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View Full Version : Best rare choice for dark elves 2000 points



zeekill
29-04-2009, 17:34
For people that have gone up against Dark Elves, or play Dark Elves, which combination of rare choices will give me the best result, while not being TOO cheesy or expensive point-wise in a 2000 point game?

Bac5665
29-04-2009, 17:38
Well, 2 Hydras are far and away the best choice.

BUT, people will hit you for it. A more balanced choice would be 1 Hydra and a RBT.

PeG
29-04-2009, 18:05
one of each will make more friends than any of the other options and also gives a more balanced army. Many armies will hate two hydras while some (empire with lots of greater cannons and dwarfs) will be happy that you didnt take anyting that can actually hurt their guns. Which will be more efficient depends on which army you are playing.

zeekill
29-04-2009, 18:08
Yea I know, i just put down all the combinations, I want a good balance of strength and fairness

LKHERO
29-04-2009, 18:22
1 Hydra and 2x RBT for overall effectiveness and fairness.

dwarfhold13
29-04-2009, 18:57
1 Hydra and 2x RBT for overall effectiveness and fairness.

thats my vote too.. 2 hydras can be bad but fold easily if beaten in combat and 4 bolt throwers can be fun too.. albeit expensive, 24 strength 4 shots plus a unit or two of crossbow elves can be a lot to handle.. not to mention you take down giants and other large creatures in one turn :)
Jon

zeekill
29-04-2009, 19:00
thats my vote too.. 2 hydras can be bad but fold easily if beaten in combat and 4 bolt throwers can be fun too.. albeit expensive, 24 strength 4 shots plus a unit or two of crossbow elves can be a lot to handle.. not to mention you take down giants and other large creatures in one turn :)
Jon

Thanks, Im thinking of 4 RCB or 1 WH + 2 RCB right now. I'm also about to post another poll about Lord/Hero choices in a 2000 point game because i just cant decide. If anyone that sees this would vote there too it would be appreciated

Emeraldw
29-04-2009, 20:19
From a pure effectiveness standpoint, I think that 2 war hydras are much better than RBT's.

LKHERO
29-04-2009, 20:35
From a pure effectiveness standpoint, I think that 2 war hydras are much better than RBT's.

People will hate you for it.

The poster specifically said "so people won't hate me".

Therefore, the best balance of cheese and battle effeciency is ONE War Hydra and 2x RBT.

W0lf
29-04-2009, 20:47
I voted the obvious hydra and was shocked at the poll results.

Till i read the bit about being cheesy ^^.

Dual Hydra = cheese
1 of each rare = more balanced approach

ICEMANQ
29-04-2009, 21:18
Four bolt throwers will get yout comp hit and also are easier to take down. When you have four the places for them are limited (never put more than 1 on a hill, either) and it is much easier for them to be LOS blocked. But the upside is giants dissapear in a single turn..

W0lf
29-04-2009, 21:19
4 BT isnt fun to face. I find 3 is a nice way to run.

ICEMANQ
29-04-2009, 21:24
Three means you don't have a hydra!

Why play Dark Elves without a hydra :p But seriously, you need a hydra. Its underpointed gold. 3 bolt throwers is a waste of a rare choice - either go full on bolt throwers or just take 2.

BattleofLund
30-04-2009, 14:15
Reaper Bolt Throwers are dangerous weapons. However, their greatest strength is the deterrence factor; 'if I go there with my vulnerable x unit, the Bolt Thrower will get me'. As such, the benefit you get out of paying for RBT #2 is significantly less than the one from #1.

A Hydra is too good to pass up. Having double Hydras is good, but you lose out on some tactical diversity when eschewing RBTs altogether.

Therefore, I voted for one War Hydra and one Reaper Bolt Thrower.

Lordmonkey
30-04-2009, 14:19
2 RBT's and a Hydra for flexibility. RBT's are always handy whatever your facing, and are a good way to deal with enemy monsters. Hydras toughen up your battleline. Since the metagame is now crammed with stegadons, you are going to need them.

DarkTerror
30-04-2009, 14:29
I voted for a Hydra and 2 BTs. One BT just can't kill much. You need 2 to make your opponent worry about being out in the open.

Von Wibble
30-04-2009, 17:51
2 hydras annoy people. RBTs are very poor for the points.

I vote 1 hydra. Spend the other 200 pts on 2 extra harpy units and a dark rider block. This takes out war machines and easily fills the roles of the RBT, and can also have many other roles.

zeekill
30-04-2009, 19:25
RBTs are very poor for the points.

Not true at all. RBT can kill things well, especially single models or monsters. Also, people are scared of it and won't want to get in range, which will disrupt their flanking attempts and other things. Thirdly, wonderful against fast calvary that tries to stay to the side and then flank, because fast calvary are not amazingly resiliant

Desert Rain
01-05-2009, 09:01
If I played the dark elves I would go for a hydra (people will hate you if you take 2) and a couple of boltthrowers.

dwarfhold13
01-05-2009, 20:02
i've just said it before.. people hate the hydra because its underpriced.. but my argument with them is that, i've seen them flop bad..
if you lose it, you lose a hard hitter, but you are only out 175 pts.
if you don't lose it, it has been annoying, but you also only keep 175 pts.. i've lost it in games more times than its stayed around to be the game breaker for me..
it did manage on holding the entire core of a vampire counts army at bay, but in two games later, whooped up on by a simple thane in a dwarf list because i was at the mercy of the dice..
you will get shunned by taking too many of either..
what you should do is take a bunch of shades hiding assassins!!!!
with a very sneaky tee hee i'm out,
Jon

Von Wibble
01-05-2009, 22:07
Not true at all. RBT can kill things well, especially single models or monsters. Also, people are scared of it and won't want to get in range, which will disrupt their flanking attempts and other things. Thirdly, wonderful against fast calvary that tries to stay to the side and then flank, because fast calvary are not amazingly resiliant

Scared of 3 S4 hits from a RBT, compared to a 18" charge at S4 with hatred? 5 Dark riders are far more effective in the last 2 roles you have just described than a RBT, and can excel in other roles too. As can harpies.

The only thing the RBT has going for it is the single S6 shots. 100pts is too much to pay for that, as I have repeatedly said in the past (60 is fairer) - an assassin with rending stars and manbane provides on average more damage than 2 rbts albeit at shorter range, and can harass in combat too. And a single unit of cheap flyers won't take him out in turn 2 for an easy 100vps either.

dwarfhold - I haven't had my hydra survive a game yet as mine also fails at the whim of the dice. But it does a wonderful njob of distracting my opponents attention :D

LKHERO
01-05-2009, 22:18
An RBT shoots 6 shots at BS4 S4 -2 armor and do not suffer from multishot.

They can also shoot a normal bolt thrower S6 shot.

Von Wibble
01-05-2009, 22:28
An RBT shoots 6 shots at BS4 S4 -2 armor and do not suffer from multishot.

They can also shoot a normal bolt thrower S6 shot.

I know. They also tend to be in long range in turn 1 (hence -1 to hit) and dead in turn 2 from cheap flyers. But since the S4 shooting is far less efficient for the role described by zeekill than the alternative of a unit of dark riders (or harpies, or assassin), I assumed the single shot was the reason for taking the RBT. And since the single shot is vastly overpriced and less efficient than the manbane assassin, you have my reasons for never using them.

Draconian77
01-05-2009, 23:07
I agree with Wibble on this one.

Would you rather have 2 Dwarf Bolt Throwers or a Reaper? Is that even a competition?

6xS4 shots is nice but only truly effective against T3 targets...at which point Crossbowmen are a safer bet.

100pts for a single S6 hit is overpriced against anything other than Large Targets.

xragg
02-05-2009, 21:40
Having the option to shoot down that flying mount that is probally the only thing really threatening to out-manuvure you is huge. I would almost always choose a balanced threat of 2rbt/hydra over 2hydras.

BattleofLund
02-05-2009, 21:46
Having the option to shoot down that flying mount

Or Steam Tank.

zeekill
03-05-2009, 19:22
i've just said it before.. people hate the hydra because its underpriced.. but my argument with them is that, i've seen them flop bad..
if you lose it, you lose a hard hitter, but you are only out 175 pts.
if you don't lose it, it has been annoying, but you also only keep 175 pts.. i've lost it in games more times than its stayed around to be the game breaker for me..
it did manage on holding the entire core of a vampire counts army at bay, but in two games later, whooped up on by a simple thane in a dwarf list because i was at the mercy of the dice..
you will get shunned by taking too many of either..
what you should do is take a bunch of shades hiding assassins!!!!
with a very sneaky tee hee i'm out,
Jon

As much as i would love the Shades/Assassin combo, i just dont have the points because im going mega magic heavy on my list.

zeekill
03-05-2009, 19:35
I know. They also tend to be in long range in turn 1 (hence -1 to hit) and dead in turn 2 from cheap flyers. But since the S4 shooting is far less efficient for the role described by zeekill than the alternative of a unit of dark riders (or harpies, or assassin), I assumed the single shot was the reason for taking the RBT. And since the single shot is vastly overpriced and less efficient than the manbane assassin, you have my reasons for never using them.

If its at long range (over 24") on turn 1, and flyers move 20", how can it be dead on turn 2 exactly? Either way i get 2-3 turns of shooting at 6 shot BS 4 S 4 (With no armor save for most fliers), so...

Turn 1: 4+, then 4+ or 3+ with no armor save, probably 2-3 die
Turn 2: 3+, then 4+ or 3 + with no armor save, probably another 3-4 die.
Turn 3: 3+, then 4+ or 3 + with no armor save, probably another 3-4 die.

So thats 5-7 dead if within 2 turns, 8-10 dead if 3 turns. Now with 2 bolt throwers thats doubled, resulting in dead fliers by at most turn 2.

Then they have 4-5 turns to fire down on your opponent.

Im probably not going to put them in, but i wanted to show that they dont suck, theyre just not cheap.

Crube
03-05-2009, 20:03
Having been on the receiving end of the 2 Hydra build AND the 4 RBT list, my experience is that the 2 Hydra is more nasty.

As a Wood Elf Player, the RBTs were dealt with in short order, however the 2 Hydras... even with 2 treemen they were a pain.

2 Hydras get my vote

Da GoBBo
04-05-2009, 01:05
'if I go there with my vulnerable x unit, the Bolt Thrower will get me'. As such, the benefit you get out of paying for RBT #2 is significantly less than the one from #1.

I don't really agree. I can try to dodge one volley and hope for the best, two gets a lot more ugly though, let alone 4. Also, if ye take two ye can cover two flanks insteada one.


Scared of 3 S4 hits from a RBT, compared to a 18" charge at S4 with hatred? 5 Dark riders are far more effective in the last 2 roles you have just described than a RBT, and can excel in other roles too. As can harpies.

they are a lot more expensive too, get clubbered (with static CR) afterwards (which is sort of a bummer :D), and do not get to charge every turn. Your comparison doesn't really agree with reality.

BattleofLund
04-05-2009, 02:30
And a single unit of cheap flyers won't take him out in turn 2 for an easy 100vps either.

Don't you anything in your army book good for taking out cheap flyers...? ;)



I don't really agree. I can try to dodge one volley and hope for the best, two gets a lot more ugly though, let alone 4. Also, if ye take two ye can cover two flanks insteada one.

[Dark Riders] are a lot more expensive too, get clubbered (with static CR) afterwards (which is sort of a bummer :D), and do not get to charge every turn. Your comparison doesn't really agree with reality.

One common build of Dark Riders is five plus musician upgrade, another five with rxb plus musician upgrade. The first is less expensive than a RBT, the second I wouldn't call 'a lot' more expensive.

As for dodging and hoping, yes two or four RBTs are more sure to cripple/destroy my example of 'vulnerable x unit' than one RBT. Yet what are you doing dedicating all your RBTs to killing a 'vulnerable x unit'?

My point was, 'vulnerable x units' are wary of one RBT and will be have a (psychological) shackle put on their movements. If the RBT battlefield coverage is 100%, then the risk is equal whatever the VXU does and your control of your opponent's mind is gone. If you make the threat too obvious, it becomes manageable. 'Black Knight Death Star with Vampire Lord and Wight BSB? Thanks, I will avoid direct confrontation with this unit that obviously outmatches any Close Combat unit(s) in my army'. 'Four RBT plus a hundred Repeater Crossbow-shots per turn? Then I will hide my entire army behind this wood; enjoy your draw you horrible person, now go away'.

The trick is to sucker the enemy.

Da GoBBo
04-05-2009, 09:35
Dark elves are cheaper than wood elves ... aaargh! Must ... remember!

I'm slowly starting to grasp the idea of fragile units. Yes, even one RBT would really hurt units like that. Having said that I think you'll have a hard time covering the whole battlefield (or two spotsof the battlefield simultaneously) with one RBT so I think a second one will be a great addition any time of the day. Is it nice? That wasn't really the issue of the point you tried to make in your earlier post.

BattleofLund
04-05-2009, 23:50
Is it nice? That wasn't really the issue of the point you tried to make in your earlier post.

Is what nice?

In my earlier post I said RBT were good for 'deterrence', ie making the enemy hesitate to take the action he wants because it will hurt to do so. Then I spouted some drivel about putting psychological shackles on the enemy's movement; now I'll pretend that those are the same thing! And well, I think they are actually.

Lordmonkey
05-05-2009, 06:31
Just played a 2250 game with 1 Hydra + 2 RBT's vs Greenskins. The RBT's did well, skewering a boar chariot and a unit of spider riders. The Hydra died in a King-Kong vs Godzilla fight with a Giant (after heading in with only 3 wounds left!)

The ability of the RBT's to address problems almost anywhere on the battlefield should not be overlooked, especially when one can be combined with a sorceress with the guiding eye for a reroll on that essential shot/volley.

I would still take the Hydra though - it's able to withstand plenty of flak, which is what it should be doing, and if it charges it will leave nice hole in the enemy before it gets taken down.

Eumerin
05-05-2009, 07:37
While I've found 2 hydras to be very useful against some armies, from a more general "all comers" standpoint I think that hydra + 2 RBT is the better choice. There are times that you just need to "reach out and touch someone", and the RBT gives you a certain amount of flexibility that the hydra doesn't.

Hydras are pretty nasty. But there are still certain things that will eat them.

Da GoBBo
05-05-2009, 09:15
Is what nice? I had to read back some posts to answer this one because I didn't get it either and it sounded rather rude (did I really write that? :)) I found out though. What I meant to ask was "is it nice to have two RBT". Sorry for the confusion.
You said earlier that a certain amount of shooting would just make you hide and live to fight another day. That made me think you don't consider lots of shooting to be nice and you sort of rubuked me on that account, so later on I wanted to asked what you thought about 2 RBT from a "nice list" point of view. Since we wern't talking about nice lists though, but the worth added by a second RBT...


As such, the benefit you get out of paying for RBT #2 is significantly less than the one from #1.

... so I tried to point out why I think a second RBT is well worth having. It's easy enough to deploy, allows you not only to put preasure on one vulnerable unit, but two on different locations or even one bigger unit somewhere else. More diversity, which is good and makes you less predictable. You talked about sucking the enemy and not bein to abvious and manageable, but putting abvious pressure on someone makes the other person predictable as well, and therefore manageable.

Urgat
05-05-2009, 09:27
When I get around to finish my army, I plan on going for one hydra and two RBT, too (well I already have the two RBT anyway).


i've just said it before.. people hate the hydra because its underpriced.. but my argument with them is that, i've seen them flop bad..

Yeah well I've seen chaos knights, blood thirsters and many other mean things flop bad, as you say. That doesn't make much of an argument, it's got nothing to do with the monster itself.

BattleofLund
05-05-2009, 10:07
I had to read back some posts to answer this one because I didn't get it either and it sounded rather rude (did I really write that? :)) I found out though. What I meant to ask was "is it nice to have two RBT". Sorry for the confusion.
You said earlier that a certain amount of shooting would just make you hide and live to fight another day. That made me think you don't consider lots of shooting to be nice and you sort of rubuked me on that account, so later on I wanted to asked what you thought about 2 RBT from a "nice list" point of view. Since we wern't talking about nice lists though, but the worth added by a second RBT...



... so I tried to point out why I think a second RBT is well worth having. It's easy enough to deploy, allows you not only to put preasure on one vulnerable unit, but two on different locations or even one bigger unit somewhere else. More diversity, which is good and makes you less predictable. You talked about sucking the enemy and not bein to abvious and manageable, but putting abvious pressure on someone makes the other person predictable as well, and therefore manageable.

No, no, I don't think two RBTs is 'un-nice' or rude (but four may be a little boring), I quite like it myself actually. No rebuking, the 'hide for draw' was just an example - I couldn't easily do that myself by the way, my armies are always too big.

But I do think there is some merit in trying to limit the number of RBTs you have, especially since the DE book is full of other good stuff. After all, the Reaper is kind of expensive; you get a Rider unit or (basic) character for what it costs, or two thirds of a full Spearman block.

Re: pressure.
Case a)
'If I send my Pistoliers round the forest I will get shot by the RBT, losing a few and possibly Panicking - not so if I go to the left, even if that is slightly less advantageous for my overall plan.'

Case b)
'Whether I send my Pistoliers round the forest or go left, there will be a RBT waiting. They will lose a few, and possibly Panic. Then I might as well go around the forest, because that is slightly more advantageous for my overall plan.'

Of course the Empire player in this example could go for Case c) or Case d), but I think a) versus b) is valid illumination for my thoughtery anyway.

Norngahl
05-05-2009, 13:12
Personally I would go with 2 bolts and a hydra.

Played 2 Hydras a few times and realized that double hydra is only great when you know your enemy has less shooting and magic and no monsters.

Hydra is quite nice and I always take one, just because they are great and dirty cheap. But none the less, they often run from blocks because of combat resolution (only LD8, loose by 1-2 and your hydra is nearly gone), are prime target of any shooters (since you get +1 to hit), nerved by magic (from movement spells to pure damage spells), and if the hydra stucks itīs not that good anymore because it looses hatred. As well most players catch the handlers and than the LD is even worse. Not to mention things like Bloodthirster, Flamers or vampires with balefire spike etc. rip it apart in one round.
Itīs a great deal of points, but I see it more as an supporting element instead of a standalone unit. In fact itīs perfect to flame blocks, eat light targets, for combat supporting and as a quick run around unit (moves fast through terrain).

Bolt Throwers: I need them for taking down monsters, light cavallery or something else that challenges my supreme movement ability, for lone character hunting/ to denie movement of units, to force LD tests on units (empire shooting units that flee often run from the table because of their position, as well nearly every other archers). If the enemy fields none of this, just thin out the main battleline.
You need to think twice, sure bolt throwers are expensive, but they offer the dark elves very nice options because they are very tactical!

I think that dark elves are very versatile. Many units fit in different roles. For example- Dark Riders (Movement, Shooting, Screening, flanking), Hydra (Shooting, Movement, Screening, Combat, Flanking), Harpies (Movement, Screening, Marchblocking), Shades (Movement, Shooting, Marchblocking, Combat support, Flanking). These units are my tactical units that always perform well against any opponent.
My combat only units are +6 SCR Warriors with Dreadlord (AoD, PoK, SR), CoK (Ring, AP Banner), BG (ASF, CD).
My shooting only units are 10 Xbows and 2 Bolts. Together with shades and DR they perform very well. Since Dark Elves got hatred I think CC are the best way to play them, but sometimes a bit of shooting is working wonders. In fact, 2 boltthrowers combined with the many redirecting units DE got can annoy people quick, because if you try to catch something while constantly beeing under fire is quite depressing.

In fact I mostly use boltthrowers to eat light cav or similar units or large targets, so I can force the opponent to fight on my conditions. To change the battleplan and react whereever I need to is quite more worth than a hydra affecting only her local area. But 4 Bolts are not worth the money, 2 give you the control you need, 4 for damage fails their use.

So take both. Best bet for your bucks.

PARTYCHICORITA
05-05-2009, 13:55
I voted 2RBT and 1 War Hydra.

4 RBT or double Hydra can be powerful to but depends greatly on what the rest of your army is doing.