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Hellfury
28-04-2009, 20:54
I have a question regarding stats going to zero or below. While we have precedence for fight going to zero due to failing a terror check, I am curious if other stats can go to zero or even into negative integers.

Specifically, I am curious about the Courage stat going to zero or below.

Here is an example:
Angmar vs. Elves.
Elves have a 2 company formation of high elf cohort which has Gil Galad along for the ride.
Angmar has a 3 company formation of spectral hosts which includes The Tainted.

Grima Wormtongue has been inserted into the high elf cohort formation making that formation -1 Fight and -2 Courage.
(Keep in mind that The Tainted disallows a formation the use of a hero's Courage value within 12")
The Tainted casts Sunder Spirit (Dismay Spell) on that formation to reduce their courage by 1 or 3 points of Courage. This effectively reduces the high elf cohort to zero courage if the sunder spirit roll is good.

Now since the courage is now zero, if the tainted then cast visions of woe on that formation, would they test on -2 as normal (effectively requiring a roll of 12 to make their courage test of 10)?

Also, would it be impossible for that unit to pass a courage test if it had transfix cast on it and a roll of 6 was made for the spell (-3 courage test, thus impossible to make a score of 10 on 2D6 for the elves)?

I am very curious if there is any rules I have missed that says you can or cannot reduce a stat to below zero, for atleast the purposes of making a check.

This scenario would make gil galad's unit pretty much dead on lucky angmar focus rolls if gil galad's huge might pool was reduced to minimal levels so he has tough choices on making will of iron rolls. (nearly autofailing terror checks unless might and a VERy lucky roll is made, huge losses from visions of woe, reduced to a non combatant due to transfix/pall of night, etc.)

Thanks for any thoughts on the matter.

Sarah S
28-04-2009, 21:13
Well, Denethor is a pretty good precedent for stats being zero, but I don't know about stats going below zero.

Nu Fenix
28-04-2009, 21:51
Stats cannot be reduced below 0.

Explained in the Absolute Zero rule in the grey text box, page 29.

Also, the penalty to the Courage tests with spells such as Transfix and Visions of Woe, are they a penalty to the dice, or the characteristic? If the latter, then there is no point overloading on the modifiers as you will hit 0 quite quickly. But if its a penalty to the dice themself, that is an entirely different story.

Edonil
28-04-2009, 21:52
Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with the scenario you proposed, ruleswise. It's a bit of a difficult one to pull off (requires a lot of luck to work as effectively as you describe) but a negative courage means that you roll dice, and add a negative number. Is this nasty? Yep. If you could force someone to -2 Courage, they'd need a 12 to pass. painful, but doable.

Edit- alright, after taking a look at the page 29 box (nice catch Fenix) I do agree, you can't reduce a stat below 0. However, the negative modifiers list for spells like transfix are 'Courage test at -3' which I would interpret as a negative to the dice.

Axis
29-04-2009, 06:53
My query is similar. If a unit with spirit grasp attacks a unit with 0 courage (e.g. from spells or whatever) do they automatically wound? Or do you treat the unit as courage 1.

Rirekon
29-04-2009, 08:07
I believe they automatically hit, the book does mention that you can have automatic successes

dvdhwk
29-04-2009, 08:12
the book does mention that you can have automatic successes
Could you point out exactly where it says that. I haven't seen anything of the sort. In fact there's been a lot of discussion here and on other boards about auto hits.

Nu Fenix
29-04-2009, 12:22
I would still wound on 3's unless you had anything to improve it.

The reason being, this game doesn't have any rule about penalties for a stat of 0. Not until they make an FAQ and Errata to explain the various questions and mistakes found so far.

Hellfury
30-04-2009, 16:38
Thanks for finding the rule, Nu Fenix.

So since a stat cannot be brought below zero, it seems reasonable that a stat could be checked at a negative integer.

Denethor is a great example of this. If he has to make a check at say, -3 courage then he would need a 13 or higher on 3D6 (denethor's special courage roll). Other units who were brought down to 0 courage and forced to make a courage roll @ -3 would seem to auto fail unless they could also somehow roll 3D6.