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Devil
30-04-2009, 16:55
At my local store they don't allow Thorek Ironbrow. Is there any single lord/hero that any of you believe to be imbalanced? Why? Because I personally think its all balanced.

beaumontbrawler
30-04-2009, 16:59
At my local store they don't allow Thorek Ironbrow. Is there any single lord/hero that any of you beleieve to be imbalanced? Why? Because I personally think its all balanced.

Morghur . . . with the 50 spawn list.

Havock
30-04-2009, 17:22
The Masque.

Desert Rain
30-04-2009, 17:27
Daemons of Chaos has insane special character, just look at Kairos...

Von Wibble
30-04-2009, 18:08
A bloodthirster with obsidian armour. I don't mind them if they leave this item at home, but with it, in the hands of a skilled player, they are unstoppable.

moose
30-04-2009, 18:22
The Masque,

Daemonic, Mv10, S4AP, 4attacks, 3+ward, Ld8
PLUS
Her 'shooting' which is D3 less movement or leadership, which can't be stopped.

ROCKING for 90pts.


Moose.

swarmofseals
30-04-2009, 19:27
Thorek for sure is super imba, as is Skulltaker when put on a juggernaut.

Arguments can be made for Masque, Kairos, and the Blue Scribes (particularly when Kairos and Blue Scribes are taken together).

There are some other special characters that draw complaints from other books, but as far as I know those are the main offenders.

Malorian
30-04-2009, 19:29
Thorek is the worst. The Masque can be bad but Thorek pushes the limit of silly.

Bodysnatcher
30-04-2009, 19:44
Thorek is ok in a dwarf list that's otherwise balanced. Stick him in a gunline list and he becomes silly good.

The Daemon characters likewise - The Masque in a fast or Ld bomb army etc.

Malorian
30-04-2009, 19:47
Thorek is ok in a dwarf list that's otherwise balanced. Stick him in a gunline list and he becomes silly good.

The Daemon characters likewise - The Masque in a fast or Ld bomb army etc.

No... not really. Even in a balanced list Thorek is insane. The ability to get the ancient power off pretty much every time for not much more than a regular anvil is just nuts.

Kal Taron
30-04-2009, 20:00
There are some things to look for in a character that can make him imbalanced.
1) and probably most importantly are army- or table-wide effects. Such as changing your army composition or effects without LoS and range.
2) would be being next to unkillable. This is often achieved through point 1 because such a model can have great effect without being in danger at all.
3) high offensive output. Only some mages are really bad there. Other models can normally kill only 2-3 units a game if you take care and that often doesn't even get close to making up their points.
4) comparably cheap and no additional character slots

Morghur is bad because he fulfills point 1 and 2 (and 4 IIRC). He has a table wide effect against woods and miscasts and he can change units into chaos spawns. (This was really bad when you could choose to not use his Leadership...) And with his stupid special rules it's extremely hard to kill him.

Thorek fulfills 1,2 and to a certain extend 3.

The DoC characters are all pretty rediculous. No comment.

Duke Georgal
30-04-2009, 20:35
Thorek has frustrated me so many times.

Any power that strong that is so unstoppable is entirely wrong.

I rarely have seen other special characters.

Dairym
30-04-2009, 21:09
Thorek can fail spectacularly but if he works, and you get an ancient power every turn, the dwarves should be nearly unbeatable. Part of the problem is with the anvil itself though.

They don't always get balance right and special characters are where they tend to slip, especially given the amount they're writing for each book at the moment.

Teclis? (although he has weaknesses and is truly random).
Shadowblade has always been a bit daft.

If you're disallowing them, I'd ban them all.

Having said that, there are normally one or two item combinations near as suspicious in any book (pendant of Khaleth and regen armour, say?).

W0lf
30-04-2009, 21:45
Thorek is the only special character i think id turn a game down to at 2K.

That said all the hero lvl daemons SC are like 100 pts under-priced.

LKHERO
30-04-2009, 21:53
Thorek is the only special character i think id turn a game down to at 2K.

That said all the hero lvl daemons SC are like 100 pts under-priced.

Thorek....

I've had 2 people walk away from my Thorek Gunline before.

Hence why he sits at my desk, gathering dust from hence forth :)

bob_the_small
30-04-2009, 21:58
how does thorek work?

O&G'sRule
30-04-2009, 22:05
The Blue Scribes. 81 f...... points? Any daemon SC to be honest.
If you wanted the most imbalanced because hes not worth half his points then GorBAD Ironclaw

O&G'sRule
30-04-2009, 22:07
how does thorek work?

Well the worst is his ability to (on a 3+) cause 2d6 S4 attacks on D3 enemy units. He is over 500 points though

nosferatu1001
30-04-2009, 22:18
Dont forget it also makes those units hit move at half speed as well, so a couple (or just one well placed) gyrocopters and theyre march blocked effective M2/3. nasty

veilwalker
30-04-2009, 22:22
Well the worst is his ability to (on a 3+) cause 2d6 S4 attacks on D3 enemy units. He is over 500 points though

Don't forget the 1/2 move and (or?) loss of flight for the following turn.
Don't forget the reroll on that 3+
He can also move d3 dwarf units rather than the magical S4 hits, which helps overcome one of their biggest weaknesses.

Doesn't he also modify the bad effect if he mishits the anvil?


He is nasty but the expression on the Thorek Ironbrow gunline when Khazrak One-eye with his trusty bray-shaman sidekick show up on turn 2, using the call of the wild herd to charge into combat is priceless, especially with his whip and the +1 str to khazrak for having a spell cast on him. It is priceless and hilarious when you proceed to unleash 20+ wounds on him with -3 to his AS.

WarlockOMork
30-04-2009, 22:22
Well the worst is his ability to (on a 3+) cause 2d6 S4 attacks on D3 enemy units. He is over 500 points though

Actualy.. 2d6 S4 on D3 enemy units, And those units Have their movement Characteristic Halved, or if they have flying lose it instead.

Thats what makes it so strong in a gun line.

O&G'sRule
30-04-2009, 22:46
Don't forget the 1/2 move and (or?) loss of flight for the following turn.
Don't forget the reroll on that 3+
He can also move d3 dwarf units rather than the magical S4 hits, which helps overcome one of their biggest weaknesses.

Doesn't he also modify the bad effect if he mishits the anvil?
AS.

Only to make the roll worse for thorek (-1 on the table). He is ridiculous vs elite armies

W0lf
30-04-2009, 23:33
lol @ thorek being over 500pts.

Hes 505... an army with him has min 7 DD aswell.

O&G'sRule
30-04-2009, 23:41
I never use magic vs dwarfs, no point

W0lf
30-04-2009, 23:45
My group refuse to list tailor as its effectivly cheating imo.

O&G'sRule
30-04-2009, 23:49
My group refuse to list tailor as its effectivly cheating imo.

I agree you shouldn't just use specificly great things at killing your opponents army, but magic vs dwarfs is a waste of points, I have 5000 points of O&Gs to choose from, so I like them to all get a game at some point, its not like I'm taking an infiltrating army or something, and I do it regardless of whether the dwarf army is specially anti magic or not, though not always . People have no problem when everyone changes their lore to lore of fire vs my troll army

LKHERO
01-05-2009, 00:07
My group refuse to list tailor as its effectivly cheating imo.

Yeah I definitely had a dude tailor his list specifically to kill me before.

It was quite the most silly thing I've ever seen.

WillFightForFood
01-05-2009, 00:10
Deleted Post

Cats Laughing
01-05-2009, 00:39
Yeah I definitely had a dude tailor his list specifically to kill me before.

It was quite the most silly thing I've ever seen.

I remember one League/Tourney where I got paired up against the local *********, who would tailor his list against you as you deployed.

I pulled out all 4 of my RBTs and put them to the side of the table off the board and left them there as his army suddenly became full of harpies and characters on flying monsters (back in the days of "flying high").

My RBTs stayed off the board as my (written the previous night and printed out from my computer) army deployed. After he lost rather badly, he complained to the organizer that I tricked him by not deploying everything I pulled out of my carrying case. All the other local gamers thought it was the funniest thing ever.

Stmr5000
01-05-2009, 00:52
Um... Is Teclis OP?

I know Kroak got curbed in the latest book, but in the last one he was REEEEALLY good.

Havock
01-05-2009, 02:03
He was also a thousand points.

Lord Dan
01-05-2009, 02:44
Thorek is the only special character i think id turn a game down to at 2K.

You would turn down a game against an OTT list? YOU would turn down a game against an OTT list.

Just one more time...

YOU?

;)

Lord-Kro-Xa
01-05-2009, 03:42
Kroak is still pretty nasty, cast his spell 6 times to an opponent locked in combat with unbreakable temple guard and that's a hurt opponent. Yes you won't cast it every time, but 2 times should still cripple whatever it hits. Skulltaker on juggernaut in 500 point warbands is stupid, other than that the characters aren't that bad unless you tailor a list towards them.

LKHERO
01-05-2009, 04:10
Kroak is still pretty nasty, cast his spell 6 times to an opponent locked in combat with unbreakable temple guard and that's a hurt opponent. Yes you won't cast it every time, but 2 times should still cripple whatever it hits. Skulltaker on juggernaut in 500 point warbands is stupid, other than that the characters aren't that bad unless you tailor a list towards them.

Kroak is good until he gets forget scroll'd LAWL.

Nicha11
01-05-2009, 05:46
Most imbalanced?

Skulltaker, the only hero in the game who can consistantly beat down lords x2 or x3 his price.

Fenrir
01-05-2009, 07:52
A bloodthirster with obsidian armour. I don't mind them if they leave this item at home, but with it, in the hands of a skilled player, they are unstoppable.

Unless you face cannons, war machines, heavy magic or all sorts of stuff.

nosferatu1001
01-05-2009, 10:25
Actually he modifies it by -1, which makes it worse. This is due to Grungi messing something up....

Thorek gunline is, however, yesterdays news. Friend took one to Devourer and, well, it got devoured....

StarFyre
01-05-2009, 10:44
I've used the new kroak a few times...he is very over priced for what he does. without the discipline for the free PD, he just can't get his spell off enough to be useful. Really no point to use him. Only against elves, he seemed to do really well due to their low T.

AGainst ogres and daemons....he wasn't very good (even with the str 5 hits).

Faced teclis twice with a generic slann list...destroyed the High elves both times....teclis isn't that great in the new book since he no longer has the ward and no longer has unlimited range for spells...

never faced dwarves before, or kairos or a bloodthirster...


Sanjay

W0lf
01-05-2009, 11:05
Lmao @ Dan.

Yes i would turn down a game vs thorek gunline. I recently played (and beat) a full Tzeentch Daemon tourny list and it was the least fun game i have ever played.

Thorek gunline win or lose is less fun then getting kicked in the nuts.

Mereclar18
25-01-2010, 11:44
I like Thorek:P Deamons have awesome special chars, but i wouldn't really know because i never play with sc but i think tyrion is also great.

Ixquic
25-01-2010, 13:22
Now that they've refaqed Dwarves and you can only use the Kraggi re-roll once a game Thorek isn't quite as broken and much more susceptible to exploding if the player wants to spam ancient powers. Having said that I've never actually lost to Thorek since the types that bring him to the table typically have no idea how to play past throwing dice. I don't like playing against that sort of army since it feels like I'm doing all the work casting spells, moving models and figuring stuff out while the Dwarf player literally doesn't move anything and just rolls dice as the various units focus fire stuff off the board. It's incredibly dull. It's the only type off army I'll tailor against since these types of players are usually smug "I'll win since I'm bringing Thorek, good luck with that" guys that don't realize relying on an OP special character isn't something to be proud of. Regardless of tailoring, I've still tabled that army in tournies where you have to use the same list for every game so it's really just a matter of how much I want to win by (for instance bringing Black Knights which can't be slowed down by Wrath and Ruin along with the regen banner).

Pretty much everything in demons is beyond the pale but the Masque is probably the worst offender. She's basically a Wood Elf alter kindred with a better ward save, faster, ASF, 1 less wound, casues fear and is ItP and a much better ability than anything he can take but for like 1/3 the cost. It's Matt Ward's magnum opus of crappy game design.

EDIT: Before I get jumped on, this isn't a "I'm better than everyone" brag post since I'm nothing special, but more of a "crappy players gravitate towards stuff that allows them a crutch" sentiment.

blackjack
25-01-2010, 14:48
Don't ban all spechial characters there are some that are just fine and several that are not worth the pionts you pay for them. For example most named chars in the Lizard book suck, The named blood thirster in Daemons is particularly worse than a non named blood thirster and he costs alot more, Throgg toll king in WOC allows for a really fun and not overpowered monster list.

Sygerrik
25-01-2010, 15:17
Thorek is bad. The Masque, Skulltaker and the Blue Scribes are worse, though. Why for the love of God is the Masque less than a Skaven chieftain with gear? That ain't right. I'd happy pay 200 points for her.

Also not a particular fan of Archaon, though I wouldn't say he's broken (he IS 685 points). The game becomes "Kill Archaon before he kills you" which is not that much fun.

EDIT: I would be very upset if my group banned special characters, because a lot of them are really fair and really fun and interesting. I don't think anyone would complain that Queek Headtaker is broken, but he's an amazing model and plays well. Similarly, Throgg allows you to run a really neat unique list, as does Crone Hellebron, and it's fun to watch Epidemius in action (although since he's a Daemon he verges on broken).

BigbyWolf
25-01-2010, 15:37
Whoa...major threadromancy here...I thought after 7 months this would have been forgotten about! ;)

SCs add a bit of colour to the game..I don't take 'em myself but the models are usually pretty good and find uses in my army as generic characters (Green Knight, Egrim Van Horstman, etc). I've got nothing agianst playing against them either, although I do prefer a bit of notice before I come up against any of the particularly nasty ones...

graymer
25-01-2010, 15:57
Thorek's ability to reroll was nerfed to once per game as per the most recent Dwarf FAQ.

Given the filth that Demons, Vampires, and Dark Elves have at the moment, I wouldn't bat an eyebrow about bringing Thorek to a GT. Local tournies and club games, it's a bit OTT.

SilasOfTheLambs
25-01-2010, 17:50
I think Graymer makes a good point: Thorek is the only thing in the dwarf codex that's really over the top. Conversely, dwarfs lack: Any monsters. Any core or special models with more than one attack, excluding unit champions. Any terror causers (except a 700-point special character which sucks). Any fear causers except potentially a 70-point BSB banner. Our only unbreakable unit has no armor whatsoever so it rarely makes it into combat. And everything costs at least 9 PPM.

Conversely, the entire Daemon list is full of epic cheese, starting with Kairos "I am two mages but only cost one slot" Fateweaver, and moving on through core magic users and 2-attack super-fast two-wound fast cav puppies. Therefore, IN CONTEXT (and with the Kraggi re-roll nerfed to once per game), I don't think Thorek is OP. However, I don't play him in friendlies either, unless somebody else is bringing special characters (it's the unwritten rule at our shop).

Maoriboy007
25-01-2010, 18:02
Don't ban all spechial characters there are some that are just fine and several that are not worth the pionts you pay for them. For example most named chars in the Lizard book suck, The named blood thirster in Daemons is particularly worse than a non named blood thirster and he costs alot more, Throgg toll king in WOC allows for a really fun and not overpowered monster list.

Vampire Counts would happily ban all special characters :)

(Honestly some of the worst in the game)

Skyros
25-01-2010, 18:08
I don't like Teclis or Skulltaker.

Thorek is only bad if the dwarf player is running a gunline. If he's trying to run an offensive army then he actually needs something like Thorek.

Empire - Ulric
25-01-2010, 18:58
The DoC Nurgle character "Epidemus" in a mono nurgle list is just insane.

The more models of your army killed by a nurgle model, the more improvements Nicodemus grants the enitre army.

Nurgle models get posion on a 5+ and finally a 4+.

Increasing bonuses to casting up to I think +3 including bounds.

Nasty.

Sygerrik
25-01-2010, 20:39
The DoC Nurgle character "Epidemus" in a mono nurgle list is just insane.

The more models of your army killed by a nurgle model, the more improvements Nicodemus grants the enitre army.

Nurgle models get posion on a 5+ and finally a 4+.

Increasing bonuses to casting up to I think +3 including bounds.

Nasty.

Epidemius is not so bad. He's not a combat monster, and Plaguebearers have crap offensive output anyways. Yeah they're hard to kill, but even with full Epidemius buffs they're not going to be slaughtering whole units anytime soon.

Epidemius seems nasty on paper, but play against him a few times. I'd rather face Epidemius than the Masque any day of the week. In fact, I would allow my opponent to take Epidemius for free if he promised not to take any other Daemon special characters. With the possible exception of Skarbrand, he's probably the worst SC in the book.

Kal Taron
25-01-2010, 21:37
Which still doesn't make him bad by any stretch of imagination. Combine him with the GUO SC and scouting Nurglings and the chances to kill some enemies soon aren't that bad. And at the end of his table he grants +5 to Nurgle spells! (The +2 and +3 are cummulatvie...)

Stronginthearm
25-01-2010, 22:25
Vampire Counts would happily ban all special characters :)

(Honestly some of the worst in the game)

eh I half agree with this, vamps wouldn't suffer at all from the SC bann but some of the chars are jsut fun, i personally am a fan of Konrad but that might be jsut me and I worship the Vlad mondel if not the rules(whats the point of a half mage half fighter? he sucks at both)

But ya mannfred and Isabel(dear god she is terrible) aren't that great, BRING BACK ZACH

BigbyWolf
25-01-2010, 22:47
BRING BACK ZACH

Personally, I'd have settled for Dieter Helsnich, Arkhan the Black, and Kemmler and Krell...

SaintofVirtue
25-01-2010, 23:59
I'll throw in my two cents. I've never heard any special character get complained about more than the Green Knight. Namely because he never seems to die and has good damage output.

Granted our group would physically attack any player that brought any Special Character like Kairos so the only experience I have fighting them was at Ard Boyz.

W0lf 1990
02-02-2010, 23:48
You would turn down a game against an OTT list? YOU would turn down a game against an OTT list.

Just one more time...

YOU?

Since i never replied and the threads been re-opened...

If i thought said game would be no fun then yes.

Currently the only thing i will refuse to play is dual hellpits. Simply the most broken model in fantasy.

zak
03-02-2010, 00:07
I don't like SC at all to be honest, but the DoC one's are far and away the worst followed by the damn Green Knight.

outbreak
03-02-2010, 00:51
I don't like special characters and around here we don't use them (unless it's one of those that accesses a new list style like skrolk and throgg do) The problem i see is some books have loads of special characters who are pretty beastie but then other books have nothing or completly overpriced guys who do nothing. I wouldn't mind playing them in casual games or whatnot but in any semi competitive game i wouldn't like them.

ChaosVC
03-02-2010, 00:56
Special characters are fun in campaign and friendly games, but imbalance for tourny and such.

Kal Taron
03-02-2010, 08:30
There's also huge differences when it comes to SCs. I mean Vampires are almost tame, WE only Drycha is good the others are rather meh etc. And then you have armies like Demons that just make you go :wtf:.

Rikkjourd
03-02-2010, 08:34
I haven't seen a single SC on the table since mid 5th edition when a guest from another gaming group brought those Robin Hood archer guys for his Bretonnia army.

AFAIK noone uses SC rules in Sweden, only the cool models as their generic counterparts.

Vermin-thing
03-02-2010, 08:38
Sludgetong from the new beastmen book. Can't stop the wounds, and it only gets worse. 1-3 nothing, 4-6 d6 no saves within 6", 7+ 2D6 no saves within 6". Per turn. O.o

*disclaimer don't have the exact rules next to me*