PDA

View Full Version : Tau; what colour would their metal be?



Captain prophet
28-04-2009, 16:30
ok well i've made a downed gun drone on a scenic base, it has some bullet holes on it and i was wondering what colour would it be or would it even be metal or some odd futuristic ceramic type thing anyway any help would be great:D


thanks, J.D

Marshal Sinclair
28-04-2009, 16:36
Probably some sort of resin/plastic, so as to masks the drones signature better. Light Grey being a good choice! Plus resin/plastic are much lighter than most metals, so require less power from the weak antigrav engines.

Captain prophet
28-04-2009, 17:03
Probably some sort of resin/plastic, so as to masks the drones signature better. Light Grey being a good choice! Plus resin/plastic are much lighter than most metals, so require less power from the weak antigrav engines.
thanks i thought it would be something along the those lines as for some reason i imagine tau are too high tech for metal lol



thanks again, J.D
:D

Marshal Sinclair
28-04-2009, 17:06
thanks i thought it would be something along the those lines as for some reason i imagine tau are too high tech for metal lol



thanks again, J.D
:D

Tau are a lot less technologically advanced than the Imperium, but that's a whole different thread.

Col. Tartleton
28-04-2009, 17:19
May as well expand on it. ;)

The Tau are thousands of years behind the Imperium. Where the Imperium actually did the hard work over millenia and reach a peak almost comparable to the eldar they then had a dark age that has lasted for well over ten thousand years. In that time the technology has degraded to a level where the majority of the really cool stuff doesn't work anymore and most of the stuff that has kept on going is either the really moderate tech or really really important and has been guarded. The Imperium is however still far ahead of the Tau despite rapid acceleration on the part of the Xenos and the degeneration of the Imperials.

Imperium= Best Sci Fi tech ever!! as used by medieval people

Tau= Decent Sci Fi tech used by people who understand how it works

The Imperial Tech will be superior its just that the handlers can just barely figure out the killy end from the handle end. So the Tau army looks like a super elite modern military armed with twenty fifth century tech which is really impressive.

The Imperial Guard look like a bunch of serfs slinging lightweight and portable recoil less .44 caliber laser rifles that can recharge a several hundred round clip in a few hours of sunlight. BTW that's the smallest and most pathetic fire arm they can produce in mass to equip countless trillions of ground pounders on a thousand worlds at a time.

MajorWesJanson
28-04-2009, 17:25
I've been using chainmail as the metallic for my Tau, as it is a relatively clean looking color, not the grimmer boltgun metal that I use for the Imperium.

Balance-keeper
28-04-2009, 19:57
May as well expand on it. ;)

The Tau are thousands of years behind the Imperium. Where the Imperium actually did the hard work over millenia and reach a peak almost comparable to the eldar they then had a dark age that has lasted for well over ten thousand years. In that time the technology has degraded to a level where the majority of the really cool stuff doesn't work anymore and most of the stuff that has kept on going is either the really moderate tech or really really important and has been guarded. The Imperium is however still far ahead of the Tau despite rapid acceleration on the part of the Xenos and the degeneration of the Imperials.

Well you might want to do a little digging into the tau to reveal some of their facts...The Tau Have a better grasp of tech than the imperium and their hand weapons are more advanced...aswell as this the tau can figure out the tech of the other races with ease (excluding the necrons or tyranids). But the rest of their tech does the job its ment to do...so they dont really have reason to make ships that can jump across the galaxy in one jump...since thats not their tactical position...

So their not 'a lot less technological that the imperium' ... ... ... the imperium's just fanatical...the tau will be more advanced in around 50 years (In game)...

For the topic at hand, i Reckon the colour is a red gore with a hint of boltgun metal around 3/1 ratio

The_Outsider
28-04-2009, 20:07
I will say this only once for those who assume tau must be the bestest because they read the tau codex.

Tau technology is vastly inferiror to what the IoM builds and services on a daily basis, only the eldar and necrons (in that order) have superior technology to the imperium. Let me know once the tau can cross vast distances of space (in spacial terms) in a single leap, genetically engineer warriors with many times the strength of an unaugmented tau, having cannons that hsoot skyscraper sized projectiles, have personal teleportation devices, can build titans, can build weapons that fit inside a fingernail, can rebuild a human from nothing as long as the brain is intact (ref: an Iron Hands Iron Father) or or or or............

Balance-keeper
28-04-2009, 20:16
I will say this only once for those who assume tau must be the bestest because they read the tau codex.

Tau technology is vastly inferiror to what the IoM builds and services on a daily basis, only the eldar and necrons (in that order) have superior technology to the imperium. Let me know once the tau can cross vast distances of space (in spacial terms) in a single leap, genetically engineer warriors with many times the strength of an unaugmented tau, having cannons that hsoot skyscraper sized projectiles, have personal teleportation devices, can build titans, can build weapons that fit inside a fingernail, can rebuild a human from nothing as long as the brain is intact (ref: an Iron Hands Iron Father) or or or or............

A) if ya read my post, i never sed they were more technologicly advanced, i just implied that they are... but what it ment was they're not 'vastly inferiror'...

B) i did say that they dont want to jump across the galaxy in one jump...thats why they their inter-galatic ships are only designed to do hop's

C) i Didn't just read the codex

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
28-04-2009, 20:42
Well you might want to do a little digging into the tau to reveal some of their facts...The Tau Have a better grasp of tech than the imperium and their weapons are more advanced...aswell as this the tau can figure out the tech of the other races with ease (excluding the necrons or tyranids). But the rest of their tech does the job its ment to do...so they dont really have reason to make ships that can jump across the galaxy in one jump...since thats not their tactical position...

So their not 'a lot less technological that the imperium' ... ... ... the imperium's just fanatical...the tau will be more advanced in around 50 years (In game)...



Er, I'm afraid not. Let's go through this bit by bit, hmmm?

Advanced weapons- Railguns, I'll grant you. That's a serious peice of firepower for such a package. However, look at, say, plasma. Sure, it's safer, but it's a good bit weaker, too.

Figure out the technology of other races with ease- excuse me? Nonsensical statement, although if they could so easily decipher Eldar gear, why don't they pack the best of both worlds?

Space Travel-
so they dont really have reason to make ships that can jump across the galaxy in one jump...since thats not their tactical position
So you're saying they can? Check again. Score- Imperium: full warp travel capability. Can feasibly 'rule' the huge swath of galaxy they lay claim to*. Tau: incapable of full warp travel. Forced to skip in and out of warp, in order to avoid possible messy death and stay on course. Science is working to rectify this, and may well, in a century or two**.

Now, all the comparing so far has been very simplistic. Let's look at the big picture.
Sure, there's some Tau combat tech that outclasses that of the Imperium, on the battlefield, in a one-on-one situation. However, that's not the point. The Tau fall so much shorter on so many levels (space travel, capability of warships, teleportation), and even that's not considering said big picture. Welcome to the Imperium. It effectively rules upwards of a million separate inhabited star systems. The Tau rule three dozen. The Imperium requires a military of unintelligible proportions, one that might as well be (and often is) dozens of separate organizations.
Take the humble lasgun. Sure, it's less powerful than a Pulse Rifle. It has a clip of several hundred rounds, which can be recharged if left out in the sun, or near a heat source. It's (debatably) recoilless/of low recoil, lightweight, simple. (Thanks, Col., sir.) It's right durable. And here's the miracle of it- you can take a lasgun manufactured on Mars itself, and hand it, without ammunition, to a Cadian at the Gate who's lost his. He's intimately familiar with it, can load it with his spare clips, can repair it with his spare parts and toolkit. If he's later pinned down in the rubble with a fellow Guardsman from Lamb's World, say, born halfway across the galaxy, they can exchange parts and clips, and keep going. He can drag it through the mud, through oceans, vacuum, extreme heat and cold, dust and sand, and it will still fire. And fire it does- lasguns have been likened to a solid .50cal. And there's probably a lasgun for every one of the trillions upon trillions upon trillions of people in the Imperium, to say nothing of the Guard.

Sorry. I got a bit carried away there. Anyway, the above can be repeated with damn near anything the Imperium uses, save stuff that's truly rare and mysterious (power armor, digi-weapons, Titans...)

The Imperium Wins Massively.

*Yeah, I know. It's hard, being a galactic empire.
**In 40k scale, this is really short. Really, really short. Hell, Kreig was able to spend longer than that blowing itself up with nukes, to say nothing of the war that followed. Centuries= small peanuts.

Back to the op, I prefer a darker gray. I see the Tau using lots of ceramics and fabrics, as well as the plastic.

Marshal Sinclair
28-04-2009, 20:46
There are two pieces of technology that are so advanced that they make Tau look like the intergalactic children they are. The humble Lasgun (far and away more advanced than say a Bolter or Pulse Rifle), and personal teleporters. It goes without saying that the ability to teleport an object breaks every law of physics we know (OK, no it doesn't, but it sure sounds good on paper).

Then you have little things like being able to levitate city sized ships using anti-grav motors (Titan drop ships in Titanicus), any sort of Void weaponry, the shape shifting drug Callidus assassins use.

The Tau will likely never catch up to the Imperiums technology. The Imperiums technology is partially powered by psychic ability (Voids, teleporters, intergalactic comms, navigators etc), which the Tau themselves do not possess.

But there is no point arguing this, as the Tau fans never want to see reason.

Mannimarco
28-04-2009, 20:48
theres a humbrol acrylic paint out there (i forget the number) its dull grey with a light blue metallic sheen

id use that

Balance-keeper
28-04-2009, 21:00
But there is no point arguing this, as the Tau fans never want to see reason.

And The Imperium Fans Never understand that the imperium isn't almighty and doesn't have the best everything...

But as for the 'humble lasgun'....your kidding right... thats not technologicly advanced.... (for 40k)....we have nearly got the tech to produce that...give us 15 years and it will replace projectile weaponary...that is if the recession doesn't end the economy once an for all

tho the personal teleport's i cant argue with...nor the void stuff...

AlexCage
28-04-2009, 21:05
The Tau will likely never catch up to the Imperiums technology. The Imperiums technology is partially powered by psychic ability (Voids, teleporters, intergalactic comms, navigators etc), which the Tau themselves do not possess.

But there is no point arguing this, as the Tau fans never want to see reason.

Never? In 2000 years they've gone from sticks and stones to railguns, anti-grav technology in abundance (to the point it's trivial), (arguably) crude power armor, and space travel.

The Imperium may be one of the top dogs of the technology department, but they're horribly stagnant, and the idea of simple research and development is a cardinal sin that carries a death sentence in most sectors. They have nowhere to go but down as they start 'forgetting' how to make stuff.

To say a race that's been growing in technology and science at an exponential rate, far faster than mankind ever did even at its height, won't someday reach a certain point that's been previously achieved is a bit short sighted.

Barring some outside influence (The Imperium growing bored with the Tau and utterly crushing their piddling 'Empire', or the 'Nids finally eating them all) there's no reason to assume that in a couple centuries the Tau won't be the premiere technological power in the universe.

Luckily, the 40k storyline is as stagnant as the Imperium's technology, so we'll never see that happen.


Disclaimer: This all coming from a dyed-in-the-wool Imperium supporter and Xenos hater.

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
28-04-2009, 21:06
But as for the 'humble lasgun'....your kidding right... thats not technologicly advanced.... (for 40k)....we have nearly got the tech to produce that...give us 15 years and it will replace projectile weaponary...


No, it's not complicated, if that's what you mean. But it's a downright miracle, nonetheless. A miracle of scale.


And here's the miracle of it- you can take a lasgun manufactured on Mars itself, and hand it, without ammunition, to a Cadian at the Gate who's lost his. He's intimately familiar with it, can load it with his spare clips, can repair it with his spare parts and toolkit. If he's later pinned down in the rubble with a fellow Guardsman from Lamb's World, say, born halfway across the galaxy, they can exchange parts and clips, and keep going. He can drag it through the mud, through oceans, vacuum, extreme heat and cold, dust and sand, and it will still fire. And fire it does- lasguns have been likened to a solid .50cal. And there's probably a lasgun for every one of the trillions upon trillions upon trillions of people in the Imperium, to say nothing of the Guard.


And you call me back in 2024. ;)


And The Imperium Fans Never understand that the imperium isn't almighty and doesn't have the best everything...

Did any of us say that? I thought we've been having a pretty balanced disscussion, for the most part.

Case in point-
Never? In 2000 years they've gone from sticks and stones to railguns, anti-grav technology in abundance (to the point it's trivial), (arguably) crude power armor, and space travel.

...

Disclaimer: This all coming from a dyed-in-the-wool Imperium supporter and Xenos hater.
I'm totally with this, by the way.

The_Outsider
28-04-2009, 21:07
And The Imperium Fans Never understand that the imperium isn't almighty and doesn't have the best everything...

No they don't, but the IoM curbstomps the tau in just about every way.


But as for the 'humble lasgun'....your kidding right... thats not technologicly advanced.... (for 40k)....we have nearly got the tech to produce that...give us 15 years and it will replace projectile weaponary

Lolno.

Sure have the basic prototypes behind the technology in the works now, but the lasgun is the AK47 of the 40k universe and has none of the short comings the AK suffers from.

Getting a power source that is reliable, durable and small enough to power a lasgun that itself is light, durable and reliable is a monumental task - current alloys and materials aren't man enough for the job.

Let alone economically mass producing the bloomin' things.

Marshal Sinclair
28-04-2009, 21:14
I highly doubt any battery we produced on Earth (likely ever) will appreciate being put in a fire. Explosively not appreciate it.

Kraxis
28-04-2009, 21:17
This technology contest is a bit misplaced, but i'll jump in and post my view on this matter.

Tau are outclassed. They have Railguns, sophisticrated battlesuits, high-tech civilian gear, no external dangerous wires and stuff, safer guns, much good. However, they havent been around for long. They started the climb on the technology ladder very few milennium ago(is it 7000, 5000 or 2000? Highly doubt the last, but i've read it somewhere.) They also lack psykers, a grave weakness. Although they are not easily corrupted by the Warp, they have no way of navigating in the Immaterium, nor any natural understanding of Chaos. The Tau brain is one strictly based on order.

Then we have the Imperium. They were uncontested(unlike the Tau) for very many Milennia while they invented tons of stuff, much of it based on the fabulous psyker abilities(this was wery late in the Dark Age Of Technology, i believe.) It was only after they had gotten all their equipment that they left Terra and it's sytem and met aliens. They had very much time on their own, helping out greatly.


In short, there is no way Tay tech is better than human, but it is closing rapidly. Not in huge leaps, but they do. So, if the Tau survive and prosper long enough, they will fulfill Eldrad's dreams and overcome the Eldar's greatest achievments. But most likely, They'll end up in a tech level similar to the Imperium's at it's heigth, before getting a downfall and finds itself in a somewhat similar position as the Imperium is in now.


Im tech = win.
Tau tech = still potential to improve.


Don't take this too seriously though, i'm not overly sure. I am so desoriented i haven't even found the "make a sig" button:(

Oh, and to the guy saying eldar is more advanced than necrons: lol. Necrons have guns that split you atom by atom, and they make bodies capapable of housing star-eating gods. And they've been around for more than 60 million years.

Balance-keeper
28-04-2009, 21:17
Er, I'm afraid not. Let's go through this bit by bit, hmmm?

Advanced weapons- Railguns, I'll grant you. That's a serious peice of firepower for such a package. However, look at, say, plasma. Sure, it's safer, but it's a good bit weaker, too.

Figure out the technology of other races with ease- excuse me? Nonsensical statement, although if they could so easily decipher Eldar gear, why don't they pack the best of both worlds?

Space Travel-
So you're saying they can? Check again. Score- Imperium: full warp travel capability. Can feasibly 'rule' the huge swath of galaxy they lay claim to*. Tau: incapable of full warp travel. Forced to skip in and out of warp, in order to avoid possible messy death and stay on course. Science is working to rectify this, and may well, in a century or too**.


NO i never sed they can the point of what i sed is that they never had a reason to, so their technology wasn't designed to do it...if it wasn't designed to do it then it cant do it...like i sed its not the way their tatical way....they move out in small steps...taking over an area...fortifing it and moving on...so they dont NEED to make massive jumps...

As for the Lasgun...its not more advanced...just more durable....

Oh and my mistake i forgot to include the eldar....

but their plasma is only a little weaker but 99.999999% safe, their burst cannons are more advanced than....say auto-cannon's or multi-lasers.... And their ability to Make inter-active A.I drones that for a network...so the more their are the smarter they are..etc... is more impressive than the imperium just linking people (Fanatics) up to machine's.....

And it won't take them that long to make their tech better since their much faster with research and devolpement as proven by the race's age to their tech level....

And on top of all that At least They Are Clean!!!....not covered in muck and rust.

massey
28-04-2009, 21:21
I don't know anybody who thinks a lasgun is equal to a .50 cal. A lasgun is much closer to an M-16 or AK-47.

The Imperium operates on a day-to-day tech level much lower than the Tau. The average Tau citizen is carrying around much more advanced tech than the average Imperial citizen. The Tau guy has got his cell phone, his little holographic video display, and all the good stuff we expect from a futuristic sci-fi race. The Imperial guy, on the other hand, is wearing some sort of artificial burlap and has a little prayer book. The Tau have nice shiny futuristic stuff that makes beeps and boops, glows like neon in the dark, and basically looks like it was designed by Apple. The Imperium is using tech that would be familiar to those trapped in the middle ages. They sometimes hook up oxen to wooden carts to plow their fields.

If you're asking me which place I'd prefer to live, it's easy.

But... then the Imperium also has the good stuff. They've got a vortex cannon from 15,000 years ago, that still works. They've got teleportation tech that's been carefully maintained. They've got a grenade smaller than a baseball that can tear a hole into another dimension. And they can make more. The Imperium simply doesn't bother giving this stuff to the masses. A lasgun can kill 99% of the things you'll encounter. So what if it takes a few dozen shots to kill a Marine? You've got trillions of guardsmen. Nobody is going to notice a few more deaths.

The Tau are nowhere close to having the upper-level tech that the Imperium has.

The_Outsider
28-04-2009, 21:27
NO i never sed they can the point of what i sed is that they never had a reason to, so their technology wasn't designed to do it...if it wasn't designed to do it then it cant do it...like i sed its not the way their tatical way....they move out in small steps...taking over an area...fortifing it and moving on...so they dont NEED to make massive jumps...

If they cannot do it because they don't have the technology they've been outclassed haven't they?


As for the Lasgun...its not more advanced...just more durable....

Being complicated doesn't mean something is advanced. In fact the real test of technology is to have something very hard to do some simply (like the lasgun, it is a simple battlefield serviceable laser gun).



but their plasma is only a little weaker

Lolno. S6 and 7 in game terms isn't much, but in fluff terms it is massive, one is liek being hit with the force a minture sun, the other is just really really really hot (but still well above anything we can come up with now)


their burst cannons are more advanced than....say auto-cannon's or multi-lasers

You don't know that, the tau codex does not give any real details on the durability or expected service life of a burst cannon. As I said before, sometimes being simple is being advanced.



And their ability to Make inter-active A.I drones that for a network...so the more their are the smarter they are..etc... is more impressive than the imperium just linking people (Fanatics) up to machine's.....

IoM can mindlink servitors to people very easily and again, we do not know the limits of Tau A.I - servitors can perform massively complex operations if they are programmed to and can follow orders with a degree of intelligence.

Do not mistake the processing power of a human mind with being poorer than an A.I (though this is a grey area i nservitor fluff too).


And it won't take them that long to make their tech better since their much faster with research and devolpement as proven by the race's age to their tech level....

This is all relative - the tau empire is absolutely tiny and the empire is localised, making the sharing of technology between a small population easy.


And on top of all that At least They Are Clean!!!....not covered in muck and rust.

Errr what.

Also: the salamanders have a rhino that is 10k years old - I highly doubt any tau piece of tech could endure that long in service.

Tastyfish
28-04-2009, 21:28
On the otherhand Battlesuits apparently can be mass produced, if only the Tau psyche was up to withstaning the disassociative wierdness you get from the mind/machine interface. Whilst the Imperium is pretty good at building highly flexible power supplies (in addition to a lasgun being able to recharge whilst in a fire, the leman russ has solar power as an option, or can run on wood) the Tau have worked out how to mass produce plasma weaponry and their grasp of field and nanotech is vastly superior (second only to necrons if we go by necromunda sources, we know battlesuits are capable of being mass produced, and necromundan spyrer suits literally need just time and atoms to repair and rebuild themselves).

Far as mass production goes, the difference between thousands and billions is just scale and supplies rather than tech. The Imperium can dedicate continents to building lasguns with raw materials being brought in from several planets. The Tau can do a similar thing but can only dedicate a few large factories drawing from on-world mines and some imported goods.

On the otherhand, the Imperium seems to be at a resource disadvantage compared to the Tau as far as anti-grav tech goes. Older fluff seems to point to Anti-Grav tech requiring a few rare materials that are now stockpiled on earth. The Tau either have a planet (or Homeworld) with these in abundance or know how to work around the resource limitations and build gravity tech that isn't reliant on this ore.

Marshal Sinclair
28-04-2009, 21:30
Imperial Plasma is safe when running at the power levels the Tau use, it is just that life is cheaper than plasma weapons, so pump up the power levels! As far as I know the Tau don't have Plasma weaponry on the same scale that the Imperium does, either. The Imperium can and does make lots of use of both very small and very large scale Plasma - Pistols and Battle Ship scale. Tau do neither.

The Imperium (or rather the Mechanicus) makes IA, so it's a null argument.

I never understood why people think Railguns are super advanced pieces of kit. We can build rail guns today that will sink a battle ship with a can of beans. We just don't have the technology to stop the barrels from melting after every shot.

On the subject of the Imperiums advancement... The Imperium first encountered hostile aliens on a large scale back during the M22, which is when the Xeno Wars kicked off. These were most likely against the Eldar, who were then the masters and guardians of the galaxy. Humanity spread amongst the stars many thousands of years before the Imperium of Man was founded, as evidenced by the fact that the Great Crusade liberated or assimilated 2 million human worlds (2 million stated in Collected Visions).


I don't know anybody who thinks a...etc...

And they have widely available mechanical augmentations, as well as drugs and other technology that extend the human life by many thousands of years (actual human life, not Dreadnoughts).


On the otherhand Battlesuits apparently can be mass produced,

As can Power Armour, which is far better than Tau Battlesuits. The Imperium has millions of sets of Power Armour (a million suits on Astartes, many more millions of suits on Sororitas, play replacements for casualties and the like. The Imperium probably has hundreds of millions of suits of Power Armour in use or storage, whereas the Tau have thousands of Battlesuits.



On the otherhand, the Imperium seems to be at a resource disadvantage compared to the Tau as far as anti-grav tech goes. Older fluff seems to point to Anti-Grav tech requiring a few rare materials that are now stockpiled on earth. The Tau either have a planet (or Homeworld) with these in abundance or know how to work around the resource limitations and build gravity tech that isn't reliant on this ore.

The Mechanicus can levitate city sized drop ships (Titanicus). The most I've seen from the Tau is the Manta, and we don't know if it even uses Anti-grav technology.

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
28-04-2009, 21:31
NO i never sed they can the point of what i sed is that they never had a reason to, so their technology wasn't designed to do it...if it wasn't designed to do it then it cant do it...like i sed its not the way their tactical way....they move out in small steps...taking over an area...fortifying it and moving on...so they dont NEED to make massive jumps...


The Tau would like nothing better than to have the warp-travel capabilities of the major players. Explicitly stated. They don't have it.

And no, they don't need to cross the galaxy, but I have no doubt that they'd like to be able to hop from sept to sept in one jump, as opposed to a dozen over a space of days to weeks, or even months (not that the warp is any more reliable, really). Remember, space is HUGE. It's surprising how many people forget that.



As for the Lasgun...its not more advanced...just more durable....


And so simple that...everything I've said. Can you do that with a pulse rifle? Outsider makes important points, although he made them whilst I was typing.


And their ability to Make inter-active A.I drones that for a network...so the more their are the smarter they are..etc... is more impressive than the imperium just linking people (Fanatics) up to machine's.....

True. However, the Imperium doesn't use thinking AI for a reason, not because they can't. Ever heard of the Iron Men?



And it won't take them that long to make their tech better since their much faster with research and development as proven by the race's age to their tech level....


Also true. However, it'll be a good five to ten thousand years, methinks.


I don't know anybody who thinks a lasgun is equal to a .50 cal. A lasgun is much closer to an M-16 or AK-47.

Now you do. Lasgun wounds have been, more than once, likened to that caused by a single .50cal round.
That's the only likeness I can see.



I never understood why people think Railguns are super advanced pieces of kit. We can build rail guns today that will sink a battle ship with a can of beans. We just don't have the technology to stop the barrels from melting after every shot.

However, the Tau must be doing something different, as theirs are serious business, and from a concept that other races seem to have long given up on.

Balance-keeper
28-04-2009, 21:39
When i sed clean....i was talking about their cities....
But saying all this is well and good but it would only take one person at games workshop to right in some offical document who is more advanced....i just cant see why they havent... but i suppose all this doesn't matter in the end the tyranids are goin to kill everything anyways....

Oh, and on the plasma issue....(By the Fluff) both will do the same damage...its just on burns for longer...and since that couldn't be got across in the game easy they just knocked its str down by 1

Marshal Sinclair
28-04-2009, 21:42
In several places in the background we see people more or less vanishing (the Psycher who's feet were all that left in one of the Eisenhorn books, for example) when hit by Imperial Plasma, but just falling over dead when hit by Tau.

Balance-keeper
28-04-2009, 21:47
Also true. However, it'll be a good five to ten thousand years, methinks.

Ya think.....so your saying that the tau are technologicly primitive...cos 5 to 10 thousand years would say they'll advance at the same rate as humans did...but since their race is 5000 years old and they started to create tech 2000 years ago....and their up to this level.....i think your maths is a little off...base on their rate of growth and their increase in size...which means and increase in man power....it will only probs take them 250 years to match the imperium...

if theirs no un-forseen set backs...(tyranids...necron...dark eldar stealing all their scientist...etc.....)

Tastyfish
28-04-2009, 21:48
Pulse weapons are plasma based. AdMech AI is actually not true AI in the way the Tau's is, but instead based on uploading conciousness (my personal theory is that this is based off necron tech*) as Titan AI is uploaded bear and lions, and Inquisitor has a few examples of important Magi uploading themselves to backup personality cores. They don't build them from scratch, 'Machine Spirit' is not as superstitious term as you might think they literally are ghosts digitally encoded onto the positronic cores.

* Necrons being the masters of transferring minds to machines, and doing it on a large scale. Martian colonists find part of the C'tan Dragon's mechanisms in the Labyrinth Noctis and use that to perfect Virtual Immortality, triggering true post-humanism and the Singularity. Humanity as we know it is saved when the Eldar recognise what has happened (or misremember what is happening) and give material aid to the true humans fighting against the Iron Men - if they need to, since pure mechanism lacks a real soul and can't use the warp efficiently so Post Humans versus Navigators and Psykers might even be a stragically matched fight. I also like the idea that a few daemons got involved once it was revealed that Iron Men have no Souls - would lay the groundwork for a resurgance in somewhat unfocused religion that appears to dominate the areas surounding Terra. Many battles are fought, with almost every battle won by the post-human Iron Men but with a slow strategic advantage being won by the psychic humans as they can strike and communicate quicker. Fearful of what happened, devestated by the war and under attack by former allies - the laws against making machines in the likeness of humans is banned and written into every scripture that not-quite-yet-AdMech has.

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
28-04-2009, 22:12
Ya think.....so your saying that the tau are technologicly primitive...cos 5 to 10 thousand years would say they'll advance at the same rate as humans did...but since their race is 5000 years old and they started to create tech 2000 years ago....and their up to this level.....i think your maths is a little off...base on their rate of growth and their increase in size...which means and increase in man power....it will only probs take them 250 years to match the imperium...


No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that, at their present (incredible) rate of advancement, it'll take them said 5-10 thousand years to reach the current level of technology possessed by the Imperium (note- not the level of the highest-tech stuff, but the average). Who knows how long it'll take them to reach DAoT levels, of which current human tech is the merest shadow?

250 years? Snap- gone by like that. The civil war on Kreig, if I'm not mistaken, lasted twice that before Imperial forces arrived to aid the loyalists. In the Grim Darkness of the Far Future, it takes forever for important things to happen. 7500 years is nothing compared to the amount of time it took for mankind to reach it's height.

Kraxis
28-04-2009, 22:14
As can Power Armour, which is far better than Tau Battlesuits. The Imperium has millions of sets of Power Armour (a million suits on Astartes, many more millions of suits on Sororitas, play replacements for casualties and the like. The Imperium probably has hundreds of millions of suits of Power Armour in use or storage, whereas the Tau have thousands of Battlesuits.

Now, two questions:

1. Stop squabbling about numbers. The Tau Empire is small, the Imperium is huge. The small cannot match those numbers. Also numbers are not the same as tech level.

2. How the Warp can you say Power Armor is superior to Battlesuits? That's nonsense! The Power Armor makes the wearer very tough, supports it's own weigth and gives a sturdy exoskeletion for heavier weapons, but so what? A battlesuit has an inbuilt jump pack, is protective, enhances strength(in that the suit got more power than the wearer) and can be loaded with heavy weaponry effective against a large range of foes. Plus coms and possibilities of tons of extra gear. With this, the wearer may jump around the battlefield, shoot his foes to oblivion and jump out again, only to drown someone unfornate in the same torrent of firepower.

Saying a suit of Power Armor is far superior is just plain wrong.

The_Tempest
28-04-2009, 22:45
Pulse weapons are plasma based. AdMech AI is actually not true AI in the way the Tau's is, but instead based on uploading conciousness (my personal theory is that this is based off necron tech*) as Titan AI is uploaded bear and lions, and Inquisitor has a few examples of important Magi uploading themselves to backup personality cores. They don't build them from scratch, 'Machine Spirit' is not as superstitious term as you might think they literally are ghosts digitally encoded onto the positronic cores.

I tend to think of the Machine Spirit as a soul rather than anything else. The whole emergance of the AdMech and the war with the Iron Men spurred from the "unholy" notion of the souless consciousness that was abundant in the golden age of technology. The tau accentually have the same A.I. technology now.

Mannimarco
28-04-2009, 22:58
its amazing how quickly something as simple as "what colour is tau metal" can change into "imperium tech is better than tau/no tau tech rules"

Tastyfish
28-04-2009, 23:09
I tend to think of the Machine Spirit as a soul rather than anything else. The whole emergance of the AdMech and the war with the Iron Men spurred from the "unholy" notion of the souless consciousness that was abundant in the golden age of technology. The tau accentually have the same A.I. technology now.

Its another interpretation, and in this case its very much in the eye of the beholder since that whole part is designed more to just add something cool to think about rather than reveal a new section of GW's secret plan (that said - there were some fluff references around the Armageddon 3 campaign to the Fall Revolution novels which featured the rise of a post-human culture).

To be honest I like this idea mainly because it seems that true AIs end up going a bit wierd and don't take an interest in the real world. Immortal humans in fast time competing with normals is something that is always going to end in tears.

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
28-04-2009, 23:19
its amazing how quickly something as simple as "what colour is tau metal" can change into "imperium tech is better than tau/no tau tech rules"

At least it's a relatively reasonable version. This topic can get pretty ugly.

Yarick Zan
28-04-2009, 23:31
Points I need to make because some people in this topic just don't seem to be able to grasp them:

1) What is the point of a Titan when it can be brought down with relative ease by something flying through the air which is infinitely more mobile? All a titan is is just a very large target. It's sort of like the reason why modern countries don't have huge battleships any more. They are just too big.

2) What is the point of saying you have better technology, if no one knows how to use it, it isn't common place, and no one can reproduce it?

3) What is the point of having a weapon that is slightly more powerful, but just as much a danger to its operator as to those people it's being fired at?

4) What is the point of something being called standard, especially when it comes to weapons, if there are at least 10 different kinds of standard among the area they control? As far as I can tell among the 30 or so Tau planets there is only 1 version of the pulse rifle. Take any 30 planets out of the whole Imperium and you might get 1 pattern or lasguns or you might get 30 patterns of lasguns.

5) What is the point of super long distance travel, when the area you control is comparatively very tiny?


EDIT:
Another thing I think the Imperium side is also not taking into account is the fact that their lasguns actually do have a very limited amount of power in their clips. Also recharging in certain ways either takes forever, or reduces the life of the power pack. Sure you can charge it in a fire, but then it might blow up in your face, and you reduce the clip size by I think half. Sure you can charge it using the sun, but I don't think you really want to wait a week to do that.

Anyways back on to topic, like has been said before, it would make sense that they use a plastic or a composite materials, and since in our day and age we can make them any color we want, go ahead and make it any color you want.

Col. Tartleton
28-04-2009, 23:59
Lets do some weapon run downs.

The Lasgun: Common and easy enough to make that you probably buy one for a few bucks from some tribal warlord on the ass end of space. However if you pay the additional three dollars for the energy pack you'll never need to buy another gun. Its nigh unbreakable, hardly needs maintenance just a clean the lens, weighs a few kilos, has a several hundred round clip that seems to magically recharge on its own when you leave it near a window. Its like an AK-47 is to an AK-47 is to an AK-47. Plus it does in fact have the strength of a large caliber rifle without the recoil. This means that you can almost guarantee accuracy with it on full auto because it shoots a laser... But on point its a large caliber assault rifle. A single shot can take off your arm if it hits in the shoulder. That's a .50 caliber weapon give or take. A las pistol is your .44 Magnum, if you get shot, you die. Ask Mr. Eastwood. If he was in the IG he'd be back to his glory days in a moment.

The Pulse Rifle: Top of the line technology. This is the main battle arm of the most elite fighting force the Tau can muster. Its a pulse weapon which means it uses a burst of power to turn a bit of matter into a puff of superheated plasma. It has two ammunition supplies. The simple particle container that holds the solid matter and the more rapidly extinguished power packs. The particle container bit is no problem, its a load of Sunday shoot for the next few months sort of ammunition. However, the power cells are much more fickle and require a backpack mounted charger of some weight in order to maintain effectiveness. This is a bit of a limiting factor. Regardless once you get it firing it will put big basketball sized holes in man sized targets and leave the rest of their body on fire. Its mighty impressive.

I say they're almost equal. The lasgun is more economical, the Pulse Rifle is more BA at first glance. But don't drop it or try to use it as a club to defend yourself because your dead anyway you miserable blue skinned antelope fish-eaters! :p
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Imperium of Man: Screw 11, We Cranked The Awesome To 9000 Cuz we have The God Emperor of Mankind (Dune) and Dark Age Super Tech

Tau Empire: We're still better... Cuz we've got Mecha Ninja Shock Troops

Audience: You're both Psychotic Fascist Regimes but we can't comprehend the scope of your evil and are arguing how cool you are!

kdog
29-04-2009, 01:15
i alwways thought Tau were more advanced but the current state of imperium has WAY more resources.

Brother Siccarius
29-04-2009, 01:19
(Ignoring the annoying and frequent "Who has better tech posts")


ok well i've made a downed gun drone on a scenic base, it has some bullet holes on it and i was wondering what colour would it be or would it even be metal or some odd futuristic ceramic type thing anyway any help would be great:D


thanks, J.D

The Tau will probably use Ceramics or lightweight metals for their drones. Plastic would be less weight, but also incredibly fragile to the point that I wouldn't put it on something that your sending directly into a fight.

Lightweight metals would be best. Most likely it's a type of metal we haven't seen, however.

On the other hand, the bullet holes in the metal or ceramic will deformed the material and energy weapons would leave a scorch mark around the hold, so the material in either case will not look the same as untouched material of the same type.
Harder plastics and ceramics would shatter or break at the point of impact, while metal would produce the iconic hole.

My suggestion is to use a Boltgun Metal color if you go with the drones being metal, because the impact point will be friction or heat corroded at the point where it impacted and melted the paint, especially because bolter ammo is self-propelled at a certain range. No matter what metal it is, it will not be a clean area where it was hit.
For ceramics I'd use Dheneb Stone.

Ddraiglais
29-04-2009, 06:14
Points I need to make because some people in this topic just don't seem to be able to grasp them:

1) What is the point of a Titan when it can be brought down with relative ease by something flying through the air which is infinitely more mobile? All a titan is is just a very large target. It's sort of like the reason why modern countries don't have huge battleships any more. They are just too big.

2) What is the point of saying you have better technology, if no one knows how to use it, it isn't common place, and no one can reproduce it?

3) What is the point of having a weapon that is slightly more powerful, but just as much a danger to its operator as to those people it's being fired at?

4) What is the point of something being called standard, especially when it comes to weapons, if there are at least 10 different kinds of standard among the area they control? As far as I can tell among the 30 or so Tau planets there is only 1 version of the pulse rifle. Take any 30 planets out of the whole Imperium and you might get 1 pattern or lasguns or you might get 30 patterns of lasguns.

5) What is the point of super long distance travel, when the area you control is comparatively very tiny?


EDIT:
Another thing I think the Imperium side is also not taking into account is the fact that their lasguns actually do have a very limited amount of power in their clips. Also recharging in certain ways either takes forever, or reduces the life of the power pack. Sure you can charge it in a fire, but then it might blow up in your face, and you reduce the clip size by I think half. Sure you can charge it using the sun, but I don't think you really want to wait a week to do that.

Anyways back on to topic, like has been said before, it would make sense that they use a plastic or a composite materials, and since in our day and age we can make them any color we want, go ahead and make it any color you want.

1-Because you can mount weapons on it that are more destructive than any non-titan race could ever dream of fielding on a battlefield. Also, not all titans are that huge and immobile. Warhounds have always been described as quick and nimble. As far as battleships are concerned, that's more a matter of expense and politics than effectiveness.

2-The people who need to know how to use the tech know how to use it. I'm sure keeping the majority of Imperial citizens ignorant also helps in contolling them.

3-The Imperium could lose a billion guardsmen tomorrow and barely bat an eye. Life is cheap in the Imperium.

4-Just because one has a wood stock or is a bullpup doesn't mean that the parts aren't standard. AFAIK any magazine will fit into any las gun. I believe the internal parts are pretty much the same too.

5-If you want to be a player in the galaxy, you find a way to move around it quickly. The Tau will never be an empire if they don't find a way around this. Until then, they are a small annoying group of systems that are mostly ignored by the other races.

So you only get 50ish shots from your magazines? The IG do carry more than one each. Also, the Imperium has a tendency to dominate the space above most warzones. Resupply is probably not a huge issue in most conflicts.

Here I agree. I think the Tau drones would be made out of some sort of composite materials. I doubt plastic would be used. It's too easily damaged. I would think a composite ceramic of some sort. Light metals could be another option, but ceramics are lighter and can be just as tough.

Marshal Sinclair
29-04-2009, 08:59
2. How the Warp can you say Power Armor is superior to Battlesuits? That's nonsense! The Power Armor makes the wearer very tough, supports it's own weigth and gives a sturdy exoskeletion for heavier weapons, but so what? A battlesuit has an inbuilt jump pack, is protective, enhances strength(in that the suit got more power than the wearer) and can be loaded with heavy weaponry effective against a large range of foes. Plus coms and possibilities of tons of extra gear. With this, the wearer may jump around the battlefield, shoot his foes to oblivion and jump out again, only to drown someone unfornate in the same torrent of firepower.

Saying a suit of Power Armor is far superior is just plain wrong.

Power Armour is a fraction of the size of a Tau Battle Suit. Power Armour comes with optional jump packs. It also increases the strength of it's user (by a lot), and comes doesn't need to come with hardwired weapons, because it's wearer doesn't lose the ability to manipulate objects. Imperial Power Armour and Tau Battle Suits perform exactly the same battlefield roll, except Power Armour is smaller, more maneuverable, more adaptable, will last longer in the field, and less restrictive. Not only that, but the Imperium equips entire armies with it.

If you wanted you could even compare Terminator armour to a Battle Suit. The Terminator armour is restrictive, so is equipped with multiple weapons (3 - Bolter, Fist, Missile Launcher), yet provides much more protection and comes equipped with personal teleporters.

borithan
29-04-2009, 09:08
Advanced weapons- Railguns, I'll grant you. That's a serious peice of firepower for such a package.Meh... the Railgun is a form of tech we aren't far off now. Probably one of the less advanced pieces of stuff they have. Certainly useful and practical regardless, but not hyper advanced.



However, look at, say, plasma. Sure, it's safer, but it's a good bit weaker, too.But equally advanced. From what I understand both Eldar and Tau have equally advanced plasma weaponry compared to the Imperium, just they choose to trade off power for greater safety, while the Imperium chooses, or is stuck with (depending on how well they understand it) a more powerful, but much less safe form.



Space Travel-
So you're saying they can? Check again. Score- Imperium: full warp travel capability.Yes, true, Imperium definitely have the edge here. Though part of that is down to the Navigators, which means they don't have to hop out every now and again to check direction. Imperial ships are, well, just generally better, at least in terms of raw power.



The Tau rule three dozen.Well... we don't know. We know they have about 3 dozen Septs. We don't know if Septs have minor colonies which are attached to them. But, yes, compared to the Imperium they are tiny.



And fire it does- lasguns have been likened to a solid .50cal.By daft sources. It is comparable to a modern assault rifle in punch. Always has been. That doesn't invalidate all the other points you have made about the lasgun though.


Now you do. Lasgun wounds have been, more than once, likened to that caused by a single .50cal round.By daft sources. It has the same strength as an autogun (always has), which has frequently been described as essentially being an assault rifle (just frequently with fancy gubbins like caseless ammunition, but even then sometimes just identical to a modern assault rifle). It has been described as "low-powered". And .50 cal machine guns (heavy stubbers) have a strength of 4. Lasguns do not have the punch of a .50 cal.


has a several hundred round clipAs far as I am aware most sources give it around 40-60 mark. Still good, and the ability to recharge makes it better, but not several hundred rounds.



The humble Lasgun (far and away more advanced than say a Bolter or Pulse Rifle)While I can agree on the bolter, as far as I am aware we know too little about the pulse rifle to judge whether it is less advanced than a lasgun. All I know about them is that I think I remember reading something about them basically being scaled down plasma weapons.


(is it 7000, 5000 or 2000? Highly doubt the last, but i've read it somewhere.)As far as I can remember it was about 2000 years from sticks and stones to interstellar travel. That was the amount of time they were sheltered from the Imperium by Warp Storms, before which they were about to be exterminated and were primitive. After the Imperium sent another expedition to deal with them they had developed to the extent they were not in a position where the tau could be easily swept aside.



Back to the op, I prefer a darker gray. I see the Tau using lots of ceramics and fabrics, as well as the plastic.Yes, I would agree... ceramics seem most likely. I don't know which colour though.

Lothlanathorian
29-04-2009, 10:51
I would go with a lighter gray, personally. But only as a thematic statement (everything in 40K is a shade of gray, the Tau are just a lighter gray than some of the others)

MajorWesJanson
29-04-2009, 11:51
Tau rule about 100 worlds as of the Taros campaign.

Kraxis
29-04-2009, 12:47
Power Armour is a fraction of the size of a Tau Battle Suit. Power Armour comes with optional jump packs. It also increases the strength of it's user (by a lot), and comes doesn't need to come with hardwired weapons, because it's wearer doesn't lose the ability to manipulate objects. Imperial Power Armour and Tau Battle Suits perform exactly the same battlefield roll, except Power Armour is smaller, more maneuverable, more adaptable, will last longer in the field, and less restrictive. Not only that, but the Imperium equips entire armies with it.

If you wanted you could even compare Terminator armour to a Battle Suit. The Terminator armour is restrictive, so is equipped with multiple weapons (3 - Bolter, Fist, Missile Launcher), yet provides much more protection and comes equipped with personal teleporters.

I am very aware that the size of power armor is far smaller than that of the battlesuit. I also know you may put on jump packs and all that. But power armor and battlesuits are NOT the same role. (and, once again, the number don't count for ****. The imperium has too much resources to cope with, and number is not equal to tech level)

The most common use for power armor is to protect it's wearer from damage, give them an exoskeletion to ease the use of heavy weaponry, and give an edge in melee. Or you can mount a jump pack to fly around, but the only practical uses for them are scouting, recon, and jump into melee with soft targets. The packs are not meant to be used in conjunction with heavy bolters or missile launchers.

This is very different from a battlesuit. A battlesuit protects its wearer, like power armor, but it's job is highly mobile heavy firepower. Not like any configuration of power armor. You don't see flying space marines with both a heavy bolter and a plasma rifle jumping around, do you? This also explains the size, as powering the weapons, flying, and the space needed to mount the weapons on all require space. Not like power armor, whose inbuilt power only keeps the armor going and supporting it's own weight. Different roles, but in pure power, i say the battlesuit is best. This is of course down to opinion and circumstances, but saying power armor is far better is wrong.


And that Terminator thing is just lol. Terminator armor slows down, protects like hell and can have heavier weapons, but again not the same role. Terminators don't jump in, kill the target and jump out again in secs.


Comparing two different types of technology is a poor way to decide the level of tech the race has.

Marshal Sinclair
29-04-2009, 13:08
I am very aware that the size of power armor is far smaller than that of the battlesuit. I also know you may put on jump packs and all that. But power armor and battlesuits are NOT the same role. (and, once again, the number don't count for ****. The imperium has too much resources to cope with, and number is not equal to tech level)

The most common use for power armor is to protect it's wearer from damage, give them an exoskeletion to ease the use of heavy weaponry, and give an edge in melee. Or you can mount a jump pack to fly around, but the only practical uses for them are scouting, recon, and jump into melee with soft targets. The packs are not meant to be used in conjunction with heavy bolters or missile launchers.

This is very different from a battlesuit. A battlesuit protects its wearer, like power armor, but it's job is highly mobile heavy firepower. Not like any configuration of power armor. You don't see flying space marines with both a heavy bolter and a plasma rifle jumping around, do you? This also explains the size, as powering the weapons, flying, and the space needed to mount the weapons on all require space. Not like power armor, whose inbuilt power only keeps the armor going and supporting it's own weight. Different roles, but in pure power, i say the battlesuit is best. This is of course down to opinion and circumstances, but saying power armor is far better is wrong.


And that Terminator thing is just lol. Terminator armor slows down, protects like hell and can have heavier weapons, but again not the same role. Terminators don't jump in, kill the target and jump out again in secs.


Comparing two different types of technology is a poor way to decide the level of tech the race has.

As with all military tech, size matters. Larger in no way equals better.

Terminators have the ability to jump in, kill everything, then jump out again. They do it better than Battlesuits too, since teleporters are much faster and give less warning than a jump pack.

Poseidal
29-04-2009, 13:23
For colour, I mostly use 'chainmail' for metals, then use washes for some variation. Sometimes I use golds and bronzes, but mostly for Fantasy or jewellery/bling.

Power Armour should be compared with Fire Warrior Armour.

It's the best, 'all round' armour that's not made as a bulky, mobile weapon platform and given to each factions best troops.

If the Imperium could afford to arm their un-enhanced troops, they would be more like Sisters of Battle. Power Armour and Bolt Gun are the equivalents for Fire Warrior Armour and Pulse Rifle, and even the Bolt Gun is much more compact too.

Kraxis
29-04-2009, 13:44
As with all military tech, size matters. Larger in no way equals better.

Terminators have the ability to jump in, kill everything, then jump out again. They do it better than Battlesuits too, since teleporters are much faster and give less warning than a jump pack.

I know size matters, but the battlesuit requires more size and bulk than power armor. This is a disadvantage, but is not enough to make battlesuits inefficent.

Terminators are not that way. I might not be very enlightened on the mechanics of personal teleporters, but i thought they needed some cooldown between uses? Also, they are highly dangerous, are they not? A jump pack has an abysmal chance of breaking down unless it has been shot, but a teleporter will sometimes(not too rare) blow a unit off course, maybe even into a big, sharp valley of mutated rock. That may equal death or inability to participate in the battle.

Another thing is the fact that Terminators is more suited to just stand around and blow up their enemies anyway.

Poseidal
29-04-2009, 13:48
Another thing is the fact that Terminators is more suited to just stand around and blow up their enemies anyway.
Terminators are tactical suits, and designed to be suitable if they need to go up close and personal or attack at shortish-range.

The fact that their weapons are mostly mid-short range (Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Storm Bolters) and they have close combat weapons suggests they are a 'mobile' unit rather than a static one.

Kraxis
29-04-2009, 13:54
With "stand around and blow up their enemies" i meant that they do not appear to be the highly mobile scalpel that the battlesuits are. With their awesome protection, i have always looked at them as a force that lands in the thick of it, shoots the hell out of everyone, or alternativlely go and smack them with power fists or lightening claws. Sorry for the poor choice of words. The essence is that they are operating pretty much in a restricted area of the field until they power up to make a new jump.

Ddraiglais
29-04-2009, 15:18
With "stand around and blow up their enemies" i meant that they do not appear to be the highly mobile scalpel that the battlesuits are. With their awesome protection, i have always looked at them as a force that lands in the thick of it, shoots the hell out of everyone, or alternativlely go and smack them with power fists or lightening claws. Sorry for the poor choice of words. The essence is that they are operating pretty much in a restricted area of the field until they power up to make a new jump.

Power armor has never been "stand around and blow up their enemies". Marines are a highly mobile assault force. It's just that their tactics consist of using a lot of APCs/IFVs and drop pods for your standard power armored marine.

Kraxis
29-04-2009, 15:26
Power armor has never been "stand around and blow up their enemies". Marines are a highly mobile assault force. It's just that their tactics consist of using a lot of APCs/IFVs and drop pods for your standard power armored marine.

I have been misunderstood AGAIN. I'm good at that. If you read over it, i say TERMINATOR-ARMOURED marines, not power armour marines. Being a very mobile battleforce is one thing, but power armor guys is not very mobile on their own(inferior to battlesuits in this regard) and terminators have always struck me as a unit that fights the way i described. A quick force may well stand still when they have gotten into position, as long as they can move away quickly afterwards.

Let's see if everyone gets it this time.

Poseidal
29-04-2009, 15:31
As an Eldar player, I can say this:

Being a very mobile battleforce is one thing, but Battlesuit guys is not very mobile on their own (inferior to the jetbikes we give our bakers in this regard).

Kraxis
29-04-2009, 15:35
As an Eldar player, I can say this:

Being a very mobile battleforce is one thing, but Battlesuit guys is not very mobile on their own (inferior to the jetbikes we give our bakers in this regard).


Those are Eldar, dammit. A fresh breeze is enough to send them away at the speed of light. Not fair:)

Eldar = too fast for their own good.

Battlesuits are not as mobile as Eldar(few is) but they got some nice manouvreability, and lots of speed compared the majority of heavy infantry.

Poseidal
29-04-2009, 15:40
Battlesuits are not as mobile as Eldar(few is) but they got some nice manouvreability, and lots of speed compared the majority of heavy infantry.
For sure.

To be honest, I think it's a design philosophy thing. The Imperium has jump packs, but doesn't put them on Terminators in favour of Teleporters.

Kraxis
29-04-2009, 15:46
Yup, i've thought about that too and found it weird, unless the armor weights VERY much without ground under it's feet.

kikkoman
29-04-2009, 15:56
If you want the very top of the line the Imperium has in personal body armor though...

it would be the teleporting indestructible short range firepower/choppy folks,
who are also invisible, Grey Knights.
and their guns kill space demons. Do they penetrate force fields too in the fluff?

You've also got the Imperial Assassins. Exitus Rifle is an ap2 (1?) rifle, Exitus pistol is... s5 right? Though I never found out why in the background it's so dang powerful.

That fellow also has a stealth suit that fits skin tight, no bulk. And he can detect other stealthed units with his compact face visor.

Neural disruptor will melt your brain through your armor, used by somebody who can shapeshift.

Kraxis
29-04-2009, 16:01
If you want the very top of the line the Imperium has in personal body armor though...

it would be the teleporting indestructible short range firepower/choppy folks,
who are also invisible, Grey Knights.

and their guns kill space demons. Do they penetrate force fields too in the fluff?

Isn't all grey knight equipment's strength based on the user's psyker abilities?

SabrX
29-04-2009, 16:03
It's quite annoying when people make the fallacy of comparing the Imperium when it was at it's technological peak in the 35th millennium to the Tau in 40th millennium. During the short period, Tau's technological growth exponentially increased at an alarming rate. In the current 40th millennium, their technology is in some aspects superior compared to the current Imperium. It remains to be see what other innovations or advances in weaponry the Tau will come up with in later years to come while at the same time, the Imperium's techno superiority is regressing. Currently, both are diverging where Tau is constantly increasing and the Immperium is decreasing. Anyways, if anyone justifies comparing the past Imperium to the current Tau then it's only fair to compare future Tau (45th?) to the past Imperium (35th), by which we can only imagine how much more the differences in technological superiority.

Aliarzathanil
29-04-2009, 16:07
Ah, the old power armor vs. Battlesuit debate...

Sorry, power armor wins.

A couple of advantages:

It's smaller. This makes it
-easier to transport
-more suitable to urban and ship to ship combat (common battle zones unlike the tabletop experience would suggest)
-a smaller target

More adaptable
-Marines can change weapons on the fly which is an asset in close quarters combat
-jump packs can be removed when they're not needed to save weight
-can be equipped with anti-tank (short and long range) anti personnel (again, long and short range) as well as close combat.

In an open field with little to no cover, the battlesuit might be better, but I doubt this would be a common type of fight. Dense terrain favors the smaller, more versatile armor.

This whole argument usually avoids the fact that the marine in the suit is a superior technological accomplishment to nearly anything the Tau have.

The tau aren't know for their bio engineering.

Kraxis
29-04-2009, 16:33
We know nothing about the Tau skills at bio-engineering, but it is probably poor. Still, it MAY be of some use, but not as good as the Imperium's stuff in this field.

You talked about an open field with little cover. This is the situation that the battlesuit DON'T excel in. How are they going to do their job when it is so open that every single heavy weapon the enemy has got a good chance of smoking the suit? Battlesuits excel in areas with much cover, but not dense forests and such. It's still plenty of areas they could fight in, and spaceships is one of them. Their suits give them lots of control with their weapons which a marine cannot match, as he's got to aim with the weapon. The battlesuit is merely holding your arm out to the target, not holding a gun in a special direction. Don't drop it either.

And I STILL thin battlesuits are better. Manouvreability, heavy firepower and adequate protection seems nice.

EDIT: When it comes to bording, the Tau and Imperium wouldn't do that to eachother a lot. I mean, a Tau ship can be smoked in secs by a lot of imperial ships, so bording between is probably rare.

Marshal Sinclair
29-04-2009, 16:56
So the only real advantage you have given for Battlesuits over Power Armour is that suits have inbuilt targeting systems and weapons. Power Armour also has inbuilt targeting systems, and not having it's weapons built in is an advantage, as it makes the unit more tactically flexible. Can you imagine a Battlesuit pressing the button to open an elevator / lift? Or does he have to get out of his suit to do it? ;)

EDIT: I thought we'd established that Battlesuits are NOT more maneuverable? Jump packs!

Yarick Zan
29-04-2009, 16:58
Biggest problem with most of the power armor vs battle suit debates is I think most people are completely ignorant of the fact that the common crisis battle suit isn't the only one out there. From what I can tell there are only 3 official versions of battle suits when it comes to size, the XV-1x series, the XV-2x series, and the XV-8x series. The bigger the number the larger the suit.

Sorry Kraxis but I think I just put your whole size arguement out the window there. Also do you know how hard it is to change the hard points on a battle suit? I sure don't. Instead I think I will have two hard points for both anti armor and anti infantry capabilities while my pilot is upgraded with augmentics. Your point about weapons is also entirely moot because you are talking about two different ideals when it comes to fighting. The Tau eschew hand to hand combat. What is the point of getting into hand to hand when you can easily shoot the problem from far away and not have to worry about it at all?

So when you talk about power armor being better because it's smaller, remember there is probably a team of XV-15 battle suits right behind you that your sensors can't pick up ready to unload a few burst cannons into your back.

Kraxis
29-04-2009, 17:06
So the only real advantage you have given for Battlesuits over Power Armour is that suits have inbuilt targeting systems and weapons. Power Armour also has inbuilt targeting systems, and not having it's weapons built in is an advantage, as it makes the unit more tactically flexible. Can you imagine a Battlesuit pressing the button to open an elevator / lift? Or does he have to get out of his suit to do it? ;)

EDIT: I thought we'd established that Battlesuits are NOT more maneuverable? Jump packs!

Inbuilt stuff, yes, that's basically it. Lots of inbuilt stuff, and lots of upgrades. While not having inbuilt weapons might be advantegous, it may also be good to build them in. Unlike the tactical marine that just got knocked over by a mighty impact, the Crisis suit is not going to drop weapons, or use time on complex aiming. Saves very little time, but it is something.

Jump packs don't have anything to say. The whole point about battlesuits is that you get BOTH two heavy weapons AND a jump pack, otherwise they would never send something that big out. A marine may have either a single heavy weapon OR a jump pack. Very big difference.

Kraxis
29-04-2009, 17:11
Biggest problem with most of the power armor vs battle suit debates is I think most people are completely ignorant of the fact that the common crisis battle suit isn't the only one out there. From what I can tell there are only 3 official versions of battle suits when it comes to size, the XV-1x series, the XV-2x series, and the XV-8x series. The bigger the number the larger the suit.

Sorry Kraxis but I think I just put your whole size arguement out the window there. Also do you know how hard it is to change the hard points on a battle suit? I sure don't. Instead I think I will have two hard points for both anti armor and anti infantry capabilities while my pilot is upgraded with augmentics. Your point about weapons is also entirely moot because you are talking about two different ideals when it comes to fighting. The Tau eschew hand to hand combat. What is the point of getting into hand to hand when you can easily shoot the problem from far away and not have to worry about it at all?

So when you talk about power armor being better because it's smaller, remember there is probably a team of XV-15 battle suits right behind you that your sensors can't pick up ready to unload a few burst cannons into your back.

Is the size argument out the window? I thought I said the working principles of the suit demanded some size. If i said something wrong or strange, please clarify more.

Have i said the battlesuit is going into melee? No, i know very well that enemies are obliterated at range. Tau is my favorite(if naive) race.

Sorry for double posting.

P.S: I'm not a native english speaker. What is "moot?" Stupid garbage?

Yarick Zan
29-04-2009, 17:12
Inbuilt stuff, yes, that's basically it. Lots of inbuilt stuff, and lots of upgrades. While not having inbuilt weapons might be advantegous, it may also be good to build them in. Unlike the tactical marine that just got knocked over by a mighty impact, the Crisis suit is not going to drop weapons, or use time on complex aiming. Saves very little time, but it is something.

Jump packs don't have anything to say. The whole point about battlesuits is that you get BOTH two heavy weapons AND a jump pack, otherwise they would never send something that big out. A marine may have either a single heavy weapon OR a jump pack. Very big difference.

Or you know you could send out a smaller more stealthy battle suit that has an active camo system rendering it almost invisible armed with what essentially amounts to a heavy bolter. Just food for thought.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/moot

I chose this one since I am using it to refer to your point.

"to reduce or remove the practical significance of; make purely theoretical or academic."

Hand to hand weapons mean little to the Tau. They don't have them (some aberrations do exist) because it is their ideal that the enemy should be shot from a long distance away.

Also the reason the size arguement is out the window is because people (I think yourself included) keep on referring to the battlesuit. The fact is there are at least 3 different sizes of battlesuits like I said. XV15s, XV-22, and 25, and the XV-8, 81, 84, 89, 89-2. As I said the first number is a designation of size.

Ddraiglais
29-04-2009, 17:13
I have been misunderstood AGAIN. I'm good at that. If you read over it, i say TERMINATOR-ARMOURED marines, not power armour marines. Being a very mobile battleforce is one thing, but power armor guys is not very mobile on their own(inferior to battlesuits in this regard) and terminators have always struck me as a unit that fights the way i described. A quick force may well stand still when they have gotten into position, as long as they can move away quickly afterwards.

Let's see if everyone gets it this time.

Then your point is even less valid. In addition to land raiders, terminators can teleport. Being able to teleport to any part of the battlefield would make a force even faster. Granted, termies aren't that fast once they get where they're going (unless they have a LR), but marines can get massive firepower to any point on the battlefield they want.

theunwantedbeing
29-04-2009, 17:19
Power armour beats tau battlesuits.
It's far smaller and lighter and grants the same abilties with greater flexibility, not to mention its worn not piloted.

It's quite easy to make a tank you drive around in that's night invulnerable.
It's another thing entirely to turn that tank into a suit with the exact same level of invulnerability but without losing any of the advantages of being human sized, not vehicle sized.

Battlesuits do have some advantages over power armour though, however these advantage are more built around being just plain bigger. If we want to bother with that argument we can just say that imperial tch beats tau tech as the imperium have titans.
Titans are way better and more powerful than any crisis suit is.

As for tau metal...
I'de go with some dark grey/black colour with the inner part being shinier than the outer part. More a sort of composite plastic than metal, albeit with similar properties to metal but generally just lighter.

The whole shiny silver look doesnt seem to quite fit for me with tau.
No doubt they'de layer it up with various paint layers as well so any damage would show those different paint layers as well.

Kraxis
29-04-2009, 17:21
Then your point is even less valid. In addition to land raiders, terminators can teleport. Being able to teleport to any part of the battlefield would make a force even faster. Granted, termies aren't that fast once they get where they're going (unless they have a LR), but marines can get massive firepower to any point on the battlefield they want.

That seems to be my point. A highly mobile force with a unit that is slow once it gets to it's destination. When they get there they pretty much stands around and blow up/bash in stuff until it's time to move, at which point they are mobile again. This is because they teleport or is taken in a land raider, but this is not happening WHILE THEY FIGHT.

Yarick Zan
29-04-2009, 17:24
[QUOTE=theunwantedbeing;3523908]Power armour beats tau battlesuits.
It's far smaller and lighter and grants the same abilties with greater flexibility, not to mention its worn not piloted.[QUOTE]

For the last time stop propogating this type of tomfoolery. For the last time, there are many sizes of battle suits. Using battle suits as a blanket term encompasses all. The XV-15 is for example is essentially power armor.


The only really big thing I have to say about the titan arguement is this: Take a look at the Damocles gulf campaign, then after you have done that, take a look at the Taros campaign. What happened there? Oh yes most if not all of the Imperial Titans were taken out by Tiger Shark AX 1-0s.

Balance-keeper
29-04-2009, 17:26
And another point people arn't taking into account with the battlesuits...They have multi visual arrays and multiple ways of controling (via Fluff) So what if your power armour is can resist a few shoots and is smaller, a) a battle suit can resist more weapons...(better armoured) B) their targeting sensors are ment to find targets like that...

Aswell as having a much longer range and stronger weapons...

Then you move on to the stealth suits...yes they are smaller and not as tough..but they can render their wearer invisable just like the grey knights (but remeber the grey knights are the best the imperium has..their armour isn't the same as power armour) and the stealth suits still have the targerting abilites of the others...

and As shown but the Fluff and the game/codex...tau tech is goin on another tech leap...with the new suits having inbuild sheild generators as standard...(that beats the power armour) (Ref. tau codex - shadowsun) XV22.

And even if that doesn't be come the standard suit..i'll bet another one simlier will!!

Marshal Sinclair
29-04-2009, 17:29
What happened there? Oh yes most if not all of the Imperial Titans were taken out by Tiger Shark AX 1-0s.

One Scout Titan was destroyed. The Ad Mech support was then withdrawn as it was only expended as a favour anyway.

Kraxis
29-04-2009, 17:29
Or you know you could send out a smaller more stealthy battle suit that has an active camo system rendering it almost invisible armed with what essentially amounts to a heavy bolter. Just food for thought.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/moot

I chose this one since I am using it to refer to your point.

"to reduce or remove the practical significance of; make purely theoretical or academic."

Hand to hand weapons mean little to the Tau. They don't have them (some aberrations do exist) because it is their ideal that the enemy should be shot from a long distance away.

Also the reason the size arguement is out the window is because people (I think yourself included) keep on referring to the battlesuit. The fact is there are at least 3 different sizes of battlesuits like I said. XV15s, XV-22, and 25, and the XV-8, 81, 84, 89, 89-2. As I said the first number is a designation of size.

When i refer to the battlesuit, i talk about Crisis suits, which i believe most people do. The different sizes i know of is the different Stealths, the Crisis suit and the Broadside.

You like Stealthsuits? I too, but sometimes you just need a pair of big guns. Apart from that, i love having a band of crisis suits shoot up orks like theres no tomorrow.

I have never said anything about Tau hand to hand weapons, and are aware of the Tau battle philosophy.

Aliarzathanil
29-04-2009, 17:30
I think the fact that power armour can be used in most of the roles that all these different types of battlesuits are used in actually shows the advantage the suits have. Different weapons, different roles, same armor.

If you want to include broadsides and and the other types of crisis suits in the argument I think you need to compare them to Dreads and terminators.

Not favoring hand to hand doesn't mean you don't lose some flexibility by sucking at it.

Kraxis
29-04-2009, 17:32
We lose flexibility and makes up for it with greater firepower.

Yarick Zan
29-04-2009, 17:35
A person need not worry about hand to hand when the enemy lies dead well over 300 yards away.

Also as to an earlier arguement:

Wouldn't it be better to still have those 1 billion soldiers of the Imperium still fighting, so they could kill even more enemies instead of them becoming casualties of their own weapons? If you fight and live that means you can live to keep on fighting.

Balance-keeper
29-04-2009, 17:35
And what good is flexibility....if your being shot at by 2 plasma based weapons (per suit)...in other words dead

Yarick Zan - ya beat me too it

Marshal Sinclair
29-04-2009, 17:36
Greater firepower means nothing against a small, fastmoving object. Such as a drop pod or Assault Marine.

This is getting rediculous. I am not a Marine fan, but I do acknowledge that Power Armour (and therefore Terminator Armour) is the best personal body armour in the 40k galaxy, with the exception of certain Eldar armour. Hell, Crisis suits aren't even personal body armour they are small vehicles, and they only provide roughly the same protection.


A person need not worry about hand to hand when the enemy lies dead well over 300 yards away.

How about when the enemy drop / teleport right into your lap, or when there are so many enemies (such as Nids) that you CANNOT shoot them all before they reach your lines?

Kraxis
29-04-2009, 17:39
Greater firepower means nothing against a small, fastmoving object. Such as a drop pod or Assault Marine.

This is getting rediculous. I am not a Marine fan, but I do acknowledge that Power Armour (and therefore Terminator Armour) is the best personal body armour in the 40k galaxy, with the exception of certain Eldar armour. Hell, Crisis suits aren't even personal body armour they are small vehicles, and they only provide roughly the same protection

And we're telling you that stuff like that is ********, power armor is in no way better. Maybe equal, but NOT superior.

Great firepower means nothing against small fas objects? Haha. May be that it is a good chance to miss, but it ain't that hard to hit with such weaponry and aiming.

Balance-keeper
29-04-2009, 17:40
Greater firepower means nothing against a small, fastmoving object. Such as a drop pod or Assault Marine.

As sed b4 their targeting sensors are good at hitting stuff like that since its the suit that targets... and its a machine its got good aim

Brother Siccarius
29-04-2009, 17:45
Can there never be a Tau discussion without this invading it?

Look, Imperial Tech is amazing for what they use it for, as is Tau Tech. There's no comparing the two because both use it for entirely different things, and both have entirely different approaches to how they use it.

Tau have great control over their technology, enought that they are continually developing it, however, it's not as powerful as "Imperial" Tech.

The Imperium has no claim to the technology it uses with the exception of Power Armor and Terminator Armor, which was their actual invention, not just stolen from the Dark Ages. The reason the Imperium has no claim to their technology is because they did not invent it, they did not exist when it was invented, they have very little knowledge regarding it, and they don't develop it without imposing massive restrictions that have nothing to do with the technology itself. Their technology, with few exceptions, was built by an earlier age. To say that their technology is Imperial is to hold up a Gladius and say that it is Italian technology, and not Roman. Just because you're living in the same area a hundred or thousand years after the civilization's downfall, doesn't mean you have the right to claim their inventions as your own.

Kraxis
29-04-2009, 17:47
Can there never be a Tau discussion without this invading it?

Look, Imperial Tech is amazing for what they use it for, as is Tau Tech. There's no comparing the two because both use it for entirely different things, and both have entirely different approaches to how they use it.

Tau have great control over their technology, enought that they are continually developing it, however, it's not as powerful as "Imperial" Tech.

The Imperium has no claim to the technology it uses with the exception of Power Armor and Terminator Armor, which was their actual invention, not just stolen from the Dark Ages. The reason the Imperium has no claim to their technology is because they did not invent it, they did not exist when it was invented, they have very little knowledge regarding it, and they don't develop it without imposing massive restrictions that have nothing to do with the technology itself. Their technology, with few exceptions, was built by an earlier age. To say that their technology is Imperial is to hold up a Gladius and say that it is Italian technology, and not Roman. Just because you're living in the same area a hundred or thousand years after the civilization's downfall, doesn't mean you have the right to claim their inventions as your own.


Excellently put. Too bad it's a bit long for a sig.

Balance-keeper
29-04-2009, 17:49
well thats a good point....

and i does make perfect sence....

Marshal Sinclair
29-04-2009, 17:50
I think we all should read Kraxis' signature. You don't want to listen to evidence, you aren't interested in which would actually have more real world advantages, you just want your "Tau is teh roxxors".

Maybe we should leave this open to the serving or retired solders on the board. Would you rather have a suit of Imperial Power Armour, or a Battle Suit, and why?

I'd prefer the former, because how can I fight if I am stuck inside a metal cube? With Power Armour I still have the full range of movement, as well as all my senses. Plus, and this is incredibly important, I can hide. Even if it is just on the floor prone, it reduces the amount of "me" I show to the enemy. Not possible with a Battlesuit. I don't care if it has less weapons, as I don't need a weapon for every possible battlefield situation, as I have my buddies next to me, and they will have those weapons.

Balance-keeper
29-04-2009, 17:53
but you know this arguement will never stop until gamesworkshop say which is better....
well saying that they never will say which is better...
If you say that most of the imperiums tech isn't the imperiums tech...
then the tau must be at least as advanced since all of their tech IS their own and it works as it was suppose to.

MajorWesJanson
29-04-2009, 17:57
Why do people consider Tau crisis suits to be treated like infantry? You aren't going to have battlesuits huddled in a trench taking cover, so those abilities don't matter. A fair comparison is marines vs fire warriors, since both play the same role.

In real life terms, a battlesuit is probably equivalent to an attack helicopter. Able to get in and out, carries a lot of firepower, designed to hit targets and get out, not stick around in the dirt.

Kraxis
29-04-2009, 17:57
I think we all should read Kraxis' signature. You don't want to listen to evidence, you aren't interested in which would actually have more real world advantages, you just want your "Tau is teh roxxors".

Maybe we should leave this open to the serving or retired solders on the board. Would you rather have a suit of Imperial Power Armour, or a Battle Suit, and why?

I'd prefer the former, because how can I fight if I am stuck inside a metal cube? With Power Armour I still have the full range of movement, as well as all my senses. Plus, and this is incredibly important, I can hide. Even if it is just on the floor prone, it reduces the amount of "me" I show to the enemy. Not possible with a Battlesuit. I don't care if it has less weapons, as I don't need a weapon for every possible battlefield situation, as I have my buddies next to me, and they will have those weapons.

Now, i haven't said "Tau is best at everything" have I? I think i did more of the opposite really. But now i give up this thread.


And someone, make a power armor vs battlesuit thread. If it ain't got a thread of it's own, every other thread will devolve the way this thread did.

Marshal Sinclair
29-04-2009, 18:01
By that logic we are not very advanced, because we never even invented roads!

EDIT: Hmmm... This makes no sense! Somebody has been post deleting/editing, I think!

Brother Siccarius
29-04-2009, 18:14
By that logic we are not very advanced, because we never even invented roads!

EDIT: Hmmm... This makes no sense! Somebody has been post deleting/editing, I think!

We invented the Highway, which "improved" on the road. We never invented the road, we improved it. So it's not quite the same. We've advanced because we can improve and invent, not because we started the basics.

The Imperium, on the other hand, does not improve. They believe that the technology they find is holy, and place much more emphasis on not violating this technology than they ever have on creating technology and improving it.

Marshal Sinclair
29-04-2009, 18:19
Of course they improve. :rolleyes: Just very slowly. Why do you think you get LR Mk2, new versions of weapons etc. In IA3 there is a research station dedicated to biological research. If the Mechanicus didn't research anything, why do they have toxins designed to kill Tyranids? The Imperium / Mechanicus does advance, just at a glacial pace.

Brother Siccarius
29-04-2009, 22:59
Of course they improve. :rolleyes: Just very slowly. Why do you think you get LR Mk2,
Because GW updated their models and fans called the new ones MK2 and the Old ones MK1, the name stuck.


new versions of weapons etc.
The Imperium is huge, and the amount of data the Mechanicus actually has is amazing. When you see a "new" weapon, they're always mentioned as being something that's been in use for some time. Likewise, it's always one of two things based on an existing design: 1) it's larger or 2) it's got more of them. When someone wants to stick something else on the machine, the Mechanicus prays to their god/consults the engineering schematics, and sticks a piece of tech that already exists in there. The difference is, that the Land Raider, Leman Russ, Rhino, Chimaera, and other chassis are already mod-able designs that they picked up.

In IA3 there is a research station dedicated to biological research. If the Mechanicus didn't research anything, why do they have toxins designed to kill Tyranids? The Imperium / Mechanicus does advance, just at a glacial pace.

We were talking Tech here, not Biology. Kind of side swiping me with a new issue and trying to apply my words to a different subject, but I'll bite. They do research some things, such as plague, or chaos, or any of the multitude of things that the mechanicus doesn't consider sacred. Hell they spend most their lives trying to avoid their own biology. The Imperium does not advance in technology, what they do advance in is different ways to apply the tech they do have. If all the imperium had for delivering liquids was a bomb or a supersoaker, you can bet they'd be delivering those toxins in bombs, and the guardsmen would spend four minutes pumping their anti-tyranid weapons before firing, rather than coming up with something else.

Ddraiglais
30-04-2009, 06:08
That seems to be my point. A highly mobile force with a unit that is slow once it gets to it's destination. When they get there they pretty much stands around and blow up/bash in stuff until it's time to move, at which point they are mobile again. This is because they teleport or is taken in a land raider, but this is not happening WHILE THEY FIGHT.

The role of terminators is to bring massive firepower to key areas of the battlefield. They don't have to be that mobile once they get there. They arrive, overwhelm the opposition, then move on. I guess we're agreeing on how terminators work. We're just disagreeing on whether it's a good thing or not.


A person need not worry about hand to hand when the enemy lies dead well over 300 yards away.

Also as to an earlier arguement:

Wouldn't it be better to still have those 1 billion soldiers of the Imperium still fighting, so they could kill even more enemies instead of them becoming casualties of their own weapons? If you fight and live that means you can live to keep on fighting.

With drop pods, teleporting, city fighting etc; said person does need to worry. Battles are almost never fought on your terms or how you planned them.

That was one of my comments.

Why? Just send in the next billion. When you have a near-endless supply of something, it's value diminishes greatly. Look at business. If there's a lot of some product, then it's cheap. If it's more rare, then it has a high value. OPEC cuts oil production all the time to keep prices high. In the Imperium, there are trillions of guardsmen. What are they really worth? Since their lives aren't worth that much, it makes sense to give them a weapon that gives them an advantage, even if it MIGHT kill them. On top of that, how many lives are saved because the IG have a weapon system that gives them that much firepower?

Just as a side note: When talking about nuclear weapons Mao once said that "China has many people...The deaths of ten or twenty million people is nothing to be afraid of." He later upped that figure to 300 million. That's the same sort of mentality you have in the Imperium. The difference being that China had just under a billion people when Mao said that, and the Imperium has trillions upon trillions.

borithan
30-04-2009, 14:34
Why do you think you get LR Mk2, new versions of weapons etc.Its a different version of the same thing. A different design. Just being a new design doesn't make anything more advanced technology.

Oh, and it could simply be a different version of the Land Raider STC, ie, it just looks very slightly different, but has the exact same capabilities. Isn't that the excuse they use for different looking designs?