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Darwin_green
28-04-2009, 23:38
I'm wanting to start a 1000 WoC list with lots of chaos knights. I was wondering, would it be a good or bad idea to feature a hero on a chariot?

And would a sorcerer or a exulted champion work better?

Kalec
29-04-2009, 00:20
An exalted champ is never worth it unless he is a BSB or flying.

Take the sorcerer.

Frep
29-04-2009, 00:30
Well what about a bsb on a chariot, gives him a decent movement range and a big boost to his armour save. I know you never want him fighting alone but a chariot working in conjunction with some knight might be fun, and since a chariot mount is cheaper than a standard one you're ahead of the game.

Darwin_green
29-04-2009, 00:49
well, the only way you could have a flying exulted champ is to mount him on a disk.

Chariots are cheaper than Manticores and dragons, but only chaos Lords can ride those. So chariots are the expensive option for hero level characters. What is nice about hero chariots is that they don't take up a special slot. Which helps with all of the chaos knights I'll be fielding eventually.

what is crazy is that the sorcerer has pretty much the same stats as a chaos knight, minus the cool weapon. but, his magic more than makes up for it.

Soporific musk seems like a fun gift for any model mounted on a steed or a chariot. Though fury of the blood god seems cool for any sorcerer, especially a scroll caddy.

Isabel
29-04-2009, 02:20
Soporific musk seems like a fun gift for any model mounted on a steed or a chariot. Though fury of the blood god seems cool for any sorcerer, especially a scroll caddy.

Unfortunatly, if he takes Fury, he would not be able to take the scroll. If he takes fury, he cannot take any magic items. Great gift for a BSB with a magic standard though, since that is still legal.

Witchblade
29-04-2009, 02:25
Magic standards fall under the magic items category, no? I tried that trick, but I figured banners are still under the header 'magic items'.

Isabel
29-04-2009, 02:28
I'm honestly not sure how GW rules work with it. All I know is that it's legal through Army Builder hahah, not very reliable though. They could have made a mistake ;)

Darwin_green
29-04-2009, 02:43
ok, how could I use a sorcerer on a chariot in a cavalry-centric force?

Darwin_green
29-04-2009, 04:44
actually, I think I'm just going to sculpt a chaos sorcerer on a chaos steed and convert my chariot into an chaos war shrine(not that I'll really use it, but ti seems like a fun project.).

Peregijn
29-04-2009, 05:56
wel chariots can not march so where your knights go 14" over the table your chariot only gous 7"
so mount up and enyou the charge from insite your unit of knights

Avian
29-04-2009, 06:30
A BSB in a chariot isn't a bad idea, I frequently run one in my greenskin army. Give him the War Banner and a halberd / flail and shield and you have a quite robust little unit.

I probably wouldn't take him in an army where everything else can march 14+ inches, but that is another matter.

(My own BSB flies around on a Disc.)

sulla
29-04-2009, 07:31
In 7th edition, chaos chariots are so powerful they don't really need a character to beef them; they can take on ranked units on their own. Especially khorne chariots.

But if you do want to use a hero on one (and it is a cool idea), a halberd is all he realy needs and then the chariot can even take on heavy cav. Spend as many points of your magic allowance on protection for the character as he is rather exposed and will be a tempting target for all sorts of missile fire.
BSB is also a nice option if you have the points.

rottahn
29-04-2009, 08:12
your WoC characters should be the named ones, or sorcerers. and if you bring a BSB, it needs to be a Tzeentch one with the book of secrets. the characters in the WoC book arent worth it imo.
chaos lords are utter trash.
DPs are amazing, if you spend 500pts on them.

Jericho
29-04-2009, 08:28
I think it's Sorc or BSB if you're going to take a Chariot at all. You want the US5 so that you can claim a flank/rear bonus and/or negate rank bonus. It helps a ton. Use this guy in conjunction with infantry and he's really good.

Personally I really like the BSB with Mark of Tzeentch, Disc, Golden Eye and Book of Secrets combo. Give him a shield and flail for maximum versatility. He can do whatever he needs to do.

Sorcs on chariots can still be fun though. The one game I took a Sorc on chariot, it was the only unit that really performed well and kept the game close when everything else completely sucked for me (mostly due to atrocious dice rolls). Mark of Tzeentch, with some decent gear and Conjoined Homunculus can be nice for a support caster. He has decent casting abilities (able to get off Gateway once in a while, or spam stuff like Flickering Fire and/or Pandemonium) and still decent in combat. MON could be good too, better spells for a L2.

_Kalas_
29-04-2009, 11:31
chariots are a good choice in WoC list, by making them a mount for hero you get them 20pts cheaper [and we chaos players always need some extra points] and US5, which use huge difference.
Its cheaper to mount your hero on a steed or even demonic mount, but one has to take into consideration that by mounting hero on a chariot you get another unit in the army.
I'm currently using undicided caddy with warrior familiar in MoS chariot.
he performed very good, he is good in challange against infantry champions [in last 2 games he killed 2 saurus champs] and even if chariot charges front of RnF with static CR5 it can win [needs to inflict 6 wounds and none in return] and even if loses it can hold for round or two [provided your BsB is nearby, mine is :D] and hold till marauder horseman flank charge.

just my 2 cents.

theunwantedbeing
29-04-2009, 11:49
The problem with characters in chariots in a 1k army is that they eat up so much of your points. Plus they arent adding towards your core so you need even more points.
A couple of unit's of marauder horsemen is 150+ points.
A character in a chariot is easily 250points.
You now have 600points left of the army, which is 2 units of knights with command.

There's not a great deal of scope when your wanting lots of knights and a character in a chariot to go in your 1k Warriors of Chaos list.

Darwin_green
29-04-2009, 12:16
well, I do have an old BSB that I converted on foot that I'll probably never use again...

now i just need to find him another crewman that can actually fit in that chariot.

Wapniak
29-04-2009, 13:14
I'm currently using undicided caddy with warrior familiar in MoS chariot.


This is illegal. You Can't give a mark to the mount-chariot. The mount-chariot has the same mark as the character riding it (for free).

Thus I like Khornate BSB with Halberd, Shield and BSB.

EvC
29-04-2009, 13:14
A Khorne BSB in a chariot is pretty tasty= and it gives the chariot at a discount of 50 points as well, since you don't need to mark the chariot, but it still gets frenzy. It makes the chariot more versatile too, S5 impacts are not enough to beat heavy cavalry, and a roll of 1 for impact hits will lose you combat against a unit with static CR. Of course, you can still lose combat if you have an Exalted and roll a 1 for impacts, as I did against a Spearmen block, and then my BSB ran away and was run down, but as usual, that's with me rolling the dice: I'm sure others can do better.

_Kalas_
29-04-2009, 13:17
it is legal.
You can't mix marks, thats true, but undicided hero/chariot=unmarked.
That's why it's perfectly legal to put marked hero in unmarked chariot or unmarked hero in marked chariot.

Darwin_green
30-04-2009, 04:09
from the sounds of it, chariots seem to fill the role of shock troops in forces with infantry.

otherwise, they really can't keep up with the knights to support the charge. and chaos spawn are more flexible in their uses as either flankers or road blocks to enemy units(units like great-swords would probably chew them up nicely though).

I might convert a BSB riding the chariot since it would still be cool looking and in friendly games it wouldn't hurt my army in the 2000pt range and what not. Otherwise he won't be seeing too much action in the near future.

after reading another topic in this forum, I might convert some Forsaken out of my old chaos warriors since they don't seem to be that bad.

yeah, i see my self using at least 3-4 spawn in a 2000pt game.

tarrym
30-04-2009, 06:13
Although I have to agree the RAW rules in the army book are vague enough to allow the un-marked hero/marked chariot (and visa versa) combination, I suspect this is not how it was intended and it will be FAQ'd at some point.

_Kalas_
30-04-2009, 10:33
I don't think so, it fits perfectly with 7th edition fluff and new look on chaos gods and its warshippers, since we can mix marks without any restrictions now.

Jericho
01-05-2009, 00:41
:wtf: If they could mix marks without any restrictions they wouldn't have a rule that says the rider and the mount can't have different marks. I still consider Chaos Undivided a mark, so I pay the points for the chariot. You're already getting a discount on the chariot itself, which I interpret as a refund for the double-expensive mark.

There's really no way to FORCE someone to pay the extra points for the second mark, but keep in mind the restrictions of not marking the chariot.

Tzeentch, it doesn't get a ward save. Nurgle, you don't get the -1 to hit with shooting or the -1WS to attack it in combat. Slaanesh, you could argue that he isn't immune to fear/terror/panic anymore because the mount isn't. Pulling this trick with anything but Khorne still opens up a can of worms.

Sadly this was not covered in the FAQ that they released a few months back. Honestly it was a terrible FAQ that totally re-wrote rules that were perfectly clear before, and introduced some crazy garbage that wasn't necessary. I think we were better off without it :p

Kalec
01-05-2009, 04:06
The discount on the chariot is because the character is replacing a chaos warrior with a halberd. Nothing to do with the idiocy of having to buy mark of khorne twice.

Darwin_green
01-05-2009, 04:41
well, i'm doing mono-slanesh. so can we get of the topics of marks?

Darwin_green
01-05-2009, 12:27
it would make sense if you buy the mark of khorne and ride an unmarked chariot only the lord woudl benefit from the mark. the chariot would still have to charge everything, but wouldn't get the frenzy bonus(the crew shouldn't anyways).

EvC
01-05-2009, 13:32
The whole chariot does indeed get the benefit of frenzy if you have Khornate character riding unmarked chariot. Of course, as soon as the rider dies, the chariot loses its frenzy.

djkest
01-05-2009, 14:22
chaos lords are utter trash.


Yes, who would want the only character in the book who has an impressive statline, access to all sorts of mounts, LD 9, and 100 points of magic item allowance. A character that could slay dragons, treeman, and nasty characters. No one wants that.

So a Khorne BSB in a chariot would have 5 attacks @ S5, 3 @ S5 from the crew, and 4 @ STR 4 from the horses, plus D6+1 S5 impact hits, right? That's pretty nasty. And that is with no items on the BSB.

EvC
01-05-2009, 18:27
Yeah, but some people can't see past their Gateway as a way to play Warriors. Just nod and smile :)

Avian
01-05-2009, 21:01
it would make sense if you buy the mark of khorne and ride an unmarked chariot only the lord woudl benefit from the mark. the chariot would still have to charge everything, but wouldn't get the frenzy bonus(the crew shouldn't anyways).
My Savage Orc Big Boss makes himself and his chariot (one Orc and two Boars) Frenzied, costs 5 pts more than a regular Orc Big Boss and has the exact same options. No one has complained yet.

It would be a bit absurd to have a chariot rider pay twice for the same ability.

Havock
02-05-2009, 00:56
Yes, who would want the only character in the book who has an impressive statline, access to all sorts of mounts, LD 9, and 100 points of magic item allowance. A character that could slay dragons, treeman, and nasty characters. No one wants that.

It's not that he's bad, it's just that he's too damn expensive for a simple beatstick that has to be mounted on a dragon to be used to its full effectiveness.


So a Khorne BSB in a chariot would have 5 attacks @ S5, 3 @ S5 from the crew, and 4 @ STR 4 from the horses, plus D6+1 S5 impact hits, right? That's pretty nasty. And that is with no items on the BSB.

Yup, but that's an exalted.
You don't even need a MOK to break units through the front rank. You can even use the thing IN a magic heavy army by giving him the book. All 3 lores have a useful spell, though death and fire (soul stealer/flaming sword) are probably the funniest possibilties, as well as having cheap magic missiles should you roll a crappy spell.

Darwin_green
05-05-2009, 19:28
so chariots are mostly for supporting well balanced or infantry heavy forces, right?

Slam
05-05-2009, 19:58
I use my scroll caddy sorcerer with chariot sometimes.
Sadly a scroll caddy doesnt realy have a place in an all mounted list. Put it in horsemen and you got either an expensive unit for baiting or you loose its purpose, put it in a unit of knights and it cant turn that good and you have to challange with a character that isn't good in CC. So I make the best of it and mount him on the good old chariot saving 36 points (20 from cheaper chariot and 16 from not having to buy a steed for him) and getting a nice support unit.

I found that it works well with cav armies, its usefull for a second charge when your knights get stuck somewhere (undead, flagellants etc.) and/or loose too many knights.

You could also pair him up with a khorne chariot always turning the frenzied one so that it can only charge together with the unfrenzied one to avoid baiting. These two together can break most things on the charge.

Darwin_green
06-05-2009, 00:40
that sounds like it might work then.

I have a old converted-mordheim magister that I will use as a chaos sorcerer that I'll mount in the chariot.

I also have a BSB of slannesh that I'll later mount in a chariot too. But that won't be till I'm ready to go up to 2000pts.

Kalec
06-05-2009, 03:15
A khorne chariot alone can break most infantry blocks on the charge. A second chariot is superfluous.

Witchblade
06-05-2009, 04:04
Assuming T3 and 4+ armour,

impact does 4.5 x 5/6 x 5/6 = 3.1 wounds
horses do 4 x 1/2 x 2/3 x 2/3 = 0.9 wounds
warriors do 6 x 2/3 x 5/6 x 5/6 = 3.3 wounds
Total: ~7 wounds, so yes, that should break most infantry units.

A non-khorne chariot will do about 6, so I don't think khorne is that great a mark for a chariot, especially since a baited chariot often equals a dead chariot.