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Killingspree
27-04-2009, 22:00
Possibly one of the most irritating things for me to hear is that someone will simply pack up their stuff because their opponent has found a "loophole" or some other "trick." Does no one enjoy a challenge anymore? I understand that somethings are just ridiculously overpowering and when it happens well.... let's just say you're screwed side ways with a chain saw but still.... Where is the feeling of "Damn that is just wrong!! But I can still whoop your a$$!"
For instance, I just played a game the other day where it was me IG and another opponent who was also IG (sounds boring but was one of the nastiest slug fests I've played in a while). He used that damned GKT in a Valkyrie loophole. I still managed to beat the ceramite stuffing out of those little fanatical bastards.
I know the first argument is going to be "Well it isn't fair so why bother playing x list when you can play push button trick list?" And my counter point is, show me one trick/loophole that can't be countered/isn't a glass cannon/or doesn't have a huge drawback.
I just really wish people would stop jumping to conclusions so fast when they see a nasty trick (or codex trumping brb in most cases) and instead set emotion aside and go "Okay, I know this is coming what I can I do stop or make it hurt less" and then go from there. I understand that for campaigns or FW stuff, houserules must be set (the pts price for FW stuff i swear is for a different game) but in simply regular play and especially in tournament play, where is the "Never say Die" spirit?
Has anyone else felt this way?
Has anyone else seen this?
And since I know you guys are going to bring the heavy flamers at me, go ahead. Unlike most people I see arguing on these forums I really don't mind. Bring it.


K/S

Chaos and Evil
27-04-2009, 22:11
He used that damned GKT in a Valkyrie loophole.

He had what in a Valkyrie?

Kurisu313
27-04-2009, 22:19
Grey Knight Terminators

Killingspree
27-04-2009, 22:23
He had two units of Grey Knight Termies in Two valks (1st Sword Wing as he called it) then he had Two regular grey knight units in Valks (2nd Sword Wing as he called it). With scout move AND him getting first turn he got 4 assaults off. (Luckily I deployed so that only my one 20 man unit was in front and his clever moving only got him to be able to assault two units max). Needless to say I got punched in the face on the very first ******* turn.

K/S

Killingspree
27-04-2009, 22:23
ahhh Kurisu you just beat me to it! Damn.


K/S

Cane
27-04-2009, 22:46
Eh, I could care less for cheese and loopholes as long as its still a fun game. However being an IG player myself, being assaulted on the first turn just doesn't seem right.

One of the guys who got me into 40k only had fun if he won and it showed in his crappy quality paintjobs and attitude but at the same time had so much of an ego that he'd rarely play a 1v1 game...guess he needed a teammate as a crutch to fall back on if he lost.

As long as my opponent ins't a douche bag its all good.

kane40k
27-04-2009, 22:47
heeeey i wanna no how you "beat the ceramite stuffing out of those little fanatical bastards" :D please tell?

an yeh all the time i see people do it at our club, but they tend to be the younger ones usualy! or the real serious ones.. alot our us are just their for the laughs and the social side of it tbh :D

Chaos and Evil
27-04-2009, 22:51
Grey Knight Terminators

Oh, that's cheating, of course. :rolleyes:

RevenantX
27-04-2009, 23:38
Can you even start the game with those guys loaded up? I'm pretty sure you can't buy a Valkyrie as a dedicated transport for the Grey Knights.

dugaal
27-04-2009, 23:46
Valks aren't dedicated to anything; bought in FA slots and you can embark any eligible unit, including allies, at deployment.

KingDeath
27-04-2009, 23:54
I could be wrong but arent Grey Knights unable to take a transport choice unless it is a dedicated one?

Inquisitor_Tolheim
28-04-2009, 00:04
I could be wrong but arent Grey Knights unable to take a transport choice unless it is a dedicated one?

Nah, otherwise they would be unable to ride in their own Land Raiders.

The rule is that they cannot use the dedicated transports of other units in their codex, unlike in newer codices where dedicated transports can be loaded up with units they were not purchased for later in the game. Basically you can't put a squad of Grey Knights into the Rhino of an Imperial Stormtrooper squad, but can put them into all purpose transports like land raiders or Valkyries.

I'm betting that particular trick will get FAQed out of existence, or be obliterated with the allies rules whenever a new Daemonhunters codex comes out. It's a shame because even though it's a hard combination to counter it is also a clever use of the rules.

ehlijen
28-04-2009, 00:20
I find that if an opponent is more concerned with finding such loopholes and tricks rather than thinking about whether they are going to make for fun games, he is not going to be a fun opponent to play against.

I would never begrudge someone the right to not continue a game they are not enjoying. There is better things to do with your time than pander to the desires of someone not caring if they are annoying/boring/angering you.

Granted, the specific example would not set me off like that on its own, but if it was an example of what a player is like in general, I just don't see what I have to gain from continuing the game.

A game is meant to be a shared experience of fun between all players. If the players are trying to have fun 'against' each other rather than with each other, the goal of the game is lost and the game becomes worthless as a social endeavour, which is all it's really meant to be.

Killingspree
28-04-2009, 00:21
heeeey i wanna no how you "beat the ceramite stuffing out of those little fanatical bastards" :D please tell?


Well two demolishers (that his valks failed to tag) welcomed the termies with opening arms! One blew apart a unit down to one termie while the other brought its target down to two (one hit the other scattered two inches but still got quite a few!)

This then allowed my units to First Rank Fire into the termies and grey knights. Termies went down right away but the Power armoured grey knights stuck around for a bit. Essentially the grey knights were his spearhead for the armoured guard coming from his lines. Against any other army I am quite sure the tactic would carry the day without some real quick thinking but large guard units are actually pretty resilient.

By third turn my side of no man's land was literally one HUGE fire fight! All the units firing were about 1-7 inches away from their targets. IT was sooooo ******* cool. Awesome game!

K/S

Killingspree
28-04-2009, 00:31
Ehlijen, I understand what you are saying and I slightly agree but I think you are missing a fundamental concept of gaming. In a game there is a winner and a loser, (Ties too!). You play the game because you enjoy the competition and it is this atmosphere that creates excitement. No one would watch sports if both teams won would they? Why? No one loses(and abstractly, no one wins)! After a game both players should walk away going "DAMN!" The fun should be had in trying to better one's self even in the face of adversity (adversity being these little tricks).
I do agree though that you MUST walk away from a game happy. I just think that the only person that can make you feel unhappy about a game is you. If you are facing an opponent who is only concerned with loopholes and arguing every game rule, relax and realize that he is doing what he fines exciting and with this knowledge CHALLENGE HIM! Flex your knowledge and tactical might to its limits. If you truly enjoy the game you will find that the game will be far more fun.

As a side note though, cheating is something different and completely breaches the idea of gaming and competition essentially because cheating does not follow within the rules so one cannot be aware of the possibility before hand.

I wish the gaming mind behind Warmachine was the gaming mind for Warhammer.


K/S

zeep
28-04-2009, 00:44
I could be wrong but arent Grey Knights unable to take a transport choice unless it is a dedicated one?

More importantly how are they disembarking in the scout move? Disembarking/embarking is the units move, not the vehicles. Only a dedicated transport gives the scout USR to its occupents.

ehlijen
28-04-2009, 00:57
Maybe we're just talking about different degrees of annoyance, Spree. I will try my best to make any game fun (for both players, though wether I succeed is of course for them to decide) but if I get the impression that my opponent simply does not care if I have fun (by which I'm implying he tries to have fun at my expense), I just don't see how the game will be worth my time.

It takes a lot to get me to that level, but if I'm there I'll leave.

I agree, the game is about competing. I see it as the duty of each player to challenge the other to ensure a close game (close games are the most fun as the winner is often only decided at the last moment). But I also see a difference between providing a challenge and trying to bludgeon your opponent with a loophole. If he has fun but I don't, then I'm really just wasting time pushing toy soldiers around. As much as I like toy soldiers, there are better things to do.

As for the GKT trick, here is how it works:
Scout turbo to withing 13"
begin first turn
disembark to within 11.1"-base width
move 6"
assault 6"
Jumping out of a transport before it moved means you still get to move and charge that turn regardless of how thick the transports roof is.
(I'm not saying this should be done. I'm against the concept of 1st turn charges. But this is the currently legal way to do it :()

Killingspree
28-04-2009, 00:57
In my game he didn't jump out in the scout move, he did it in his first turn. The sucker seized the initiative on me and boy did it hurt!

K/S

Sarigar
28-04-2009, 01:07
Can you relay your interpretation of 'loophole'. I think a lot of issues can be avoided if we are all working on the same perception of the key term.

Killingspree
28-04-2009, 02:35
By 'loophole' I generally mean anything that kind of gets around RAI or a generally established rule. (Like the GKT trick/loophole)

RichBlake
28-04-2009, 02:46
He had two units of Grey Knight Termies in Two valks (1st Sword Wing as he called it) then he had Two regular grey knight units in Valks (2nd Sword Wing as he called it). With scout move AND him getting first turn he got 4 assaults off. (Luckily I deployed so that only my one 20 man unit was in front and his clever moving only got him to be able to assault two units max). Needless to say I got punched in the face on the very first ******* turn.

K/S
That doesn't sound right at all.

4 assaults means 4 different units right? And you're saying they ALL assaulted one 20 man squad? Why?

If you have a block of 20 men and he has 4 units this is what he does:

1) Declare his Unit 1 assaulting your Unit A.
2) The cloestest member of Unit 1 moves towards Unit A in the shortest possible fashion.
3) The other members of Unit 1 then move into base to base if possible, then within 2" of base to base
[Here's the key]
4) The members of your Unit A that aren't in base to base move as far as possible up to 6" towards everyone that's in Close Combat.
5) Unit 2 then charges a different unit through the gaps created by Unit A grouping up around Unit 1.

See what I mean? The only possible way I could imagine a squad of 20 Guardsmen preventing 4 different assaults is if the line went RIGHT across the board. Obviously there might be something I missed but nothing I can think of.

Ironically it would seem you cheated your opponent out of his win :p

I think if your opponent had totally kicked your ass and procede to do that EVERY game you'd change your opinion :p

Killingspree
28-04-2009, 03:22
That doesn't sound right at all.

4 assaults means 4 different units right? And you're saying they ALL assaulted one 20 man squad? Why?

If you have a block of 20 men and he has 4 units this is what he does:

1) Declare his Unit 1 assaulting your Unit A.
2) The cloestest member of Unit 1 moves towards Unit A in the shortest possible fashion.
3) The other members of Unit 1 then move into base to base if possible, then within 2" of base to base
[Here's the key]
4) The members of your Unit A that aren't in base to base move as far as possible up to 6" towards everyone that's in Close Combat.
5) Unit 2 then charges a different unit through the gaps created by Unit A grouping up around Unit 1.

See what I mean? The only possible way I could imagine a squad of 20 Guardsmen preventing 4 different assaults is if the line went RIGHT across the board. Obviously there might be something I missed but nothing I can think of.

Ironically it would seem you cheated your opponent out of his win :p

I think if your opponent had totally kicked your ass and procede to do that EVERY game you'd change your opinion :p

You definitely did not understand what happened so allow me to explain.
I put one 20 man unit in front of the other two. This is where you lost me. This unit was right at the 12 inch range of his scouts but it conveniently blocked any of his valks from getting within twelve inches of any other unit. Here, he hit me with the Termies. You need to unerstand something though, his Termie units COULD NOT assault anything else they don't have the range! He could have placed his valks anywhere he wanteed with that move but since they could only be placed 12 inches from my units this meant only my one 20 man unit could be hit. I used it just like a buffer unit.


-------V------V
------------------------VV
XXXXXXXXXXXXX
UUU UUU UUU

Since his scout move can't go further than 24 inches and he can't go within twelve of me. I could only possibly have two units hit with this deployment. (And hope they wouldn't be wiped out which one wasn't!)
You seem to think that I would have deployed all my units forward and not screen them, but isn't that just silly?

For future I may actually use my chimeras instead since they are AV12 and shouldn't go down too easy. Might actually work as a great buffer for my footsloggers.

In my group any "cheating" is un-intentional but I assure you in this case it was not cheating on anyone's part.

K/S

Meriwether
28-04-2009, 03:27
If you have a block of 20 men and he has 4 units this is what he does:

1) Declare his Unit 1 assaulting your Unit A.
2) The cloestest member of Unit 1 moves towards Unit A in the shortest possible fashion.
3) The other members of Unit 1 then move into base to base if possible, then within 2" of base to base
[Here's the key]
4) The members of your Unit A that aren't in base to base move as far as possible up to 6" towards everyone that's in Close Combat.
5) Unit 2 then charges a different unit through the gaps created by Unit A grouping up around Unit 1.

False. All assaulting units are moved before any Pile-In moves are made. Don't believe me -- look it up!

Meri

Killingspree
28-04-2009, 03:42
Are you sure that's what he meant? Wow, I didn't even realize that he meant move and do one assault unit and defending unit at a time! Could have solved that argument without even explaining my screen tactic!

Meriwether
28-04-2009, 03:48
Are you sure that's what he meant?

Nope... I made a deduction based on the sequential nature of his post, and his use of the word "then". I'm sure he'll let us know, though.

Meri

P.S. On your original question: I have no problem with (and strongly prefer) challenging games, interesting tactics, and unique combinations. I do have a problem with deliberate exploitations of the rules for advantage that is most likely undeserved. I've never actually refused to play anyone based on anything other than (a) attitude and (b) odor.

Killingspree
28-04-2009, 03:55
I've never actually refused to play anyone based on anything other than (a) attitude and (b) odor.

AMEN. I 100% agree!

TheOverlord
28-04-2009, 04:02
Well this would depend largely on the loophole, yes? This isn't really a loophole, I'd argue that's exactly how it's supposed to work.

Meriwether
28-04-2009, 04:03
Well, the general "loophole" that I've seen is that GKT's don't count as two models when loading up in a Valk. That seems abusive to me, but then, GKTs are overcosted and reasonably easy to kill with a balanced list, so I don't really care either way.

Meri

Corax
28-04-2009, 04:35
I do have a problem with deliberate exploitations of the rules for advantage that is most likely undeserved. I've never actually refused to play anyone based on anything other than (a) attitude and (b) odor.

I'm with Meri on this one. I don't mind losing (it happens a lot), but I object to losing to jerks and people who cheat.

samiens
28-04-2009, 12:50
LOL, I'll take on any6one any time and most people I play with (like my girlfrined) have the same attitude. I won't blatantly stretch the rules (bolt pistols firing at plasma cannons about 36" away just to check the range) but I'll use every cunning ploy i can within the ruleset and hope my opponents do the same- I wouldn't enjoy the game without the challenge- even if I get smashed lol

Maxus
28-04-2009, 15:37
P.S. On your original question: I have no problem with (and strongly prefer) challenging games, interesting tactics, and unique combinations. I do have a problem with deliberate exploitations of the rules for advantage that is most likely undeserved. I've never actually refused to play anyone based on anything other than (a) attitude and (b) odor.

QFT, a nice little passive aggressive trick of your own, its really a smart ass move of your own, and only to be used on the real jerks, who have a bad attitude and stink: Either say nothing, or something like "you might need this for your next game", and hand them a stick of deodorant.

"Loopholes" and tricks like this are usable once, good players will compensate for this, or even see it coming since you should know what is what and what is where on the board coming at you. Its no reason to pick up your toys and leave.

Meriwether
28-04-2009, 15:42
QFT, a nice little passive aggressive trick of your own, its really a smart ass move of your own, and only to be used on the real jerks, who have a bad attitude and stink: Either say nothing, or something like "you might need this for your next game", and hand them a stick of deodorant.

I never waste time being passive aggressive. I just say "You stink. Do us all a favor and go home, take a shower, and wash your clothes. Then, before you come next time, do it again."

Meri

SPYDER68
28-04-2009, 16:02
How many points was your game ? 1750 ?

4x valks.. the basic ones... 400 pts
to get 2x termy squads you need a 125 pt capt and his retinue cheapest possible is 230.

termy squad for elites cheapest possible is 291...

and cheapest possible 2x troop grey knight squads is 300..

for a total of 1366...

then.. Cheapest possible to do IG's HQ and 2 troop req is...

180 pts.. with NO options or weapons...

= 1546 pts..

now if he has vendetta valks.. it would have been 1666 pts..

an entire list that rely's on first turn win.. that cannot always assault more then two units at start if you placed correctly..

And would be outa insta Gimped if he lost first turn do to.. valks die easy due to size and armor 12, he would be standing in front of you...



its not hard to kill 4x armor 12 vehicles that he runs up and parks right in front of you.... 10x 3+ save guys and 2x 6 man termy squads.. that just cost him 1400 pts..

Sounds like a pretty crappy list imo..

RichBlake
28-04-2009, 16:28
Nope... I made a deduction based on the sequential nature of his post, and his use of the word "then". I'm sure he'll let us know, though.


You are indeed correct Meeris! Apologies.

Also apologies to the OP, I didn't mean to imply you were cheating intentionally, everyone makes mistakes. Hell I played three games with a 2000 point Inquisition list and accidentally cheated in every one. Was 180 points over pointed in the first game, had illegal wargear combinations in the second and in the third my opponent forgot the game we arranged was 2K so I played him with 2K while he only had 1.5 (to be fair we noticed on turn 3 and I let him bring another 500 points of anything on next turn, so he got another demolisher and some other stuff, but thats not the point).

However I was infact wrong about the rules but it seems like I misunderstood what you meant when you said you used it as a buffer anyway.

Gorbad Ironclaw
28-04-2009, 16:34
If you are facing an opponent who is only concerned with loopholes and arguing every game rule, relax and realize that he is doing what he fines exciting and with this knowledge CHALLENGE HIM! Flex your knowledge and tactical might to its limits. If you truly enjoy the game you will find that the game will be far more fun.

But why bother if it stops being about the game? If it turns into a contest of who can deconstruct sentences/rules in the most creative way possible it have long since stopped being about the game I was there to play, so why spent another hour or two pretending?

If my opponent finds that fun, good for him, but if I don't, why should I waste my time doing it?

Granted, I've never actually stopped a game and walked away, not had a reason to, but there are certainly times where I've just been "go ahead, just do whatever you want, it's not worth arguing" and then avoided playing that person ever again.

Fixer
28-04-2009, 16:41
You know, 10 Grey Knight Terminators assaulting out of a Vehicle which could probably physically only support the weight of one or two of them, due to a rules oversight might actually be a way to reliably deal with Seer councils on jetbikes, until the loophole is closed in a UKGT FAQ.

Excellent. :)

SPYDER68
28-04-2009, 16:44
You know, 10 Grey Knight Terminators assaulting out of a Vehicle which could probably physically only support the weight of one or two of them, due to a rules oversight might actually be a way to reliably deal with Seer councils on jetbikes, until the loophole is closed in a UKGT FAQ.

Excellent. :)

Sadly UKGT only effects.... UK GT's... and nothing else..

Ianos
28-04-2009, 16:57
You know, 10 Grey Knight Terminators assaulting out of a Vehicle which could probably physically only support the weight of one or two of them, due to a rules oversight might actually be a way to reliably deal with Seer councils on jetbikes, until the loophole is closed in a UKGT FAQ.

Excellent. :)

No way! There can be only seer council!

Besides if you where right then that would also stand for 8 GKT in LRC which is heresy:rolleyes:

As for the OP, i have exactly the same attitude as you do, i LLOOVE crushing the latest spam of the month with my all season balanced list which is simply far stronger than any so called "cheese" if used properly. In all actuality I have, the "CHEESIEST" list and get the bonus of everyone underestimating it, up until i table them in short order with it.

The Song of Spears
28-04-2009, 17:21
Guys I am confused. How do the termis get the scout move?

According to the USR in the rule book, a unit may scout if it has the rule. And if a unit has scout rule and it has a Dedicated transport unit, then the transport gets the scout move with them.

So according to that the grey knights dont get the scout move with the Valkyries if they are inside, in fact the Valkyrie seems to loose scout at that point. As the rules read, no none-scouts unit gets to ride along in the Valkyries scout move.

SPYDER68
28-04-2009, 18:17
Valkyries have Scout themselves, and technically the unit inside the transport is not on the table to effect the Transports movement.

Sekhmet
28-04-2009, 18:26
He used that damned GKT in a Valkyrie loophole.

That line made me proud. :D

And yeah, I love a challenge. I'll even play my 1500 pts vs 1750 pts just for the hell of it, but I won't ever tell them I'm using 1500 pts.

Frontier
28-04-2009, 20:13
This tactic fascinates me. I May have to investigate whether or not to annoy the marine whiners at my store with it. Oh man, their cries of anguish will be exquisite.

Sekhmet
28-04-2009, 20:31
Guys I am confused. How do the termis get the scout move?

According to the USR in the rule book, a unit may scout if it has the rule. And if a unit has scout rule and it has a Dedicated transport unit, then the transport gets the scout move with them.

So according to that the grey knights dont get the scout move with the Valkyries if they are inside, in fact the Valkyrie seems to loose scout at that point. As the rules read, no none-scouts unit gets to ride along in the Valkyries scout move.

Well there's another thread about this.

But I see a landspeeder storm with deepstrike being the same.

The_Outsider
28-04-2009, 20:32
I play the game for the challenge, though there are certain loopholes I would think twice about (as in, rather than playing nicely I would put on my 'destroy' hat and unleash armaggeddon upon my opponent).

Ertle
28-04-2009, 20:33
oh yeah I'll play but when you have to use **** such as this or the fanatic slingshot, or the first turn charge tomb guard then you need to rethink your priorities. Is it worth sitting down trying to figure this out just to win a game? What happened to sport for sports sake? The question we need to ask ourselves is not why GW lets this stuff happen( mistakes are inevitable live with it till they FAQ) but why do we need to use loopholes?

Sekhmet
28-04-2009, 20:36
oh yeah I'll play but when you have to use **** such as this or the fanatic slingshot, or the first turn charge tomb guard then you need to rethink your priorities. Is it worth sitting down trying to figure this out just to win a game? What happened to sport for sports sake? The question we need to ask ourselves is not why GW lets this stuff happen( mistakes are inevitable live with it till they FAQ) but why do we need to use loopholes?

Cause some of them are fun.

I mean GKTs jumping out the back of a Valk is amazing!

The_Outsider
28-04-2009, 20:39
oh yeah I'll play but when you have to use **** such as this or the fanatic slingshot,

To be fair there is a huge difference between flying GKT's and the fanatic fling.


What happened to sport for sports sake?

It died right around the time the internet became a sensible and accessible way of communicating for the masses.


The question we need to ask ourselves is not why GW lets this stuff happen( mistakes are inevitable live with it till they FAQ) but why do we need to use loopholes?

GW have never, ever changed their approach to game design - to this day they write the rules like they did for RT - i.e as a ruleset for a group of people to use the nice mdoels and play a friendly game, the competitive part of the hobby that ahs grown up is simply not part of the equation.

Hell GW (specifically Jervis on a podcast IIRC) basically said they don't give a monkeys about competitive gaming as it makes up such a small part of the playerbase.

The game has and remains based upon RaI even though the rules forum will argue RaW to the death.

The Song of Spears
29-04-2009, 16:53
GW have never, ever changed their approach to game design - to this day they write the rules like they did for RT - i.e as a ruleset for a group of people to use the nice mdoels and play a friendly game, the competitive part of the hobby that ahs grown up is simply not part of the equation.

Hell GW (specifically Jervis on a podcast IIRC) basically said they don't give a monkeys about competitive gaming as it makes up such a small part of the playerbase.

The game has and remains based upon RaI even though the rules forum will argue RaW to the death.

I have heard this from GW devs at various conventions and tourneys. They dont seem to focus on competitive play, 4th ed just made us think they did. 5th ed is getting things back to how they should be lots of odd rules to make the game fun and interesting. The focus on Apocalypse shows us that, and i bet Planetstrike is the same way.