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View Full Version : Hydra Flak Tank - Worth it?



Wildeyedjester
26-04-2009, 19:36
I am thinking that for my tournament lists I would like to include a pair of Hydra Flak Tanks. I am just not so sure that they are worth the price I would have to pay from Forge World to get them here.

As I see it the Hydra would add an element of anti - light tank to my list. It seems like it would also be pretty decent against monstrous creatures.

What I would like to know is how is this tank faring in your playtests. Is it worth me shelling out the cash for a pair of them? Is it worth taking a pair of these in place of the standard Leman Russ I could field in their place? What are your thoughts?

Thanks!

laudarkul
26-04-2009, 20:34
I did not play yet a game with the new IG codex...But after reading the codex I definetly going to try a list with a Hydra and the same list with Griffon instead...
Hydra is perfect (beside beeing an awesome model IMHO) with her's 2 Twin-linked AC and that means 4 Str7 Ap4 shots which are good against light vehicles/MC's/those pesky cover saves (Eldars or Ork/SMBiker's).
Sorry if I can't give you a final answer, but at least one model I'll buy it :) in a couple of months (when my game club it's going to make an offer to FW)...If it's worth then another will be welcome.

MrBims
26-04-2009, 20:52
Keep in mind that all MCs are still going to get their armor saves against AP4, and that the anti-cover-save system only works against skimmers moving Flat Out and bikes/jetbikes Turboboosting; Ork Bikers and Nob Bikers will still get their 4+ cover save.

Honestly, the Hydra isn't all that great in my opinion, unless you know you're going to be facing an Ork dreadmob list, or you're going to be playing on a very large table. The chief advantage it has over other, higher-strength anti-vehicle weapons is its 72" range, and the fact that it is 4 shots, twinlinked. The first advantage is negated if you're playing on a 6x4 or 4x4 table, and the second means its useful against low AV vehicle squadrons, of which there relatively few in the game. Being able to negate cover saves on Eldar skimmers doesn't mean a darn thing when you are rarely ever going to scratch AV12 with S7 anyway. Unless you're shooting at AV10 or AV11 squadrons, the Hydra is better served shooting at Sv4+ infantry, but you're probably going to get more hits if you use the equally costed Griffon.

Eldoriath
26-04-2009, 21:02
I don't agree Bims, i know from experience in my tau army how usefull S7 is against up to AV12. Sure, it isn't reliable for killing it in one turn, but figure out the avarage and you get one penetrating and one glancing hit with two hydras against one AV12 vehicle. Also excellent for surekilling transports such as the trukk and rhino. I can see a use for them, but im not sure i will play them. I might try them in the future. I plan on buying 4 chimeras which i will outfit so that i can make them into 2 griffons and 2 colossus if i want, perhaps i will make an hydra add-on as well since it's quite cheap. I get versatility in vehicles to use, although the numbers will be limited.

Brother Gabriel
26-04-2009, 21:14
I will be using them a lot in my Guard army. But i will use WWII Flak Tanks to represent them. Dont want to spend so much on the FW ones.
And i think they are worth it because Eldar play a lot of Skimmers and other Guard with Vendettas. Oh and dont forget all the Rhinos and Chimeras and stuff as well. Hydras are really a usefull addition to any allcomers army imo.

Joewrightgm
26-04-2009, 21:40
Well, it depends. Do you want a model that can help death with oft-times bothersome skimmers and bikes?

Depends on what your local scene is like. If you have a lot of players that use bikers or skimmers, then it may be a worth-while buy for you. If you tailor your lists to opponents, then it is probably worth having, but if you don't consider how the model will work with the rest of your force when it doesn't have any skimmers/bikers to sling lead at.

Shangrila
26-04-2009, 21:50
I like my Leman Russ exterminator, little more expensive but a pair of hydras in a squadron will die easier.

Johnnyfrej
26-04-2009, 22:29
I think game-wise they are worth it (cost for FW ones limits me to the one I have now until a plastic is released). A squad of 2 will send out 8 TL-Autocannon shots and 6 HB rounds a turn. Even an Eldar tank with Holofields will feel the hurt pretty fast. Then you have Vyper and War Walker squads who are even easier to kill.

True the Eldar do have very good anti-tank. However, if you field more tanks than they could possibly kill in one turn then you have forced the Eldar player to pick his targets. Since most Eldar AT fire is from Lances they will most likely target your Russ's and Valkyries, leaving the Hydras unharmed. OR, he will focus on the Hydras and allow your other tanks to fire at will.

I can easily see myself taking a squadron of 2 in the future. There isn't an army in 40k that the Hydra doesn't have something it is good against.

xinsanityx
26-04-2009, 22:42
I honestly only think they're worth it if you take a squadron of 3 and you have at least 6 armour 12 (or better)tanks on the board. One just isn't a big threat. I'm of the opinion that if you take 1 armour 12 tank, you should take at least 6 minimum and I'd probably take at least 8 or 9. They don't have to all be one variety. For instance, I think 3 hydras, 3 basilisks, and 3 hell hounds would be an awesome combination, and would be incredibly hard for most armies to deal with.

In 5th edition armour 12 is difficult to kill (especially when there are 9 pieces of armour 12 and 140+ guardsmen) unless you get a close up shot with a melta.

Badger[Fr]
26-04-2009, 22:49
Hydras are well worth their points, but considering how cheap Autocanons are in infantry squads, I would rather field other HS choices. As usual, it depends on your army list: if you lack heavy weapons, yes, it's a good choice.

Gimp
26-04-2009, 22:52
Hmmmm

Well not the best to be honest but I love the models and love the fluff so you can bet I would have some (if I played IG :rolleyes:)

However they are easy to kill so would be best to take some if only you have a lot of other tanks (russ patterns) to take the damage. While at the same time the Hydra can dish some out.

Ubermensch Commander
26-04-2009, 23:26
The Hydras rules are sadly fairly useless. Decent against fast moving skimmers but they do not do anything worthwhile to any bikes save DE bikes. Every other biker has a 3+ save or in the case of Nobz that accursed 4+ cover save.

decker_cky
26-04-2009, 23:31
They're amazing. You don't generally take them for infantry....they're there to target AV10, 11 and 12 vehicles, and they're great at that (as autocannons generally are). They shoot better than an autocannon heavy weapon team, and have a ridiculously long range (will come into play now and then) and are great against skimmers and a few bikers (this one won't come up too often). I don't think they're underpriced considering all the competing heavy support choices, but they're still a very good choice. And I'd take them in squads of two so you can get a save by having 1 of them obscured.

Are they worthwhile for their dollar cost? Probably not at this point unless you really like the models.

O&G'sRule
26-04-2009, 23:47
Hydras are great vs eldar

ehlijen
26-04-2009, 23:49
If you can pry yourself away from all the fun ordnance choices, I guess they're not bad. But I can't so russes it is for me...

Nachturne
26-04-2009, 23:51
The Hydras rules are sadly fairly useless. Decent against fast moving skimmers but they do not do anything worthwhile to any bikes save DE bikes. Every other biker has a 3+ save or in the case of Nobz that accursed 4+ cover save.

I just want to say I give DE bikes a 3+ cover save with the turbo booster rules. I know the codex says 4+ but the codex is also over 10 years old and in the 5th edition rule book it says 3+ cover save for bikes with turbo boosters that move over 18" and the description of the reaver cleary states that they have turbo boosters.

As for the hydra thing. I agree with whats been said about how it really depends on the size of the battlefield because 72" means nothing if your first round of shooting is at 48" or less. I would just take the tried and true russ.

xinsanityx
27-04-2009, 00:07
The Hydras rules are sadly fairly useless. Decent against fast moving skimmers but they do not do anything worthwhile to any bikes save DE bikes. Every other biker has a 3+ save or in the case of Nobz that accursed 4+ cover save.

I think a squad of 3 is actually pretty decent against bikes. They'll kill 3 space marine bikes in 1 round of shooting, that's pretty decent considering bikes are usually around 30 points a piece. Even against nob bikers they should cause about 2 wounds, depending on whether the nobs turboboosted or not

They're definately there to bust low armour, but if there are no low armour targets they aren't bad at popping heavy infantry and bikes. They'll kill 2 terminators in 1 volley (well 1.75 so they'll kill 2 more often than they kill 1). Don't forget they have heavy bolters too. The hydra is very versatile for it's cheap points cost. It is rather expensive money wise though.

T_55
27-04-2009, 00:13
In my opinion, their only worth it if you take 9!

Otherwise the volume of fire is insufficient.

Wildeyedjester
27-04-2009, 00:27
This is the armor mix I am thinking about in my 1850 list:

Executioner, plas sponsons, h bolter
leman russ,h bolter
vendetta
Vendetta
Chimera
devil dog
basilisk
2 hydra flak tanks

I was fielding another russ, but it seems like it is over kill on templates, and in the few games I have played I have needed more dakka. Hence the thoughts about the 2 hydras.

ehlijen
27-04-2009, 01:02
Nachturne: If your opponents are fine with that, groovy (I probably would be). But without an ok from them that's technically cheating as a codex overrides the rulebook no matter how old it is.

Jackmojo
27-04-2009, 02:09
I'm pretty disappointed in the Hydra as well, 75 points for 3 autocannon hits a turn on average(even with the extended range) is not very impressive. Adds 1.5 HB hits once they get close, but then the range is not helping anymore.

I feel I'd like it a bit mroe if it were a blanket ignores cover weapon.

Jack

acsmedic
27-04-2009, 02:18
I like the rules for th Hydra, From a cost stand point though FW or wait for plastics? I thought I saw some plastic hydra emplacements in the upcoming planetstrike terrain. Could be some easy chimera, bassie conversion

http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=57073&d=1240222103

FashaTheDog
27-04-2009, 02:26
The Hydra is a great way to down Night Shield equipped Ravagers and Raiders as the extended range matters on a standard table ensuring that you are never out of range, something that can often happen on turn one with 48" (42") range weapons. The vehicle also has the cool looks of the Forgeworld mini going for it, which for me is a big selling point.

Nachturne
27-04-2009, 03:08
Nachturne: If your opponents are fine with that, groovy (I probably would be). But without an ok from them that's technically cheating as a codex overrides the rulebook no matter how old it is.

Really? I would of thought what ever publication is newer would be the rule you would go off of. But you probably know a lot more on the subject then me. I will keep that in mind incase it ever comes up again. Thanks for the info.

Johnnyfrej
27-04-2009, 04:23
In my opinion, their only worth it if you take 9!

Otherwise the volume of fire is insufficient.
Yes against Eldar you might do well. Then my GK's show up with 3 Land Raiders in a 2k list and your Hydras don't do squat :rolleyes:

You can have all the Autocannons in the world but it won't save you from Armor 14.

And as for all these "Why take a Hydra when you have all those Russ's?" You can take 3 Hydras for under the cost of a Leman Russ Executioner w/ Sponsons. All it takes is one lucky ML or Lascannon to either kill that Russ or make it useless for a turn, but one HW can never handicap a squad of 3 Hydras.

Wildeyedjester
27-04-2009, 04:30
Yes against Eldar you might do well. Then my GK's show up with 3 Land Raiders in a 2k list and your Hydras don't do squat :rolleyes:

You can have all the Autocannons in the world but it won't save you from Armor 14.

And as for all these "Why take a Hydra when you have all those Russ's?" You can take 3 Hydras for under the cost of a Leman Russ Executioner w/ Sponsons. All it takes is one lucky ML or Lascannon to either kill that Russ or make it useless for a turn, but one HW can never handicap a squad of 3 Hydras.

I agree. I try to make all comers lists, and I have melta options for AV 14, along w/ lascannon if worse comes to worst. I don't think hydra spam would make for a good all comers list, but I don't think being able to throw 8 twinlinked shots would be bad to at least threaten things like dreds, chimeras, rhinos, MC's, and etc.

It seems like the responses thus far have been split though pro or con, and most seem to be math hammering. I guess folks just haven't had the opportunity to proxy/test these out properly yet?

StormWulfen
27-04-2009, 06:44
Being able to negate cover saves on Eldar skimmers doesn't mean a darn thing when you are rarely ever going to scratch AV12 with S7 anyway.


its the the same as using a lascannon on AV14:eyebrows:
if you take one it would be for infantry and light vehicles only so make sure you have some heavy firepower as well (wich won't be a problem with gaurd:p)

laudarkul
27-04-2009, 07:31
4 shots Str7 Ap4 twin-linked against an eldar bike or transport/ ork biker (so no more 3+cover save only 4+)/MC's (coupled with the HB hull) seems a good choice for a tournament list (if you face also nid's, orks, IG or SM).If you can have 2 as a Squadron for 150(+camo-netting ) I think that you give the enemy a good point to focus instead of tanks (8 twin-linked Str7 Ap4 and 6 Str5 Ap4) because with some luck you can knock off a MC's per turn.

T_55
27-04-2009, 08:19
Yes against Eldar you might do well. Then my GK's show up with 3 Land Raiders in a 2k list and your Hydras don't do squat :rolleyes:

You can have all the Autocannons in the world but it won't save you from Armor 14.

And as for all these "Why take a Hydra when you have all those Russ's?" You can take 3 Hydras for under the cost of a Leman Russ Executioner w/ Sponsons. All it takes is one lucky ML or Lascannon to either kill that Russ or make it useless for a turn, but one HW can never handicap a squad of 3 Hydras.

Pfft, because like, obviously, you have 'nothing' else in your army at 2000 points :rolleyes:

USER1
27-04-2009, 11:33
I play mech eldar with 6 skimmers and some jetbikes and I played against a list with 2 units of 2 hydras.
They were not impressive. I managed to get cover saves from terrain on my skimmers a lot anyway and I had 2 serpents carrying fire dragons, each of wich made it to a hydra unit and smoked them all. S7 is not much good against AV 12.

xinsanityx
27-04-2009, 11:36
Yes against Eldar you might do well. Then my GK's show up with 3 Land Raiders in a 2k list and your Hydras don't do squat :rolleyes:

You can have all the Autocannons in the world but it won't save you from Armor 14.

And as for all these "Why take a Hydra when you have all those Russ's?" You can take 3 Hydras for under the cost of a Leman Russ Executioner w/ Sponsons. All it takes is one lucky ML or Lascannon to either kill that Russ or make it useless for a turn, but one HW can never handicap a squad of 3 Hydras.

The 9 hydras are only 675 points. If you're playing 1750 that still leaves over 1000 points to jam in as many lascanons and melta weapons as possible, and that's alot of las and melta. Off the top of my head I know it would be over 10 lascanons and 10 meltas, some of which can be twin linked with orders. Your GK's would also have to get out of the land raiders at some point, and once they get out what will they do? Kill 3-4 guard squads and then die. Your 3 landraider GK list would most likely get wrecked.

I actually think 9 hydras would be very hard for a lot of armies. To say 9 hydras suck is like saying 45 lootas suck. The two choices are identicle and i think the hydras would actually be better.

I personally think a mix of different kinds of armour 12 tanks would be better than 9 hydras, but 9 hydras would still crush most other armies.

SylverClaw
27-04-2009, 11:40
The 9 hydras are only 675 points. If you're playing 1750 that still leaves over 1000 points to jam in as many lascanons and melta weapons as possible, and that's alot of las and melta. I actually think 9 hydras would be very hard for a lot of armies. To say 9 hydras suck is like saying 45 lootas suck. The two choices are identicle and i think the hydras would actually be better.

Mmm... 9 Hydras. That's brilliant.

Thank you for that. That's going on my to-do list right after the 9 Griffon list.

9 Hydras + 3 to 6 Valks/Vends (at 2000)... themed and super-sexy killy? That list would be troop light but really annoying to fight.

Now to find some money for all this...

xinsanityx
27-04-2009, 11:53
I play mech eldar with 6 skimmers and some jetbikes and I played against a list with 2 units of 2 hydras.
They were not impressive. I managed to get cover saves from terrain on my skimmers a lot anyway and I had 2 serpents carrying fire dragons, each of wich made it to a hydra unit and smoked them all. S7 is not much good against AV 12.

You're either playing cover saves for vehicles the wrong way, or you're playing with way too much LOS blocking terrain. If you have 6 tanks on the board there is no way they should all be getting cover saves from terrain.

Fire dragons also should never make it to the hydras. If your opponent was smart he would have had squads of guard in front of the hydras to stop the fire dragons from getting close. That's rule number 1 when playing against melta guns, if you have infantry (especially cheap expendable infantry like guard) you put them between the enemies melta guns and your tanks.