions when the time comes. His leadership boost is almost necessary in any list with more than a couple units of goblins. Probaby undercosted at least 30-40 points.

Druzhag - Another great hero, and also undercosted a good 50 points or so. The ability to summon and use Moria's cavalry for just 1 might point, and you can raise up to 300+ points worth of cav over three turns if you're lucky. Also, he has access to the wilderness lore, which is a great lore! It's pretty ridiculous that he costs as much as a shaman. Unless you have some fluff reasons why you don't want him, take him every time. At lower point games, he is almost broken. In higher point games, he's still very useful for his points.

Please feel free to add!

stiggie
25-04-2009, 09:28
well in my 1000 point list i take 3 units of 4 companies, not that big but it gives you plenty of movement to stay out of line of sight and more playability.

e/g.

4 formations of warg charges one big unit of 9 goblins (with shields). warg get 24 dice charge (6 for each formation in contact) + 8 standard + 4 for higher fight (36 total) wounding on 5's is about 12 wounds statistically of top of my head?. which would mean goblins get 16 attacks baisic (two companies) and then 12 dice for support (mob rule) so 28 in total which wounding on 5s would make around 8 wounds?.. thats 4 wargs dead (8 wounds) and 12 goblins dead..

now say the 4 formations of warg charge one unit of 3 goblins (with shields for fairness :P) and there are two formations of 3 goblins nearby that charge into the flanks.

the wargs would get warg get 24 dice charge (6 for each formation in contact) + 8 standard + 4 for higher fight minus 6 for being attacked in two flanks (30 total) wounding on 5's makes about 10 wounds?

in total the goblins would get 38 attacks baisic (the two formations on the side + the formation that just took 10 wounds) plus 4 for support (mob rule from flanking units)
the flanking units will be wounding on 4's which with 36 attacks should do around 16 wounds? and the unit on the front with his 6 attacks wounding on 5's should do 2. thats 18 in total

wargs kill 10 goblins and goblins kill 9 wargs (18 wounds)

pretty long but u get my drift? :P lol

Billpete002
25-04-2009, 10:28
I would only take the max units if you plan on using an anvil type tactics 2 max goblin units with trolls on the flanks (with other critters) this ties the units down for a turn to get flanking in.

This is under the assumption your opponent doesn't have his "good" units for flanking on the sides either. In which case I agree with Stiggie that smaller units 4-5 goblins are better.

Angelust
25-04-2009, 17:11
Do we then add command elements to the 4-5 company gobbos? I think one of the benefits of those kinds of units is how cheap they are, but add in a captain and it's quite a bit more expensive.

I've also heard of lists using gobbos as shaman bunkers as pretty useful, throwing bolts of fire out like nobody's business.

fubukii
25-04-2009, 20:43
drums arre pretty useful on your large blackshield blocks to give them higher mv, higher courage and rerolls, on small units i would forgo command options and save them for your mainstay units.

Reinholt
26-04-2009, 01:40
My thoughts, from what I have seen:

1 - Units of 2 companies or less are pointless (unless, perhaps, archers taking up spare points in a list), as they are going to get wrecked in a single fight phase by most units.

2 - Even in larger combats, a solid offensive unit (or two) can do a ridiculous amount of damage to plain goblins. Consider being charged, for instance, by four companies of Riders of Rohan Eored. They'd fight first, wound you on 4's, and put out about 10 attacks per company, so you're down 20 goblins before you fight. That's enough to wipe out a three company formation before they strike back. With six companies, you are at half strength before you hit back, and you're bleeding badly after that.

3 - Therefore, there seem to be a few ways to me to field Goblins effectively that I've seen:

- Smaller unit, no command, bows. Here you are not pretending you will win combats, you are trying to flank people to shoot them up. Given how cheap goblins are, this can actually work decently.

- Large units (six companies) with shields. The greater resilience is definitely necessary to keep them alive, or a single devastating charge can wipe out the unit; having no room for error with something as unwieldy as a six company infantry formation is a bad idea. Captain or hero might not be bad.

- Huge units (nine companies) with shields. Here is where you consider taking a truly mean hero in the front rank, a full command, and maybe sneaking some kind of shaman in. These units are genuinely tough for anyone to get rid of (especially with the right magic enhancing them), and surprisingly quick given the speed of Goblins.

Things I would avoid:

- Large units of archers (hard to get good positions, likely to get annihilated in combat in one go, so you are better off splitting up, and short bows don't benefit as much as, say, crossbows from having a captain with might to call heroic shoots).

- Small units of melee goblins (at all).

- Medium sized units with lots of upgrades (if you are going to take the upgrades, get a huge unit to give the benefit to the most possible goblins, and keep the unit alive as long as possible).

Angelust
26-04-2009, 05:18
So it seems like small units of goblin archers can fill up your core choices, and possibly a large unit or two of goblin warriors can fill a few more common slots.. but the vibe I'm getting is that goblins are not really worth their points if put into a melee role.

We have lots of good hammer units, and maybe a good option is to have a 9 company unit of goblins with armor or udun + an epic hero with some sort of defense boost to act as a mainline meat-shield/screen.

A big question on my mind is: what are your opinions of Cave Drakes? They cost more than twice as much as a cave troll. What is it about them that justifies this?

I'm interested in making a dragon force with ancient dragon spellcaster and 3-4 cave drakes. I might then add in some goblin units as archers and cannon fodder as needed.

What do you guys think?

Angelust
28-04-2009, 06:04
Possible tactic:

Khamul + Goblin meat shield - 9 companies of goblins, no shields, maybe bows, Khamul leading. Heroic move to go 18 inches forward, right up into their face. Walk all of your other units like cav, balrog, dragon, goblins, etc, up behind the formation. Next turn, move the 9-company, charge if needed, and position the rest of your army for charges.

With Khamul inside, the opponent will be taking losses if they shoot at it, and only a decent formation of cav will really cause it a headache. Even then, they are going to recieve roughly 1/3 of the damage back on them, which is usually more than twice as expensive as a goblin.

Thoughts on this tactic?

Nu Fenix
28-04-2009, 13:50
Be careful of over-relying on Khamul for this, as if he dies to a duel, your entire tactic crumbles.

Also, Khamul raises the true value of those Goblins when working out how effective it is to kill them, and eats up some of your allied unit allowance.

miker1
29-04-2009, 11:15
I really like the Dragon [upgraded to a Magic user]. With its high strength flame attack and general hardness to kill, it is quite superb.

moar barmu
12-05-2009, 00:59
Would anyone like to do a summary of the heroes and formations available to thsi faction? It would help me out a lot. Thanks

Angelust
15-05-2009, 22:00
Updated to have a unit by unit summary.

Angelust
22-05-2009, 19:24
Man, this place is pretty dead.

I had a game yesterday, and I wanted to gauge your thoughts.

Giant Spiders - Do you ever buy them? I usually think Druzhag is a much better choice. He can summon them for 1 might, and he can put them wherever they need to be before a charge, ensuring that they receive minimal shooting and counter-attack.

Personally, I think their defense of 3 is just too low to start with them on the board for their points cost, as any unit of archers can destroy them in a couple rounds of shooting. When they do charge, however, it's pain time.


With that, I had a semi-rules question I wanted to pose to you guys. If Druzhag uses 1 might to summon 2 companies of Spiders on a d3, can he use 2 more might to bump that up to 4 companies? Normally you roll a d3 on an actual 6-sided dice, but this is an abstraction for a theoretical 1-2-3 random roll. So using might to up that roll from a 2 to a 3 would cost, I think, 1 might point. What do you guys think?

Nu Fenix
22-05-2009, 21:08
Well, the rules describe rolling a D3 on page 27, where you roll a normal D6 and half it. So I would accept that Might is spent on the D6 before it is halved.
So if you rolled a 3, then you would need two Might to change it to a 5 for that extra Spider company, but would only need one Might if you rolled a 4.

I also agree that Druzhag is much better then spiders, because of how fragile they are. Tho I still want to do a army of nothing but Giant Spiders, Spider Queens, Spider Broodlings and Shelob, with Druzhag being the army leader :D Mounted on a spider of course ;)

Having Wargs with a Chieftan in front of Giant Spiders can be used to soak fire, and can outmove the spiders due to being able to make AtD rolls.

KaneBlaireau
03-06-2009, 03:50
Hey, new poster here. Why would you take Wargs over Warg Riders? Same point cost but the Riders are more powerful. Is their some advantage I am overlooking?

Angelust
03-06-2009, 08:08
How are the riders more powerful? Their options? I believe they both have the same basic stats otherwise.

Also, I'm not sure, but are the regular warg-riders also prowlers?

gunfex
03-06-2009, 08:16
They are prowlers as well as skilled riders under the Mordor entry.But taking warg riders is not an option unless you take them as allies in the Misty Mountain list. I prefer the wargs - more true to Tolkien in my opinion and they have a really cool warg chieftain. I also love the Misty mountain list because of the possibility of taking wargs, spiders, bats and a dragon - as well as goblins and trolls of course!! Summoning wargs or spiders using Druzhag is also great.

Angelust
03-06-2009, 10:08
Misty Mountains is kind of like the Rohan of Evil. Balanced out by a great core infantry unit of course...

KaneBlaireau
04-06-2009, 03:37
Thanks for the input guys. Yes, its definitely more in keeping with the theme to have just Wargs, but if you have no other allied units, I would see no reason to NOT take the Warg Riders!

Edonil
04-06-2009, 04:11
I have a reason- the plastic Wargs are nice. The Riders are terrible. I'm a Mordor player, and the only way I'll be taking Warg Riders is if I can get my hands on the metals. Expensive? Oh heck yes. But so much more visually appealing.

HRM
07-06-2009, 14:53
I must say, and I know this isn't strictly related to tactics (at all, actually), but does anyone else find the model for the Dragon a little, well, disapointing? I was hoping it would be, like, HUGE.

Angelust
12-06-2009, 04:55
Yeah...I've been considering using a riderless High Elf Dragon from WHFB..but mine has a seat on his back :-p.

Captain_Molo
14-06-2009, 03:52
It was mentioned in the original post that a Dragon could be reduced to fight 0 by the Inner Glory Fortune. However wouldn't the Dragon never have to take a terror test as it causes terror itself?

someone2040
14-06-2009, 04:45
It was mentioned in the original post that a Dragon could be reduced to fight 0 by the Inner Glory Fortune. However wouldn't the Dragon never have to take a terror test as it causes terror itself?
Warhammer Fantasy rules do not apply to War of the Ring.
Terror doesn't cancel out Terror in this game.

Angelust
14-06-2009, 05:00
Yeah. Terrorized dragons, balrogs, Saurons, and the like cause me tears...

Morthak
14-06-2009, 09:38
That's because Courage reflects how brave they are, not being scary themselves. A dragon isn't that brave, he rather flees than charging into something that can hurt him. A Dragon stays Terrifying, so do the elves, it's just the high courage that makes the difference.

Oh, Misty Mountains Tactica...

Druzzhag and Durburz are both must haves, far too cheap for what they do, and there is no reason not to take Gundabad Blackshields instead of normal goblins, for 5 points you get +1S, +1(3)D, +1C and the steadfasting SR. They are Rare, that's all.
My opponent once played a game with no goblins, only Spiders, Wargs and Gundabad Blackshields, worked quite well, especially since everything is cheap as chips, so he added Dru & Dur and a Dragon.

,Morthak

Hellfury
27-06-2009, 08:52
Durbūrz & Drūzhag are both incredibly undercosted for what they do.

But you also have to take into consideration that they are:
1) just Goblins (really REALLY bad assed Goblins to boot)
2) the only Epic Hero options available to the list without relying on allies

Misty Mountains also do not offer any legendary formations with which to possibly include so how good they are can also to make up for that detriment.

That said, if either or both of these are compulsory then so should be the Fate known as "The Crown of Carn Dūm".

[edit]
I will attempt to explain in detail the strategy in how I use Durbūrz, Goblin King of Moria; Drūzhag the Beastcaller and the Fate known as "The Crown of Carn Dūm".

Allow me to discuss their abilities before going further. (this may not be relevant to many but because this is a tactica thread to enlighten others, I believe that exhaustive explanation is not a bad thing in this case)

The Crown of Carn Dūm: (page 91)
A powerful magical device imbued left by the Witchking of Angmar after his defeat at Fornost. Its a capricious item that draws the life force from whomever it crowns to feed its foul magics, inevitably draining the wearer who is not himself powerful enough to resist its dweomer.
This item is a great buffer for a Misty Mountain list as its can grant a potentially deep Might pool for the player. Its synergy also works well with Durbūrz or Drūzhag because they each have a Resilience of 3. This is important because they will only ever die from using the Crown on a roll of 3.
Regardless of the result, the crown will always power their expenditure of Might.

Just remember that on a D6 roll of:
1 or 2: The Hero's Might pool is reduced by 1 point
3: The Hero dies (the Might is still expended)
4, 5 or 6: The Crown provides the Might, not depleting the Hero's Might pool any further.

An Epic Hero who wears the Crown that has a Relience of 3 can expect to get about 8 rolls on average before he rolls the 3 that kills him.
But thats not to say you wont roll that 3 result right away. I have played a couple games where Drūzhag summoned a formation of Giant Spiders only for the Crown to kill him on first turn. But its potential benefits certainly do outweigh the 16% chance that he will bite it in any given use of Might.


Durbūrz, Goblin King of Moria:
Durbūrz has a great courage stat for a goblin. Indeed, since he has the "Inspiring Leader (Goblins)" special rule, he should be considered a compulsory Epic Hero if your Misty Mountain force include any decent numbers of Goblins. Just keep a part of each of your Goblin formations within 12" of his model and he shares his Courage of 5 with each of them. Since Drūzhag is also a Goblin he shares in this benefit as well, but more on that nuance later.

His Resilience of 3 makes him formidable to remove. Most other heroes typically have a Resilience of 2.

His Fight value of 4 doesn't make him a beast in combat, but he does add a bit more punch to any Goblin company he might be attached to. Goblin heroes don't need to be great in combat, as they rely on their weight of numbers and more importantly cunning to achieve their victory. Regardless he can still stand up against many heroes in a duel.

He has a great Might score of 4. Since it seems that Might is priced at about 25 points per point of Might, he has a fair advantage for the points that you pay for Durbūrz already.

Now we get to his "Iron Fist" special rule. This grants Durbūrz the Overlord special rule for Misty Mountain formations (This makes the choice of whether or not to add allies more difficult). So now any Misty Mountain unit within 24" of Durbūrz can use Durbūrz' Might to make a Heroic Action.

Durbūrz Also has the Epic Actions of Epic Strike and Epic Cowardice. Both of which can be quite strong when intelligently used. Epic Strike to making Durbūrz Fight value 10 until the end of the Fight phase and Epic Cowardice allowing Durbūrz the option moving to a new formation within 12" at the start of the fight phase. Basically, if he feels like being a bully in a heroic duel, he can, or he can run with his tail between his legs if he thinks he is going to get smashed by some nasty good guy.


Drūzhag the Beastcaller:
Drūzhag's Courage value is alos quite high for a Goblin. Drūzhag has the "Inspiring Leader (Wargs, Bats, Spiders)" special rule allowing those units to use his Courage value instead of their own. This is where the Synergy between Drūzhag and Durbūrz comes in. Page 69 details the "Inspiring Leader special rule and it states that "All friendly formations of the appropriate race within 12" must use his Courage value if it is higher". That means that since Drūzhag's Courage is now increased to 5, so then is his influence of Inspiring Leader with Wargs, Bats and Spiders is increased accordingly.

Drūzhag also has Resilience value of 3, and like Durbūrz, makes him formidable.

His Fight value of 3 is not going to win him any heroic duels, however.

Drūzhag has a Might value of 3, which is quite healthy, especially for what he is useful for, and that is summoning beasts.

Which brings me to the reason why he is so damned good. His "Summon Beasts" special rule. At the beginning of his Movement phase, he can summon a plethora of beasts types. A formation consisting of up to 3 companies within 12" of his model. The main benefit is that they can act as normal the turn that they are summoned.

He also has the Epic Action of Epic Cowardice. Very helpful for keeping him around to fight in another round if he is hard pressed. As well he should be. The opponent shouldn't suffer him to last long on the table if they are smart.

If all of that wasn't enough, he also has complete access to the Wilderness and Ruin spheres of magic and has a spell mastery of up to 2 spells per turn.

Strategy:
That all said, I now turn to how these all interact deviously with each other.

The Courage value interaction I have covered already, so now comes The Crown of Carn Dūm. But on whose head should this device rest? Well, the Goblin King is the natural choice for such a coronet, but it can be just as wisely placed on Drūzhag. Though since you really wouldn't want Drūzhag to die to an unlucky roll of 3 early on in the game and ruining your plans by doing the enemies job for him, The crown takes its place on the Goblin King.

On Durbūrz, I believe it has the best interaction as it can allow the other Misty Mountain units within 24" to use Durbūrz' Might pool (powered by the Crown) to make any Heroic Actions they may feel that they need (Overlord). This is important because formations summoned by Drūzhag do not come with heroes. Ideally using Heroic Move to position themselves correctly and then and Heroic Fight to really put the hurt on a tough formation of annihilate 2 formations in a turn by essentially getting a guaranteed Earth-shaking Charge (page 50). Its nice to summon more than three formations if Drūzhag wore the Crown, but if you can make those three formations disgustingly good, then thats all you will need.

Building an army around these two Epic Heroes you need to work to their strengths. Drūzhag has an affinity towards the beasts and Durbūrz an affinity towards his Goblin kin. Thus, a two pronged approach to army building may be best. Hammer and Anvil if you will. Largish units of Goblins for the enemy to pour into while you flank him with faster cavalry units of Wargs. Units of Wargs are a great starting point, as their stats are the all around best choice to focus on for default choices of Common formations. Not to mention that they are cheaper to purchase than any other common formation cavalry unit in the Misty Mountain list.
I like to get a decent sized Warg unit of no less than 4 companies strong for Drūzhag to be attached to. This grants him the mobility needed to summon beasts in behind the enemies formation to make best use of the prowler ability of summoned cavalry like Wargs, Giant Spiders and broodling swarms.

But with Drūzhag's awesome special ability comes a great monetary price tag. You may need to buy quite a bit of extra models to accommodate his ability with a pool of choices. Ideally, I would recommend 7-9 companies of Wargs, 9 companies of Giant Spiders, 3 companies of Bat Swarms and 3 companies of Broodling Swarms to cover any potential bases.

If I had to pick only one though, I feel that Wargs would be the best choice for summoned beasts. This is due not only to their Strength Value but their Defense value as well. Wargs are good for making mincemeat pies out of anything with a Defense value of 6 or less, while Giant Spiders are better at higher Defense values. But some people may feel that Defense value on a summoned formation doesn't matter as they didn't really pay for that formation, so Giant Spiders may be more to people's tastes.
I would only summon a Cloud of Bats if I had to stall a flying monster from attacking my rear or flanks.
Broodling Swarms are best summoned if you need to remove pesky archers from somewhere. With their poisoned bite, they can even take on artillery in a pinch.

Try and go second in priority. This way the opponent moves, then you summon a nasty cav unit behind that formation (the target formation now has to take a rear or side attack with your benefit of prowlers) and charge it using a Heroic Fight from Durburz overlord ability.

Durbūrz, Drūzhag & The Crown of Carn Dūm... 220 points of pure awesome.

Some useful army lists to consider:
Misty Mountain lists ranging from 500 - 2500 points (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207031)


.

brimmstorm
28-06-2009, 00:43
Got to my book to answer my own question.

Nice list and nice combo. I'll be sure to try it out when I get my MM army up and running.

-brimmstorm

JackBurton01
04-07-2009, 23:35
I like to ally with agmar and take shades and place them behind my goblins. That way my goblins have the same fight value as whatever Im fighting

Erifnogard
31-07-2009, 19:02
I must say, and I know this isn't strictly related to tactics (at all, actually), but does anyone else find the model for the Dragon a little, well, disapointing? I was hoping it would be, like, HUGE.

I think I am going to use the black dragon figure that was put out for the D&D miniature game a few years ago. It's a bit bigger but more importantly it is in a very dramatic pose. The GW dragon would make a decent cold drake if you leave off the wings I think.