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Vilicate
28-04-2009, 09:01
Okay, I got into a little rules debate today down at the LGS with a customer about whether or not my pikes on my easterlings were two-handed weapons or not, and whether they get a bonus for having shields or not.

I understand my opponent's view on the matter - that pikes would be pretty hard to use with shields, but I can't find anything in the rules to substantiate this claim. Anyone have any ideas, or am I missing something important?

Rirekon
28-04-2009, 09:43
Technically you could have 2-handed weapons and shields and use both, I don't think there's anything in the rules regarding how many or what type of items may be used together.
May want to double check the unit entry to make sure they do come with both - if so then you get the benefits of both.

On the fluff side; Easily explained by the front rank using shields and back ranks using their pikes :)

Jorgen_CAB
28-04-2009, 09:54
Okay, I got into a little rules debate today down at the LGS with a customer about whether or not my pikes on my easterlings were two-handed weapons or not, and whether they get a bonus for having shields or not.

I understand my opponent's view on the matter - that pikes would be pretty hard to use with shields, but I can't find anything in the rules to substantiate this claim. Anyone have any ideas, or am I missing something important?

The long answer...

Ok, if you look at real life, then you can't use big shields and pikes at the same time. Through history pikes has not been used with shields in that manner.

The Macedonians are famous for their shields and pikes, but it is slightly misleading in a way. First of all, most account of them using shield was actually the hypaspist who used a big bronze shield and a heavy thrusting spear, much like the old Greek phalanx soldiers.
Macedonias used a much smaller shield and it was usually thrown at the back when they got close the the enemy since they needed the leverage and their formation was tightened into a square and pike was lowered against the opponent.
The shield was used to ward of missiles on the march and to fight in hand to hand with their sword. It also was a rather small shield.

So no, logically the large shield that the Easterlings wear can't be used at the same time as the pike... but then again, logically pikes should be way more efficient than they are against any opponent in the front as well.
Historically pike formation can only be beaten by another pike formation from the front in melee. Not even the Romans could beat them with their legions, so they invented other method of how to break them up so they could attack through gap in their lines.

Once a pike formation is committed it s nearly impossible to turn it to face a new threat, that is usually how pikes were beaten during the Roman and later eras.

The short answer...

According to the rules they can use both pike and shield. Even though it is illogical. But pike in the game are not nearly as powerful as in real life anyway so I don't think that it do much anyway.

sandersn
28-04-2009, 12:45
Technically you could have 2-handed weapons and shields and use both, I don't think there's anything in the rules regarding how many or what type of items may be used together.
May want to double check the unit entry to make sure they do come with both - if so then you get the benefits of both.

On the fluff side; Easily explained by the front rank using shields and back ranks using their pikes :)

On p. 59, it states:

"If the infantry formation has both shields and two-handed weapons, it must choose which it will use at the start of the Fight phase - it cannot use both."

Pikes are not in the two-handed weapons category though. They are under a different section, so I think you can use both. Otherwise, couldn't you counter-claim that if pikes are two-handed weapons, they get all the advantages (+1 bonus to dice results) and disadvantages (-1 fight value cancelled out by the pike's own +1 to fight)?

Rirekon
28-04-2009, 12:53
On p. 59, it states:

"If the infantry formation has both shields and two-handed weapons, it must choose which it will use at the start of the Fight phase - it cannot use both."

Pikes are not in the two-handed weapons category though. They are under a different section, so I think you can use both. Otherwise, couldn't you counter-claim that if pikes are two-handed weapons, they get all the advantages (+1 bonus to dice results) and disadvantages (-1 fight value cancelled out by the pike's own +1 to fight)?

Haha, my example gets owned :(
I agree 100% that unless the entry for pike says they can't be used with shields then they can.

Nu Fenix
28-04-2009, 14:29
Somehow Easterlings are the only people to work out how to fight with a pike whilst defending yourself ith a shield. Guess thats the benefit for following Sauron ;)

Vilicate
28-04-2009, 18:01
Somehow Easterlings are the only people to work out how to fight with a pike whilst defending yourself ith a shield. Guess thats the benefit for following Sauron ;)

One of many apparently :D

Thanks!