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sandersn
27-04-2009, 13:54
We played a few games and decided that we don't like how dueling works. I know that many people are ok with the current system and this isn't a post to complain. This was just our very simple fix to prevent a "super dueler" from doing a inordinately large amount of casualties in a duel.

We've decided to roll the dice one at a time, just like you would on the hard to kill tables. When the hero you are dueling is dead, stop rolling dice.

It won't make a huge difference, but it might be enough to tone down some of the Epic Strike/Heroic Duel stuff.

(And please don't bring up the Heroic Fight/Heroic Duel timing issue in this thread. It's not the place for it.)

dtjunkie19
27-04-2009, 17:34
That's not a bad house rule, I would play by it. However it makes 2's and 3's the best roll rather than 4,5 or 6's.

jaws900
27-04-2009, 19:40
Now i don't play WOTR much (I prefure SBG) but i think that if a hero would dule another they would often try to retreat before they die rahter than fight to the death. Look at "the history of the 3 kindoms" as an example as most dules that took place only about 505% ended with 1 or more dead. I find the current rules ok as it means that there is a chance of suvival which this house rule does not allow.

Jorgen_CAB
27-04-2009, 19:59
Now i don't play WOTR much (I prefure SBG) but i think that if a hero would dule another they would often try to retreat before they die rahter than fight to the death. Look at "the history of the 3 kindoms" as an example as most dules that took place only about 505% ended with 1 or more dead. I find the current rules ok as it means that there is a chance of suvival which this house rule does not allow.

I really don't see how his suggested house rule would increase the chances of a hero to actually die. His rule only reduce the amount of other models that might die in a duel, that is all.

As I have said in other threads I'm a bit ambivalent about the dueling rules myself and i really don't see the logic in that you kill extra troops because you are dueling another hero when the hero can't do the same when there are no hero to duel?!?!?
I would like to have some consistency with the rules. You should be able to duel a unit whether there is a hero or not if you run with the current system.

Anyway, I really think that Heroes effect combat pretty well already with Heroic Charges/Fight/Move and Shoot, not to mention all the Epic actions they can use.

In my opinion a duel should simply be a duel, collateral damage should be very minor. certain Epic heroes, such as Sauron could have a special Epic Duel where he strike troops as well as heroes, but not ordinary heroes. All other casualties are accounted for by their increased skill in the regular fight and by the use of Epic/Heroic Actions.

All in all I think that the house rule would work... but it will certainly change some tactics and will also impact the importance of certain high fight valued characters that rely on making duels part of their tactics to beat units in combat.
It will also diminish the use of Duel and the Might point spent are worth less.

Sarah S
27-04-2009, 20:15
I like duels the way they are.

Avatar of the Eldar
27-04-2009, 22:36
Great minds think alike...

Just this morning I had come to a similar conclusion to post a very similar idea. To my mind, the spirit of the rule Epic Duel is intended to be character on character not a character on formation buzz-saw. (That's the meaning of a du-el.)

Similarly, I'm proposing a house rule to my group that Epic Heroes cannot challenge formation captains. The reasoning is that it's not "epic", it's an over-matched beat-down. Again, to my mind, "epic" duels are between "epic" heroes. If they're up for it, I'll keep you posted how it impacts game play.

Sarah S
27-04-2009, 23:32
But (with only a couple of exceptions) they aren't even called Epic Duels, they're just Heroic Duels...

sandersn
28-04-2009, 02:14
I like duels the way they are.

Then I guess we are tied... one vote for leaving them like they are, and my vote for my house rule.

What happens on the internet when there's a tie? ;)

SIDENOTE: Just in case we just the standard GW rules for disagreements and we dice off for it... I rolled a 6. And, just in case you roll and also get a 6, I rolled again and rolled another 6. In fact, just to be safe, I rolled 3 more times and got 6s each time. I didn't roll any more because I thought "What are the chances of someone else also getting 5 straight 6s?"

Honestly, I know people (like yourself) are happy with how it is. I was just throwing this out there as an idea for certain groups who aren't happy with it. We don't play in tournaments (and since there are so many holes in the rules, I don't see how people can play in them) and we found something we didn't like so we changed it.

Jorgen_CAB
28-04-2009, 05:37
Great minds think alike...

Just this morning I had come to a similar conclusion to post a very similar idea. To my mind, the spirit of the rule Epic Duel is intended to be character on character not a character on formation buzz-saw. (That's the meaning of a du-el.)

Similarly, I'm proposing a house rule to my group that Epic Heroes cannot challenge formation captains. The reasoning is that it's not "epic", it's an over-matched beat-down. Again, to my mind, "epic" duels are between "epic" heroes. If they're up for it, I'll keep you posted how it impacts game play.

I've had a similar thought... Epic Heroes should only be able to duel other epic heroes. Though, Heroes should be able to duel Epic ones if they wish to. The problem you get is when you look at monsters with Might... do you deem them as Epic... and which monsters are Epic (above 200p)?

Heroes should be able to duel each other as well...

Sarah S
28-04-2009, 05:45
But that's not fair to all the regular heroes! How do you think a normal Hero gets to become an Epic Hero? By miraculously knocking off an Epic Hero, that's how!

Lurtz would have been just another Uruk-hai Scout Captain if he wouldn't have killed Boromir after all!
;)

Avatar of the Eldar
28-04-2009, 07:28
But that's not fair to all the regular heroes! How do you think a normal Hero gets to become an Epic Hero? By miraculously knocking off an Epic Hero, that's how!

Lurtz would have been just another Uruk-hai Scout Captain if he wouldn't have killed Boromir after all!
;)

Yeah and he was "epic" for all of about 10 minutes until Aragorn dismembered him. :)

Sarah S
28-04-2009, 07:32
Lurtz had obviously spent all his might on his duel with Boromir.

Avatar of the Eldar
28-04-2009, 16:15
Lurtz had obviously spent all his might on his duel with Boromir.

Well played, Sarah. Well, played. :p

Lord Asuryan
28-04-2009, 21:23
I SOMEWHAT agree.
duels do a little too much collateral damage.
but, I think this is being blown out of proportion. the cheapest 'dueling hero' that I know of is Imrahil, with 7 fight. while other cheaper heroes can epic strike, I'm not considering those at this point, that's another argument.

now, imrahil costs more than twice what a captain costs. he deserves to win in most scenarios. why? because other than dueling ability, he adds little more to a unit than a regular captain.

If imrahil calls a duel, odds are he wins by 4 (against gondor captain.) this results, most likely, in the captain's death, and 2d3 hits on the unit. the company he is hitting likely doesn't cost more than 50 points. Even with above average luck, he's not doing that many points worth of damage.

however, It is slightly unrealistic to have heroes scything through enemy units while dueling, so I propose one (or all!) of the following fixes:

1. heroes that duel in a combat may not provide fight bonuses to their unit. considering the fight bonus represents the heroes' attacks, and he is already fighting a enemy hero, well...

2. reduce 'd3' on the dueling table to 'one' hit on units. it's plausible that a few random orcs might get caught up in the fighting, I suppose, but whole COMPANIES?

3 have some way to allow heroes to decline duels, at the cost of might, representing them 'chickening out' 'strategically withdrawing' etc. in this case, challenging hero expends no might. alternatively, allow 'will of iron-esque' rolls against duels.

3. in addition to, or instead of, allow heroes to expend one might in combat, to roll a d6. on a 1, they do nothing. on a 4-5, they inflict d3 hits on the unit. on a 6, they inflict 2d3 hits on the unit. this would help to stop people from neglecting captains, reasoning that all they do is open one up to massively mismatched heroic duels (as some heroes are, are not achieving their value in points when not dueling (see imrahil-3-4 extra attacks a turn isn't worth 125 points!)

Jorgen_CAB
28-04-2009, 21:53
I SOMEWHAT agree.
duels do a little too much collateral damage.
but, I think this is being blown out of proportion. the cheapest 'dueling hero' that I know of is Imrahil, with 7 fight. while other cheaper heroes can epic strike, I'm not considering those at this point, that's another argument.

now, imrahil costs more than twice what a captain costs. he deserves to win in most scenarios. why? because other than dueling ability, he adds little more to a unit than a regular captain.

If imrahil calls a duel, odds are he wins by 4 (against gondor captain.) this results, most likely, in the captain's death, and 2d3 hits on the unit. the company he is hitting likely doesn't cost more than 50 points. Even with above average luck, he's not doing that many points worth of damage.

however, It is slightly unrealistic to have heroes scything through enemy units while dueling, so I propose one (or all!) of the following fixes:

1. heroes that duel in a combat may not provide fight bonuses to their unit. considering the fight bonus represents the heroes' attacks, and he is already fighting a enemy hero, well...

2. reduce 'd3' on the dueling table to 'one' hit on units. it's plausible that a few random orcs might get caught up in the fighting, I suppose, but whole COMPANIES?

3 have some way to allow heroes to decline duels, at the cost of might, representing them 'chickening out' 'strategically withdrawing' etc. in this case, challenging hero expends no might. alternatively, allow 'will of iron-esque' rolls against duels.

3. in addition to, or instead of, allow heroes to expend one might in combat, to roll a d6. on a 1, they do nothing. on a 4-5, they inflict d3 hits on the unit. on a 6, they inflict 2d3 hits on the unit. this would help to stop people from neglecting captains, reasoning that all they do is open one up to massively mismatched heroic duels (as some heroes are, are not achieving their value in points when not dueling (see imrahil-3-4 extra attacks a turn isn't worth 125 points!)

Well, you should consider that Prince Imrahil has a few other Epic action that he can perform that an ordinary Captain can't so I do think that his points are justified. He basically pays 25p for an extra Might point and another 50p for 'Inspiring Leader', Epic Challenge, Epic Strike and Epic Charge.

Though I do agree with you that duels should be duels nothing more. Heroes lend their fight skill to their company and provide leadership and Might to the unit, as well as 'On the Double!'. They don't need to kill extra models in duels because that can produce strange results, such as killing a low fight hero to rack up some extra kills. Even though they usually don't kill that many it still is strange that they will kill as many defense 8 dwarves as they do defense 3 orcs.

sandersn
29-04-2009, 12:50
A quick question related to this, and it should be an easy one:

Do casualties caused by a duel count towards who won the fight?

I say no (because it's the duel, not the fight) but my friend argues otherwise. Anyone have a definitive rules reference?

Jorgen_CAB
29-04-2009, 14:02
The duel is fought as part of the fight and it does count against the total casualties for that turn. At least that seems to be the common consensus.