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pkain762
25-04-2009, 04:02
hey fellow warseers,

i need help buiding an orc army.... i want most of my orc and goblins army to consist of orcs.... i love orcs and just want to build a green tide.... maybe a couple of night goblin units for the fanatics, squib hoppers, and casters


what's a good horde orc and goblin army?

any thoughts on the topic would be awesome

kain

rtunian
25-04-2009, 05:31
for inf orcs, you want big anvil blocks of 25 w/ choppa + shield, and smaller hammer blocks of 12-18 w/ 2x choppa. savage orcs are great with shield + spear in counts of 20+. you don't need champs except when in conjunction with characters, but standard and music are good investments for their purposes. the main thing is you need alot of boyz, and try to keep your unit counts so that (count/4) is not a whole number. if you divide your count by four evenly, add 1 more git to the lot. orcs don't have superior as, so you need that panic protection to get across the board and into the combats

if you are going to use ng as fanatic delivery, make them 21s with music only so they get the job done w/o panicking from early shooting.

usually o&g fields 1-2 groups of 5 wolf/spider riders, 2-4 spear chuckas, and either giants, trolls, doom diver, pump wagon, or some combination therof.

the hardest part of the o&g army is "what specials do i want to take besides chuckas?" 2 kinds of chariot, heavy inf, rock lobba and squigs galore make the choice tricky indeed. since you express an interest in hoppers, most take them in lots of 7. they are really all good though. blorcs don't take more than 10-15, give them shields, standard w/ warbanner, musican, but no champ (your chars should be in the inf blocks)

as far as magic goes, ng sham is often fielded with sneaky staff or a pair of scrolls, but i am a big fan of shrooms myself. if you are intending to have a solid magic phase, you need a greater sham (i think usually people take orc for this) and at least a couple of lv. 2's at 2k+, also the right bound items can eat up some dispel dice too (itty ring & skarsnik prodder more or less). both big and little waaagh have useful spells, so its worth it to take both kinds of sham if you are going magic heavy

Shiodome
25-04-2009, 13:06
why do people always recommend units of 7 for squig hoppers? it's qute an awkward number and as you buy them in 2's most people will actually own either 6 or 8.

selone
25-04-2009, 14:07
105 points, is 5+2, need to take 4 casualties to give up any vp's and 7 is the optimal amount if you can get them all alive in base to base with a foe.

Shiodome
25-04-2009, 15:10
ah, doesn't seem terribly important then :P in my experience the squig hoppers are either 1. a target for shooting/magic and all die (or 1-2 reach the enemy lines), or 2. not a target and none die.

something to tale into account though if i ever want to min/max a tourney army :)

pkain762
25-04-2009, 15:59
ok so are black orcs just a giant point sink then? i was thinking like big blocks of black orcs, but do they earn their points?

kain

Emeraldw
25-04-2009, 16:14
Black Orcs to me seem like a great choice for their stats and weapons, plus they don't suffer animosity which seems like a big deal to me.

rtunian
25-04-2009, 16:16
big blocks of blorcs leaves you with very few points elsewhere. you need lots of models and units to do well consistently with o&g, and 2x25 with shields, banner, music is 736... you're cutting yourself off at the knees.

if you skimped on characters and cav and spent most of the rest of your points on 2x choppa boyz (assuming 2k) with a couple chuckas and doom diver support, you could do allright with such a list... but you won't do as well as if you took fewer blorcs and took a more well rounded list

the thing about blorcs is they are good, but not good enough to fire and forget. you have to support them just like you'd have to support any other unit you send into combat. in other words, for the price of one block of blorcs, you can get the 2 units that would be able to support each other; conversely, you'd still have to buy support for the blorcs.

Avian
25-04-2009, 16:24
This should hopefully have something that is useful for you: Orcs & Goblins Tactics page (http://www.avianon.net/subpage.php?s=index_greenskin_tactics)

selone
25-04-2009, 16:27
Great plug avian :) But no, I wouldn't take black orcs, they're very expensive and match up very badly against other peoples elites.

Braad
25-04-2009, 19:48
I swear by black orcs. Its really up to the experiences people got with them.
15 in a block, maybe up to 20 if you like them, should be fine. They don't tend to run, and stick around until most are death. Combined with the banner of butchery they can repel many a charge. With Gork's WAAAGH banner, combined with the WAAAGH move they automatically get when you call for it, you can once add 2D6" to your charge, which is very nice. Without animosity to screw over your plans, you can assign important tasks to them, which is even better.

25 for foot troops of orcs, 30 for gobbo's is what I find useful numbers. Not too much, not too little.

wamphyri101
25-04-2009, 20:48
Sadly in the last 4 games I have played my blocks of 25-30 night goblins have done much better than my black orcs. Could be down to bad luck though.

1st game got “treachery of Tzeentch” against them on an double 6 which killed 9.

2nd game they ran, untouched (20 with shields and banner), from a daemon prince and ran into a unit of 5 knights they were about to charge.

3rd game they got owned by a treeman and 8 dryads

4th game they charged a unit of chaos warriors and used the banner of butchery…and killed 2. Warriors hit back and killed 5. Managed to hold till they got flank charged by unit with great weapons which killed the rest.

Maybe I need to support them more.

pkain762
26-04-2009, 04:07
black orcs are really cool models and the stats and fluff is great.... definately a unit to invest in... but i think one unit is good enough.... that way i can fill out the rest of the points with regular boys and goblins

thanks

kain

Chicago Slim
26-04-2009, 15:32
Okay, first thing you do is get yourself 120 orc boyz models. Split them into four groups (I actually field mine at 28 boyz per unit, but 30's good, too). With full command, that's about 800 points there.

Put a Big Boss or Warboss in each unit-- might as well mount these guys on boars (which is very Napoleonic, really: the Officers mounted, but leading the infantry). If you don't want to worry about animosity, make the characters all Black Orcs. If you think that that'd be cheesy, then make them Orcs. Since you don't have any shamen, you'll want to make sure to have a BSB, with Mork's Spirit Totem. Anyway, the characters will run you 600 points or so.

That leaves about 600 points left. What you've got so far is a good horde: four big blocks, with decent command, who don't do a ton of killing (WS3 S4 on turn 1, WS3 S3 thereafter) but are dead 'ard (T4, 4+ save in HTH to the front) and have good static CR (5 points against most things, since you don't see too many US 30+ units). What you need are flankers. I'm partial to the fast cav: 12-14 ppm, cheap musicians, and very, very good at getting into position (Mv 9 or Mv 7 ignore terrain). I like 4 units of 6, either wolves or spiders or some of each-- they're around 80 points per unit, so call it 300-400 points spent there.

Round out your last 200 points as suits you-- you could easily field 8 bolt throwers, or 3 chariots, or a giant, or a couple of small units of Black Orcs to add some serious killing (because, honestly, WS4 S6 doesn't suck, and neither does WS4 T4 3+ save if you go with shields...) An 8-pack of Black Orcs augmenting your flank attacks can definitely turn the tide of a battle...

There you go, then: 2000 points, well over 150 models. No magic, maybe some shooting if you bring bolt throwers, but mostly focused on straight-up fighting, and winning fights by manuevering to the flanks.

Braad
26-04-2009, 15:55
Sadly in the last 4 games I have played my blocks of 25-30 night goblins have done much better than my black orcs. Could be down to bad luck though.

But imagine what would have happened to the rest if there weren't any black orcs around...

Ofcourse, such things always attract fire, but often don't run as fast from it as the night gobbo's do.

selone
26-04-2009, 19:06
Isn't treason of tzeentch the dice roll- your LD's wounds? Anyways what braad says re unit sizes is pretty much what I go with 25 orcs, 30 gobbo's.

Whislt I don't like black orcs, has anyone tried using a unit of small black orcs like say 12 maybe in a 2x6 formation or similar.

pkain762
26-04-2009, 19:13
Okay, first thing you do is get yourself 120 orc boyz models. Split them into four groups (I actually field mine at 28 boyz per unit, but 30's good, too). With full command, that's about 800 points there.

Put a Big Boss or Warboss in each unit-- might as well mount these guys on boars (which is very Napoleonic, really: the Officers mounted, but leading the infantry). If you don't want to worry about animosity, make the characters all Black Orcs. If you think that that'd be cheesy, then make them Orcs. Since you don't have any shamen, you'll want to make sure to have a BSB, with Mork's Spirit Totem. Anyway, the characters will run you 600 points or so.

That leaves about 600 points left. What you've got so far is a good horde: four big blocks, with decent command, who don't do a ton of killing (WS3 S4 on turn 1, WS3 S3 thereafter) but are dead 'ard (T4, 4+ save in HTH to the front) and have good static CR (5 points against most things, since you don't see too many US 30+ units). What you need are flankers. I'm partial to the fast cav: 12-14 ppm, cheap musicians, and very, very good at getting into position (Mv 9 or Mv 7 ignore terrain). I like 4 units of 6, either wolves or spiders or some of each-- they're around 80 points per unit, so call it 300-400 points spent there.

Round out your last 200 points as suits you-- you could easily field 8 bolt throwers, or 3 chariots, or a giant, or a couple of small units of Black Orcs to add some serious killing (because, honestly, WS4 S6 doesn't suck, and neither does WS4 T4 3+ save if you go with shields...) An 8-pack of Black Orcs augmenting your flank attacks can definitely turn the tide of a battle...

There you go, then: 2000 points, well over 150 models. No magic, maybe some shooting if you bring bolt throwers, but mostly focused on straight-up fighting, and winning fights by manuevering to the flanks.


this is a pretty awesome idea, i think i am going to start building a list like this for my horde... how about replacing a unit with a couple of units of goblins? i don't have the book, but they have to be cheaper.... plus fanatics are cool

kain

samick
26-04-2009, 19:32
Yes, adding 1 or 2 units of 20-25 goblins is a wise investment.They are dirt cheap, supply good SCR and have a decent 5+ save in combat. I run 3 blocks of 25 boyz and 1-2 blocks of 25 goblins with 3 or 4 fanatics between the goblins. That gives 5 nicely sized blocks to hold the enemy line up. I take a unit of spiders to add some fast movement to the army and to march block/flank where I see fit. I then pepper in some fire with 4 spear chukkas and a doom diver. This gives my opponent something to worry about while my foot sloggers make their way up field. And for a nice (but admittingly expensive) hammer unit, taking 5-6 savage orc boar boy big 'uns with banner of butchery can tear anything up with a total of 25-30 attacks at WS4 S5 from the orcs and WS3 S5 from the boars. Taking the morks spirit totem is a must, and I like a level one goblin shaman with 2 scrolls or the staff of sneaky stealing for a well rounded and cheap magic defense. The remaining points can be spent on some fast chariots, or some more flanking units like hoppers or fast cav.

Just my 2 cents :)

Here's a link to roughly the army I run: http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195807

pkain762
26-04-2009, 20:24
it's a good army.... but i have a shooty army, so i just want two-four spear chuckas and have the rest be boyz, Black orcs, goblins, boars, and a giant and chariots.... whatever fits the bill for a horde hand to hand cc army

:)

haha a question in my mind is.... how many orcs can i fit in a 2000 pt list...... i'm guessing a lot :)
kain

samick
26-04-2009, 23:00
Well, not that this is a logical choice at all, but if you just went with a basic orc hero for a general, you would have 1930 points left for orcs. Running them basic with no upgrades, you could get 386 orcs. So what you've gott do is clump them all up in a HUGE deathstar unit of 366, with two supporting units of 10. Hows that for a horde army? :evilgrin:

pkain762
27-04-2009, 00:34
Well, not that this is a logical choice at all, but if you just went with a basic orc hero for a general, you would have 1930 points left for orcs. Running them basic with no upgrades, you could get 386 orcs. So what you've gott do is clump them all up in a HUGE deathstar unit of 366, with two supporting units of 10. Hows that for a horde army? :evilgrin:

it may not be the most logical thing to do, but damn that would be an awesome spectical :)

that is what a green tide is haha

kain

Chicago Slim
27-04-2009, 11:13
this is a pretty awesome idea, i think i am going to start building a list like this for my horde... how about replacing a unit with a couple of units of goblins? i don't have the book, but they have to be cheaper.... plus fanatics are cool

kain

Boyz with shields are 6 ppm. Night goblins are 3 ppm. Fanatics are 25 ppm.

So, 28 Boyz (before command) is 168 points. 28 Night Goblins with 3 fanatics (before command) are 159 points.

You can have 2 units of goblins / night goblins for every unit of Boyz, but you can't have both more goblins AND fanatics...

Anyway, part of my suggestion was to do with running exactly four big blocks for 2000 points-- so that every block has a Big Boss or better leading it. If you want to run more blocks than that, of course, you can-- just be careful that the Warboss is nearest to the unled blocks...

Personally, I prefer the Boyz-- they're Dead 'Ard! That said, I played a game just last week with nary an Orc in it-- just about 300 goblins and 3 trolls...

pkain762
28-04-2009, 03:43
28 boys for 168 is awesome, but that means i gotta buy a lot of orcs hahaha.... i just bought 32 off a guy, and i thought yeah that's a good start to the army, but little did i realize that i amgoing to have somewhere around 200 orcs by the time it's said and done

kain

ghost of scubasteve
30-04-2009, 22:05
rumor has it the next starter kit will be empire vs. orcs with orc models, so you might want to wait for that? ive got 75 orcs now, waiting for it to get more, and its supposed to come with the new orc chariot

Chicago Slim
01-05-2009, 02:50
Or, do what I'm doing: buy up the (40K) Ork half of the 40K box set (you can find them all over eBay, for cheap). Cut off the guns, and replace with shields. viola!

pkain762
01-05-2009, 03:14
eh the current models look pretty good, and as of now i only have 49 orcs, so i'll use what i have and when/if they come out with a new box soon, i'll buy a bunch of those.... but i have no problem with the current models.... they look good.... i love the black orc models too....

get excited

kain

bigunns
01-05-2009, 03:31
i kinda faded the rest after i read sum Blorc comments.... truthfully every1 is right they are a bit overpriced and you really need to use them thoughfully so they can shine... i for one hand love them (i do need more tho) i have a group of 10 atm (which is way too little u need at least 15) but the reason mine are usually the last to die is i opted for my general to be grimgor whch makes them alot better and all my other hero slots really are dedicated to shammies solely for the fact to maybe harass other units if i get a good spell but justly so i can nullify the opponents magic phase (staff of sneaky stealing, dispels, ect....) but all in all i say get your hoppers they move quick maybe a chariot but go with the 2 for 1 chukkas on either flank and a rock lobber or 2 if u decide not to use either the blorcs or chariot.... to just beat on units you cant reach bc siege weaps dont test either..... just dont call for a waagh bc then it screws over that lol