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dumbuket
20-12-2005, 19:03
http://p076.ezboard.com/fwarmongerboardfrm32.showMessage?topicID=18.topic

Looks somewhat overpowered to me with stat increases, lowered point-costs or both across the board... nothing's gotten weaker except, arguably, the wraithlord. They also added a 4+ invulnerable save on top of all the other bonuses you can get for falcons, but I'll let you guys read it yourselves. Then again, these guys love to win and many of them play Eldar, so what do you expect. Anyway, they're nice folks, and it's a work of considerable effort, but I'd like to see what non-warmongers think of it, especially you, Orbital. I'm not going to post in their forums, myself, because I'll probably just get shouted down and told that I don't know what I'm talking about (as I have in the past)... that, and I game there sometimes, so I don't want to make any enemies over such a touchy subject.

Personally, one thing I've noticed about some Eldar players is the fact that, on the basis of their current, "weak" codex, some will field your typical 3-falcon, 3 viper, 14 starcannon list with seer councils the size of church choirs and feel not only justified, but self-righteous about their lists. Even if there were gimmick builds in the ork lists, it would be embarrassing to resort to them just to win. Now I have no sympathy with players that having faced a novel or particularly effective unit or combination of units, whine about "cheese" rather than admit to being out-played... but Eldar players have to admit that it's possible to win with their codex, broken though it may be, without being abusive about it.

For the record, the armies I own and play are orks and tyranids... I own about 3 space marine models total.

Orbital
20-12-2005, 20:00
I resent you implying that I'm not a warmonger!

Wait...

Actually, I'm flattered that you thought of me. Thank you.

Your comment about Eldar players feeling justified for fielding unbalanced lists because their codex is "broken" scares me; as that's a lamentable misrepresentation of the codex problems. Eldar can win just fine. I know this for a fact; I can do it without having to go to those ridiculous lengths, so anyone should be able to.

Again: The problem with the Eldar codex isn't that it's underpowered. Nooo no no.

I have some issues with how the codex was laid out and certain errors that should have been proofread. It's not a huge deal, but the errors made reading it more of a chore (and I must admit I have questions about why the authors couldn't take the time to proof it just *once*).

It's also clearly not finished; there are some missing entries.

I don't have any interest in nit-picking over points values, or this might be the longest, most boring post of my life. I'll make one exception, though: The Wraithlord should be more than 75 points base. I don't know of a single person, Eldar player or no, who thinks that the Wraithlord's stats match the points cost.

My analysis of the "edited codex" is, first of all, a degree of respect to those who took the time to actually try to make the situation better. Whether it works or not is secondary to the fact that someone is trying to come up with more solutions than simple complaints, and I admire that. If nothing else, the author deserves accolades for that.

I have made some nit-picky notes about specific things below, but I think my "blanket" commentary best sums up my impression, and here it is: This edit has two major problems. First, it's geared primarily to strengthen the list, not to balance it. As I said earlier, the Eldar list is plenty muscular as it is. You don't have to arbitrarily add buffs to make it work. This codex edit focuses too closely on tweaking things that create penalties or challenges for the Eldar army, and that's not good enough for me. The power tweaks are mild, but they still close holes of vulnerability which I think are necessary to make an army balanced and worth playing.

The second problem, to me, is that the edit lacks imagination. No new units? No old units disposed of? No "trait-like" attributes that can be used to shape and refine an army? I would have liked to have seen some boldness come into the equation. What if the Avatar was had a points cost of zero, but he could only be summoned for one turn (like in Epic)? What if Exarch powers, when taken, affected the whole squad and not just the Exarch? What if there were Aspect warriors whose focus was piloting, and then you ended up with specially trained Falcon crew? What if War Walkers had the Universal Scout Rule? What if the inclusion of a Seer Council allowed the opponent to take a Culexus Assassin for free? Obviously none of these suggestions could just stand on their own without seriously play testing and tweaking the rules, but... this *is* intended to give the codex new life, right? I say fix it from the ground-up... don't just apply bandaids all over the place.

Perhaps the author's intent was not to refresh the Eldar codex, but merely to "fix" in the way one mends a sock (rather than getting a whole new sock). Even so, I would like to see more emphasis on balance, not just adding more power.

Here are some fine points which I'm neither here nor there about, but I thought were worth mentioning:

- I like the part about the Court of the Young King being available to the Eldar in general. That's neat.
- I think the Avatar could be even more awesome. He's recreated as a somewhat beefed up version of what he already was. I'd prefer to see him becoming something more mystical and awe-inspiring instead of basically a giant, inspiring ogre.
- The Autarch doesn't do much for me as described in the "new codex". I'd like to see him able to mix Aspect powers a little. What's more, if he's going to be a viable close-combat HQ choice, shouldn't he at least have the same toughness as a Farseer?
- Banshees: I, personally, wouldn't choose to keep War Shout as an Exarch power and then remove Acrobatics. I think giving Banshees a 12" charge range (after 6" of movement and up to 6" of FoF) is just iggernant.
- Scorpions: I find both Crushing Blow (how often does the Exarch *not* taking a Scorpion's Claw?) and Stealth to be mostly useless for Scorpions.
- I am very much a fan of the idea that Shining Spears should get Withdraw (aka Hit And Run). That makes tons of sense to me.
- The rule about Wave Serpents/War Walkers reducing the strength of attacks by 1 seems somewhat arbitrary and really has no functional difference than raising the armor value by 1. So why not just do that?
- As an Eldar player, I am not a fan of giving Shuriken weaponry the Rending power. Nuh uh. The reason is because it's too easy to abuse and, with an assault 2 gun, you can be pouring 20 shots into a target unit. How many of those will rend? Too many. It's not fair.

Anyhow, this is all just my two cents. I still commend anyone who is more interested in solutions than complaining, so I applaud this effort regardless.

Karhedron
20-12-2005, 20:46
Hmm, I remember a couple of guys here on Portent before The Fall came up with something similar. Basically they left the strongest units in the Eldar army alone and then powered up everything else to match. Half the weapons in the armoury gained Reanding and pretty much everyone else could negate armour saves either in combat or shooting.

Galderon and I spent a lot of time "discussing" the value of their work with them. Unfortunately they just sisn't seem to grasp the basic concept of game balance. As far as they were concerned, Eldar were the most advanced race in the Galaxy and therefore they should play better than everyone else on the table-top. :rolleyes:

They kept going on about how much work they had put into the codex but they just wouldn't see that there would have been no point in playing anyone except Eldar using their codex. Any opponent would just see an Eldar army and put there's away knowing that they had already lost.

I agree that the Eldar codex is not underpowered, they consistently do well at tournements, even against much newer armies. The problem is that some units are just too good and others are not worth taking. Plus there are some that just violate the fluff so badly it is left bleeding on the pavement. :cries:

Come on, hordes of Guardians in tissue-paper armour? No wonder the Eldar are a dying race. :p :rolleyes:

Sildani
20-12-2005, 20:49
Mm. Too powerful, not quite enough "flavor" in there for my liking.

A few threads ago I mentioned there being a newsgroup where, supposedly, one of the Codex writers had put up the "beta" version. Now, I take that with mass quantities of salt, but I did get the whole thing and edited it into a more coherent form. I'll not post it here, as it takes up around 27 pages in Word, but if you'd like a copy, I'll email it to you.

NorthernMike
21-12-2005, 00:45
There were a few things i really liked in there though. Like the s2 ap1 deathspinners. Those remind me of the rumors for what the vespid guns would be like. I really like the idea that the Avatar is now a beast on the field, and has a much better invulernable save and fleet. He needed all of those things. And the point increase seemed sufficient.

I also sorta liked the changes to the wraithlord. Though with the invulnerable save he needs to be 0-1 per army (except Ilyandan). I like the idea that models with wounds max out at T6 because then small arms could take them down. I like the idea of a gazzilion lasgun shots bringing down a wraithlord.

I also like the 18" s4 assault 2 shrucats now. I think we will see the range was all they needed. Same with the jetbikes, those look appealing now. And the hit and run of S.Spears makes them kinda like seraphem.
I think the 4+ invulnerable save combined with the Bonesong ability for vehicles a bit much though. There were a few other things but there was a lot there.

I just don't understand what use this is. Not sure GW will use anything they made.

dumbuket
21-12-2005, 04:32
I don't see the point, either. Especially from a group that professes a hatred of fluff, home-brewed rules, and fan-codices.

Gorbad Ironclaw
21-12-2005, 11:39
I think it's more of a personal project, that something done by the club actually...

Helicon_One
21-12-2005, 13:39
This is pretty bad.

- Sloppy proofreading throughout, for a start.

- The Autarch is overpriced, and his weapon options unbalanced.

- Warp Spiders drop to 4+ saves, despite the heavily armoured model.

- Rangers still look a bit overpriced.

- Dire Avengers with True Grit.... bleaaah. They're specialist gun troops, not wannabe scorpions.

- Guardian Jetbikes are still badly overpriced.

- The Wraithlord is probably fairer, but with T6, 4W and an Invulnerable save, it becomes just a cheap Avatar rather than an interesting choice in its own right.

- Reapers with shuricannons.... see my later comment on the shurricannon.

- Laser lance becomes a one-handed Executioner - very out of character for a lance weapon.

- Eldritch Storm becomes stupidly godlike. Penetrate any vehicle on a 4+? Be sensible.

- Ravage is horrific.

- The cheapest heavy weapon gains Rending, and can be taken in massive quantities, thereby making all other choices more or less redundant, unless you know you're facing a Deathwing. I'll take three maxed squads of vypers, with paired shuricannons and CTMs ..... /win.

- S6 Lasblaster is horrible.

- Deathspinner is totally out of character.

- Oh, and GW should sue, because the list completely reprints about 2/3rds of the existing army list, with added "I know, lets make more stuff disgustingly powerful".

It should come with a stamp - "Written by (Eldar power)gamers, for (Eldar power)gamers"

Tim

jigplums
21-12-2005, 17:43
yeah its sure is very crap. some interestingish ideas but overall pretty poor

Nehcrum
22-12-2005, 22:43
This is some rather minor changes which I think would balance the Eldar.

The avatar should get a standard 3+ save in addition to his 5+ invulnerable, just like Khorne Deamons, after all, he is a Deamon Lord of War, he should have some standard armor on him as well.
EDIT: Maybe make the Wailing Doom do something as well, have an optional attack that makes him him do a big LOTR Sauron Sweep getting 1 attack at everyone within melee range (base contact and 2" within someone in contact with the Avatar).

The Shuriken catapults need fixing of course, they're one of the major eldar problems right now. The boring thing would be to make them 24" Rapid Fire just like almost every other out there. The more fun thing would be to just increase their range a little bit, possibly balancing it by decreasing strength.
How does S:3 AP:5 range: 24" Assault 2 Sound? (too much like a lasblaster? No prob, we gonna change them too...).
Would make eldar defender guards fast, mobile and shooty.

The Shuriken pistol should then accordingly be changed to S:3 AP:5 Range: 12" Assault 2.
More shots than boltpistols, but lower strength.

The Shuriken Cannon should be changed only slightly, no rending stuff, too much of that, everyone hates the AssCan (all but marines at least).
Just change it from Heavy 3 to Assault 3. Makes no difference really, no infantry uses it anways.
But to fix the ShuriCannon AND the Dire Avengers both in one swift swoop, we make the ShuriCannon available to the Dire Avengers as a support weapon choice. That will make the Dire Avengers useful, 24" Range and Assault 2-3 on all their weapons with BS4 and 4+ armor makes them a solid mobile shooty choice.
Possibly even give them 3+ armor and increase their points cost a little, make them an even more solid firebase choice.

Star Cannon and Bright lance are both good, the ShuriCannon is made into a infantry choice rather than vehicle weapon, The Eldar Missile Launcher could be fixed just by reducing it's cost a little bit.

And among aspect warriors Banshees and Scorps have no problems, Dire Avengers were just fixed, leaving Dark Reapers , Warp Spiders and Swooping hawks.
Dark Reapers were based around having a skirmish line in front of it, so just decrease their cost a little to make up for them being such easy prey. Warp Spiders are pretty allright, but I think their weapons should be Assault 2 instead of Rapid Fire(possibly even decrease S to 4 and make them assault 3?), giving them the option to actually charge and use their exarchs powers.
Swooping hawks are just wrong currently, expensive shooty units with jump packs? Must be the only ones that have them....good only as a delivery system for the Exarch. I'd say change them from Las Blasters to ShuriPistols and CCW, making them an assault unit would fix them up neatly.
That makes it 3 assault aspects and 2 shooty aspects with the Warp Spider being able to do both.

Falcon, Wave serpents and Wraithlord are fine. Possibly that WL should have his cost upped by a little. The Fire Prisms need some serious attention. Maybe make it more "Dawn of War", remove it's fast status, make it's gun ordnance (S:8 AP:2?) and improve it's front armor to 13 to make up for the loss of the fast skimmer rule. Question is if it should get the option of a indirect fire or not, I'd say no, not very eldar-esque.

As an overall tho, I'm still hung up on elves from WHFB so I think they should be WS4 BS4, since Eldar/elves should be agile and skilled....In effect, increasing the Eldar Vehicles to BS4.

As for standard guardians, still regarding elves, I think they should have WS3 BS4 for guardian defenders and WS4 BS3 for Guardian storm. The Defenders will differ from the Avengers by lack of ShuriCannons (heavy weapon platform instead) and lower armor save. Especially if Avengers get boosted to 3+ save.
Defenders will of course be more viable just by fixing the ShuriCats. Storm Guardians are pretty fine really, just add a warlock with Enhance and they get WS4-5 and I5 for cheap units with cheap melta/flamer choices.

Vypers get a boost from the BS4 increase...something that might mean a cost increase across the board for eldar vehicles....
No idea on Jet Bikes tho, don't really use them. Just increase WS and BS to 4 and add a cost decrease to that?


How about some opinions on these list changes? Too much?

Helicon_One
23-12-2005, 17:57
This is some rather minor changes which I think would balance the Eldar.

The Shuriken catapults need fixing of course, they're one of the major eldar problems right now. The boring thing would be to make them 24" Rapid Fire just like almost every other out there. The more fun thing would be to just increase their range a little bit, possibly balancing it by decreasing strength.
How does S:3 AP:5 range: 24" Assault 2 Sound? (too much like a lasblaster? No prob, we gonna change them too...).

Too much like a Storm Bolter, I'd say.

I'd rather not start the same huge discussion we had last time, but my preference would be to leave the shuricat's range alone, but increase the damage they can do - it doesn't matter if they only get to shoot an enemy unit once, as long as they can make it count when they do.


The Shuriken Cannon should be changed only slightly, no rending stuff, too much of that, everyone hates the AssCan (all but marines at least).
Just change it from Heavy 3 to Assault 3. Makes no difference really, no infantry uses it anways.

Giving it 4 shots would be the easiest way to make it worth bothering with - its current profile is just a crapper budget version of a starcannon, and all the heavy weapons should have something positive in their own right, rather than being the bargain bin choice that's only taken if you can't afford the good stuff.


But to fix the ShuriCannon AND the Dire Avengers both in one swift swoop, we make the ShuriCannon available to the Dire Avengers as a support weapon choice. That will make the Dire Avengers useful, 24" Range and Assault 2-3 on all their weapons with BS4 and 4+ armor makes them a solid mobile shooty choice.
Possibly even give them 3+ armor and increase their points cost a little, make them an even more solid firebase choice.

Weapon upgrades for rank and file Aspect Warriors is an unprecedented step though (IIRC), and I'm not sure it fits. Give the Exarch a shuricannon upgrade, and that seems ok, but not for ordinary members.


Star Cannon and Bright lance are both good, the ShuriCannon is made into a infantry choice rather than vehicle weapon, The Eldar Missile Launcher could be fixed just by reducing it's cost a little bit.

EML would benefit from boosting the plasma missile statline a little - my personal preference would be for AP4 and Ignore Cover.


Dark Reapers were based around having a skirmish line in front of it, so just decrease their cost a little to make up for them being such easy prey.

They need that, although giving them back a 3+ save would help too.

Also, I like the idea of them becoming Slow And Purposeful.


Warp Spiders are pretty allright, but I think their weapons should be Assault 2 instead of Rapid Fire(possibly even decrease S to 4 and make them assault 3?), giving them the option to actually charge and use their exarchs powers.

IMO the deathspinner is too big and bulky a weapon to be Assault, and such a change would make them too all-rounder. And dropping their guns to shooty up-close infantry killing puts them in conflict with Dire Avengers (who need promoting, not having other units intrude on their role). Warp Spiders should be dedicated hit-and-fade daemon/monster hunters, like the crystalline creatures they're named after that defend the Infinity Matrix from daemonic intrusion, and they've no business leaping into combat with such targets. Give the deathspinner the Monofilament rule from the harlequin's kiss (Instant Death if you roll a 6 to wound), and they're done.


Swooping hawks are just wrong currently, expensive shooty units with jump packs? Must be the only ones that have them....good only as a delivery system for the Exarch. I'd say change them from Las Blasters to ShuriPistols and CCW, making them an assault unit would fix them up neatly.

I'd say take them in completely the other direction, take away the Exarch's combat berzerker abilities, and let them better focus on what they're meant to be good at - bouncing around flanks harrassing weak enemy units with lasfire. To be honest I'm not sure you can establish a real niche for Combat Hawks, with S3 shuripistols and CCWs they won't cut it (hah!) against anything of note, and tooling them up with anything better means treading on the toes of Banshees and Scorps.


Falcon, Wave serpents and Wraithlord are fine. Possibly that WL should have his cost upped by a little. The Fire Prisms need some serious attention. Maybe make it more "Dawn of War", remove it's fast status, make it's gun ordnance (S:8 AP:2?) and improve it's front armor to 13 to make up for the loss of the fast skimmer rule. Question is if it should get the option of a indirect fire or not, I'd say no, not very eldar-esque.

The unpredictability of place-and-scatter Ordnance isn't all that Eldar-esque either, really. Make it master-crafted and/or a bit killier against vehicles, maybe drop the points. All Eldar skimmers should be Fast though.

As for the WL, drop its initiative, or give it true power fists - its the walking dead, it shouldn't be hitting at the same time as Guardians.


As for standard guardians, still regarding elves, I think they should have WS3 BS4 for guardian defenders and WS4 BS3 for Guardian storm. The Defenders will differ from the Avengers by lack of ShuriCannons (heavy weapon platform instead) and lower armor save. Especially if Avengers get boosted to 3+ save.
Defenders will of course be more viable just by fixing the ShuriCats.

Guardians should stay at their current statline. They're semi-trained militia, and even then they outperform a full-time professional soldier such as an Imperial Guardsman. Leave stat boosts to Ulthwe.

And Avengers should definitely not go to 3+. Eldar are supposed to be fragile, you're proposing to turn their most common Aspect into mini-marines who stride through small-arms fire without a scratch.


Storm Guardians are pretty fine really, just add a warlock with Enhance and they get WS4-5 and I5 for cheap units with cheap melta/flamer choices.

Give them a third special option, that'll let them do something useful - as it is, they're trying to be Scorpions, and failing pitifully.


No idea on Jet Bikes tho, don't really use them. Just increase WS and BS to 4 and add a cost decrease to that?

Drop to around 25pts, fix the shuricat, and make the shuricannon upgrade cheaper, and they're done.

Tim

Nehcrum
23-12-2005, 19:49
Too much like a Storm Bolter, I'd say.

I'd rather not start the same huge discussion we had last time, but my preference would be to leave the shuricat's range alone, but increase the damage they can do - it doesn't matter if they only get to shoot an enemy unit once, as long as they can make it count when they do.
They will be too much like anything, no matter what you do with them if you still want to keep them within reasonable standard weapon limits.
Only way to not make them almost the same as some other weapon is to either change S and AP to strange values or to use special rules like rending.
Storm bolters are not that common that they can't use something a bit like it.



Giving it 4 shots would be the easiest way to make it worth bothering with - its current profile is just a crapper budget version of a starcannon, and all the heavy weapons should have something positive in their own right, rather than being the bargain bin choice that's only taken if you can't afford the good stuff.
And giving it 4 shots would make it shorter ranged version of a Scatter Laser but with AP instead....
And the Scatter Laser is the current budget Starcannon.



Weapon upgrades for rank and file Aspect Warriors is an unprecedented step though (IIRC), and I'm not sure it fits. Give the Exarch a shuricannon upgrade, and that seems ok, but not for ordinary members.
Might have a point there, never thought about that.




EML would benefit from boosting the plasma missile statline a little - my personal preference would be for AP4 and Ignore Cover.
Would be one way to solve it too. Never been much for EMLs at all.



They need that, although giving them back a 3+ save would help too.

Also, I like the idea of them becoming Slow And Purposeful.
And yet you complain later about Eldar being supposed to be fragile and shouldn't have 3+ save.....



IMO the deathspinner is too big and bulky a weapon to be Assault, and such a change would make them too all-rounder. And dropping their guns to shooty up-close infantry killing puts them in conflict with Dire Avengers (who need promoting, not having other units intrude on their role). Warp Spiders should be dedicated hit-and-fade daemon/monster hunters, like the crystalline creatures they're named after that defend the Infinity Matrix from daemonic intrusion, and they've no business leaping into combat with such targets. Give the deathspinner the Monofilament rule from the harlequin's kiss (Instant Death if you roll a 6 to wound), and they're done.
But Dire Avengers should be changed to medium-distance shooters, Warp Spiders being close and Reapers being long, so no conflict there. And with the Withdraw exarch power they are still a hit and run unit, even after a assault. And big and bulky does not necessarily mean difficult to fire on the move, that's more determined by what kickback the weapon has.



I'd say take them in completely the other direction, take away the Exarch's combat berzerker abilities, and let them better focus on what they're meant to be good at - bouncing around flanks harrassing weak enemy units with lasfire. To be honest I'm not sure you can establish a real niche for Combat Hawks, with S3 shuripistols and CCWs they won't cut it (hah!) against anything of note, and tooling them up with anything better means treading on the toes of Banshees and Scorps.
More CC attacks means better support for the CC monster that is their Exarch, rather than just being ablative wounds for him. Their niche in comparison to Scorps and Banshees is their speed. After all 12"+D6"+6" is a pretty good charge range...



The unpredictability of place-and-scatter Ordnance isn't all that Eldar-esque either, really. Make it master-crafted and/or a bit killier against vehicles, maybe drop the points. All Eldar skimmers should be Fast though.
Reading from the rulesbook, fast vehicles can't shoot Ordnance at all....and even if they could, you cannot move more than 6" and still fire an ordnance weapon even on non-fast vehicles. An option would be to still make it a fast vehicle and instead change the fire prism cannon to be Heavy 2-3 blast, with the rules being that it's individual targetting for every blast template or something.


As for the WL, drop its initiative, or give it true power fists - its the walking dead, it shouldn't be hitting at the same time as Guardians.
Wraithguard, there you have the true walking dead, rather than WLs that are a warmachine controlled by a dead spirit....and they still got I4.
They are ghosts, not some slow zombies.



Guardians should stay at their current statline. They're semi-trained militia, and even then they outperform a full-time professional soldier such as an Imperial Guardsman. Leave stat boosts to Ulthwe.
Guardians are ex-aspect warriors, retired from true active duty but still maintaining their skills to fight in defense of their craftworlds when needed. Not quite the same as a militia. They show a slip in their overall skill, with decreased I and "secondary" skills compared to the active aspect warriors.



And Avengers should definitely not go to 3+. Eldar are supposed to be fragile, you're proposing to turn their most common Aspect into mini-marines who stride through small-arms fire without a scratch.
Most common according to the codex, least common according to what I've seen on gaming tables, something I'm trying to correct.
Scorps already have 3+ save, and you proposed the same for Reapers. Even with 3+ save they will never be marines with S4 T4.
An option would be to increase their BS to 5. It does say in the codex "Highly skilled with their shuriken catapults".
The thing is, they need something drastic to give them some sort of beneficial difference over guardian defenders.
As things are, they got 1 more in I, WS, BS, Ld and save. But the lack of weapon platform and the shoddy ShuriCat means they never get used.



Give them a third special option, that'll let them do something useful - as it is, they're trying to be Scorpions, and failing pitifully.
For all we know, they are ex-scorps and banshees, trying to do what they were once trained to do. Their perk is the special weapons and their cheapness. Giving them a third option would probably mean an increase in cost to balance that, something that makes them lose their niche as cheap assault.



Drop to around 25pts, fix the shuricat, and make the shuricannon upgrade cheaper, and they're done.[/quote
Got nothing to add to that, as I said, no real idea about them.

[QUOTE=Helicon_One]Tim
Nehcrum ;)

Helicon_One
23-12-2005, 21:50
They will be too much like anything, no matter what you do with them if you still want to keep them within reasonable standard weapon limits.
Only way to not make them almost the same as some other weapon is to either change S and AP to strange values or to use special rules like rending.
Storm bolters are not that common that they can't use something a bit like it.

Last time this came up I said Range 12", S3, AP4, Assault 3, which is very different from any other basic weapon out there, with the option to swap for lasrifles (Range 24" S4, AP6, Assault 1). But like I said, I really don't want to revive that argument all over again, I've been through it once already HERE (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11308).



And giving it 4 shots would make it shorter ranged version of a Scatter Laser but with AP instead....
And the Scatter Laser is the current budget Starcannon.

To clarify, I'll dig out ALL the revised heavy weapon stats I'd like to see, where each weapon has its own niche without any of them dominating:

Bright lance:
36" S8 AP 1 Assault 1 Lance
EML
- krak: 48" S8 AP 3 Heavy 1
- plasma: 48" S4 AP 4 Heavy 1 Blast, Pinning, ignore cover
Scatter laser: 30" S5 AP 6 Heavy 6
Shuriken cannon: 24" S6 AP 4 Assault 4
Starcannon: 24" S6 AP 2 Heavy 3



Never been much for EMLs at all.

They're almost never seen. No-one gets past the Starcannon without thinking "ooh, that's by far the best choice, I'll have 30". And quite understandably so.




although giving [Reapers] back a 3+ save would help too.
And yet you complain later about Eldar being supposed to be fragile and shouldn't have 3+ save.....

Not on their most common Aspect, available as a troops choice, no. Reapers are expensive, Heavy Support, and come in small unit sizes. They're not the core of the army (Biel-Tan doesn't count, I'm talking about vanilla).

I'm not complaining about WG or Shining Spears having 3+, for the same reason.


But Dire Avengers should be changed to medium-distance shooters, Warp Spiders being close and Reapers being long, so no conflict there.

Avengers will change according to what happens with the Shuricat, whether that's better range or more power. The problem here is that even if the shuricat goes to 18", the jump generators on the Spiders give them an effective 18" as well, so they're outperforming Avengers in the same role.


More CC attacks [for Hawks] means better support for the CC monster that is their Exarch, rather than just being ablative wounds for him. Their niche in comparison to Scorps and Banshees is their speed. After all 12"+D6"+6" is a pretty good charge range...

They're still going to catch bayonets for the Exarch, 1 extra S3 attack each won't change that. The current problem is that the Combat Monster Exarch is in total conflict with the squad role, and its completely back to front to re-organise the whole squad to fit around one possible wargear option for the Exarch (who already has ranged shooty options available to him, and indeed has to be converted to fit the Combat Monster configuration).


Wraithguard, there you have the true walking dead, rather than WLs that are a warmachine controlled by a dead spirit....and they still got I4.
They are ghosts, not some slow zombies.

Both WG and WLs are walking dead, just implanted in Wraithbone bodies, its just that WL bodies are bigger. Neither should have I4.


Guardians are ex-aspect warriors, retired from true active duty but still maintaining their skills to fight in defense of their craftworlds when needed. Not quite the same as a militia.

If they're no longer on the Warrior Path, their fighting skills will have significantly deteriorated. They're still civilian reservists.

Besides, bosting Defenders to BS4 is another good reason not to bother with Avengers, who need all the promotion they can get. One of the chief complaints about the Eldar list is the suicide waves of Defenders, largely because people are trying to use them in roles that Avengers should be carrying out.


[Avengers] Most common according to the codex, least common according to what I've seen on gaming tables, something I'm trying to correct.

Me too.


An option would be to increase their BS to 5. It does say in the codex "Highly skilled with their shuriken catapults". The thing is, they need something drastic to give them some sort of beneficial difference over guardian defenders. As things are, they got 1 more in I, WS, BS, Ld and save. But the lack of weapon platform and the shoddy ShuriCat means they never get used.

BS5 on a troop choice is pushing it, and besides it ends the more-or-less uniform Aspect Warrior profile. I've previously suggested giving them a special rule that lets them re-roll misses when within half range ("Strafe").



For all we know, they are ex-scorps and banshees, trying to do what they were once trained to do. Their perk is the special weapons and their cheapness. Giving them a third option would probably mean an increase in cost to balance that, something that makes them lose their niche as cheap assault.

I don't see anything wrong with a third option at the current costs, it wouldn't exactly wreck things, but it would help them establish a niche other than 'crap versions of Scorpions'. In the same way that a weapon platform gives defenders a niche other than 'crap versions of Avengers' (sadly an overused one, leading to the starcannon plague).

Tim

dumbuket
24-12-2005, 00:31
Another thing to keep in mind is that any unit with a warlock can get +1 in +1 WS. I think it's disgusting that wraithguard can be WS5 In5 and hit at the same time or faster than a hormagaunt. They should be S5 In 1 with powerweapons. They're already T5 with a 3+ save, for goodness sake! They're more or less immune to small arms, they probably deserve an invulnerable save (5+ ought to do it) but they shouldn't be striking before hormagaunts or spacemarines.

Kahadras
26-12-2005, 20:21
Oh God I just finnished reading it. Who do they think is going to play against this? They have not dealt with any of the real problems of the codex like swooping hawks sustained assault rules and the holofield on vehicles. All they have seemed to do is vastly improved the list to the point where it will be unbeatable by most other armies. Eldrich storm is retardedly good (penetrate tanks on a 4+) bone song is equaly poor (ignore first hit on a tank, first wound on wraith construct) Ravage is broken to (everybody in the squad gets rending) Why do they even bother? I know a lot of work might have gone into this (but seemingly no play testing) but it is wasted due to the fact that the final product is stupidly overpowered.

Kahadras

alons
20-01-2006, 13:38
Hi all

ive been listening to what youve been saying and imo the best way to fix the problems would be to maybe drop (Horror!):eek: one of the aspects as it looking too crowded

with the scorpions and banshees doing the fighting
reapers and guardians doing the ranged pounding and fire dragons for short range anti armour (one of the least used units imo) who would really use both the warp spiders and swooping hawks?

It makes better sense just to give the hawks a more powerful gun and tone down the exarch

They are meant to harass enemy flanks, not wipe out squads of men...:rolleyes:

The warp spiders do not work for me they either cant kill anything about a guardsman , fail to make an impact in assault or simply seem incapable of using a set role

And Avengers should be given a heavy wep platform that has a suspender option (can move and shoot heavy weapons but with reduced range) and let the exarch trade in his ccw and pistol for a shurkcannon. They have 4+ save, better than guardians but worse that scorpians, who are heavy assault troops. this suit their position of being troops who are the tough vets.

as for the weapons, make EML same as imperial/marine with higher str/ap with plasma (plasma is a highly unstable material capable of melting a demon....)
Give shuriken catapults 18" range str 4 ap 6 and rapid fire (20 man units levels guns at marines who came within 18", they end up with sushi)
btw, i have tried this out and it seems to work well vs tougher armys such as marines and is not over powerd vs light ones like orcs, bugs or guard.
The cannon should be a big version of the catapult, 36" Str 6 ap 4 heavy 4
The lance is fine
The Star cannon is fine (eat plasma death marines!)
I never use the scatter laser so i have no idea about it

If you dont like this impute just say so.. so my CIA buddys can find you.......:evilgrin:

Helicon_One
20-01-2006, 16:17
Hi all

Way to resurrect a dead thread.... it was an interesting one though, so I don't mind.


ive been listening to what youve been saying and imo the best way to fix the problems would be to maybe drop (Horror!):eek: one of the aspects as it looking too crowded

with the scorpions and banshees doing the fighting
reapers and guardians doing the ranged pounding and fire dragons for short range anti armour (one of the least used units imo) who would really use both the warp spiders and swooping hawks?

Spiders should be monster hunters - they're named after the creatures that patrol the craftworld's infinity matrix looking for daemonic intrusion. Hawks are intended to bounce around being super-mobile and harass light infantry. Tweak them both to the point where they can actually carry out those roles, and there's no problem including them.


It makes better sense just to give the hawks a more powerful gun and tone down the exarch

They are meant to harass enemy flanks, not wipe out squads of men.

Yes, although that's a problem with the Exarch and Sustained Assault, not with the squad as a whole.


The warp spiders do not work for me they either cant kill anything about a guardsman , fail to make an impact in assault or simply seem incapable of using a set role

The solution is to make the Deathspinner into a ranged Harlequin's Kiss, as it is in the fluff. 12", Strength X, AP-, Rapid Fire. [Strength X: always wounds on 2s, a 6 to wound causes instant death if save is failed, may not be used against vehicles].


And Avengers should be given a heavy wep platform that has a suspender option (can move and shoot heavy weapons but with reduced range) and let the exarch trade in his ccw and pistol for a shurkcannon. They have 4+ save, better than guardians but worse that scorpians, who are heavy assault troops. this suit their position of being troops who are the tough vets.

No grav platforms for Aspects, please. Give the Exarch a shurricannon option though.


as for the weapons, make EML same as imperial/marine with higher str/ap with plasma (plasma is a highly unstable material capable of melting a demon....)
Give shuriken catapults 18" range str 4 ap 6 and rapid fire (20 man units levels guns at marines who came within 18", they end up with sushi)

20 strong Guardian horde units are part of the problem. They're not Orks!


The cannon should be a big version of the catapult, 36" Str 6 ap 4 heavy 4
The lance is fine
The Star cannon is fine (eat plasma death marines!)
I never use the scatter laser so i have no idea about it


My thoughts on the weapon stats are further back on this thread, no point repeating them.

Tim

Sybaronde
21-01-2006, 22:53
20 strong Guardian horde units are part of the problem. They're not Orks!


Tactical Withdrawal for all Guardian squads would fix that, I think. Furthermore, it isn't unlikely that the Eldar have access to high numbers of citizens for militia - despite their cryptic 'dying race' tag-line.

Edit: The Eldritch storm is indeed too powerful. If you insist on it having the capacity to deal damage to vehicles, let it be that rolls of 4 and 5 deal glancing hits, while rolls of 6 do penetrating hits - which would be similar to that of EMP grenades to the Tau, but with some advantages.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
22-01-2006, 13:06
Well, I don't care how much time they put into that list. It seems pretty clear that it was ultimately wasted!

Like many other posters, it strikes me that all they have done is boost up the 'useless' (I would hotly contest that phrase!) units, and leave 'teh win' units alone.

Waaaaank quite frankly!