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brizzle_g
26-04-2009, 03:11
A couple of questions that stumped us in a match today.

1. My stardragon charges a unit of spearmen who flee and get caught by the dragon can he then use his breath weapon in the shooting phase? The breath weapon rules say he can use it after marching and as long as he isn't in close combat and the failed charge rules say you can't shoot if you fail a charge but this doesn't seem to be a failed charge since he caught them. So yay or nay?

2. On the standard of balance it says "in addition, they (enemy in base contact) lose hatred and frenzy abilities (in the same way as a unit that has already fought and lost a round of combat). My opponent argued that since dark elves hate high elves in every round of combat that they get to keep their hatred and aren't affected by the banner. Is this valid?

EldarBishop
26-04-2009, 03:42
1. Seems odd, to be allow to shoot after sucessfully charging... though I can't find anything in the rules that prevents it. You didn't fail a charge and you are not in CC.

2. No High Elf armybook here, though if "the enemy unit loses Hatred and Frenzy" that seems pretty straight-forward to me. They should be lost. (... "the same way as a unit that lost combat", which you've quoted above, seems like a "reminder" statement to me).

Nurgling Chieftain
26-04-2009, 04:57
1. There was a recent argument on this very subject. By RaW (rules as written), the Stardragon can breathe just fine, and indeed any missile weapon which can move and fire is not restricted by a successful charge. There are reasonable arguments to the effect that this is a loophole in the rules, but he RaI (rules as intended) can't be proven to any substantial degree one way or the other, so I'd probably go with RaW and let it breathe.

2. I reviewed the rule and I have to agree that they'd get to keep their eternal hatred as the ability is very specific about how it is to be treated.

theunwantedbeing
26-04-2009, 10:51
1. Technically yes.
2. Eternal hatred is still hatred, its just a special kind that has more of an effect against high elves. The standard of balance removes this.

Gazak Blacktoof
26-04-2009, 11:02
2. Yes the dark elves will lose their hatred. Some units will get to keep their frenzy as they do not lose it after having lost a round of combat.

The dark elf hatred is a modified version of hatred, anything removing hatred will also cancel their own special brand of hatred.

Desert Rain
26-04-2009, 17:10
1. You can use the breath weapon since you arn't in close combat nor have you failed a charge.

2. The banner removes hatred, DE's eternal hatred is just a silghtly modified hatred rule but it's still hatred so the'll lose it.

Nurgling Chieftain
26-04-2009, 19:45
Some units will get to keep their frenzy as they do not lose it after having lost a round of combat.Wait, how the heck do you justify THIS while contradicting the other? That's the exact same line of reasoning why the Dark Elves would keep their eternal hatred!

Gazak Blacktoof
26-04-2009, 22:35
Simple.

According to the banner hatred is always lost, there's nothing conditional about it. However, the banner states that frenzy is lost as though the unit had lost a round of combat, sometimes units that are frenzied are allowed to keep their frenzy despite losing combat so these units would be unaffected.

The banner rules don't state, or imply, that if your hatred lasts for more than one round of combat you get to keep it.

Nurgling Chieftain
26-04-2009, 23:46
I see. Your problem can be narrowed down to the fact that you think the item says something completely different from what it actually says. Let's elaborate:
In addition, they also lose hatred and frenzy abilities (in the same way as a unit that has already fought and lost a round of combat).It's perfectly clear just from context that the parenthetical applies to both hatred and frenzy. If you apply it widely, it applies to the whole sentence, and that covers both. If you apply it narrowly then it applies to "abilities", and also covers both. There's no way within the usage of normal English to take that parenthetical and somehow skip the entire substance of the sentence it's tacked onto except for the "frenzy" part.

Furthermore... You lose hatred by having already fought a round of the same combat. You lose frenzy by having lost a round of combat. The vice-versa also applies; you do not lose frenzy from having already fought a round of combat, and you don't lose hatred from having lost a round of combat (although if it's the SAME combat obviously you'll lose it that way). The parenthetical covers both cases.

jaxom
27-04-2009, 00:35
I assume that the "loophole" here is intended to cover things like the Banner of Rage from WoC which gives a unit frenzy which is explicitly not lost if they lose combat?

Nurgling Chieftain
27-04-2009, 01:52
It's hard to say what the "loophole" is intended to cover since it's actually pretty wide-reaching in its implications.

rottahn
27-04-2009, 02:12
i would say that the DE unit loses frenzy and/or hatred, because the banner says so.

Gazak Blacktoof
27-04-2009, 10:11
Fair enough, I'm convinced.

nosferatu1001
27-04-2009, 10:28
If you lose hatred "as if you had fought a round of combat" then eternal hatred, which states you get it every round, would still apply. The reason given for losing the hatred means it doesnt work against DE

And it really shouldnt, fluff wise. a pansy banner isnt going to make them slightly better pals now is it!"

Masque
27-04-2009, 10:37
You lose hatred by having already fought a round of the same combat.

Actually, under normal circumstances, you never lose Hatred; you just only get a benefit from it during the first round of any given combat. Eternal Hatred, on the other hand, gives you a benefit every round (against High Elves). Since simply pretending there has already been a round of combat wouldn't actually remove normal Hatred from a unit we can assume that Hatred is removed despite this otherwise it wouldn't be mentioned at all. Thus, Eternal Hatred would be removed too.

In conclusion, I agree with your ruling but not with how you arrived at it.

To continue the question, would the enemy unit regain Hatred, Eternal Hatred, or Frenzy if it manages to kill the model carrying the standard, break the High Elf unit, or flee and subsequently rally? I'm leaning towards no.