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huitzilopochtli
28-04-2009, 15:42
Are there still many people buying from games workshop stores? I'd have thought with the global recession everyone would be trying to be a bit more careful with their money and, while that's not easy to do in a hobby like Warhammer, the most obvious thing to do is to stop buying from GW stores.

There are loads of sites on the internet that offer drastically reduced prices for GW mini's - some don't even charge you for the postage! I haven't bought any models from my local store in a year or more, everything I get I buy online for about 60% the price I'd have to pay in store. Granted I have to wait about a week and a half for it to get to me, but if it means I can buy a battalion for €50 instead of €80 I'm willing to be patient.

So are there people out there who haven't tried these sites? Are there people who don't know about them? Or are the people who are still buying from their local a minority, and we all just love to complain about the prices?

Hope this hasn't been posted already - or too recently, whichever is more appropriate. I tried searching but I'm notoriously bad at it so...yeah.

badgeraddict
28-04-2009, 15:52
The only thing I have actually brought at GW stores recently is paint. The only reason for this is that I like to stick to 'what I know' when it comes to paint. I'm ever on the look out for cheaper and/or better quality brushes.

Looking at my GW brushes now; my Citadel Standard Brush has less brissels than the Fine Detail brush. Very odd.

I try to get everything else from eBay or Internet stores.

Glue is a bit of a gray area, I did actually last buy it from GW which was a bit silly since I can get better quality, cheaper stuff anywhere else.

Perhaps someone should make a sticky thread with links to online stores? That would be a good idea I feel.

Smiling Banshee
28-04-2009, 16:01
I always stuck loyally to the GW stores, even though I knew it was a bit more expensive. I guess I just enjoyed being able to pick stuff up and have a look at the back of the boxes etc. Pretty much like the OP ive not got anything from my local store in over a year. Credit crunch forced me to watch my spending and go for cheaper online alrenatives or even 2nd hand stuff from ebay which I can re-model, re-paint at a fraction of the cost.

Malorian
28-04-2009, 16:03
Other than really large orders (buying an entire army at one time) I get everything from GW.

If you like the hobby you have to support it.


Trying to save a buck and taking shortcuts is the exact reason why we are in a recesion right now.

parus_ater
28-04-2009, 16:05
Actually, no, it's not. The reason that we're in a recession right now is because people have taken out massive loans to by sh:t they don't need.

Onidan
28-04-2009, 16:06
I mainly buy online, but stuff like a blister or two (for specific minis), maybe even a regiment if I need it quickly and paint/glue I buy at my local GW.

If it were a matter of 10-15% Iīd buy more at GW directly, but the german prices are that bad that I can get up to 50% when ordering from GB. Hard not to buy online.

kyussinchains
28-04-2009, 16:08
Other than really large orders (buying an entire army at one time) I get everything from GW.

If you like the hobby you have to support it.


Trying to save a buck and taking shortcuts is the exact reason why we are in a recesion right now.

if GW didn't make money on it, they wouldn't sell to independant retailers..... the extra 20-30% charged on GW instore prices covers the wages of the staff and the costs of running the shop...

I think that you're a bit silly to keep buying from GW if you can get stuff cheaper elsewhere..... if you've got the cash, fancy sending some my way? ;)

the only thing I buy from GW direct any more is white dwarf (on occasion) and collectors range minis

Aurellis
28-04-2009, 16:10
I buy from GW normally, afterall, I need to support my local store or it'll disappear! And that won't be good as it's good to go to a pick up and play game every now and then. I'm always looking through eBay for bargains though, it's a smart thing to do I guess and is handy if you're after something very specific.

FictionalCharacter
28-04-2009, 16:12
i buy larger units on ebay on the cheap, and i buy a blister or so whenever i stop by an indie store to help support the store. i never buy retail from gw. they get their cut regardless, and businesses trying to claim more money than things are worth are the exact reason we're in a recession right now...

Faeslayer
28-04-2009, 16:19
It's tough around here. I live in Chicago, and sales tax here is 10.25% (the highest in the US!). My GW store is in the 'burbs, but that's still 7.5%... it's very hard to convince myself not to buy online.

I don't like buying online. I love game stores, and I love coming out of them with stuff in my hands. I also hate packing peanuts!

Impulse buys sometimes prevail, but when it comes time to sit down and plan out an enormous purchase, it's hard not to go with whoever's cheapest.

zak
28-04-2009, 16:23
The nearest shop is an Independent shop so I buy there. In that way I am supporting both GW and them. I don't tend to buy much from e-bay as there isn't much on there I want and it takes ages to strip paint from badly painted mini's.

Gork or Possibly Mork
28-04-2009, 16:23
I have never bought anything directly from GW. They have no store in my area so I couldn't If I wanted to. I don't shop online because I like to support my small local hobby/comic book mom and pops store. They sell GW products there for roughly the same price. I could just use ebay or online stores but I prefer to support my local hobby store.

In 2009 I have bought
LM 2009 Armybook
2 Stegadon Kits
2 boxes of temple guard
1 Orc chariot
1 more gorger for my Ogres

The thing that ticks me off is that while I can afford greatswords many of my friends just can't or like me won't pay those prices. It's the little mom and pops stores that will be undercut out of business. Which I might add brings many new players to the game.

O&G'sRule
28-04-2009, 16:26
Yeah lots of stuff. I've no idea why I bought a stompa despite not having an Ork army but I did

The Clairvoyant
28-04-2009, 16:28
i do a bit of everything.
There's a toy shop in my town that sells a few bits so i generally get my paint from there and models if they have them, though usually its just space marines they have.
My local GW is a 15min drive and thats where i get most of my stuff. If i'm looking at spending over Ģ100 i'll buy online as that way, its like getting one box of stuff free

Malorian
28-04-2009, 16:29
Actually, no, it's not. The reason that we're in a recession right now is because people have taken out massive loans to by sh:t they don't need.

:rolleyes:

That'e exactly my point (except you forgot the part about the banks allowing them to take out those loans). People bending the rules to make a quick buck doesn't work if everyone is doing it.


If GW makes less money they have to do one of two things:

1. Get better to get more buyers (wouldn't matter because you people would still just buy online)

or 2. Scale back. If you think you have bad support now just think how it would be if they had to let go some of the developement team.


Better yet lets all just buy cheap models from places like Reaper and/or just make all the rest of the stuff we need to play. I'm sure GW will continue to support and update the rules for something which makes them no money :rolleyes:

LordofLizardmen
28-04-2009, 16:30
I buy exclusively at either Ebay or Bartertown. The local GW moved to some god forsaken out of the way place, and I'm not going there when I can sit at home and lesurely buy whatever I feel like without someone breathing down my neck.


Better yet lets all just buy cheap models from places like Reaper and/or just make all the rest of the stuff we need to play. I'm sure GW will continue to support and update the rules for something which makes them no money


Thank you I will. I will continue supporting the opposition until GW either goes down sinking like the titantic or belly ups and reduces prices. Since the first option is more likely than they ever stopping thier money grubbing hands, I continue to do so.

Ethlorien
28-04-2009, 16:31
I haven't bought from GW in a loong time. But for me, it's more because I have a) too much stuff as it is, and b) not enough time to devote to it right now. If and when i have more time to devote to the hobby and I get through a decent pile of my unpainted minis, I've got no problems about going back to GW to buy more.

Malorian
28-04-2009, 16:34
I haven't bought from GW in a loong time.

Maybe if more people in Calgary bought from the stores they wouldn't have closed the shop there (one of them). (I know you were for a different reason but I'm trying to make a point.)

In Edmonton we have two GWs and one is #1 for sales in Canada and the other is #2. But then again Edmonton is better then Calgary :p :D


Edit: Sorry I forgot to touch on this:

"if GW didn't make money on it, they wouldn't sell to independant retailers..... the extra 20-30% charged on GW instore prices covers the wages of the staff and the costs of running the shop..."

If they don't have the money to have the shops how are they going to draw in new players? If they don't have the money for staff how are they going to run tournaments?

badgeraddict
28-04-2009, 16:43
In truth I should stop buying models. I've more than enough to paint!

In fact I shall buy no more models until the new Bretonnian book turns up!

Just paints from GW for me then!

FictionalCharacter
28-04-2009, 16:46
If they don't have the money to have the shops how are they going to draw in new players? If they don't have the money for staff how are they going to run tournaments?

by supporting independent stores instead of competing with them.

xragg
28-04-2009, 16:47
The recession is also dramatically overhyped. While its true certain sectors are getting hit hard, its mostly due to old lumbering business practices that have been on the decline for the last couple decades COMBINED with bad policies enforced by governments on other sectors. The fire was already coming with the governments sprinkling some gasolene on the fire. Most just chose to wear blinders the last 10 or 15 years. The economy as a whole didnt just magically break overnight, and all the tampering government is doing now is frustrating. Its the same mentality used in schools, where no kid is allowed to fail cause it might hurt their feelings or stunt their growth nonsense.

I buy most of my models from the local game store. While not an official GW store, its still very large and does alot to welcome free gaming. They offer many nice tables and are constantly making new terrain. Though I could probally get my stuff cheaper online, I dont mind paying slightly more to get it right away and to support the place I play most often.

sigur
28-04-2009, 16:50
I actually prefer buying stuff in a store rather than at an online store. Making the efford of getting into the store, browsing, picking your stuff, paying it at the counter and dragging it home in a bag is something different to click-click-click, wait for two weeks, rip open a package and there it is.

And this goes even more so for GW stores as their whole purpose is to provide with benefits beyond selling toys. I also actually prefer having stuff shipped to a store where I pick it up rather than having it shipped directly to my flat.


@xragg: I think the global recession hits different countries in different ways. Here in the UK, for example the panic is not completely unfounded I think. In Austria, on the other hand, the whole thing is seen way less dramatic. Maybe it's a mentalities thing but there's other stuff to consider too. All of a sudden, the world is quite big again, with many, many different areas and different industry habitats, as opposed to the totally globalized world we had for the past decade. :)

Bac5665
28-04-2009, 17:00
I don't buy from GW simply because there are no GW stores within 400 miles of me.

I do buy almost exclusively from my local gaming store, which is where I play as well. Here's to Local Gaming Stores!!

Malorian
28-04-2009, 17:00
Try coming to Fort McMurray and saying the recession is all hype...

Melta Pants
28-04-2009, 17:03
Maybe if more people in Calgary bought from the stores they wouldn't have closed the shop there (one of them). (I know you were for a different reason but I'm trying to make a point.)

In Edmonton we have two GWs and one is #1 for sales in Canada and the other is #2. But then again Edmonton is better then Calgary :p :D


Edit: Sorry I forgot to touch on this:

"if GW didn't make money on it, they wouldn't sell to independant retailers..... the extra 20-30% charged on GW instore prices covers the wages of the staff and the costs of running the shop..."

If they don't have the money to have the shops how are they going to draw in new players? If they don't have the money for staff how are they going to run tournaments?

Some of us don't buy from GW because there is no local GW store to support. I buy online (where GW still makes money, Lord knows) and support the hobby that way.

Gork or Possibly Mork
28-04-2009, 17:05
I do buy almost exclusively from my local gaming store, which is where I play as well. Here's to Local Gaming Stores!!

I'll drink to that:)

Brother Gabriel
28-04-2009, 17:05
If i had to support a local hobby store, to have a place to go gaming, i would buy there. But since i havent, as we are organized in a club i order online.

IcedCrow
28-04-2009, 17:06
Our local stores, all three of them, have such poor inventory that often times I cannot find what I'm looking for. As such, I order online.

Lord Dan
28-04-2009, 17:09
I'm with Malorian. I find it amusing the people on these forums think that GW going under would somehow make things better for them. It's like they forget that GW supplies the models they're buying on other sites, and if GW went down those sites would stop selling GW products.

I buy my models and paint from GW, and I buy my glue and basing supplies from wherever I can find them. You can say what you want, but assuming I have "money to spare" would be naive- I just get to buy less models than you do. I do, however, walk away with satisfaction similar to buying a CD instead of downloading it from teh interwebz.

Malorian
28-04-2009, 17:11
I do, however, walk away with satisfaction similar to buying a CD instead of downloading it from teh interwebz.

A great comparison.

Gork or Possibly Mork
28-04-2009, 17:24
I'm with Malorian. I find it amusing the people on these forums think that GW going under would somehow make things better for them. It's like they forget that GW supplies the models they're buying on other sites, and if GW went down those sites would stop selling GW products.

I buy my models and paint from GW, and I buy my glue and basing supplies from wherever I can find them. You can say what you want, but assuming I have "money to spare" would be naive- I just get to buy less models than you do. I do, however, walk away with satisfaction similar to buying a CD instead of downloading it from teh interwebz.

Would you order from GW direct if you had no store in your state but had a local independant store 5 miles away? I'd buy from a GW store if one was close by but none exist in my state.

Brother Gabriel
28-04-2009, 17:46
I wonder how exactly do i damage GW by buying the GW products from an independent internet retailer? Oh and actually i think its a good way to secure some small business jobs. And those small retailers are also needed by other companies that want to sell games...

Tarliyn
28-04-2009, 17:46
If my local indie store has it I buy it from them; I will also make small batch orders from them. If I am buying a large order I get it straight from games workshop. And honestly my logic is to support them more. I don't want my favorite model/gaming company to go under, so I spend some extra money to help prevent that.

The only thing I get off ebay is OOP models and even then I normally call up GW first and see if they have them (typically they don't).

Though if everything starts getting priced like the new greatswords, I may have to reconsider that position. $150 dollars in order to field a unit of 25 is really really pushing my ability to justify this stand point.

Duke Georgal
28-04-2009, 17:52
It's tough around here. I live in Chicago, and sales tax here is 10.25% (the highest in the US!). My GW store is in the 'burbs, but that's still 7.5%... it's very hard to convince myself not to buy online.

Good Heavens! 10.25%! That is insane.

How did this happen to Chicago?

I complain about the 6% I am stuck with!

brotherAkkyshan
28-04-2009, 17:58
I'm lucky enough to live in a (small) town in the UK with both a GW store and an indepentent game store. I STILL prefer to buy stuff second hand online or from online stores as it stops me buying stuff I don't need!

In terms of GW going under... so what? Let's go back to the late seventies/early eighties where models when gamers and gaming groups were encouraged to use a mixture of companies to build their armies. Gamers were also more likely to change and adapt rulesets and to come up with new rules themselves. Do we have to have everything 'spoon fed' to us these days. If you look at any group of 'historical' wargamers there armies include any number of ranges of miniatures, they'll be playing their own 'in house' rules or at least personally adated rules.

Buy your stuff where you want, play how you want... if GW can't make money from something with the mark-ups they deal in then they deserve to go under, recession or not!

Duke Georgal
28-04-2009, 18:06
I find this viewpoint humorous:

"If you don't buy from your local GW store they will go out of business, and that is bad for the hobby, so you must support your local GW store."

Now there are ZERO GW stores in Florida, USA, and I live near the very bottom of the state. I need to drive 15-20 hours to reach a GW store, hence, I have never been inside of one.

If a GW store opened in Cuba, if would be more convenient for me than the closest one is now.

The hobby has thrived on the Gulf Coast of Florida for at least 15 years with no GW stores. To me, a GW store sounds like a very boring place. Just GW product? LAME! No Days of Wonder board games? LAME! No Pokemon or Magic the Gathering? LAME! No all night Axis & Allies? LAME! No cut-throat Settlers of Catan action? LAME!

Why would I set foot in a store that only carries one very limited line of product? What is this hobby without also having access to products from Woodland Scenics, Evergreen Plastics, Midwest Lumber, etc., etc., etc.?

That doesn't even begin to cover the awesome products offered by Gamezone, Reaper, Pegasus, and so on.

This hobby is bigger and better than just GW.

If you ask me, GW is hurting the hobby with their stores. Independent retailers are much better for their health than company owned stores are. Sure, without GW we would not have a hobby to speak of, but without complimentary product lines it is a very boring hobby indeed.

Support your independent local gaming retailer.

BAH! to GW stores.

forgottenlor
28-04-2009, 18:11
I've bought from GW stores in the past and will do so again, but only new items. If I can save money I do so. For me the hobby has become really expensive and I don't "need" any new models, since I'm mostly at this point fleshing my old armies out. I had once considered starting a new army when the new Beasts of Chaos book comes out (I've always liked the beasts) or buying some warriors of chaos units to "support" my ogres, but I've come to the conclusion I'd rather buy other stuff. 3 razadons cost 60 euros and 5 blood knights 70. That's a luxury I just can't justify to myself anymore.

Sarah S
28-04-2009, 18:24
A great comparison.

No it's not. It's the silliest comparison I have read in a long time.

Downloading music (theoretically) at least is a violation of copyright (in most jurisdictions) and (allegedly) does harm to the original maker of the music.

Buying from discount stores? Who do you think sold their stock to those discount stores in the first place? GW is still making their nickel off of every discount sale and there's nothing shady going on.

xragg
28-04-2009, 18:27
Now there are ZERO GW stores in Florida, USA, and I live near the very bottom of the state. I need to drive 15-20 hours to reach a GW store, hence, I have never been inside of one.


You must have a slow car. I can drive from Pittsburgh to Panama City somewhere round 17-18 hours, depending on how many stops I make. It doesnt make your point less important, you live far far away from a GW store, and its not worth your time to drive to one. I just found it a little funny. And I agree, a pure GW store would be quite boring. Especially when I hear they bug you to buy things when you play there. I enjoy playing other games too, like you mentioned.

Edit: Just out of curiousity, I did some searching on where GW stores are and I think my closest is Philly (little more then 5 hour trip for me). Sadly for people in Key West, I think Atlanta might be the closest store, which the Yahoo mapper says is something like 13 hours away. Wow, now thats a drive!

Eumerin
28-04-2009, 18:31
It's tough around here. I live in Chicago, and sales tax here is 10.25% (the highest in the US!).

Not the highest for long, if the legislature here in California ends up pushing that 1% sales tax increase through that they've been talking about. Los Angeles County already has a 9.25% sales tax (it got bumped up 1% in the last election), and now the state legislature wants another 1% hike for the entire state to help deal with a massive budget shortfall.

>.<



For purchases, there are two GW stores moderately close to me. But I make all of my purchases at my local non-GW store, which is also where I play my games. My local store has a pretty good inventory in stock at all times, and can get anything that they don't have pretty quickly.

Malorian
28-04-2009, 18:35
No it's not. It's the silliest comparison I have read in a long time.

Downloading music (theoretically) at least is a violation of copyright (in most jurisdictions) and (allegedly) does harm to the original maker of the music.

Buying from discount stores? Who do you think sold their stock to those discount stores in the first place? GW is still making their nickel off of every discount sale and there's nothing shady going on.

This has more to do with the online sales which can come from staff members using their discount to make an easy buck online.

Egor
28-04-2009, 18:40
You must have a slow car. I can drive from Pittsburgh to Panama City somewhere round 17-18 hours, depending on how many stops I make. It doesnt make your point less important, you live far far away from a GW store, and its not worth your time to drive to one. I just found it a little funny. And I agree, a pure GW store would be quite boring. Especially when I hear they bug you to buy things when you play there. I enjoy playing other games too, like you mentioned.

Panama City is still a good 5-6 hours from south Florida. I'm just saying....

parus_ater
28-04-2009, 18:46
:rolleyes:

That'e exactly my point (except you forgot the part about the banks allowing them to take out those loans). People bending the rules to make a quick buck doesn't work if everyone is doing it.

:

No, you said
Trying to save a buck and taking shortcuts is the exact reason why we are in a recesion right now. Which the exact opposite of what I said.:rolleyes::rolleyes: (actually, one for luck :rolleyes: )

Malorian
28-04-2009, 18:52
No, you said Which the exact opposite of what I said.:rolleyes::rolleyes: (actually, one for luck :rolleyes: )

...the banks you fool, the banks!!!

The banks let anyone with a pulse take out a loan which allows the dead beats to run up credit the bank couldn't handle.

So to recap, the banks try to make a fast buck by cutting corners and bending the rules to lend anyone and everyone money (hurry more interest for them!) but got caught when it bit them in the butt.

This is just like how those internet site offer GW stuff at a big discount which means GW makes less money and could lead to the point where they cut back services/models or fold completely.


Is that clear enough for you now or do I need finger puppets?

devilfluff
28-04-2009, 18:52
Since the GW store is the best and almost only option for a location to play, I do purchase some items while there. Mostly paint and hobby supplies, but occasionally blisters or individual box sets.

For large purchases(like starting my Empire), I primarily work the online auction sites for used deals...

parus_ater
28-04-2009, 18:56
...the banks you fool, the banks!!!

The banks let anyone with a pulse take out a loan which allows the dead beats to run up credit the bank couldn't handle.

So to recap, the banks try to make a fast buck by cutting corners and bending the rules to lend anyone and everyone money (hurry more interest for them!) but got caught when it bit them in the butt.


Is that clear enough for you now?

Thank goodness we have you economic insight. No bank can 'save' money by chucking out massive loans. And anyway, what any of this to do with the price of egg? (Eggs of course, are deflating at the moment therefor reducing in price)

parus_ater
28-04-2009, 19:03
By the way, your original point was about consumer ecomomics and not about corporate economics, hence my confusion and your colonial rudness.

devilfluff
28-04-2009, 19:06
...the banks you fool, the banks!!!

The banks let anyone with a pulse take out a loan which allows the dead beats to run up credit the bank couldn't handle.

So to recap, the banks try to make a fast buck by cutting corners and bending the rules to lend anyone and everyone money (hurry more interest for them!) but got caught when it bit them in the butt.

This is just like how those internet site offer GW stuff at a big discount which means GW makes less money and could lead to the point where they cut back services/models or fold completely.

So... the people who borrowed money they couldn't pay back for things they didn't need take none of the blame?

GW makes money on every sale anybody makes of their products... if too many people buy from other outlets, worst case is GW will shut down their retail divisions.

Zoolander
28-04-2009, 19:08
Actually, no, it's not. The reason that we're in a recession right now is because people have taken out massive loans to by sh:t they don't need.

3/4 of the economy relies on consumer spending. When people horde their cash, it only makes our economy sink further. The best thing to do is to go buy stuff, especially big stuff like cars or houses.

To answer the OP, I still spend just as much at GW as I did before. the economy has had no barring on my hobby expenditure.

Oh, and Maloran is right at least in one point. This whole thing started when people started defaulting on their home loans.

RossS
28-04-2009, 19:12
Actually, no, it's not. The reason that we're in a recession right now is because people have taken out massive loans to by sh:t they don't need.

Recessions are, in Keynsian economic theory, a consequence of a crisis in demand. During a recession, individuals (in response to a loss of income or prospective loss in income) cut their spending. While this is sensible for the individual, it is also dangerous for the group. It creates a "death spiral," in which a decline in spending begets a loss in profits for companies, who are then forced to cut costs by slashing their labor costs. This further damages consumer demand, since it creates new battalions of unemployed.

So, while recessions tend to be caused by shenanigans in the financial sector (1929, Savings and Loans, and the present calamity), they are perpetuated by a sustained (if entirely understandable) decline in consumer demand.

Even though they may despise Keynes, and abuse him out of instinct, the GOP's anti-recessions strategy (tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts) comes from an understanding of Keynes' theory. The Democrats, of course, just can't get enough of the man, and have adopted more typically Keynsian strategies to create demand. I use American examples because they are the ones with which I am most familiar.

While you may think it is sensible to be frugal, really you are damaging the economy in both the short and the long term. The Japanese economy has never really recovered from the 90's, in part, because the Japanese have not returned to their spending habits of the 80's. Inept political leadership has not helped the situation.

In conclusion, buy GW to keep it going. I buy all my stuff from Games Workshop because I want it to do well, and because I want it to continue to produce quality products. And while I appreciate that a lot of people have to become frugal, one should only drastically cut his/her spending if it is absolutely necessary. At least in the short term, it is essential to spend, spend, spend. It's your patriotic duty.;)

parus_ater
28-04-2009, 19:12
So... the people who borrowed money they couldn't pay back for things they didn't need take none of the blame?

GW makes money on every sale anybody makes of their products... if too many people buy from other outlets, worst case is GW will shut down their retail divisions.

Indeed sir!

Due to the ages of GW customers a larger proportion of customer transactions are done with cash when done in the store than most other 'luxury' retailers. By moving onto online and mail order companies the payment will have to be through debit card and credit based systems. This makes cash harder to keep track of at the very least.

By buying in store, you're putting cash into the local economy by providing jobs, spending in other shops while going - keeping a shopping district alive! This alone helps grow the ecomomy on a local scale.

parus_ater
28-04-2009, 19:14
RossS;

Funny thing, Capitalism as a system, grinds to a halt ever other decade, self distructs twice a century..... Socialism has never been tried and yet capitalist will tell you that failed.....

Malorian
28-04-2009, 19:19
So... the people who borrowed money they couldn't pay back for things they didn't need take none of the blame?

GW makes money on every sale anybody makes of their products... if too many people buy from other outlets, worst case is GW will shut down their retail divisions.

Think of it in terms of the oil industry.

A little while ago we were making tons of money, expanding, and keeping the whole country busy.

Now we are still making money, but not much... programs have been cut, people fired, and basically pulling back all together.


Is this what you want GW to do? Because if a company makes less money things obviously change (and rarely for the better).

rtunian
28-04-2009, 19:21
Thank goodness we have you economic insight. No bank can 'save' money by chucking out massive loans. And anyway, what any of this to do with the price of egg? (Eggs of course, are deflating at the moment therefor reducing in price)

lol

banks are not in business to save money. banks are in business to make money. they make money by selling money. the price of money is the interest rate. so they sell you money, and in exchange you pay interest over time. in addition, a market developed to sell the consumer debt (way too complicated a concept to explain here). essentially, billions of dollars were made off of debt, which is why there was so much debt being handed out.

unfortunately, as explained numerous times but perhaps one more will get through, a moderate amount of cheating can be supported. when everyone cheats, the system breaks down.

all that said, the banking fiasco was not the sole cause of the recession, but merely an exasperating factor. recession is a fact of economic life, and not at all unpreventable (there is a definite cycle between expansion, peak, recession, trough, over and over and over throughout history). in fact america has been in a recession for several years, if you ignore the media and political jabber and look at the facts and figures, particularly unemployment, inflation, government spending.

i'll stop before i get too political :p

now about the thread topic, to date i've purchased only from gw store or site (when the store didn't have what i want). i don't know if there are any indie stores near me, but i would give them at least a little business if i was aware. i'm alright with buying some from gw despite the higher prices, because they just built an enormous game room filled with tables at the gw store nearby.

that said, i do find gw's prices both annoying and confusing, and so i also shop ebay and will take a great offer if one comes my way. i've checked out some 3rd party mini makers, and i haven't been too impressed with the orcs available

dannyfave
28-04-2009, 19:22
I buy from indie stores or I trade in the forums... I like my indie store, so much that I drive 109 miles to get there when I could just buy the models online.

As far as the new greatswords go, I can afford them and I will buy them, but I feel for those who can't and I am not happy with the price.

parus_ater
28-04-2009, 19:26
Excellent summing up, Sir!

Can I point out also, in britain a Ģ18 box sold by GW makes them Ģ18-costs. An Ģ18 box sold by an independant makes GW Ģ12-costs. Independants are encouraged by GW to get their products to places where people will have to go way out their way to find them and in so, get introduced to the hobby. This makes sense if that person gets into the hobby and then has to use the mail order system - a consumer buying a product who would not previously.

The Red Scourge
28-04-2009, 19:27
Most of my money goes for internet retailers with decent prices. Quite often though they lack certain models – usually hero types – so here I'm forced to go local.

Faeslayer
28-04-2009, 19:34
Good Heavens! 10.25%! That is insane.

How did this happen to Chicago?

Mayor Daley plays Empire.

(rimshot)

LordofLizardmen
28-04-2009, 20:18
A great comparison.

A poor comparison. There is no difference if I have bought a cd online or if I download a cd. In the end I get the same music.

Its not about where you buy it but how you reach there to buy it. If i'm buying a Saurus regiment, I check the GW price and the indie price. In the end when I buy it online or at an Indie, or heaven forbid I actually step into a GW Store, I still get my Saurus regiment and the retailer gets my monies.

Seth the Dark
28-04-2009, 20:22
I try to buy from my local gaming store so I can contribute a little to keeping them in business.

Tokamak
28-04-2009, 20:42
I put way too much time in each single model to be considered a serious GW customer. I'm still working on my big'un unit I bought last christmas.

bob_the_small
28-04-2009, 21:06
I buy occasionally, to keep up the delusion of me being a good customer, but mostly i buy from ebay, but when the new price rise cometh... no more GW buying for me...

WhyNotCrashDifferently?
28-04-2009, 21:07
I buy from my local independant retailer, paying full price, to support the store.

I don't buy direct from Games Workshop and only order odd bits online.

Dungeon_Lawyer
28-04-2009, 21:11
I buy online always online:

Case in point, when I wanted to buy Kroq-Gar: its hard to drive to a store and deal with annoying salepeople and spend $45 on kroq-gar plus tax, or go to GW's website and spend $45 plus roughly $10 in shipping, when I could go online to ebay and for $60 in one auction get Kroq-Gar, a stegodon, 24 skinks, 1 terradon, 1 kroxigor, and 2 saurus with spears shipped.

another case in point for under $45 in various ebay auctions I was able to pick up 2 beast herds, 1 beastchamp, 1 shamen, gor-thor the beastlord, a shaggoth, and a unit of cenitgors-45 bucks!!!!! If I had bought anywhere else, even before factoring shipping or tax , all of those models would have cost me well over 200 bucks.

Mireadur
28-04-2009, 21:21
Other than really large orders (buying an entire army at one time) I get everything from GW.

If you like the hobby you have to support it.


Trying to save a buck and taking shortcuts is the exact reason why we are in a recesion right now.

Dont worry you are supporting GW as much either buying from a GW store as from an indy. You are buying their stuff after all, and if GW wasnt interested in selling that way they just wouldnt do it.

kyussinchains
28-04-2009, 21:33
Dont worry you are supporting GW as much either buying from a GW store as from an indy. You are buying their stuff after all, and if GW wasnt interested in selling that way they just wouldnt do it.

Quoted for truth!



If they don't have the money to have the shops how are they going to draw in new players? If they don't have the money for staff how are they going to run tournaments?

not sure how this relates to my original quote to be honest..... basic common sense dictates that if you're losing money by selling to independant retailers, stop selling to them.... GW aren't stopping so that's clearly not the problem.

Someone elsewhere mentioned that the GW model is designed to run on a 70% margin, the overheads of renting, staffing and operating a store are the reason for the extra 30% on the price, I'm not saying get rid of the staff, I'm saying that they make no more profit selling direct from a store than they do selling to an indie retailer who passes part of that discount on to the end customer.

Shimmergloom
28-04-2009, 22:22
I buy from the cheapest sources possible.

That is capitalism. It is up to GW to get me, the consumer to want to buy from them. This isn't communism. I have choice and I will exercise that choice.

The apologist harp all day long on how the price rises are necessary because GW is a business and needs to make money and make their stockholders happy.

But in being that capitalist company they must play by all the rules of capitalism. Not just the rules that only benefit them.

So if they want me to buy directly from them and not from other online retailers, ebay or using other competitor models, then convince me that your product is the best deal and the best quality.

Otherwise don't **** and moan about it.

Hlokk
28-04-2009, 22:41
... massive loans to buy sh:t they don't need.
You're not Tyler Durden by any chance are you?

Or is that breaking the first rule of fight club?

parus_ater
28-04-2009, 22:47
You are not your bank account.


Now, here's a thing, blowing up all the credit records would, in this instance, fix the current financial situation, regaining the free market.

Mischief meets monday nights, Mayhem Thursdays.

Zoolander
28-04-2009, 22:54
I buy online always online:

Case in point, when I wanted to buy Kroq-Gar: its hard to drive to a store and deal with annoying salepeople and spend $45 on kroq-gar plus tax, or go to GW's website and spend $45 plus roughly $10 in shipping, when I could go online to ebay and for $60 in one auction get Kroq-Gar, a stegodon, 24 skinks, 1 terradon, 1 kroxigor, and 2 saurus with spears shipped.


I agree with you that GW's prices are outrageous. But I also prefer new models that people haven't assembled and painted themselves.

Half the time, I find the order above would be closer to; Kroq-Gar without shield, poorly assembled and/or painted, a stegadon assembled poorly and missing a skink or two, 24 skinks with javelins when I wanted blow pipes (also poorly painted), 1 teradon minus the rider or with a broken stand, and 2 saurus with hand weapon when I wanted spears. :eyebrows:

But you do get lower prices, so I understand the motivation.

Khornies & milk
28-04-2009, 23:01
I've had lots of touble buying stuff from E-Bay so don't even bother anymore.
On-line Traders is another matter entirely...I haven't paid full retail for 3-4 years, as
20-25% off is way to good a deal to pass on.

I've saved about A$1500 by doing this...that's paid for my Dwarf army.

Witchblade
28-04-2009, 23:20
Buy from independent retailers => GW has to lower prices to compete => one step away from GW's monopoly and towards perfect competition.

Monopoly means high prices and small supply.

parus_ater
28-04-2009, 23:21
How come there's only one Monopolies Commission?:wtf::evilgrin:

Agreed.:angel:

dariakus
28-04-2009, 23:28
RossS;

Funny thing, Capitalism as a system, grinds to a halt ever other decade, self distructs twice a century..... Socialism has never been tried and yet capitalist will tell you that failed.....

At risk of straying off topic, there are any number of socialist regimes that have been tried. Many of them have failed, or are struggling to catch up to the First World, but they've been tried nonetheless.

There are currently five Communist states:
People's Republic of China, North Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, and Laos.

There was one huge one that was an epic failure - the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

There are many more that are socialist without the communism. Chile, Algeria, Venezuela, Nicaragua, etc. etc.

Socialism has most definitely been tried, and the amount of success it's seen is somewhat questionable. The USSR collapsed in upon itself, and the other Marxist nations aren't exactly places I'd ever consider moving, or even visiting on vacation.

Feed me capitalism, please. For all of its ills, the results are better than socialism has ever produced. There is no perfect system, so given the flaws of, say, Canada or the United States, vs. the flaws of North Korea or Venezuela, the choice is clear :cool:

EDIT: I'd also like to point out that three of those communist states have actually started shifting toward free market capitalism because there was no other way to get ahead. China, Vietnam, and Laos. Bravo, I say. The more people we can get in the First World, with free trade for all, the better off the entire world will be.

parus_ater
28-04-2009, 23:30
Who said anything about Communism? Not I!

Cuba and Venezuela manage fine, and would do better without US interferance. The problem with countries trying socialistic systems is that the US just can't keep it's nose out. USSR, N. Korea, China, Vietnam etc are failed states yes, but proto-socialism never had a chance to work, the excelleration was too fast. For the Record, Pinochet's Chile was a Fascist state, backed by 'Right Wing' Governments.


Not that I hold any political leanings but if you want to discuss this, PM's are the way forward.

slingersam
28-04-2009, 23:43
Maybe if more people in Calgary bought from the stores they wouldn't have closed the shop there (one of them). (I know you were for a different reason but I'm trying to make a point.)

In Edmonton we have two GWs and one is #1 for sales in Canada and the other is #2. But then again Edmonton is better then Calgary :p :D


Edit: Sorry I forgot to touch on this:

"if GW didn't make money on it, they wouldn't sell to independant retailers..... the extra 20-30% charged on GW instore prices covers the wages of the staff and the costs of running the shop..."

If they don't have the money to have the shops how are they going to draw in new players? If they don't have the money for staff how are they going to run tournaments?

Ya Edmonton Rocks Calgary's world. Anyway I remember when GW had an auction I saw a guy get a fully painted 4 -5000 point army for about $300.00 Canadian. Also got a full Tirrand army same points for $500.00. Ya that I think was the only time I ever bought anything from GW. I then moved to Cali, and where I live we only have a hobby town, so only 40k and some fantasy.

Tae
28-04-2009, 23:44
I always buy my stuff from GW direct because my local store has a battle bunker with six 6'x4' tables out the back and quite frankly I don't mind paying a small premium to ensure that this facility remains open - because if it ever closes I will simply stop playing the hobby altogether, thus meaning all the money I 'saved' by buying it off ebay etc. will have acutally been money wasted as I wont get to use the items at all.

Dead Man Walking
28-04-2009, 23:45
I only go to the GW store if theres something I have to have right now, otherwise I rely on the store that my gaming club runs. They keep the basics in stock and if you need something they dont have they can order it and get it in about a week. This supports the store that I play in, which is important if I want to continue having a place to play in, and usually I plan out my purchases months ahead of time.

However there are times when I need something right now in order to get it painted in time for a tourney, a last minute change to my army list. (perhaps I usually play at 2250 but this tourney is 3000 points.) When that happens I know GW will have what I am looking for.

The GW store is a bit out of my way in an overly crowded and heavy traffic mall (Mall of Georgia) and a bit of a bother. That and I dont like being pestered by staff when I walk into a store. "Do you play our games? Can I tell you how to play the game badly or with the wrong interpretations of rules?" I am a man, I dont need help or directions so Sod off and keep your damned dirty Redshirt hands off me! :evilgrin:

Luthor
29-04-2009, 00:09
Trying to save a buck and taking shortcuts is the exact reason why we are in a recesion right now.

Not really.

slingersam
29-04-2009, 00:25
I don't get why people keep thinking red shirts are forcing people to play, or are pestering them. Me personally has never had a problem them

Underground
29-04-2009, 00:28
In one sense--and in one sense only--Malorian is right; buying direct from GW stores does leave more money in their pocket. I personally have trouble buying directly from them, as I feel insulted by their prices (as I have long, long before the current Greatswords crisis), and I have no qualms buying at a more reasonable price online--such as buying music cheaply online rather than pay a ridiculous $20 US. (Furthermore, music is a "product" unlike any other, so the comparison is much more complicated here... but I'll stay on topic).

In those circumstances, it is not inappropriate to buy discounted--it is in fact a vital tool of the capitalist marketplace. It basically says to the manufacturer that many people do not find the prices reasonable, and hence will shop at discount prices (or, more grievously, will cease shopping altogether). The prerogative is not the consumers, in this case, who should not feel ethically obligated to support a company that is charging more than many are comfortable with; in this case, the company itself ought to register the decline in their sales, and the growth of sales at discount venues, as a signpost that they are doing something wrong.

Of course, if a customer has no problem with the asking price, then there is no issue about that person buying directly from the store at full retail price. Neither choice is more or less ethical (at least in this example); it is rather a matter of personal preference. But I take issue with the idea that it is the customer's obligation to justify purchases, rather than the other way around. The marketplace does not operate like a charity, and customers should not feel morally obligated to support a company when they do not feel inspired to do so.

Still, despite my respect for his overall point, I really think that Malorian has drawn to broad a line between people buying products in discount, and the cause of the global recession; it's a sloppy comparison and far too simplistic and extreme. And it implies an ethical judgment--drawing a (false) line between discount customers of toy soldiers, and people who took out massive mortgages to buy things they could not afford (...like toy soldiers? :) ); and this equation is also missing the other factors, such as the steady dismantling of government regulation throughout the early 2000's, the vices of wall street's short-selling and profiteering, and the general American ethos, cultivated so carefully, that places far too much emphasis on the pursuit of personal wealth as the means to happiness.

orkz222
29-04-2009, 01:08
Only shop direct for those direct-only blisters I need, last direct purchase was 1mth+ ago and bought the iron warriors shoulder pads and IW conversion blister + the lizardman special character. All the other basic stuffs (troops/paints/wd etc...) I buy them from online stores.

Duke Georgal
29-04-2009, 01:24
You must have a slow car. I can drive from Pittsburgh to Panama City somewhere round 17-18 hours, depending on how many stops I make.

I never drive straight through; I make lots and lots of stops. I always eat at sit down restaurants. I shop at outlet malls along the way. I never make good time.

piratehooker
29-04-2009, 01:32
Yeah, we dont really have many good stores where i live, so its sort of impossible to collect an army unless you buy online. And if you dont have a steady job its really hard to afford an army. I have a feeling that all these price hikes are going to drive off a bunch of younger players. they certainly have me... i was planning on getting some of the new empire models, but now im not so sure i want to spend all that money, when i could just buy second hand models on ebay or a new zune or something like that.

Warboss Antoni
29-04-2009, 01:42
I'm not. It's not going to hurt GW and just gonna show them I don't feel like giving them extra money, and that I'm fed up with prices. Granted, I like the local store, and I do wanna support it, but when the prices are somewhat reasonable I'll do it ( the last model I bought was a corpse cart like 2 months ago, so ). However, examples like the GreatSwords just push the limit and are not buyable. Like I'm sad that I got the WotR book and i'm like, "****, I need way more models...". So I'm gonna go to other retailers and get a reasonable deal ( to hell I'm paying $36 a company for metal models, or $25 for some easily convertable command... )

Dai-Mongar
29-04-2009, 03:01
I used to order from the US GW online a couple of years ago, before the exchange rate went "phut". I used to get around 75 US cents to the NZ dollar, but the US GW prices are about half of the NZ prices, which led to great savings (even with shipping).
Nowadays, online UK indy stores are my best bet. I save about 10% with the exchange rate, and can get free shipping. Hooray for antipodean savings!

Lord Dan
29-04-2009, 03:24
A poor comparison. There is no difference if I have bought a cd online or if I download a cd. In the end I get the same music.


My point (and I'm sure Malorian's subsequent support) was based more on sales from EBay, of which no money goes to GW. I personally buy from GW online, because I'm in south Idaho finishing up school right now and, well, let's face it: there are no GW stores in south Idaho.

Buying from independent retailers is great, and something I advocate highly. I prefer buying from GW, simply because I figure if I'm going to spend $35 I'd rather have GW make a higher profit margin on that sale and hopefully stem the tide of price increases.

Makarion
29-04-2009, 04:15
So, you give more cash to GW in the hope they won't increase prices? I'd think you are encouraging them to keep doing their best to pick your wallet empty, since you seem happy to go along with it.

mattschuur
29-04-2009, 04:18
Now, here's a thing, blowing up all the credit records would, in this instance, fix the current financial situation, regaining the free market.

Actually no it wouldn't. That's like saying you're going to burn down a bank to destroy somebodies life savings. They do keep records in other places, not just in their "one" building, computer or file cabinet. The debt will still be there, it doesn't magically disappear. There is a reason it's in a movie.:p

As far as socialism being a tried and failed policy, that isn't quite true. Read marx, you know, the guy who created socialism, and you'll see that "every" single truly "socialist" state that has come around breaks the most important fundamental law of socialism. Socialism must be started and controlled by the "People" of a state, not a dictator or a minority. The Revolution in Russia was initiated not by a rising up of the masses, but by individuals acting "in place" of the masses, rallying around a few key central figures. The whole point of socialism is that the people get together and run it through themselves without government or state controls, not one all powerful person, that's a dictatorship in socialist clothing. How socialism starts is the most important aspect as it dictates how everything else is managed and there is a big difference between running a country through 1 person then through 100 million. For a comparison, try building a house in say renaissance style. But when drawing up the blue print, you add some greek and roman pieces to the facade. What you get is a perversion of a Renaissance building because you throw in non-Renaissance architecture. And that's what the "Socialist" states that existed are, perversions of socialist policy.

On topic- I buy from my local gaming store mostly because it's close and they offer occasional discounts through leagues.

By the way, you gotta love political debates on wargaming forums.:D
matt schuur

xragg
29-04-2009, 04:49
In the same argument that there hasnt been a "pure" socialist state, there hasnt been a "pure" capitalist state either. Both can only truely exist in theory, just like almost any theoretical extreme. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need...

Elblanco
29-04-2009, 04:50
I was actually looking for a good site to buy from in the US. Since GW stores are a bit over priced, and i do wish i could support them but i just really cant afford to buy in the store. I've been looking online a lot and can only find places in the UK or just don't have enough stock, or just seem kinda shady.

Lord Dan
29-04-2009, 04:52
So, you give more cash to GW in the hope they won't increase prices? I'd think you are encouraging them to keep doing their best to pick your wallet empty, since you seem happy to go along with it.

Or perhaps it has more to do with the fact that 95% of people on this thread alone don't buy directly from GW? If everyone did I sincerely doubt they would increase their prices as much as they do.

Either way my point stands. Assuming you're not buying at a discounted rate, you're paying the same money at an independent shop as you would buying from GW. What's the difference?

Acheron143
29-04-2009, 05:14
Well I honestly haven't bought any serious amount of models from Gamesworkshop in years. My Kroxigor for my Blood Bowl team, and 4 Dark Eldar Cruisers for my fleet about 2 years ago. At the point you hit 10k points in 2 armies, plus 3-5k in 3-4 other armies. One figures he's done his bit for king and country.

Although they've gone and put out new Vampire Counts pieces so I might pick them up. I'd be more excited if I already didn't have VC models that I can't use. I mean they took the whole Manticore out of the army list so I've got two that I'll never get to use.

*shrugs* Old timers don't buy much after awhile.

The Red Scourge
29-04-2009, 05:26
Or perhaps it has more to do with the fact that 95% of people on this thread alone don't buy directly from GW? If everyone did I sincerely doubt they would increase their prices as much as they do.

Ah, but if everyone did, they'd have no reason not to double or triple their prices. They might lose a certain amount of customers, but even losing 50% of their sale when doubling prices, would mean a profit from decreased inventory space/employees/packaging/logistics.

We're just lucky, they prefer to advertise through their own channels, and that a bunch of nerds will work for low wages because its warhammer ;)

brotherAkkyshan
29-04-2009, 05:44
What nobody has yet taken into account is human greed. If everyone bought exclusively from GW they would probably increase prices further and more regulary as they would have a 'captive' market. The more money you give to someone the more mnoney they are going to want! The GW monster, like most large companies is run by 'bean counters', not people who do it for the love of the hobby! Profit is king to these people, if they think they can drain an extra couple of Ģs or $s out of you believe me they will!

NakedBarbarian
29-04-2009, 05:49
I woulda thought in this time of economic woes if you don't by from your local GW won't it simply go under? Warhamer is expensive let alone in times like these when you have to prioritise alot of things before wargaming...

urien
29-04-2009, 06:11
Since the GW store is the WORST and almost SADISTIC option for a location to play,

let me rephrase that for you...

i've been to GW shop once, while i was abroad, and damn it sure is a heaven to 12 year old kids with ADHD syndrome...with staff almost as stressed as those kids and on a deathwish to make me buy couple of landraiders even though i wasnt playing space smurfs. thanks but no thanks,

the only good place to play is a retailers shop/club for tournaments and meeting new players plus your own home when youre friends come with beer/vodka - well im polish so definately both ;) and play couple of 3k-10k multiple side games through whole weekend.

i've never bought a single thing from GW directly- it was always through retailers or online shops- almost seemed cheap when compared to GW prices, although it might change because of all this "not available " in shops and "mail order only" models :/

junx13
29-04-2009, 06:15
What nobody has yet taken into account is human greed. If everyone bought exclusively from GW they would probably increase prices further and more regulary as they would have a 'captive' market. The more money you give to someone the more mnoney they are going to want! The GW monster, like most large companies is run by 'bean counters', not people who do it for the love of the hobby! Profit is king to these people, if they think they can drain an extra couple of Ģs or $s out of you believe me they will!

Exactly!!! Even were there not a financial crisis, the greed of the board of directors would STILL increase prices just to earn profits. There is a reason why every year Sales Targets increase and only in extraordinary circumstances (like a financial crisis) do they come down.

In an ideal world, GW would be run by gamers would increase sales by churning out more quality books and models of different designs etc... unfortunately though, like Pure Socialism and Pure Capitalism, such ideals are the stuff of dreams.. (or in my case, Warhammer fantasy :P).

derv
29-04-2009, 06:40
To me GW is like an old friend. We've had our good times and bad times and still get along. We've even had a few fights in the past but that's OK, because we're great mates. But just recently this good friend of mine has started stealing my stuff and urinates on my cat. I'm now looking for a new friend.

parus_ater
29-04-2009, 09:22
Now, here's a thing, blowing up all the credit records would, in this instance, fix the current financial situation, regaining the free market.

Actually no it wouldn't. That's like saying you're going to burn down a bank to destroy somebodies life savings. They do keep records in other places, not just in their "one" building, computer or file cabinet. The debt will still be there, it doesn't magically disappear. There is a reason it's in a movie.:p
r

Do you think that's maybe why I used the word "all"? My tongue was planted firmly in my cheek, by the way. That means I was being Ironic, look it up.... which brings me to the next point, it was in a book.:p

Netherghoul
29-04-2009, 10:02
well the projects I had in mind with GW stuff has been put in the closet for a while.
I'd much rather spend my hard earned buck on other companies miniatures instead now.
supporting indy stores is what I have always done and always will.
And my love for GW stores is not really realistic, just hate them with a passion.
matter of taste/opinion.

Kill-Freedom
29-04-2009, 10:05
I buy form my local independent store these days, as it directly still supports GW, and keeps the hobby going in my local area

If he doesnt have what i want, he orders in for me, and its always there the next time i go in

ebay is good when trying to find metal models for cheap, i doubt id buy plastic on it

Fenrir
29-04-2009, 10:19
Buy your stuff where you want, play how you want... if GW can't make money from something with the mark-ups they deal in then they deserve to go under, recession or not!

My thoughts concur with this. Especially as they are whacking the prices up again, so why I should give one about a company that doesn't give one about it's customers?

selone
29-04-2009, 10:22
I buys some stuff from ebay, soem stuff from GW. I don't have enough of a wage to be able to buy all my purchases from GW direct, but I feel it would be wrong to not give them custom :)

Dead Man Walking
29-04-2009, 11:26
To me GW is like an old friend. We've had our good times and bad times and still get along. We've even had a few fights in the past but that's OK, because we're great mates. But just recently this good friend of mine has started stealing my stuff and urinates on my cat. I'm now looking for a new friend.

GW keeps coming to my home and asking for me to spare a few extra bucks, urinates on the floor around the toilet, vomits in my sink, drinks my beer and steals my car.

Malorian
29-04-2009, 13:18
Just to be clear, most of my statements were aimed at the internet sites and not the retailers that GW suppies.

When people buy off of people on the internet and GW doesn't see a dime from it I don't think their is any denying that it hurts GW financially, and when you hurt a comany financially bad things are bound to happen.

When people buy off of independent retailers GW does get their share however you are not supporting the store which brings in new players, or the staff that run tournaments.

Now I know there are bunkers and stores out there that do their best to bring in new players but they are in no way as effective as the actual GW store, and these clubs also run their own tournaments, but only GW staff can put on the great ones that come with sneak peeks and full hall of heros support.

W0lf
29-04-2009, 13:20
Ive always brought from my local store, neglecting discount to support them as i often game there.

As of price increase im moving to a discounted retailer. Sorry but im not paying EVEN more then i do ATM. Which reminds me.. maybe i will do a guard army in the end... Ģ9 for 10 models hmmmm

LordofLizardmen
29-04-2009, 14:08
When people buy off of people on the internet and GW doesn't see a dime from it I don't think their is any denying that it hurts GW financially, and when you hurt a comany financially bad things are bound to happen.


Thats what I'm waiting for. Since my models comes from bother bartertown and ebay I know when GW goes under I can unload it without too much hassle. And Who wants to pay full price? I don't. I SAVE money you know, since you keep saying the economy is sooo bad, I don't think its a wise decision to go throwing your money around like that.

When GW goes under, everyone will be happy cause then Fantasy gaming can go back to its proper roots and other miniature companies which are by miles better than GW pricewise and others can step in.


My point (and I'm sure Malorian's subsequent support) was based more on sales from EBay, of which no money goes to GW

Which is good. GW should know the bounderies and not start to **** people off business wise and hobby wise. When you hit it where GW hurt, then they will either topple over (which I'm hoping) or learn. Since they seem immune to learning, toppling is the only why left.

Malorian
29-04-2009, 14:29
You might like the prices of other ranges but it's the actual game that keeps people to GW, and if you want the rules supported in a way that you can have national tournaments based off the same rules then you need GW to stay afloat.

Feefait
29-04-2009, 14:42
i don;t have a gw store near here to even have the option. i only buy form our lgs as a courtesy if i game there, or if i need a blister of something straight away for a game. otherwise it's all online. a good portion of my stuff for wood elves isn't even gw. i've been building them off discontinued confrontation stuff or reaper. the prices at "official" gw sites and stores is just too much for me. i'm all for support, but i;m not paying more to do it. besides, why do we even need gw specific stores?

Lewzardman
29-04-2009, 14:55
I always buy from discounters / ebay. I buy paint and glue from a local independant retailer but, barring the occasional impulse buy, that's about it. There is no games workshop where i live, so I only have the local indy, but i still choose to buy the majority from online discounters.

People say we need to support GW, but i don't as i don't see them supporting us, the veteran hobbyists. Rather they try to squeeze every penny they can out of loyal hobbyists, so I in turn try to save every penny I can on my hobby.

Duke Georgal
29-04-2009, 15:02
Now I know there are bunkers and stores out there that do their best to bring in new players but they are in no way as effective as the actual GW store.

I have to disagree with this statement.

There are no GW stores in Florida, but we have an incredibly active gaming community. Independent retailers, if their business strategy is sound, are very effective at bringing new players into the hobby.

LordofLizardmen
29-04-2009, 15:08
You might like the prices of other ranges but it's the actual game that keeps people to GW, and if you want the rules supported in a way that you can have national tournaments based off the same rules then you need GW to stay afloat.

I haven't gotten any of the "rules" and I'm still using the 6th edition ones, because hey, they don't disapear when new ones come out :O

I don't need GW to support the "rules". All I need is my own outdated rules and army books, by miniature club and our own imagination to tweek the rules. Presto I'm playing a game.

Imagination!

warflag
29-04-2009, 15:23
I haven't gotten any of the "rules" and I'm still using the 6th edition ones, because hey, they don't disapear when new ones come out :O

I don't need GW to support the "rules". All I need is my own outdated rules and army books, by miniature club and our own imagination to tweek the rules. Presto I'm playing a game.

Imagination!

Seconded.

I havenīt seen any big rule changes in the last 10 years. Itīs more of a forth and back, tanks rule, tanks donīt rule, now itīs infantry, then itīs the fast attack style. This is something which can be done with a variation of scenarios aswell.
In 40k the last rulebook and the respective codices have nothing that coght my attention really. Most donīt even have significant additions to the armylists.
I think fourth edition with its codices had everything needed for a fun game. Obviously the GW rulesets arenīt the best in wargaming, so who gives a flying crap abot the rules flaws?

The whole GW gaming universe has put out so stuff over the last 25 years that itīll keep me busy til my pension to get my hands on all of it, play with it and paint it and whatnot.

If GW went boom tonight, I would not even notice acouple of months if it were not for the internet. And then Iīd shrug and start to complete my collection, which then would be at least possible.


As for tournaments: Thereīs a lot of chess tournaments out there. The last chess edition is quite dated afaik ;)
Cheers
Bart

kyussinchains
29-04-2009, 15:43
I'm wondering how people selling stuff on ebay somehow deprives GW of cash..... the way it works is ebay seller buys stuff from GW, either trade, discounted or full price, right there is where GW gets their money, if said person goes on to sell the goods to someone else either for a profit, or to recoup some of the cost of buying them, it's not like GW didnt make any money on the initial sale......

I am not buying direct from GW or a GW store, but as they are the only producer of citadel miniatures and the warhammer games, I AM putting money into the company, as I don't buy alternative miniatures from other manufacturuers, GW are making money from me, a profit is a profit!

LordofLizardmen
29-04-2009, 16:02
I'm wondering how people selling stuff on ebay somehow deprives GW of cash.....

You don't understand business well.

If a potential customer can buy a whole army for 50% or more off than what he would be paying for retail, that money is lost to GW and never returned. Regardless if the person selling them, which means they are fed up of the hobby, don't want to do it more etc, they are losing on a new player.

As people keep buying from Ebay, GW keeps losing money on new players, stopping stores and reducing sales. GW sales have dropped and them trying to stop ebay sales have failed.

Corporal Punishment
29-04-2009, 16:35
I make it a point to not buy anything directly from GW and for good reason.

It is obvious to me that the company is going to continue to struggle. It has fallen into the trap that so many other publicly traded companies fall into, earnings growth. GW's shareholders are institutional and they want growth and earnings. There is tremendous pressure from these owners. The problem is that you can only grow earnings so far when it comes to wargames. Let's face it, this hobby is not for everyone. These products are not soft drinks or toilet paper. The customer base is quite limited and competition is very high.

What would be best for the hobby would be for the company to fail miserably. I know many will say that it would hurt the hobby but you have to think this through fully. There is value in the company, someone would buy the company (at a discount) and hopefully take it back to the private arena where the pressures to grow earnings are somewhat more subdued and the focus can be put back on the hobby rather than the income statement.

Corporal Punishment
29-04-2009, 16:41
You don't understand business well.

If a potential customer can buy a whole army for 50% or more off than what he would be paying for retail, that money is lost to GW and never returned. Regardless if the person selling them, which means they are fed up of the hobby, don't want to do it more etc, they are losing on a new player.

As people keep buying from Ebay, GW keeps losing money on new players, stopping stores and reducing sales. GW sales have dropped and them trying to stop ebay sales have failed.

This idea is sound as long as you don't consider the fact that the buyer might never buy at retail price.

I've bought and sold a lot of GW stuff on ebay over the years. Their pricing structure does a lot to encourage ebay sales.

Malorian
29-04-2009, 16:56
I haven't gotten any of the "rules" and I'm still using the 6th edition ones, because hey, they don't disapear when new ones come out :O

I don't need GW to support the "rules". All I need is my own outdated rules and army books, by miniature club and our own imagination to tweek the rules. Presto I'm playing a game.

Imagination!

Keep in mind this is just my opinion, but I think it's fair to say you are a minority and that most people use the most current rules.

I would also say that a lot of people are drawn in and kept in by the changing/new rules/units and that to remove this would greatly hurt the hobby.

You and your buddies might be alright using old rules but then the hobby dies with you. Personally I'm looking forward to playing against my kids.



"Their pricing structure does a lot to encourage ebay sales."

They came out with BfSP (easily make two cheap armies for hardly anything) and yet people still buy them online. How can GW win when it will ALWAYS be cheaper on ebay?

Threeshades
29-04-2009, 17:06
I bought GW miniatures for about an unreasonable amount of money a few days ago from a british discounter. That will be my last major investment and I only bough that stuff because it was only little more than half of the current store price in Germany.
I will only buy occasional filler units in the future at best. So I think I'm thus far done with spending money on models. And if the occasion turns up that i need something i will probably go to on of the local stores. We have two of them in town, a retailer and a GW store. I wouldn't mind too much if the GW store vanished. I prefer playing at a club or at home, and the retailer also offers a few tables.

Sarah S
29-04-2009, 17:09
When people buy off of people on the internet and GW doesn't see a dime from it I don't think their is any denying that it hurts GW financially, and when you hurt a comany financially bad things are bound to happen.

When people buy off of independent retailers GW does get their share however you are not supporting the store which brings in new players, or the staff that run tournaments.


That's what happens when there is a large pre-existing supply of materials already in the marketplace because the producing corporation has been so successful in the past!

GW has already been paid and appropriately compensated for every miniature in circulation. If their business model can't deal with resale of personal property after it leaves the store (because customers are quitting the games, selling off their collections, etc.) then their business model is flawed and they need to take action to fix it.

It would be kind of like saying that every time someone sells their car it hurts GM or Ford. Resale price is a fact of the market, and GW by maintaining their monopoly and having such outrageous prices have ensured a high resale price. There is nothing morally objectionable to reselling private goods.

In my opinion, this is one of the biggest reasons that GW has been pushing for plastic models lately. The market for second-hand plastic miniatures online is sure to be significantly less than the market for metal models. Hell a metal figure from 20 years ago looks just as good now as it did then once you dip it in some Simple Green. A plastic model? Not so much. I think that almost the entire impetus behind the shift to plastic is a deliberate attempt to demolish the retail price of the collections of miniatures we own. This will allow them to destroy the resale market without recourse to the usual strategy of lowering prices to push the resellers out.

In the past, if you got fed up with GW games, you could sell off your army and recoup at least part of what you paid to acquire it. Now, in the age of plastic, you'll be stuck with them - forced either to keep it or junk it. Either way GW wins...

My unit of 30 metal Stormvermin will almost certainly fetch a high price for the next 10 years if I chose to sell them. I don't expect to see anyone selling plastic Stormvermin ever.

Lord Dan
29-04-2009, 17:17
When GW goes under, everyone will be happy cause then Fantasy gaming can go back to its proper roots and other miniature companies which are by miles better than GW pricewise and others can step in.

I can't stand this mentality. If you honestly hate GW so much, why on earth are you spending time in the GW forums? For that matter, why are you buying their models- discounted or not? If you buy them because you like the models then you obviously have a vested interest in GW staying afloat, because if they don't then you don't get their models. And as for superior companies "stepping in", it's not like GW is some sadistic dictatorship preventing the advancement of other companies. In a capitalist market if a company is truly better than the rest, then it will naturally do better.

Buy your models where you want, but you have no right to say: "GW needs to crash and burn." In fact I would go so far as to say that the only people who have any right to complain about GW's prices are the people actually paying the prices.

huitzilopochtli
29-04-2009, 17:21
First of all thanks to whoever moved this thread - didn't realize how misplaced it was until I saw it in the light of day.

Guess I'm not surprised a large portion of people are still buying GW, but I thought it would be more for convenience than as an attempt at keeping them afloat. As long as I see 8 - 12 year olds being bought entire armies by gullible parents I have no fears that my GW store is going to close.


Perhaps someone should make a sticky thread with links to online stores? That would be a good idea I feel.

Actually I was hoping that this is where the thread would lead. Has this been done before? It would be nice to give people starting a new army a chance to do so quickly and reasonably cheaply by having information on where to buy, easy conversions etc.

yabbadabba
29-04-2009, 17:31
When GW goes under, everyone will be happy cause then Fantasy gaming can go back to its proper roots and other miniature companies which are by miles better than GW pricewise and others can step in.

Now thats funny, not to say ungrateful. GW have done more positive things for the wargames market in the past 25+ years than anyone else.


Which is good. GW should know the bounderies and not start to **** people off business wise and hobby wise. When you hit it where GW hurt, then they will either topple over (which I'm hoping) or learn. Since they seem immune to learning, toppling is the only why left.

I cannot understand why the bitterness? GW are selling things. If you don't like it, don't buy it. It's not like a religion or the civil administration.

LordofLizardmen
29-04-2009, 17:45
You and your buddies might be alright using old rules but then the hobby dies with you. Personally I'm looking forward to playing against my kids.


And you assume that I won't be playing with my kids? Whats there to stop me from playing with my kids the same rules? What a stupid assumption you make.

And the "Hobby" didn't start with GW, won't end with GW and hasn't been carried on by GW.

Malorian
29-04-2009, 18:24
And you assume that I won't be playing with my kids? Whats there to stop me from playing with my kids the same rules? What a stupid assumption you make.

And the "Hobby" didn't start with GW, won't end with GW and hasn't been carried on by GW.

Something tells me when a teenager sees your tattered, decades old, rule book and had the option of the flashy new one that the choice would be an obvious one.

Sure you can force your kid to play (even make it part of their weekly chores) but if you want them to stay in the hobby they are going to need to be interested in the game themselves, and the ever changing and new rules that GW provides is the key (not a bunch of old men hiding in a basement with their ancient texts...).

Tagis
29-04-2009, 18:33
The people with tattered rule books will be people who have bought the new ones.

LordofLizardmen
29-04-2009, 18:33
Something tells me when a teenager sees your tattered, decades old, rule book and had the option of the flashy new one that the choice would be an obvious one.

Sure you can force your kid to play (even make it part of their weekly chores) but if you want them to stay in the hobby they are going to need to be interested in the game themselves, and the ever changing and new rules that GW provides is the key (not a bunch of old men hiding in a basement with their ancient texts...).


:rolleyes:

Either you're someone just trolling for the hell of it or you don't know what you're talking about.

Teenages are not all the same so your generalization you made on the top is out.

GW didn't exist in the 1970's when Fantasy gaming was there. I as a child of the 1980's didn't see GW till the late 90's. Between lets say 1988 to 1997, I saw neither hair nor hide of GW. I got into fantasy gaming because it was what my friends dad used to play with their buddies and that was fun when they included us in it too.

I guess I may be a different type of person for you since your holy grail GW didn't exist back then.

And I like the last comment, shows that you're now just pulling insults since you so brutally lost you're arguments and are just now calling names.

stroller
29-04-2009, 18:53
I'm with Lord Dan & yabba on this one...

I'm buying from GW because I enjoy the games and I like a lot of the figures. I like other games and figures and I get them too. If I didn't - why would I be here?

So far as I know, GW make more money out of selling wargaming than anyone else. Maybe... just maybe... that's because ... sit down for this... they're better at it...

Sometimes I buy in store, sometimes local gamestore sometimes online sometimes ebay. I like a bargain. I buy what I want and can afford. I'll carry on that way too. Oh, a final thought. I SEEM to recall buying the third edition box set for Ģ30 about 10 years ago. The equivalent is now Ģ40 - 25% increase over 10 years, 33% if you want to be picky the other way. Ģ1 a year. 10 years ago I earned half the salary I do now, and you could get 23 mars bars for thruppence... (I exaggerate but you get the point?)

Malorian
29-04-2009, 18:59
:rolleyes:

Either you're someone just trolling for the hell of it or you don't know what you're talking about.

Teenages are not all the same so your generalization you made on the top is out.

GW didn't exist in the 1970's when Fantasy gaming was there. I as a child of the 1980's didn't see GW till the late 90's. Between lets say 1988 to 1997, I saw neither hair nor hide of GW. I got into fantasy gaming because it was what my friends dad used to play with their buddies and that was fun when they included us in it too.

I guess I may be a different type of person for you since your holy grail GW didn't exist back then.

And I like the last comment, shows that you're now just pulling insults since you so brutally lost you're arguments and are just now calling names.

Just using logic (might want to give it a try...).

Do you really think GW would have done as well as it has if it didn't have all the updated rules, new units, and flashy stores to draw people in?

I can't tell you how many times I've read about people that played fantasy or 40k, got bored, then a new rule book (army or main) came out and drew them back in. Or the number of people that saw a new unit or read about the new way an army works and just had to play them.


I certainly also read to rare post like yours, people holding on to their old rules and swearing GW is the devil. Typically they are as soft spoken as you are too :rolleyes:

LordofLizardmen
29-04-2009, 19:06
I'm though with Malorian as he refuses to be civil and is acting like the GW shill would.

Malorian
29-04-2009, 19:10
I'm though with Malorian as he refuses to be civil and is acting like the GW shill would.

*Calgar high-fives Malorian*

parus_ater
29-04-2009, 19:20
*Calgar high-fives Malorian*

I find that one should always act as a Gentleman, even when one is not a Gentleman. Quite a talent there, Gingerbaby, flaming two folk at once.

yabbadabba
29-04-2009, 19:21
I'm though with Malorian as he refuses to be civil and is acting like the GW shill would.

Your comments aren't all that either. I still can't understand the bitterness you have against a company making a non-essential luxury product? Try explaining with less emotion and more logical arguments.


(not a bunch of old men hiding in a basement with their ancient texts...).
Actually, for years across the world, this was the time honoured way of enjoying toy soldiers. It was easier to go to school and declare you were a geek and played with toy soldiers than it was to get an invite to established gaming groups and clubs.

Malorian
29-04-2009, 19:33
I find that one should always act as a Gentleman, even when one is not a Gentleman. Quite a talent there, Gingerbaby, flaming two folk at once.

It's all about the multi-tasking :D

*Sigmar high-fives Malorian*


Warhammer is a great game and people should be happy that GW does so much to come out with new models and rules and keep it alive and fresh.

The fact that people seem to go out of their way to bring it down really irks me..

5Pointer
29-04-2009, 19:49
I've recently made the switch to purely buying from a third-party supplier online. Partially as a result of the recent price rises (covered already by many more eloquent than me), partially because of the dwindling support model wise for specialist games (not talking new models - just removing old ones from sale, eg halfling scout) but partially because I don't game in the GW stores, I don't like most of the staff and I hate the whole experience of going into a GW store.

I like GW products and most likely will for the foreseeable future - I just don't want to deal with the hot air and bad attitude that I get in GW stores.

Templar Ben
29-04-2009, 20:22
Oh my. I didn't know about this thread and it shows up down here where the business people are at 7 pages? Let's see if we can fix this.


If GW makes less money they have to do one of two things:

1. Get better to get more buyers (wouldn't matter because you people would still just buy online)

or 2. Scale back. If you think you have bad support now just think how it would be if they had to let go some of the developement team.


Better yet lets all just buy cheap models from places like Reaper and/or just make all the rest of the stuff we need to play. I'm sure GW will continue to support and update the rules for something which makes them no money :rolleyes:

So companies only have two options to falling revenue? Interesting. Seems like being a CEO is just a coin flip then.

On the first, if GW were better in the sense that there was more value in the model then the cost the items would fly off the shelf. Would people buy at a discount? Sure. Some people think the item only has worth at 20% below the price and some want to get the most models for $100. If you are not gaming in a store you have moral obligation to buy from that store.

Why is it scale back means cut development? Why isn't scale back, close stores that don't generate enough revenue to justify staying open? Why isn't scale back, find ways to combine existing sprues into new armies so you can release new armies without cutting new dies?

So we now have a false dichotomy of buy direct from GW or have GW not produce games. How about GW is forced to produce games of such value that one must purchase them.


Try coming to Fort McMurray and saying the recession is all hype...

I will refrain from drawing conclusions about your town being full of people that feel it necessary to support failing business models.


I'm with Malorian. I find it amusing the people on these forums think that GW going under would somehow make things better for them. It's like they forget that GW supplies the models they're buying on other sites, and if GW went down those sites would stop selling GW products.

And someone else would pick up the IP and make the game. It would not be the first giant that fell. TSR went under and WotC bought them. If GW ever got to that point, there are many that would jump at the chance.


I buy my models and paint from GW, and I buy my glue and basing supplies from wherever I can find them. You can say what you want, but assuming I have "money to spare" would be naive- I just get to buy less models than you do. I do, however, walk away with satisfaction similar to buying a CD instead of downloading it from teh interwebz.

I am just as satisfied buying a CD from a yard sale as from Tower Records. It is the same music. I don't have a need to waste money. You obviously have either money to spare or you truly think that a model is worth the price GW charges.


A great comparison.

That is a stupid comparison. If someone said they don't buy from GW and instead they borrow their friends and then cast their own at home then it would be a great comparison. Your inability to use logic is staggering.


Just to be clear, most of my statements were aimed at the internet sites and not the retailers that GW suppies.

When people buy off of people on the internet and GW doesn't see a dime from it I don't think their is any denying that it hurts GW financially, and when you hurt a comany financially bad things are bound to happen.

When people buy off of independent retailers GW does get their share however you are not supporting the store which brings in new players, or the staff that run tournaments.

Now I know there are bunkers and stores out there that do their best to bring in new players but they are in no way as effective as the actual GW store, and these clubs also run their own tournaments, but only GW staff can put on the great ones that come with sneak peeks and full hall of heros support.

So if I buy Pretorians from a guy on eBay it hurts GW? GW was not going to see my money anyway and a third party got some money. GW stores do nothing to make wargaming a better hobby. They bring in kids and burn them over two years when they know most will quit. The kids then sell what they can on eBay except for the few that decide to stick with it.

There is a great deal of difference in fleecing kids and actually growing the customer base. GW knows they won't keep the kids and they say so. They just milk as much as they can and bring in more.


You might like the prices of other ranges but it's the actual game that keeps people to GW, and if you want the rules supported in a way that you can have national tournaments based off the same rules then you need GW to stay afloat.

So there can be no tournaments without GW? Hmmmm. That is an interesting take you have there. Adepticon couldn't exist? I agree that GW prefers to run their own tournaments but that is for the same reason that GW prefers to have their own conventions. They suffer by comparison when you see them side by side with other games.


I can't stand this mentality. If you honestly hate GW so much, why on earth are you spending time in the GW forums? For that matter, why are you buying their models- discounted or not? If you buy them because you like the models then you obviously have a vested interest in GW staying afloat, because if they don't then you don't get their models. And as for superior companies "stepping in", it's not like GW is some sadistic dictatorship preventing the advancement of other companies. In a capitalist market if a company is truly better than the rest, then it will naturally do better.

Well I won't bother trying to explain to you first mover advantage, captive markets, barriers to entry, or synergistic forces. Now that you are down here where the wild things are, why don't you take a look around and learn a bit.


Buy your models where you want, but you have no right to say: "GW needs to crash and burn." In fact I would go so far as to say that the only people who have any right to complain about GW's prices are the people actually paying the prices.

So if they are paying higher prices on eBay because of GW raising their prices then they can't complain? Interesting.


It's all about the multi-tasking :D

*Sigmar high-fives Malorian*


Warhammer is a great game and people should be happy that GW does so much to come out with new models and rules and keep it alive and fresh.

The fact that people seem to go out of their way to bring it down really irks me..

Your ability to flame not withstanding, why don't you explain why it irks you that people want to bring down GW. What has GW done that makes you think that it is not deserving of scorn.

I personally don't have an interest in GW as I own nary a share but just as I don't care if it fails, I don't care if someone else wishes to bring them down.

If Warhammer (and by extension 40K) is so fresh then why does it use such an outdated engine? Epic is much more advanced in gameplay.

LordofLizardmen
29-04-2009, 20:33
*Calgar high-fives Malorian*

Actually, no. I'm back and I'm ready again. This flamer or troll or whatever have you isn't bringing me down or wining anything.


Do you really think GW would have done as well as it has if it didn't have all the updated rules, new units, and flashy stores to draw people in?

I can't tell you how many times I've read about people that played fantasy or 40k, got bored, then a new rule book (army or main) came out and drew them back in. Or the number of people that saw a new unit or read about the new way an army works and just had to play them.


I dunno where in Bouney town Alberta you are in at, but Field of Glory, you know by Osprey who make those historical books for those who can read?, have done much better are a hit with place other than GW. I doubt you know of them, but the score much high attendance numbers than the GW tourneys. O how about Sakura-con? Or how about Penny-Arcade's convention? They offer a ton more games than GW, have a lot more attendance than GW or anything else GW can provide. Guess companies are doing much better than a tween's salary can provide right?

The fact is if you take a look outside of booney town Alberta, there is much much more than GW. Of course if you want to be like a turtle and hid in your shell with your fingers in your ears and shout "I love GW!" then its no fault of ours what delusional fantasy world you live in.

Malorian
29-04-2009, 21:11
Well no use replying to templar ben as he simply quoted everything I said and asked things that I've already answered. Instead I'll just summarize everything again:

-GW makes a great game which a lot of people enjoy
-You can buy their stuff online for really cheap
-If you do that then GW makes less money
-You can buy their stuff from ind. retailers
-If you do that then GW makes less money that would normally support staff and stores
-Less stores means less new players
-Less new players means less money for GW
-Less new players and less staff mean less tournaments
-Less tournaments means less new players and less old players
-Less players and less money eventually leads to no GW


If you don't like the game then go ahead and play whatever one you do like, just stay away from GW web sites trying to convince actual players to do things that will ruin their hobby.

I you do like the game then take heed of my warning.

Sarah S
29-04-2009, 21:12
Actually, no. I'm back and I'm ready again. This flamer or troll or whatever have you isn't bringing me down or wining anything.



I dunno where in Bouney town Alberta you are in at, but Field of Glory, you know by Osprey who make those historical books for those who can read?, have done much better are a hit with place other than GW. I doubt you know of them, but the score much high attendance numbers than the GW tourneys. O how about Sakura-con? Or how about Penny-Arcade's convention? They offer a ton more games than GW, have a lot more attendance than GW or anything else GW can provide. Guess companies are doing much better than a tween's salary can provide right?

The fact is if you take a look outside of booney town Alberta, there is much much more than GW. Of course if you want to be like a turtle and hid in your shell with your fingers in your ears and shout "I love GW!" then its no fault of ours what delusional fantasy world you live in.

I can't tell if I agree or disagree with you. Do you think you could format your post a little better so that it might be legible to those interested in reading it?

LordofLizardmen
29-04-2009, 21:18
I can't tell if I agree or disagree with you. Do you think you could format your post a little better so that it might be legible to those interested in reading it?

If you're interesting in a part I talked let me know and then I can type it again.

Faeslayer
29-04-2009, 21:28
Your ability to flame not withstanding, why don't you explain why it irks you that people want to bring down GW. What has GW done that makes you think that it is not deserving of scorn.

I just think a lot of the scorn is OTT. We're talking about toys here, and some of the anger over the prices is coming across, to me, as unduly fierce. Heck, "deserving of scorn" seems a bit much from here.

Hoping the entire company goes bankrupt, out of spite, is downright silly.

I know it's the Internet, and that we all like to rant about things. I'd just like everyone to keep things in perspective, and save the capital-O Outrage for the real injustices in the world, eh?*

*like the new G.I.Joe movie's Cobra Commander mask. WTF?

Lord Dan
29-04-2009, 21:55
So if they are paying higher prices on eBay because of GW raising their prices then they can't complain?

You can complain all you want. I just think it's silly for you to complain about paying $25 on EBay when others are paying $35 buying from GW. A discount is a discount.

And before anyone else jumps on my CD buying comparison- it's fine if you disagree with it, but calling it a "stupid comparison" or "completely outrageous" is just over the top and unnecessary (especially since you would now be about the 5th or 6th person to say so).

Templar Ben
29-04-2009, 22:25
Well no use replying to templar ben as he simply quoted everything I said and asked things that I've already answered. Instead I'll just summarize everything again:

That is one way to avoid the questions.


-GW makes a great game which a lot of people enjoy

Define great. I would agree that GW makes a game that has tremendous market penetration due in no small part to first mover advantage. I agree that many people enjoy the games.


-You can buy their stuff online for really cheap
-If you do that then GW makes less money

GW has lower revenue. That is okay if they have lower costs due to sales which they will as they close stores that under perform.


-You can buy their stuff from ind. retailers
-If you do that then GW makes less money that would normally support staff and stores

And the independent store makes more money that will support staff and stores. Buying for a different channel doesn't hurt the company.


-Less stores means less new players
-Less new players means less money for GW

Less stores does not mean fewer new players on its face. If stores are required for games to grow then one would expect to see PP stores, D&D stores, and Thane stores. Growth is primarily through word of mouth. What GW offers is a venue that can run for a long time at a loss where one is only allowed to play GW games, GW's way.


-Less new players and less staff mean less tournaments
-Less tournaments means less new players and less old players
-Less players and less money eventually leads to no GW

It was pointed out to you already that there is a large tournament scene that has nothing to do with GW. If there were cash prizes perhaps but even then it would be a very different hobby then exists now.

Less money doesn't not equal no GW. It would equal a smaller GW perhaps without a retail footprint. Your lack of business acumen is really showing.


If you don't like the game then go ahead and play whatever one you do like, just stay away from GW web sites trying to convince actual players to do things that will ruin their hobby.

Is this a GW website? GW did have a website with forums but they shut those down because they couldn't control the message. GW doesn't like any environment where they don't have control. Why does the GW website here have sections for games you can't buy or play at a GW store?

What hobby will be ruined exactly? The hobby of paying too much for GW models perhaps? The wargaming hobby will be fine with or without GW.


I you do like the game then take heed of my warning.

The prophet has spoken.


I just think a lot of the scorn is OTT. We're talking about toys here, and some of the anger over the prices is coming across, to me, as unduly fierce. Heck, "deserving of scorn" seems a bit much from here.

Hoping the entire company goes bankrupt, out of spite, is downright silly.

I know it's the Internet, and that we all like to rant about things. I'd just like everyone to keep things in perspective, and save the capital-O Outrage for the real injustices in the world, eh?*

*like the new G.I.Joe movie's Cobra Commander mask. WTF?


It is due to a significant decrease in the value of the customer in GW's eyes according to their actions. People that have been GW's biggest fans have posted on how they feel betrayed. That is why there is scorn. Some people truly feel like GW turned a corner.

Templar Ben
29-04-2009, 22:30
You can complain all you want. I just think it's silly for you to complain about paying $25 on EBay when others are paying $35 buying from GW. A discount is a discount.

And an overpriced item is still overpriced. I think it is silly for people to pay $35 which is why GW continues to sell at that price.


And before anyone else jumps on my CD buying comparison- it's fine if you disagree with it, but calling it a "stupid comparison" or "completely outrageous" is just over the top and unnecessary (especially since you would now be about the 5th or 6th person to say so).

So do you or do you not think it is a "stupid comparison" looking back? I am curious if you truly think that buying from a different source is like copyright infringement or if you have now reconsidered that point.

Foolish Mortal
30-04-2009, 08:10
I do most, if not all my buying on-line, simply for the discount.

My closest store is a GW (York), and there is no local FLGS within easy travel distance for me (no transport), so really I don't have an option - why pay full price when I can get the same thing cheaper? I may have to wait a few days to get it, but GW have pretty much priced me out of the impulse buy market nowadays anyway.

I may like the products, but these days, I pretty much couldn't care less about the company anymore. Part of me wants to see them get their act together and become the company they should be, but part of me feels they have had their chances and blown them time & again.

Atrum Angelus
30-04-2009, 08:27
I buy from the GW store, mostly because I'm there often for games, but also because there's no difference in price at any of the non-GW gaming stores I've been to in town or elsewhere. Sure, Comics America in Winnipeg likes to advertise that it's cheaper and technically it is (by $.01), but I rather support my store.

I've done some shopping around on the internet, but as I geologist, I'm rarely actually home when stuff arrives. Which causes problems, because when I get home and find the "pick-up" slip, its too late and been returned to sender. If I order FW, I can have it sent to the GW in town, and they'll hold it for me (another reason for me to support the store).

EDIT:
On a side note, I do buy most of my scenery stuff from local hobby/model shops. There is a great model railroad shop I go to for scenery stuff (woodland scenics, etc.)


Good Heavens! 10.25%! That is insane.

How did this happen to Chicago?

I complain about the 6% I am stuck with!

In Canada it's frequently over 10%. In Manitoba, it's 12%, but I remember when it was 14%.


No it's not. It's the silliest comparison I have read in a long time.

Downloading music (theoretically) at least is a violation of copyright (in most jurisdictions) and (allegedly) does harm to the original maker of the music.

Buying from discount stores? Who do you think sold their stock to those discount stores in the first place? GW is still making their nickel off of every discount sale and there's nothing shady going on.

Unless, you're like me and download music and still pay for it, via iTunes.

neXus6
30-04-2009, 11:56
Compared to what I used to spend in GW stores it's dropped to pretty much nothing now.
If I need something there and then, or something that can only be bought direct from GW I might but that hasn't happened in a long time.

If I can order something I need from an online retailer I will, but I've all but stopped buying any more GW models from any source at the moment.

Major Thom
30-04-2009, 12:46
I would prefer to buy things locally, however when you catch your local independent charging more than the suggested list price for products it makes it that much more difficult. Considering that the other the other shops in the area are more than 25 miles away and an hour plus drive, I have been getting more online.

yabbadabba
30-04-2009, 15:28
I think it is silly for people to pay $35 which is why GW continues to sell at that price.

Ben. Really. Honestly mate. Don't you think that grown adults buying toy soldiers is in essence a bit silly?
I keep asking myself that same question everytime I pick some more up ... ...

kyussinchains
30-04-2009, 16:47
You don't understand business well.

If a potential customer can buy a whole army for 50% or more off than what he would be paying for retail, that money is lost to GW and never returned. Regardless if the person selling them, which means they are fed up of the hobby, don't want to do it more etc, they are losing on a new player.

As people keep buying from Ebay, GW keeps losing money on new players, stopping stores and reducing sales. GW sales have dropped and them trying to stop ebay sales have failed.

I'm not a business expert, I'm an engineer, I understand logic and mathematics, what people seem to be missing is that to get these items onto ebay, they must be purchased from games workshop.... if it's via trade, it's at an approximate 30% discount, which GW would not support if they were not making a profit on.

the person then sells it on ebay, games workshop couldn't care less what they make on it, they've made their money in the initial sale.

in your case if someone sells their army off because they get bored of the hobby, GW made the money on the initial sale, that could be argued about second hand selling of anything... there are still the same number of miniatures out there....

by your logic if I gave away my miniatures to someone else that would be hurting GW in some way? what if I dropped dead and my children decided to use my miniatures to play with? I still had to pay for them, it's not like I'm making illegal copies of them and selling those

Lord Dan
30-04-2009, 17:20
So do you or do you not think it is a "stupid comparison" looking back? I am curious if you truly think that buying from a different source is like copyright infringement or if you have now reconsidered that point.

No, I still think it's a fine comparison. I was comparing the fact that downloading music and buying off of EBay see none of that money going to the manufacturer, which was the only point I made.

So now, Ben, looking back, do you think you might have been a tad rude? Do you still think it's a "stupid comparison"? I'm curious if you truly think that anywhere in any of my posts I ever said the words "copyright infringement" or if in your haste to get a sarcastic comment out you generated those words yourself.

Templar Ben
30-04-2009, 18:07
Ben. Really. Honestly mate. Don't you think that grown adults buying toy soldiers is in essence a bit silly?
I keep asking myself that same question everytime I pick some more up ... ...

It is not silly when I do it. :D

I just find some purchases more silly than others. People must find paying the prices logical which is why they buy them. Some are sold so GW keeps those prices.

Templar Ben
30-04-2009, 18:12
No, I still think it's a fine comparison. I was comparing the fact that downloading music and buying off of EBay see none of that money going to the manufacturer, which was the only point I made.

Make a comparison of buying CDs off of eBay if that is the point you are trying to make. You can talk about buying a CD from a friend or at a rummage sale.


So now, Ben, looking back, do you think you might have been a tad rude? Do you still think it's a "stupid comparison"? I'm curious if you truly think that anywhere in any of my posts I ever said the words "copyright infringement" or if in your haste to get a sarcastic comment out you generated those words yourself.

Other than copyright infringement how can you download a song and have the copyright holder not paid? If you can explain that then I think it is not stupid but until then it is very stupid. Buying something off of eBay is nothing at all like copyright infringement which is what you are alluding to if you are talking about people downloading music for free instead of from a site with a monthly fee that is paid to the industry or on a per download basis.

sliganian
30-04-2009, 18:32
Now I know there are bunkers and stores out there that do their best to bring in new players but they are in no way as effective as the actual GW store, and these clubs also run their own tournaments, but only GW staff can put on the great ones that come with sneak peeks and full hall of heros support.

Point: as of TODAY GW HQ Canada as an entity is dead -- as is Hall of Heroes (except for one last tournament) and is now part of "GW North America".

I see GW getting out of the "Official Tournament" business a great postive development.

LordofLizardmen
30-04-2009, 20:37
get these items onto ebay, they must be purchased from games workshop.... if it's via trade, it's at an approximate 30% discount, which GW would not support if they were not making a profit on.

I bought a lizardmen army in 1997. The money I gave them was in 1997. It is now 2009. It has been 12 years since I gave GW money. GW already spent my money and has no money of mine left.

I see little timmy. He is going to go start a lizardmen army. A few brand new army, for which he is going to pay GW $150 dollars. I say "Hey timmy, buy my army for $150". He goes "Okay! Thanks!'

Money to GW: $0
Money to Me: $150

Little timmy get bored. His brother little johnny is walking to the GW store. He has $300 dollars for a new warhammer army. Little timmy goes "Hey johnny, I got a whole army. You can get it for $300!" Johnny goes "Ok!" and buys it.

Money to GW: $0
Money to timmy: $300

It is now 2012. 5th Edition models are really rare. Johnny sees an oppertunity to sell it. Puts it on ebay. gets $400.

In all of these example, aside from my money, which GW has used up, GW gets no money from timmy, johnny or the ebay buyer.

GW doesn't have new funds. GW can't do anything because of no new funds. In essance the $150, the $300 and the $400 is taken away from GW and is kept by the people selling it who go out and buy something else.

to run a successful business you need money coming in, not money that was historically there. If people keep buying old models from ebay and getting complete armies, there is no need for people to buy new models unless they are OCD or just have money lying around. Producing new models taken money and if no new models are being sold, then GW runs for a loss.

rivers3162
30-04-2009, 21:16
to run a successful business you need money coming in, not money that was historically there. If people keep buying old models from ebay and getting complete armies, there is no need for people to buy new models unless they are OCD or just have money lying around. Producing new models taken money and if no new models are being sold, then GW runs for a loss.

I honestly don't understand this. This applies to pretty much every product on the market but there is absolutely no way to stop people selling things second hand nor do I really think that people are (and I'm not implying that you suggested this) under any obligation to only buy new products directly from the manufacturer. I own a car and when I want a new one, I'll sell my old car. If someone buys it then that means that a car manufacturer has lost a potential sale. And the same applies to just about every other consumer good you can think of.

People buy new products when the old one no longer works or when a new, more advanced product is released which improves on an older one. GW miniatures have a longer lifespan than a car so don't need be replaced because the old one has broken but innovations and improvements make models more attractive than older versions. Some minis might have timeless appeal but generally, the latest incarnations are far superior to their predecessors in terms of sculpting quality.

I have no qualms with buying GW products online at a discount. GW still makes a profit on every trade sale which can then be used to pay staff wages, rent for retail outlets, design costs etc. They might make more profit on direct sales but just as GW isn't run as a charity, neither am I a cash cow waiting to be milked.

I understand that stores might be useful in bringing in new players but I'm sure that new players could be recruited even if those stores didn't exist - other companies have managed to recruit substantial followings despite having absolutely no retail presence. New players aside, I don't really get any benefits from shopping exclusively at GW stores unless I desperately need a pot of paint or a specific miniature. I still like GW products but some of their recent decisions have left a bad taste in the mouth and I don't see why I should give my full support (and full price RRP) to a company which is rapidly losing my goodwill.

LordofLizardmen
30-04-2009, 21:23
I honestly don't understand this. This applies to pretty much every product on the market but there is absolutely no way to stop people selling things second hand

Well thats not entirely correct. Recently PC Game publishers and developers have started putting a limited number of installs on the game there buy allow you to only install it 3 or 5 times before you have to call them to unlock and allow you to play it.

Combined with the reletive ease of accquiring PC games the less legal way, this has killed the second hand market. But as always there is a downside. This killing of the second hand market has also brought a killing of the PC gaming market where developers are stuggling to get people to buy their games.

And I'm nto arguing with you. I detest their way of business and am glad the second hand sales are chipping away at GW.

kyussinchains
30-04-2009, 21:29
I agree with your logic to an extent, but bear in mind, while GW has not MADE any money, they have not lost any either, it cost them a certain amount to produce those miniatures, let's say $100, you bought them for $150 making GW a $50 profit.

you then sell your miniatures to little timmy for $150, GW makes no money on this transaction but they had to produce no extra miniatures at no cost to themselves, they are still $50 up on the deal. Your logic only works if the person was prepared to buy the miniatures at GW prices, and in this case, little Timmy can't afford the $300 to buy them, so GW would not be making the sale either way. If there was no option to buy them cheaper, then Timmy would either have to save money, not bother, or go to a cheaper competitor.

Do you inherently believe selling stuff second hand is wrong? that we should just throw it away so nobody can make use of it? this happens everywhere, someone sells a TV on ebay, are panasonic whinging that it's lost them a sale?

some older models become collector's items, but not the vast majority, I've got boxes of 3rd and 4th edition models which I can't sell because they're either ugly, or no longer have any rules.

The attitude here appears to be that we somehow owe GW a living, if they weren't trying to make a profit and make their shareholders rich then I would be more inclined to support them, but a company which is trying to charge Ģ25 for a box of 10 plastic humans doesn't deserve my loyalty. I will vote with my wallet and try to get the best deal, because companies are thinking the exact same way.

in your example little Timmy gets bored, why should he have to hang on to a load of old miniatures he no longer wants? why can't he sell something to someone else?


just as GW isn't run as a charity, neither am I a cash cow waiting to be milked.

Eloquently put, and 100% true! GW need to EARN my money, they can't sit back and expect me to pay whatever they think is fair.

Lord Dan
01-05-2009, 00:41
Buying something off of eBay is nothing at all like copyright infringement which is what you are alluding to if you are talking about people downloading music for free instead of from a site with a monthly fee that is paid to the industry or on a per download basis.

Copyright Holder Gets $$------------>Copyright Holder Does Not
Music from site w/ monthly fee------------->Downloading for free
Independent GW retailers------------------>EBay

That was the comparison. That's it. Can we be done with this now?

Lord Dan
01-05-2009, 00:47
what people seem to be missing is that to get these items onto ebay, they must be purchased from games workshop.... if it's via trade, it's at an approximate 30% discount, which GW would not support if they were not making a profit on.

It's detracting sales from GW by simply bouncing the original sale around. Consider:

James buys a battalion for $90. GW makes $90.
You buy the battalion from him on EBay for $75. GW makes $0.
GW nets $90.

Vs.

James buys a battalion for $90. GW makes $90.
You buy a battalion for $90. GW makes $90.
GW nets $180.

LordofLizardmen
01-05-2009, 00:56
Do you inherently believe selling stuff second hand is wrong? that we should just throw it away so nobody can make use of it? this happens everywhere, someone sells a TV on ebay, are panasonic whinging that it's lost them a sale?


I don't know what you're arguing because I'm for people buying on ebay as opposed to GW to hurt GW's bottom line. Are you arguing the same thing?

rivers3162
01-05-2009, 01:17
I completely disagree that buying stuff on ebay is somehow akin to downloading music illegally - I really don't think its appropriate to compare corporeal and incorporeal property.

Lets say that one person downloads a song then sends it to everyone else who wants that song. If the first person paid for the track but none of the others did then the company would lose because the nature of the media allows it to be owned by multiple people simultaneously. Thats just the nature of the format the product takes.

If 10 people want a space marine and there are only 5 on ebay then the other 5 are going to have to buy that space marine from GW and GW will also have received money from the person who is selling it on ebay. The space marine can only be owned by one person at a time. Besides which, all corporeal property shold be priced in a way which somehow anticipates the possibility of it being resold.

Reinholt
01-05-2009, 02:03
No, I still think it's a fine comparison. I was comparing the fact that downloading music and buying off of EBay see none of that money going to the manufacturer, which was the only point I made.

The difference here:

Downloading music illegally means the company was never paid in the first place, in any transaction, to acquire a new copy of the good (this would be similar to someone casting models from GW and selling newly made models from the casts on eBay).

Selling GW produced models on eBay is not the same, unless the models were initially stolen from GW, in which case it's a fine comparison.

A better comparison would be buying used models and buying a used car. In both cases there is a secondary market preventing another new purchase from being necessary, but in both cases the initial manufacturer was paid the first time.

To me, the real issue with the secondary market is this:

For every person who enters the hobby this way, or everyone who acquires a new army this way, there is similarly someone who has left or lost one.

The secondary market is something that companies producing durable good will always need to deal with; unless you wish to make an inferior product that degrades (or, in the case of what people are trying to do with music and video games, becomes impossible to preserve and/or re-sell), you are stuck with it.

History has also demonstrated that companies producing inferior or restricted goods tend to eventually be put out of business by those that do not, thanks to consumer preference for the less onerous and more flexible (often, also higher quality) product.

GW needs to focus on continuing to produce high quality models for high quality games (something I feel they have dropped the ball on with many of their games lately); this will create genuine demand.

Lord Dan
01-05-2009, 02:16
You're all correct. Can we move on?

iamfanboy
01-05-2009, 05:37
To me, the real issue with the secondary market is this:

For every person who enters the hobby this way, or everyone who acquires a new army this way, there is similarly someone who has left or lost one.

QFT.

THIS is exactly what Games Workshop, and all of us, SHOULD be afraid of: the fact that each time a secondary market sale takes place, the market and the much-vaunted "GW Hobby" shrinks.

Games Workshop should NOT be encouraging these secondary market sales, and they're HALFWAY doing things right. Each new plastic kit, each better sculpt of a special character or new hero sculpt, encourages people to pick up the new models as well as keep their old models.

However, the sheer prices of buying new kit means that you have to sell your old kit in order to get it? That it's cheaper to buy ten metal Greatswords on eBay than to buy ten plastic ones new? Ridiculous!

it's just... bad. Things are not going to get better.

thinkerman
01-05-2009, 12:36
Just got the new Guard codex from my local indie and to be honest - im not very impressed by the book at all - thinking of ebaying it already

For all the hype made its nothing special - same basic info, not much in the way of conversions etc, basically showing you and trying to push the existing range of GW plastics and Metals rather than making your own units up.

On the plus side i like the new ratlings but again these went through my Indie at 10% off the RRP so cant complain

Fenrir
01-05-2009, 12:45
not much in the way of conversions etc, basically showing you and trying to push the existing range of GW plastics and Metals rather than making your own units up.


That is the way of GW now, after a time when they encouraged personalisation in armies.

LonelyPath
02-05-2009, 20:46
I tend to mostly buy from the GW stores, though for large orders I will go to a IP since they will offer a discount worth having on purchases of that size (mentioned above as being an additional box compared to regular prices).

Panik
03-05-2009, 13:46
I only buy from EBay. I just can't afford GW's prices.

If Ebay hasn't got what I want - I just wait 'till it does.

Templar Ben
03-05-2009, 14:53
I only buy from EBay. I just can't afford GW's prices.

If Ebay hasn't got what I want - I just wait 'till it does.

What is the normal percentage off you find on eBay?


QFT.

THIS is exactly what Games Workshop, and all of us, SHOULD be afraid of: the fact that each time a secondary market sale takes place, the market and the much-vaunted "GW Hobby" shrinks.

Games Workshop should NOT be encouraging these secondary market sales, and they're HALFWAY doing things right. Each new plastic kit, each better sculpt of a special character or new hero sculpt, encourages people to pick up the new models as well as keep their old models.

However, the sheer prices of buying new kit means that you have to sell your old kit in order to get it? That it's cheaper to buy ten metal Greatswords on eBay than to buy ten plastic ones new? Ridiculous!

it's just... bad. Things are not going to get better.

Why should we be afraid?

iamfanboy
06-05-2009, 08:03
Why should we be afraid?

Because the fewer people that own the miniatures, the fewer people that can play - and the higher that GW raises prices, the more they poison their former customers against them.

Isn't one of the "GW hobby" selling points that you can go almost anywhere in Europe or North America and farther yet still find a game? As long as you speak a bit of the local language, you can plunk down some minis and have fun.

Games Workshop is doing their best to throttle that.

People leaving the wargaming hobby is an occupational hazard; sometimes it's because of a girlfriend, sometimes it's because of a job, sometimes it's because they just don't enjoy it any more. Yet I know more people personally who've left wargaming in the last few years because they can't afford it, or can't justify the expense even if they CAN afford it, than for all those other reasons combined.

I'm pretty sure that I'm not alone in this experience.

The boyz
06-05-2009, 08:28
I haven't bought anything from a GW store for a while now. I tend to get most of my stuff from ebay or my LGS.

slingersam
06-05-2009, 09:48
I recently got a full wood elf army for about 75.00. This included 2x pro painted Highborn with great weapons, 6x waywatchers, 6x wardancers, 16x dryads, spell weaver, limited edition standard bearer, rule book, wood elf army book, and an open but unassembled box of glade guard. And a Brand new battalions minus shrink wrap for 55.00 dollars. I got all of this off ebay. If I were to buy this from GW I would have spent around 300.00 dollars. Instead I spent around 140.00. I still need a treeman, and 6 more wardancers, I will probably buy this from my independent retailer + the paints I would need.

Ya I may get flamed for this but honestly I saved myself 160.00 dollars. I didn't have 300 dollars at the time, but I did have 180.00 so I went and got what I could with my money. The battalion + the army book would have alone cost me about 120 dollars, what does that leave me with honestly? Not getting much with 60 dollars, at least not half of what I stated above.

Templar Ben
06-05-2009, 11:31
Because the fewer people that own the miniatures, the fewer people that can play - and the higher that GW raises prices, the more they poison their former customers against them.

Isn't one of the "GW hobby" selling points that you can go almost anywhere in Europe or North America and farther yet still find a game? As long as you speak a bit of the local language, you can plunk down some minis and have fun.

Games Workshop is doing their best to throttle that.

People leaving the wargaming hobby is an occupational hazard; sometimes it's because of a girlfriend, sometimes it's because of a job, sometimes it's because they just don't enjoy it any more. Yet I know more people personally who've left wargaming in the last few years because they can't afford it, or can't justify the expense even if they CAN afford it, than for all those other reasons combined.

I'm pretty sure that I'm not alone in this experience.

Some quit but many go on to other games. If you don't game in a GW store it is not that much of an issue. I moved to an area where people quit playing GW games due to price. It just meant I had to buy PP models to play them.

Sure some said they would pick up IG but then there was so much inertia to stick with PP. It is the opposite of what many say happens in their area.


I recently got a full wood elf army for about 75.00. This included 2x pro painted Highborn with great weapons, 6x waywatchers, 6x wardancers, 16x dryads, spell weaver, limited edition standard bearer, rule book, wood elf army book, and an open but unassembled box of glade guard. And a Brand new battalions minus shrink wrap for 55.00 dollars. I got all of this off ebay. If I were to buy this from GW I would have spent around 300.00 dollars. Instead I spent around 140.00. I still need a treeman, and 6 more wardancers, I will probably buy this from my independent retailer + the paints I would need.

Ya I may get flamed for this but honestly I saved myself 160.00 dollars. I didn't have 300 dollars at the time, but I did have 180.00 so I went and got what I could with my money. The battalion + the army book would have alone cost me about 120 dollars, what does that leave me with honestly? Not getting much with 60 dollars, at least not half of what I stated above.

There is nothing wrong with being smart about your purchase.

LordofLizardmen
06-05-2009, 13:27
People leaving the wargaming hobby is an occupational hazard; sometimes it's because of a girlfriend, sometimes it's because of a job, sometimes it's because they just don't enjoy it any more.

So you're saying people getting on in life and no longer supporting the GW hive mind are wrong?

Lord of Worms
06-05-2009, 14:48
What is the normal percentage off you find on eBay?

If I bid smart, and am patient at least 50% off retail, for brand new on sprue stuff. Recently I got 2 chaos rhinos, a box of dark elf spearmen and a box of the new Chaos Knights for $ 65 CAD

yabbadabba
06-05-2009, 14:56
People leaving the wargaming hobby is an occupational hazard; sometimes it's because of a girlfriend, sometimes it's because of a job, sometimes it's because they just don't enjoy it any more.


So you're saying people getting on in life and no longer supporting the GW hive mind are wrong?

How on earth did you conclude your comment from the quote above LotL :wtf:? iamafanboy said that people were leaving the wargaming hobby - not GW. And it is the same for any business which is based on people's free time. And as the demands on people's free time changes, so does their need on how to fill that free time.
For example, in the UK, I know of a frightening amount of people who have stopped buying their season tickets for their football team, and have spent the money on a cable or satellite subscription. They just can't afford the ticket, travel, kit and food for the season anymore as they have families, home and business commitments.
Mate, you need to take a huge breath and think about what you are writing because a lot of it is verging on the unintelligibly fanatical :rolleyes:

dariakus
06-05-2009, 15:43
Why are we all assuming that every sale on eBay is from someone who is getting out of the hobby entirely? That's one heck of an assumption. A lot of people are just clearing out a bunch of extra stuff they accumulated over the years, or selling off an army or two in order to fund a new one.

slingersam
06-05-2009, 16:07
Why are we all assuming that every sale on eBay is from someone who is getting out of the hobby entirely? That's one heck of an assumption. A lot of people are just clearing out a bunch of extra stuff they accumulated over the years, or selling off an army or two in order to fund a new one.

He's right. On ebay their are ebay stores. These stores could be websites buying from GW retailers, or they get thier supplie from GW directly. I know the store manager here is using ebay to get rid of all the stuff not being sold.(things like armies bits of armies not being played in the area.or Just stuff he needs to sell before a new book is out so he can get a good price for it.) I sold an old school necron HQ choice (slipped my mind) for 11 dollars + 2.50 shipping:D. Ebay could just be another way of selling GW items.

Reinholt
06-05-2009, 16:18
Why are we all assuming that every sale on eBay is from someone who is getting out of the hobby entirely? That's one heck of an assumption. A lot of people are just clearing out a bunch of extra stuff they accumulated over the years, or selling off an army or two in order to fund a new one.

I never said all, but I think I could safely assert that at least some of the people on eBay are those getting out of the hobby. I doubt anyone would contest that.

Likewise, any proliferation of sales from independent parties (not retailers) means someone has to be selling their stuff. So perhaps they are trimming down, or perhaps they are getting out, but it's clear whatever they are doing, they are doing less of the hobby.

Retailers, really, are just using ebay as another online store; that is a different phenomenon.

Templar Ben
06-05-2009, 16:21
Why are we all assuming that every sale on eBay is from someone who is getting out of the hobby entirely? That's one heck of an assumption. A lot of people are just clearing out a bunch of extra stuff they accumulated over the years, or selling off an army or two in order to fund a new one.

Is it a lot that are selling a couple of armies just to buy more from GW? I know that there are some but how many.


He's right. On ebay their are ebay stores. These stores could be websites buying from GW retailers, or they get thier supplie from GW directly. I know the store manager here is using ebay to get rid of all the stuff not being sold.(things like armies bits of armies not being played in the area.or Just stuff he needs to sell before a new book is out so he can get a good price for it.) I sold an old school necron HQ choice (slipped my mind) for 11 dollars + 2.50 shipping:D. Ebay could just be another way of selling GW items.

eBay stores are a bit different though. eBay stores are just webstores that use eBay as their portal.

I do agree with you both that not every army for sell on eBay is someone leaving the hobby. I am thinking it is a majority though since stores tend to be selling specific items and not assembled armies.

I may be wrong though.

slingersam
07-05-2009, 21:06
Is it a lot that are selling a couple of armies just to buy more from GW? I know that there are some but how many.



eBay stores are a bit different though. eBay stores are just webstores that use eBay as their portal.

I do agree with you both that not every army for sell on eBay is someone leaving the hobby. I am thinking it is a majority though since stores tend to be selling specific items and not assembled armies.

I may be wrong though.

Thiers this guy, he assembles hero units and sells those pre primed. I sold my Necrons on ebay to get an Ork army as I wasnt really feeling necrons at the time. Remember people may also be getting into the the warhammer world through ebay, not just leaving.

Templar Ben
07-05-2009, 21:40
Thiers this guy, he assembles hero units and sells those pre primed. I sold my Necrons on ebay to get an Ork army as I wasnt really feeling necrons at the time. Remember people may also be getting into the the warhammer world through ebay, not just leaving.

So you know one guy and yourself. I know of 15 that quit via eBay. As I said, I know some do it that way (there are those that order direct from FW and put those on eBay as kits or painted) but is it a significant portion.

I also know that some go to eBay first to look for an army but again how many of those are new gamers and how many are trying to pick up a second army. Either way it is not as good for GW as that is less money going to GW.

Faeslayer
08-05-2009, 14:06
You can often check to see what someone's bought recently on eBay- it can give you some idea of why they're selling it. "Army recycling" on eBay is the standard thing to do when switching armies, I thought.

boogle
08-05-2009, 15:41
I'm downsizing my collection to 1 army, i'll be trying via here 1st, then ebay to sell the rest

Osbad
11-05-2009, 09:28
Well, I've decided I'm quitting 40k. My 750 points of Smurfs will be on the tubes as soon as I can get around to photographing them (could be a while...). The potential cost of filling out the army to 1500 points or so will be better spent on other things. Like Uncharted Seas, WWII and such.

40k 5th ed is a reasonable game. Just not worth an arm and a leg!

That's going to be one eBay seller "quitting" not just "churning"...

If I can be bothered to take the photographs.... It has to be said I have a large backlog of crap waiting to be put on eBay, so I'm not likely to get around to it any time soon!